Passionless marriage is eating away both of us from the inside

[wheream_i]

I sense another Tiger Woods in the making.

[Spoiled]

Spoiled - your screen name, your attitude and your post are all entirely consistent. Though perhaps spoiled_deceitful_unapologetic while long, would be more accurate.

 

Strange, my MC and IC seem to agree that I have not been spoiled in years and that I spend more time doing for others. I was probably stupid for actually staying unhappy for two years in my M despite my efforts. And definitely wish I had left vs. having the A and causing so much pain to others. I am apologetic and in no way proud of my actions. My post was directed toward the initial post, some women do NOT want sex because they are NOT receiving what they need, desire, and/or have requested from their spouses. He should take that into consideration but you have a right to disagree. Not only did I tell my H what I needed, I focused on what I could do for him. I asked him "What can I do to make you happy?", wore new lingerie, initiated date nights, and more in attempt to get my needs met. I thought giving more to him would improve his desire to give me what I needed and it failed. More men should show more interest and woo wives other than time for sex and see what happens in your sex life.

[shotinthedark]

Women really get tired of men constantly harping about the sex but doing nothing for their wives. Do you sit and talk to her without the t.v. or laptop? Do you show interest in what she is reading? Have you tried watching her favorite t.v. show with her? Do you fix lunches? Do you feed the baby? Do you put her before your parents and friends? Or run every time they call you? Do you seriously encourage her to spend time with friends and/or have her activities?

 

I do all of these things. It's very tough to get her away from the TV or laptop or the chores she makes up for her self to keep her occupied to talk. I have watched her favorite shows with her, still do - and we really still have a good sense of humor together about it. I have put lunches together for taking to work, I feed the baby every morning + other times as I can offer to help. She definitely knows she comes before my parents and friends - I'd much rather spend quality time with her than friends, and my parents, as I said, are an acquired taste, even for me.

 

The encouraging her to spend time with friends or find activities she is interested in thing is where we start reaching sticky territory. She claims she's not interested in anything. She recently decided to take a photography class and she complains about it on a regular basis - she'd rather be home watching TV. We've talked about her lack of desire to have her own activities, interests, and goals to the point that she feel's I'm critical of her, that she thinks that I see her as a "directionless loser" (her words). The question I keep getting is from her is "Why does my happiness have any impact on your happiness? If you aren't happy, that's your problem. I can't make you happy, only you can make yourself happy." I personally think I'm either communicating poorly to her or we have talked about it so much that it's a raw nerve that isn't going to heal quickly.

[shotinthedark]

Also, you said you have been married 10 years and in your early 30s so this means you got married rather young. Do you ever wonder if your relationship has just run its course?

 

Did either of you date much before you got together/married? Did you get to experience adult life outside each other before your paths crossed?

 

And are there any other problems in the marriage outside of the sex issue? Are you friends, do you communicate well, love, laugh, enjoy each other?

 

I just noticed this post....

 

We've been together for 10 years, dated for 5 years, married for 5 years. Child for one of the 5 married years.

 

We're not very good friends to each other any more. MC pointed that out to us immediately. As others have made pretty clear at this point, I'm her punching bag, I come back for more. We do laugh about many things and enjoy the same things when we let the other crap fall out of the way for a few minutes.

[Agoraphobianebula]

The question I keep getting is from her is "Why does my happiness have any impact on your happiness? If you aren't happy, that's your problem. I can't make you happy, only you can make yourself happy." I personally think I'm either communicating poorly to her or we have talked about it so much that it's a raw nerve that isn't going to heal quickly.

 

I really don't think she wants YOU anymore. I'm certain that is what it boils down to. I have uttered those words to a man before and recalling what I felt back then, I remember I wasn't happy with myself but I was too depressed to do anything about it. I wasn't happy with my life, work, fiance, friends, family. I felt stuck and was only going through the motions of daily life. I took out all my anger and frustrations on my ex-fiance

 

I dated him for about 2 years but 6 months into it I already checked out mentally, emotionally, sexually, etc. However, I didn't immediately break up with him because I was also co-dependent. I had no other "prospects" outside of him. He was my habit, my sad escape from a boring existence...even though being with him wasn't particularly interesting. So I stayed and made his life miserable. He was like you OP, the sweetest, kindest guy there is. He would follow me around like a puppy dog and would give me the world if I asked. The guilt of dumping such a person for no rational reason was also a part of why I stayed with him as long as I did. But he bored me to death and I didn't hesitate to let him know that through my actions. He still got the pity sex and grudging affection ever so often but if he could have read my mind back then, he would have run from me so fast and not look back.

