To single OW/OM out there, ask the right question!

[jennie-jennie]

It's not only a question of your "empathy" (or otherwise), it's also a question of his free will. You cannot force him to love his W, or to love her exclusively. While you can choose not to reciprocate his attention or feelings, you can't turn his feelings for you off like a tap. That is entirely his choice, and implying that it's your responsibility to make him do so is simply naive and misguided.

 

I couldn't agree more.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't find it helpful to keep listing these names as if there is some sort of hierarchy of who was the better OW/OM.

 

This was posted in response to a series of post explaining the "raw" and "out of control emotions" exhibited by some/most in this forum. So would it be helpful to name their names as well?

 

Other than the late Lyssa who was actually engaged to marry her guy, I can't see why to include the second list as the point was about married affair couples, not those that avoided marriage for whatever reasons.

 

I think the stats would bear out the fact that most affairs just don't end in marriage, no matter how anyone tries to skew it.

 

(Is this really so off-topic as to be a t/j? If so, sorry guys. Its just so interesting to see how people who once had affairs always separate themselves into groups based on how the affairs ended as if one affair was better than the other because of the way it ended. IMO, the ends never justify the means.)

 

I have to stand up here in defense of OWoman. Never have I seen her post anything condescending towards OW still in an EMR or OW otherwise not ending up with their MM. I believe OWoman was just trying to prove a point that there are more than 2 or 3 OW on LS who have ended up with their MM.

 

In fact I always read OWoman's posts with great interest. I feel that she is one who certainly has not "betrayed her class" when she married her MM. To me there is always much to be learned by reading her posts.

[NoIDidn't]

I have to stand up here in defense of OWoman. Never have I seen her post anything condescending towards OW still in an EMR or OW otherwise not ending up with their MM. I believe OWoman was just trying to prove a point that there are more than 2 or 3 OW on LS who have ended up with their MM.

 

In fact I always read OWoman's posts with great interest. I feel that she is one who certainly has not "betrayed her class" when she married her MM. To me there is always much to be learned by reading her posts.

 

I am not going to discuss OWoman with you, as I think that is rude to her.

 

There are more than 2 or 3 that have posted over the years, but I was talking about people that are currently posting. Old Europe does post every so often, but not usually in here anymore.

 

Accept it or not, there does seem to be a hierarchy between OW/OM. I am not the only one that sees this. In fact, wasn't it your MM that made the snide comment about GEL now being the "wife" as if that's why she said what she said, and then you brought it here. It really seemed like you and he were saying that she was demoted now that she became her now-H's W.

 

This is becoming a huge thread jack. I truly apologize hopeless4u. Maybe we should start a thread about this hierarchy?

[jennie-jennie]

I am not going to discuss OWoman with you, as I think that is rude to her.

 

There are more than 2 or 3 that have posted over the years, but I was talking about people that are currently posting. Old Europe does post every so often, but not usually in here anymore.

 

Accept it or not, there does seem to be a hierarchy between OW/OM. I am not the only one that sees this. In fact, wasn't it your MM that made the snide comment about GEL now being the "wife" as if that's why she said what she said, and then you brought it here. It really seemed like you and he were saying that she was demoted now that she became her now-H's W.

 

This is becoming a huge thread jack. I truly apologize hopeless4u. Maybe we should start a thread about this hierarchy?

 

That remark about GEL has long since been twisted into something it never was.

 

The distinction some of us OW make is between reformed OW and other OW. Reformed as meaning they are now very easy to mistake for a BS because they have adapted the BS' perspective. You don't have to have married your MM or any other man for that matter to have taken on that perspective.

 

The hierarchy you are speaking of, NID, is something I certainly never have experienced here on LS. Perhaps it is the way the BS view us that you are speaking of?

[NoIDidn't]

That remark about GEL has long since been twisted into something it never was.

 

The distinction some of us OW make is between reformed OW and other OW. Reformed as meaning they are now very easy to mistake for a BS because they have adapted the BS' perspective. You don't have to have married your MM or any other man for that matter to have taken on that perspective.

 

The hierarchy you are speaking of, NID, is something I certainly never have experienced here on LS. Perhaps it is the way the BS view us that you are speaking of?

 

I doubt the hierarchy view is solely the image of people that have been BSs before. I will have to start a thread to gauge it, honestly.

 

But you are very right about the reformed vs unapologetic OW hierarchy. Yet, I still think its more than that. You might not have experienced it here on LS, that might be true for this point in time. But I have seen it first hand IRL. Two cousins fighting over the same MM, but the one that got pregnant by him was the *stupid* one, in the eyes of everyone. Or the OW that married the preacher she was in the affair with. She's practically become untouchable since her H uses his pulpit to bully everyone into silence (not my church, LOL). Its stuff like that.

