moimeme Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Bark, your philosophy is 'no matter what a poster has done to cause his/her own problems, hold that person's hand and coddle them'. Mine is 'people create their own misery sometimes, and you do them no favours by not pointing out how they may be causing their own grief'. Never the twain shall meet. We have just had a very eloquent thread on which you, too, bemoaned the fact that spouses no longer have the loyalty required to stick through the'worse' part of marriage. So which is it? Bail when it gets tough or stick it out and be loyal? This poor man is suffering his own hell of depression. God forbid you should ever be so afflicted, for I should think you'd raise all holy hell if your wife dumped you or had an affair when you were sick with something you couldn't help having. In fact, here, in your own words: Great points, cdn. There has been a seismic shift in expectations for marriage, and a concomitant loss of patience. To me, one of our greatest problems is what I call "premature divorce"--cutting and running at the first hint of rough weather. As long as people believe that happiness is just around the bend, and that they have a right to such happiness no matter how unrealistic or harmful the exercise of this right is, "for better or worse" marriage in the traditional sense does not stand a chance. We can lecture and hector on these Boards and elsewhere until the cows come home and it won't make a difference. The new marital calculus involves pleasure, happiness and self-fulfillment. Once that ends, the marriage, along with the "no fun" spouse, are expendable in favor of someone whom the seeking spouse believes will provide all three. Marriage, in short, must now be "fun." So now really, Bark. Which is it??????????????? Such fine and noble a stand you take - but when it comes time to apply this grand set of statements, where are you? Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 it must be amazing to be physic enough to know someone else's philosophy. is that something deepak taught you? bark knows ardea. and, as friends do, he stood up for her, because that's what friends do, regardless if it makes them look righteous or morally correct. i admire consistency and loyalty as action, rather than self-inflated rhetoric. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 it must be amazing to be physic enough to know someone else's philosophy Um. It's in black and white. Silly me for assuming that people write what they believe, I guess. If I were psychic, I would have gleaned that all this splendid wordsmithing bore no resemblance to what Bark actually believes. he stood up for her, because that's what friends do So? Ardea isn't a friend, and even if she were, I'd feel sorry for her husband and not take sides with her against him, since presumably I'd have friend to both. Indeed, in my own divorce, I insisted that all our friends not take sides because the issue was not one that anyone was to blame for. However, she asked for opinions from strangers and that is mine and I feel no compunction to mince words or pretend that I believe other than the standards I hold myself to to please some folks who choose their ethics from day to day and whim to whim. The difference is that if you see me state a position, you can call me on it any time you don't see me live up to my stated position; you know exactly where I stand and you can trust it. Including that people should marry with the intent of being there to support one another through illness, mental or physical. And so a person who I get involved with knows that I firmly believe in this and will require of myself that I hold to this standard. Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Ardea, You have nothing to be ashamed of in admitting to a feeling which you know is extremely negative. It is because you value marriage that you have stayed in a relationship when you feel such antipathy towards your husband. This is a credit to you. Hearing that you are somehow disloyal to feel this way is not constructive - there is absoluely nothing you can do to stem such a basic emotion as revusion - so if it's advice you can't follow just ignore it. It's hard to hear what is close to hatred being expressed and that accounts for the negative reaction - it must be even harder to feel it. You are doing a heroic job staying in a marriage to support your spouse when you feel this way. Better to say it to us than to him. Please do continue to seek advice if it helps you stick at it until things get better. You need to make sure that you look after your own emotional health too though which I fear for at the moment. So do ask your husband to do as much as he can as long as by so doing it does not further erode his self esteem. Do seek time out of the marriage so that you come to it refreshed and better able to cope (weekends/holiday away with friends). Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Ardea, do you have any idea of the number of spouses who are repulsed at the physical appearance of their mates? I'm willing to bet the number is large. Very few people admit to this , unlike you. Few of us possess your courage and candor. To tell the world that you find your spouse physically and emotionally repellent brings the wrath of the virtuecrats down upon you. Decent, loving, sensitive married individuals would never, ever have such distasteful feelings--let alone admit to them. I mean, you're married, you're not expected to be human. Last time I checked, imperfect humans marry, and carry their imperfections over into the married state. Being married is not a state of grace. Married people ought to be permitted to express their flawed selves without invoking the self-righteous wrath of LS posters. Quite frankly, I'm in shock and awe of the hardened set of utopian expectations that some posters impose on the married . Married people, like unmarried people, lie, cheat, have bad thoughts and are occasionally mean and selfish. The harsh, inflexible expectations for marrieds held by some posters--who may not be married themselves--border on the surreal. Normally, I shrug it off, but not this time, not this poster. Enough. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I don't believe love and revulsion can coexist. To me, that any 'revulsion' exists is a clear indication that love has died, for were there love, it would temper the 'revulsion' with empathy and turn it to something less dramatic and contempt-filled. How, exactly, would you feel if you knew your partner felt 'revulsion' for you? Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I admit I'm quite shallow when it comes to marriage....or any other relationship. If it doesn't work for me....I'm getting the hell out. I'm not a cat with nine lives. I have only the ONE life....and I intend to enjoy it. I don't think less of ANYONE who admits their marriage is less than what they bargained for. As for the weight gain thing....if I married someone who turned into SHAMU....his sex life with me is OVER! It's not just a matter of looks...it's a matter of self respect. Link to post Share on other sites