 

From what you have written, my experience parrallels what your wife is going through. It's a cold an callous way to treat a loved one and karma eventually came to bite me in the ass for the way I treated my ex-fiance.

 

I hate to say it but maybe you need to take the reins here and perhaps suggest a trial separation. Love her enough to give her a chance to find whatever it is she seems to be looking for out there. Love yourself enough to give yourself a chance to find happiness elsewhere. Your child will be fine, don't use him/her as an excuse to stay in a miserable marriage.

[Scottdmw]

As another note, other posters have made the statement that divorce is better for children. I don't think that's clear at all. Here's an example that says the opposite:

 

 

Studies regarding teenage and adult females, parental divorce has been associated with lower self esteem, promiscuity and greater delinquent behaviors, as well as, difficulty maintaining long-term relationships. Girls experience the emotional loss of the father directly and personally. They believe it is a direct rejection of them. Many girls attribute this rejection to not being pretty enough, affectionate enough, athletic enough, smart enough, etc.

 

On a long-term study of up to 25 years later, it was shown that when the parents first got divorced, the children reported feeling lonely, ashamed, or terrified of abandonment. In teens, half of the children became involved in alcohol and drugs. In their twenties and thirties, the women in the study had less education, decreased socio-economic status and difficulty with long-term relationships. “

 

http://www.essortment.com/all/divorcehoweffe_rhcq.htm

 

I would do some serious research before making a decision to get a divorce for the sake of your child.

 

Scott

[Spoiled]

I do all of these things. It's very tough to get her away from the TV or laptop or the chores she makes up for her self to keep her occupied to talk. I have watched her favorite shows with her, still do - and we really still have a good sense of humor together about it. I have put lunches together for taking to work, I feed the baby every morning + other times as I can offer to help. She definitely knows she comes before my parents and friends - I'd much rather spend quality time with her than friends, and my parents, as I said, are an acquired taste, even for me.

 

The encouraging her to spend time with friends or find activities she is interested in thing is where we start reaching sticky territory. She claims she's not interested in anything. She recently decided to take a photography class and she complains about it on a regular basis - she'd rather be home watching TV. We've talked about her lack of desire to have her own activities, interests, and goals to the point that she feel's I'm critical of her, that she thinks that I see her as a "directionless loser" (her words). The question I keep getting is from her is "Why does my happiness have any impact on your happiness? If you aren't happy, that's your problem. I can't make you happy, only you can make yourself happy." I personally think I'm either communicating poorly to her or we have talked about it so much that it's a raw nerve that isn't going to heal quickly.

 

Sounds like you are putting forth great efforts. I commend you.

Hopefully MC and IC will help discover what truly is going on with your W. Very unfortunate. Do your best to seek the professional help and not fall into the mess of an A like I did.

[GroupFitness]

As another note, other posters have made the statement that divorce is better for children. I don't think that's clear at all. Here's an example that says the opposite:

 

 

Studies regarding teenage and adult females, parental divorce has been associated with lower self esteem, promiscuity and greater delinquent behaviors, as well as, difficulty maintaining long-term relationships. Girls experience the emotional loss of the father directly and personally. They believe it is a direct rejection of them. Many girls attribute this rejection to not being pretty enough, affectionate enough, athletic enough, smart enough, etc.

 

On a long-term study of up to 25 years later, it was shown that when the parents first got divorced, the children reported feeling lonely, ashamed, or terrified of abandonment. In teens, half of the children became involved in alcohol and drugs. In their twenties and thirties, the women in the study had less education, decreased socio-economic status and difficulty with long-term relationships. “

 

http://www.essortment.com/all/divorcehoweffe_rhcq.htm

 

I would do some serious research before making a decision to get a divorce for the sake of your child.