 

I will start the thread and figure out how to word it to not be so offensive.

 

It may just come down to women putting ourselves in hierarchies no matter what.

 

ETA - You are probably right about the GEL comment. Its just the way it came off at the time. I don't think anyone twisted it, its just the way it came off from the words you passed along.

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks, NID, for trying to understand where I am coming from, GEL comment and all.

 

Just one last remark: I don't see the reformed OW and the other OW (I don't think all of them are unapologetic) as parts of a hierarchy. I see them as two categories of OW who hold dissimilar views.

[adiaz]

Very true White Flower. I have never questioned that he was honest with me when I asked a question but I do now see how the OW can be as betrayed as the BW/BS. I truly believed him when he said being with me was easy because he could be honest!

I had no reason to think he was lying to me, why would he, I know everything!

LOLZ!! The other woman can never be as betrayed as the wife. period.

[OWoman]

I don't find it helpful to keep listing these names as if there is some sort of hierarchy of who was the better OW/OM.

 

Nope - nothing to do with hierarchies, rather to do with numbers. Those were the ones that sprang immediately to mind, out of... not sure how many "regular" posters (which I suppose would depend on how one defines that, how many one would get).

 

(sorry - too quick to post - just saw the subsequent discussion afterward!)

Edited November 25, 2009 by OWoman
idiocy

[OWoman]

Accept it or not' date=' there does seem to be a hierarchy between OW/OM. [/quote']

 

There is? Forgive my density, but which are supposed to be "better"? The ones who "sold out" (by getting M) or the ones who "lost out" (by not getting M)?

 

Apologies for prolonging the t/j, but I come from an anarchist tradition, so hierarchies are foreign beasts to me. (I did look for the "hierarchies" thread before posting this, but couldn't spot one, so continued here - apologies!)

[OWoman]

I don't see the reformed OW and the other OW (I don't think all of them are unapologetic) as parts of a hierarchy. I see them as two categories of OW who hold dissimilar views.

 

I'd agree with this. I'd go so far as to draw the analogy with former smokers - some people who stop smoking become rabid anti-smoking activists, beating their chests and brandishing their pasts like a bible - "look at me, I used to be a filthy smoker just like you, but I managed to kick that foul and filthy habit - and if I could, you can!"; while others stop smoking quietly, sometimes even regretfully, remembering the pleasures it brought them, while acknowledging the health benefits of having stopped. Neither is "better" - but the latter is more likely to get a hearing from current smokers than the former.

 

(Which is not to suggest that I'm saying As are toxic, like cigarettes, or that no one should ever engage in them. It's an analogy about behaviour, not about content.)

[White Flower]

There is no heirarchy in the OW/OM forum just as there is none in any other forum.

 

I'm wondering if it was an idea stemming from the fact that those involved in As longer than LS newbees in As tend to give advice and seem to have an edge or are advanced in the A situation. In that case, I can kind of see it; however, no OW feels that they are better than another here.

[jennie-jennie]

There is no heirarchy in the OW/OM forum just as there is none in any other forum.

 

I'm wondering if it was an idea stemming from the fact that those involved in As longer than LS newbees in As tend to give advice and seem to have an edge or are advanced in the A situation. In that case, I can kind of see it; however, no OW feels that they are better than another here.

 

My thinking is that it stems from some BS's and reformed OW's love of putting forth the idea that firmly saying "I will not participate and be the OW" has in some cases like GEL's given her success in the way that she ended up with her MM. This goes hand in hand with their wish that all OW leave their MM alone.

 

For the MM to leave the marriage I believe however that in most cases it takes a lot more than determination on the OW's part. Being determined in this way is much more likely to make you end up without the MM, which is fine if you are prepared to accept that.

[White Flower]

My thinking is that it stems from some BS's and reformed OW's love of putting forth the idea that firmly saying "I will not participate and be the OW" has in some cases like GEL's given her success in the way that she ended up with her MM. This goes hand in hand with their wish that all OW leave their MM alone.

 

For the MM to leave the marriage I believe however that in most cases it takes a lot more than determination on the OW's part. Being determined in this way is much more likely to make you end up without the MM, which is fine if you are prepared to accept that.

Along the same lines I think that many BS believe that an OW can steal a MM which is so off base. A man will never be convinced to do anything he doesn't want to do himself. It takes free will. Thus, she must express what she wants and be prepared to leave and he has to want it badly enough to not let her go. Once again, communication and of course, desire to act on it.