meanon Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 No I agree love/revulsion can't co-exist at the same moment in time but I have talked to people who have felt like this when a marriage was in crisis and it has subsequently recovered to the extent that it is a loving relationship. Moimeme, In reply to your question: Personally I'd feel awful - I think Ardea (who refers to her thoughs as crappy and crummy) may also feel awful. Knowing the the thoughts are awful doesn't mean they cease to exist. I guess we may have fundamentally different views about what may cause such feelings. Maybe you think it is something in the character of Ardea which is why you feel it's helpful to criticise her committment to her marriage, whereas I think it may be a result of the situation/relationship she is in so think she's demonstrating committment as far as she is able by staying in a marriage she would rather be out of. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Maybe you think it is something in the character of Ardea which is why you feel it's helpful to criticise her committment to her marriage No, not at all. I do worry that the situation has deteriorated too far. I have talked to people who have felt like this when a marriage was in crisis and it has subsequently recovered to the extent that it is a loving relationship Really? Well then maybe I'm too naive about this. It just seems like 'revulsion' is a mortal blow. If I'm wrong, that's great, though. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I wouldn't feel revulsion if my spouse was in a car accident, suffered an illness or was in a war and came back home disfigured. That is a situation they couldn't help. However, just to keep 'growing' in fat content because of a lack of self control to the point of no longer turning your spouse on....just isn't acceptable. If a marriage is a union of two people.....then there becomes an obligation to be the best you can be for the other half. I'm not talking a few pounds....I'm referring to someone who totally changes their original figure. I also wouldn't be attracted to dirty fingernails or a man who 'spits' on the sidewalk. Sure, these are only 'outer' characteristics....but I think they are representative of the person who is within. If I married someone who was one way....then they changed completely.....I wouldn't feel I have an obligation to continue being with them in ANY capacity. They defaulted the contract. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 moi, are you actually married, yourself? Link to post Share on other sites
Author ArdeaCandidissima Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Thanks to all for your comments. I read and consider each and every one. Bark is right, these are feelings that I can't air ANYWHERE else than Loveshack - even with my closest friend. So I don't mind the jabs. They're well-intentioned and I am grateful just to have a place to speak my heart, black as it is. I am surprised that posters here question my devotion. Perhaps you have not read my history of nearly 20 years of being married to and caring for this man. Most of those years were OK, with ups and downs. Then his depression worsened and the last 3 years have been quite hard, with really almost no ups at all. My husband has never been a male model, but he used to smile and be friendly and happy. I used to be able to talk to him. With his condition, he no longer smiles and I can say almost nothing that won't set him off. I have toned down my self, my voice, my humor, my life just to avoid triggering a rage or a storm of tears. AND I get no sex...or affection...and I have to watch him cry, or drink, or scream, or mutter, night after night. I can't defend myself, since I feel almost totally indefensible. Check out my avatar - that's me. But I will say, if you have someone to hold onto tonight who smiles at you and kisses you back, please treasure that person. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Damn Ardea....I'm just soooo sorry! I wish there was something I could do to brighten your life. All I can do is send you a great big cyber hug!!!!! [color=red]<<<<<<<ARDEA>>>>>>>[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I can't defend myself, since I feel almost totally indefensible. Check out my avatar - that's me. But I will say, if you have someone to hold onto tonight who smiles at you and kisses you back, please treasure that person. Re-make your life, Ardea, if that's what you choose. Your friends here are watching your back. I too extend to you a big old cyber-hug!!! Link to post Share on other sites
coldheart Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 All B.S aside, you should seek the help of professionals in this particular case. If money is an issue, there are state agencies that can provide assisatnce if need be. I don't however think you should take the advice of internet PHD's when dealing with so many serious issues. If your husband is severely overweight, an alcoholic, has depression, and is unemployed, cheating on him or just up and leaving may be enough to push him over the edge. You've held on for 20 years, a few more weeks or months of serious committment to at least help him deal with his own issues can't hurt. If you're going to leave him fine, but at least leave with clean hands and a clear conscience. I don't know about anyone else, but I would hate to leave a situation not knowing whether or not my spouse is going to put a gun in his or her mouth, because I left them at their weakest point. Better safe than sorry. Sex isn't going anywhere, besides I think guilt free sex is a lot better. exhaust all of your options first, then if leaving is your only option, do what you must. Just remember it won't be as long as it's been. All you other internet shrinks can choke on that. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Sure, these are only 'outer' characteristics....but I think they are representative of the person who is within. If I married someone who was one way....then they changed completely.....I wouldn't feel I have an obligation to continue being with them in ANY capacity. They defaulted the contract. The guy's depressed. I don't know if you have ever been depressed. If not, thank your lucky stars and pray you never are. When you are in the throes of depression, you have no motivation to care for yourself whatsoever, and you certainly are incapable of mustering yourself to do things for the sake of others when the worst of it hits. Ardea, I'm with coldheart: Just remember it won't be as long as it's been But I will say, if you have someone to hold onto tonight who smiles at you and kisses you back, please treasure that person. For what it's worth, Ardea, there are many, many LSers who don't have that. I'd say the majority, even. Many haven't had it for much longer than three years. I hope with all my heart that his recovery will begin soon for both your sakes. Link to post Share on other sites
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