 

Scott

 

Yeah but where are the studies on people like me who also despite parents divorce, grew up to be normal, sane, well-adjusted and succesful members of society? And there are tons of us out there with the divorce rate hovering around 50% or more.

 

With every choice, there will always be pros and cons.

[Scottdmw]

Yeah but where are the studies on people like me who also despite parents divorce, grew up to be normal, sane, well-adjusted and succesful members of society? And there are tons of us out there with the divorce rate hovering around 50% or more.

 

With every choice, there will always be pros and cons.

 

The point of the study is to look at a large population, not an individual case, which doesn't prove anything.

 

In your case, you could never be sure that you wouldn't have been better still if your parents hadn't gotten a divorce. Maybe there are so many people right now that are somewhat hurt by divorce that we have defined normal down, “in pain from divorce” seems normal. That's why it is important to do a long-term study over a broad population and control the variables as best you can.

 

Even with good studies this is a tough question to answer, and the studies are somewhat politicized. No one likes to feel they hurt their children by getting a divorce, or that they themselves may have been hurt. No one wants spouses to be forced to choose between their own wants and their children’s wants, so maybe it’s easier to believe they don’t have to choose, that there is a win-win answer. My only purpose here was to encourage the OP to not automatically believe the idea that divorce is better for the children, which is very suspect based on the evidence I’ve seen. If the subject is important to him the thing to do would be for him to do his own research and decide who he wants to believe.

 

Scott

[mem11363]

Spoiled,

Your MC and IC know you way better then I do. So I imagine they are right and I am wrong.

 

As for men not listening - and not treating their wives well - I agree that is a causal factor in many bad marriages. At a certain point - it is natural, fair and understandable that the wife loses her desire to connect with her husband.

 

For every marriage where sex stops due to negative male behavioral issues, there is a marriage where the wife isn't bothering to make the effort sexually simply because she is a bad wife. Think about it - there are likely about an even number of bad husbands and bad wives. The specifics of their misbehavior are different, but the reality is that in those marriages there is a primary source of misery in the marriage, it is not even close to a 50-50 split between the spouses.

 

Sounds like you were in one of those early on and you did everything you could to get him to make it right and he didn't make the effort.

 

 

 

Strange, my MC and IC seem to agree that I have not been spoiled in years and that I spend more time doing for others. I was probably stupid for actually staying unhappy for two years in my M despite my efforts. And definitely wish I had left vs. having the A and causing so much pain to others. I am apologetic and in no way proud of my actions. My post was directed toward the initial post, some women do NOT want sex because they are NOT receiving what they need, desire, and/or have requested from their spouses. He should take that into consideration but you have a right to disagree. Not only did I tell my H what I needed, I focused on what I could do for him. I asked him "What can I do to make you happy?", wore new lingerie, initiated date nights, and more in attempt to get my needs met. I thought giving more to him would improve his desire to give me what I needed and it failed. More men should show more interest and woo wives other than time for sex and see what happens in your sex life.

[Spoiled]

Spoiled,

Your MC and IC know you way better then I do. So I imagine they are right and I am wrong.

 

As for men not listening - and not treating their wives well - I agree that is a causal factor in many bad marriages. At a certain point - it is natural, fair and understandable that the wife loses her desire to connect with her husband.

 

For every marriage where sex stops due to negative male behavioral issues, there is a marriage where the wife isn't bothering to make the effort sexually simply because she is a bad wife. Think about it - there are likely about an even number of bad husbands and bad wives. The specifics of their misbehavior are different, but the reality is that in those marriages there is a primary source of misery in the marriage, it is not even close to a 50-50 split between the spouses.

 

Sounds like you were in one of those early on and you did everything you could to get him to make it right and he didn't make the effort.

 

I agree. Sounds like Shotinthedark's wife is not making any effort. Once my H made no effort, I stopped making efforts which was the most detrimental to our M. Neither doing anything to please the other. The misery has to begin with one.

[Dhanna]

First off, you just had a baby a year ago. I realize a year seems long, but for the woman whose body, hormones, lack of sleep and mood are still out of whack, a year isn't long at all.

 

You need to consider what it is like for your wife. Suddenly she has this creature that can only survive if your wife is utterly selfless. She likely gives everything to your child: energy, food, encouragment, etc. Your wife is TIRED. She is OUT OF ENERGY. She doesn't FEEL SEXY.