[NoIDidn't]

You guys are putting it on BSs and reformed OW and couldn't be more wrong about how I reached my conclusion on the hierarchy thing.

 

Believe me, its only the OWs actions and words that gave rise to this conclusion. It is certainly tied in to the outcome of the affair, but not in the way that one might think.

 

I am still working on my wording, and the holiday break is also impeding things, but its coming.

[jennie-jennie]

You guys are putting it on BSs and reformed OW and couldn't be more wrong about how I reached my conclusion on the hierarchy thing.

 

Believe me, its only the OWs actions and words that gave rise to this conclusion. It is certainly tied in to the outcome of the affair, but not in the way that one might think.

 

I am still working on my wording, and the holiday break is also impeding things, but its coming.

 

In that case it will be very interesting to read your thread, because I don't know what you are talking about if "the hierarchy" is supposed to come from the OWs actions and words on this forum.

[NoIDidn't]

In that case it will be very interesting to read your thread, because I don't know what you are talking about if "the hierarchy" is supposed to come from the OWs actions and words on this forum.

 

Also remember that I said it wasn't just from this forum before posters start getting their hackles up.

[jennie-jennie]

Also remember that I said it wasn't just from this forum before posters start getting their hackles up.

 

OK, that I can understand, NID, because I have experienced what could be called an hierarchy on another OW forum. The owners of that site and the moderators seem to hold certain ideas, almost like a doctrine, about EMRs. If you differ in opinion, you do feel like you are considered unknowledgeable and lower in the hierarchy. And the long term members who agree with the "doctrines" are widely respected and defended, thus higher up in the hierarchy.

 

I believe that is a major reason why I prefer Loveshack. Here although our opinions might differ widely, I feel that we are all equals.

Edited November 27, 2009 by jennie-jennie

[ksana]

OK, that I can understand, NID, because I have experienced what could be called an hierarchy on another OW forum. The owners of that site and the moderators seem to hold certain ideas, almost like a doctrine, about EMRs. If you differ in opinion, you do feel like you are considered unknowledgeable and lower in the hierarchy. And the long term members who agree with the "doctrines" are widely respected and defended, thus higher up in the hierarchy.

 

I believe that is a major reason why I prefer Loveshack. Here although our opinions might differ widely, I feel that we are all equals.

 

Hi Jennie,

 

I'd be interested to know about this other forum for OW. What is it called please?

 

I'd also be interested to know what this "almost like a doctrine" is for OW (if you feel able to summarize)? Is it something like: "the only thing you must do is go NC to either end the A or force the MM to choose"? I see from your posts, which I have read, that you have not done these so wonder if this is why you might have felt ostracized.

 

Going NC was more or less what happened in my situation and the MM chose to stay married.

[jennie-jennie]

Hi Jennie,

 

I'd be interested to know about this other forum for OW. What is it called please?

 

I'd also be interested to know what this "almost like a doctrine" is for OW (if you feel able to summarize)? Is it something like: "the only thing you must do is go NC to either end the A or force the MM to choose"? I see from your posts, which I have read, that you have not done these so wonder if this is why you might have felt ostracized.

 

Going NC was more or less what happened in my situation and the MM chose to stay married.

 

I can't say the name, that would not feel right towards the other forum. I am a member there as well, and do participate there.

 

The "doctrine" is not at all about NC, that sounds more like the doctrine of the BS of LS, if there is one.

 

The doctrine would be more like (and this is just my take in a short form): Either accept that he is not leaving his wife and stay in the affair and be happy or get out.

 

In my opinion you can stay in the affair and be happy and still want the MM to leave his wife.

[hopeless4u]

Thanks to everyone for the posts but I think we may have slightly gone off the thread so just wanted to re post the original:)

 

 

So it breaks your heart to be without them, of course it does, YOU/I love them.

I have been 'in love' for far to long and I have been looking for something to make me 'see sense', well I got it yesterday thanks to LS helping me ask the right question.

For those who don't know my story, OW sucked in by MM, he's not a bad person but he is still a MM and I've been with him for 2years!

I love him more than I love myself, obviously.

I found out yesterday by asking the right question(read previous threads/posts) he is still being physical with his wife, something I was lead to believe wasn't happening (again previous posts) so my advice and the reason for the post is ask the question and make sure he answers it correctly and doesn't tell you what you need to hear. My MM has never lied to me(so he says) and I do believe that but he has always answered my questions(as they are asked) and I have finally realised I asked the wrong questions or maybe the right questions just in the wrong way thinking it made things ok but he WILL answer the way that suits HIS needs, whether that be him feeling better for what he's doing or his guilt for how you are feeling.