 

Sex should not be your focus. Taking care of her should be. She needs help getting ALONE time. She needs reminders of who she is seperate from being a mother. She likley needs help around the house. Help with the baby (not to assume you don't help, but most men tend to leave the bulk of baby work up to the mother).

 

Your wife probably fantisizes of a night of sleep where there is no disturbance. She probably fantisizes about having a nice outfit that doesn't have baby puke or poop on. She doesn't feel good about her body, so sexy langerie only brings up her insecurities.

 

Sex isn't THE relationship. It is a part of it. And at certain stages, it has to take a back seat. You may be making your wife feel like she is failing you because your pressing for sex and she doens't want it.

 

If you want to love your wife. You need to take care of her. Buy her flowers, compliment her. Take on 50% of baby duties. Take on 50% of household duties. Don't complain that your sex life is failing, recognize that you may be trying to live the life you had with her PRE-baby. That life is over.

 

You have a child. This is your new focus. And caring for your child's mother is the most important thing you can do as a father. Make sure she has as many nights out with the girls as you have with your friends. Make sure she has time to be creative, to take a bubble bath and time to be alone. ALONE. not when the baby naps - I mean ALONE.

 

Loving Sex for most women begins in the heart. It begins with feeling cared for, nurtured and encouraged to bloom. When you rub your wife's feet, do it because you love her- not because you hope it leads to sex. If you are present with each act of love - you will help your wife heal from the truama of childbirth and the shock of being a mother. You need to consider what your wife went through as the most intense biological, emotional and spiritual shift in her life. Way more than what you went/are going through.

 

 

But STOP pushing for sex. Just stop. And your threat to seek sex with another woman is an insult to love, your daughter, your wife, your sister, your mother, your grandmother, etc.

 

You need to wake up and stop being so selfish. There is no triangle of love. Love is dynamic and it changes over time. NOw is the time for you to become a MAN. If you need sex, use your hand. If that doesn't work - you need to figure out what it is in your life that YOU are MISSING in YOURSELF that you are filling SEX with. This is your issue. You are not being a good husband or father right now. Someday your daughter will be in her mother's shoes. How would you feel if your baby girl was stressed, tired, emotional, wounded and her husband was pushing PUSHING for "passion" - would you feel he would be justified to have an affair?

 

Give me a break. Wake up.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Dhanna

[mem11363]

Dhanna,

Read his post. This has been going on for a long time. The baby just made it a little worse. See the quote from the OP below.

 

I see this differently. This guy married someone he was not really sexually compatible with, and she is now traversing the typical sexual staircase that afflict many marriages. And both genders are offenders in this downward spiral it is not solely a female thing.

- Married - the lower libido LL partner says to themself now I can stop making so much effort in bed

- After a child - the LL spouse says - good a child to focus on - even less effort required in bed since the child can be an excuse for fatigue and also makes a divorce more painful/less likely - BOTH men and women in the LL role play this game

 

The sad thing is that often the LL spouse uses a lot of deception to avoid making their HL spouse happy. Eventually this ruins the relationship even if the people continue to cohabit a residence.

 

We need to do a better job educating people that a HL/LL marriage is a tricky thing - and unless the HL spouse brings an awful lot more to the table they are likely in for a very frustrating life.

 

Sex is 10 percent of the relationship when it is good, and quickly becomes 90 percent if it is bad.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I find my wife very attractive, and she claims she finds me attractive as well. In that first year we were all over each other. After about the first year of being together though, the majority of our fights have been about sex and passion - basically there is no passion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

First off, you just had a baby a year ago. I realize a year seems long, but for the woman whose body, hormones, lack of sleep and mood are still out of whack, a year isn't long at all.

 

You need to consider what it is like for your wife. Suddenly she has this creature that can only survive if your wife is utterly selfless. She likely gives everything to your child: energy, food, encouragment, etc. Your wife is TIRED. She is OUT OF ENERGY. She doesn't FEEL SEXY.

 

Sex should not be your focus. Taking care of her should be. She needs help getting ALONE time. She needs reminders of who she is seperate from being a mother. She likley needs help around the house. Help with the baby (not to assume you don't help, but most men tend to leave the bulk of baby work up to the mother).

 

Your wife probably fantisizes of a night of sleep where there is no disturbance. She probably fantisizes about having a nice outfit that doesn't have baby puke or poop on. She doesn't feel good about her body, so sexy langerie only brings up her insecurities.

 

Sex isn't THE relationship. It is a part of it. And at certain stages, it has to take a back seat. You may be making your wife feel like she is failing you because your pressing for sex and she doens't want it.

 

If you want to love your wife. You need to take care of her. Buy her flowers, compliment her. Take on 50% of baby duties. Take on 50% of household duties. Don't complain that your sex life is failing, recognize that you may be trying to live the life you had with her PRE-baby. That life is over.

 

You have a child. This is your new focus. And caring for your child's mother is the most important thing you can do as a father. Make sure she has as many nights out with the girls as you have with your friends. Make sure she has time to be creative, to take a bubble bath and time to be alone. ALONE. not when the baby naps - I mean ALONE.

 

Loving Sex for most women begins in the heart. It begins with feeling cared for, nurtured and encouraged to bloom. When you rub your wife's feet, do it because you love her- not because you hope it leads to sex. If you are present with each act of love - you will help your wife heal from the truama of childbirth and the shock of being a mother. You need to consider what your wife went through as the most intense biological, emotional and spiritual shift in her life. Way more than what you went/are going through.

 

If these steps don't work. Go to counseling.

 

But STOP pushing for sex. Just stop. It will shut your wife down more and more and everytually you will have no connection left.

[Dhanna]

...

 

It sounds like he is stomping the passion right out of his wife. Ironic.

[Dhanna]

mem, my points still stand. This guy is being a jerk. And if they were not compatable, why did they wait 9 years and a baby later to figure that out?

 

This is a classic case of guy chooses not to think about her feelings. So many new parents go through this. Good enough reason for me to never have a kid.

 

For being in 2009, we are still very gender-biased about parenting. MOther gets the brunt of the work, guilt from the spouse and attitude from the kid when it hits puberty.

 

No thanks.

[Dhanna]

Mem, you are totally missing the point. Relationships are dynamic - not fixed. They go through changes, as we go through changes. Having a baby is truamatic. And the fact that so many guys on here are trying to make this wife seem like she is playing games, is childish.

 

Sex needs to be something that comes as a result of acts of love. It cannot be required - but I tell you what, when a woman feels obligated to have sex, no one wins.

 

What this guy needs to do is focus on his wifes needs. He is the one playing games. "I will love you if you please me." "If you don't please me I will find a woman who will"

 

Love is about caring for the whole person. Passion ebbs and flows. It is not constant and anyone who thinks it is, has not been in a long term relationship. If this guy or any guy can't get passed his own selflish obsession with sex, then the wife has valid reason to leave him. Marriage is about companionship - not lust. Passion is a percentage and that percentage is contingent on environment, happenings in life and how each partner treats the other. This guy is acting like a spoiled brat. This woman does not need two babies to placate.

[Dhanna]

So true. Very interesting thread.

 

Women really get tired of men constantly harping about the sex but doing nothing for their wives. Do you sit and talk to her without the t.v. or laptop? Do you show interest in what she is reading? Have you tried watching her favorite t.v. show with her? Do you fix lunches? Do you feed the baby? Do you put her before your parents and friends? Or run every time they call you? Do you seriously encourage her to spend time with friends and/or have her activities? I know women who H's say that but then make them feel guilty or bad for wanting to do something without them. She may have tons of anger and/or resentment built up toward you. Or may not feel love and affection from you, may not receive any ego boost from you to make her feel more sexy and want to wear the lingerie and be loud in the bedroom. If you do none of those things for her, the last thing she wants to hear is you wanting sex.

 

 

Thank you thank you thank you! Love is about listening and a willingness to care for our partners even when it seems inconvienient. We get stuck in habits and forget how to woo each other and after babies come, men too often fail to PARTNER and take on 50% of the burden. Women get tired of trying to please everyone and eventually shut down. Thank you for posting this!

[Dhanna]

Shot, your wife sounds like she has POst Partum Depression. Its pretty serious. Any form of depression (something I suffer from) can make any act of self-love or joy seem like a chore. DOn't be critical anymore - it is not your job to point out flaws she will likley use to make herself feel worse. If your MC has not noticed that she is depressed and needs medical help - you need a new MC.

 

I am sorry to be so pissed at your original post. I just find the sex thing to be very annoying and only makes things worse. You need to get her help. PPD is a hormonal and emotional issue - something doctors can help with. Bring it up to your MC and don't do it in a way that seems critical. You need to take the microscope off her. Let her have some space. But, find loving ways and words to encourage her to get the help she needs.

 

And don't have an affiar or talk about sex anymore. Once she is healthy again, your spark will return. As her husband, you need to help her get help.

 

Good luck

 

I do all of these things. It's very tough to get her away from the TV or laptop or the chores she makes up for her self to keep her occupied to talk. I have watched her favorite shows with her, still do - and we really still have a good sense of humor together about it. I have put lunches together for taking to work, I feed the baby every morning + other times as I can offer to help. She definitely knows she comes before my parents and friends - I'd much rather spend quality time with her than friends, and my parents, as I said, are an acquired taste, even for me.

 

The encouraging her to spend time with friends or find activities she is interested in thing is where we start reaching sticky territory. She claims she's not interested in anything. She recently decided to take a photography class and she complains about it on a regular basis - she'd rather be home watching TV. We've talked about her lack of desire to have her own activities, interests, and goals to the point that she feel's I'm critical of her, that she thinks that I see her as a "directionless loser" (her words). The question I keep getting is from her is "Why does my happiness have any impact on your happiness? If you aren't happy, that's your problem. I can't make you happy, only you can make yourself happy." I personally think I'm either communicating poorly to her or we have talked about it so much that it's a raw nerve that isn't going to heal quickly.

[mem11363]

I 100 percent agree that he needed to address this 9 years ago. And not by stamping his feet.

 

I agree that still - in 2009 most mothers do get the brunt of the work and that depending on how you slice up responsibilities that may or may not be fair.

 

I do think LL people struggle to grasp how HL people FEEL when sex is scarce. This is not about orgasm quality. The combination of porn and sex toys makes having high quality orgasms way easier and cheaper via self stimulation then via another person.

 

So sex - for the HL person is about feeling a type of connection.

 

Without being in this guys house with a camcorder we have no idea how he treats his wife. Clearly he does not know how to elicit a highly sexual response from her. And that may well and truly be about him.

 

I suggest you read some of the female posts about how they have simply lost their desire for their men. The men are nice, helpful etc. Desire just slowly faded. Clearly not the case here.

 

In this one - I would tend to bet the guy is the issue since the problem came up in one year.

 

Just recognize that many LL spouses - sometimes men/more often women, truly see sex as optional in marriage. The flavor of post that is least helpful is to tell the male: Just be a better husband, DO WAY MORE CHOREPLAY and it will somehow work out.

 

I will tell you why that rarely works. The simplest conversation in the world goes like this:

Wife: I desire you, and I want to have sex with you. But I am angry and resentful you are not helping me enough. More choreplay more nookie - that simple. Now step up or get used to performing a regular manual override in the bathroom.

Husband: I happen to have a pad and pen in hand. I have written my preliminary list of choreplay - what am I missing.

 

Those people do exist - they don't typically deadlock as the problem and answer are clear cut.

 

His move - which he needed to make 9 years back - was not to say: I am angry you aren't having enough sex with me - that message makes a LL person even less excited about sex. He needed to gradually learn his woman. Amazing what people will tell you they feel you won't judge them, feel you really deeply love them. And sometimes what they tell you opens the door to paradise.

 

There were women I dated you couldn't unlock - well to be fair - I was not skilled enough to get in their heads. They were very non-sexual people - at least with me LOL. No way I would have married someone like that.

 

 

mem, my points still stand. This guy is being a jerk. And if they were not compatable, why did they wait 9 years and a baby later to figure that out?

 

This is a classic case of guy chooses not to think about her feelings. So many new parents go through this. Good enough reason for me to never have a kid.

 

For being in 2009, we are still very gender-biased about parenting. MOther gets the brunt of the work, guilt from the spouse and attitude from the kid when it hits puberty.

 

No thanks.