10 year old "playing" with visitation

[tinktronik]

This is also immature to burden a child with the weight of your broken heart.

 

If his choice is not to go, you should strive to make him feel at ease because it's a tough decision.

 

This was said because it is something I knew he would respond to. A child should know that certain behaviors or actions would hurt his parents, it is part of the reason why children hold standards for their parents. I said this because it is the truth, if he didn't come see me, my heart would break.

[Ariadne]

This was said because it is something I knew he would respond to. A child should know that certain behaviors or actions would hurt his parents, it is part of the reason why children hold standards for their parents. I said this because it is the truth, if he didn't come see me, my heart would break.

 

Even if it is true, you are putting guilt in him.

 

Now his heart will be torn if he doesn't go.

 

He should make his decision freely, knowing that you are ok either way, even if you really wished he'd go with you.

 

You can even provide with alternatives so that he doesn't feel bad, like, I'll go for a week in August etc.

[deux ex machina]

Thanks for your post. It is very strange to be a non-custodial mom. People look at you like you must be the worst mother ever when you don't have your kids full time, or that there is something abnormal if you haven't thrown yourself from a bridge from the anguish of being away from your children. I don't think you ever feel "right" without them but you do adjust eventually. It's been about 8 years now for me.

 

It's not so much that my ex screws with the legal visitation, he follows it to the letter. But he will do things like when I give him the dates I am coming will say "Oh joy! Can you come for an extra 2 days early so me and my wife can go do X thing?" and when I confirm and show up 2 days early [after driving 1300 miles and juggling 1000 business commitments to make it all work] he has made other arrangements and I am sitting 1300 miles away from home twiddling my thumbs waiting until the weekend. For 2 years now on my birthday when I have showed up he has re-arranged the kids extra curricular activities to fall on my birthday [they had both times been scheduled for a different day] so that instead of celebrating my birthday, I am tied up running he kids to and fro literally all day and spending the day across the room from my ex who is attending [part of the arrangement is that the kids must make all extra curricular when with either of us]. Or that the cell phone mins. are only free after 9 his time [when the kids are gearing down for bed] so I have to call then, but it is either 11 or 1 am where I am. Just really dumb stuff. But in the main, I get every min. of actual court alloted visitation.

 

...

 

I guess this too set off a worry about if his Dad will allow him in his teens to try to blow off visits with me, my gut says yes. But I guess I should just worry about that then.

 

The part I bolded I find very disturbing, considering what is going on with your son.

 

Does your ex pull this on your birthday, or other times as well?

 

If this is a regular occurence, I hope you get a lawyer and fight the requirement that you must take the children to activities when you are there. The time you have with them is precious.

 

As far as communication (the cell phone stuff), how often, long, and a schedule when you get to communicate with your children should be put in writing as well, since apparently this is how your ex wants to be.

 

It's unfortunate, you should be able to count on the ex to accomodate you - but it doesn't appear that will happen unless the Court compels him to do so.

[tinktronik]

The part I bolded I find very disturbing, considering what is going on with your son.

 

I do as well.

 

Does your ex pull this on your birthday, or other times as well?

 

So far it's been specifically on my birthday. I don't know if it is some strange pull to see me on my birthday or just a disruption. He does do things like forget to pack important things so that I have to turn around and drive back [an hour both ways] to pick them up; but I have headed that off. He also attempts to draw me into "important" conversations when I come to get the boys; I am to the point where I tell him to email me.

 

When we were married he was very much jealous of time I took away from him to attend to the children and many of these things strike me as attached to that. He has some very controlling behaviors and basically runs his wife and mother's lives in minute detail and I think it drives him nuts that I am out of his sphere of control. He does occasionally "pop up" in strange places when I am out and about with the kids during my time with them.

 

If this is a regular occurence, I hope you get a lawyer and fight the requirement that you must take the children to activities when you are there. The time you have with them is precious.

 

It is not so regular that I have felt it necessary to get the courts involvement specifically due to these circumstances, but it is becoming more of a headache in the last 2 years or so.

 

As far as communication (the cell phone stuff), how often and long you get to communicate with your children should be put in writing as well, since apparently this is how your ex wants to be.

 

I agree. It is time to do this. In the next year they will most likely have a couple of states that they reside in and I will have to wait for a 6 month marker to get jurisdictional recognition to be heard. But you are spot on with this.

 

It's unfortunate, you should be able to count on the ex to accomodate you - but it doesn't appear that will happen unless the Court compels him to do so.

 

Yeah, it just seems strange to me. I know tons of divorced couples and they just work it out. Why not us? We all love the kids.

[tinktronik]

Even if it is true, you are putting guilt in him.

 

Now his heart will be torn if he doesn't go.

 

He should make his decision freely, knowing that you are ok either way, even if you really wished he'd go with you.

 

You can even provide with alternatives so that he doesn't feel bad, like, I'll go for a week in August etc.

 

A, I'm sorry you feel this way. We disagree clearly on how to raise children. I believe children have parents for a reason. You believe children's desires should be catered to as you have expressed in all of your posts regarding your own son, to the point of purchasing him illegal drugs. My son should know that his actions are sometimes hurtful to other's and that making a statement like "Either you move to Virginia or I won't come see you in the summer" is not the way to get what he wants. Clearly the statement says "Mom, I want you closer to me all of the time." That is the truth of it. I can understand that and I have to make an adult decision that he may not be able to understand all the facets of. The statement was not "I don't want to come see you for the summer", it was "Do this thing or I will do something that I know will hurt you." It is just like something a 10 year old would say to get what he wants.

[Ariadne]

"Ten year old me, does not not have to go to Vegas..."

 

"I already bought the tickets......"

 

"At that age you just kind of accept it"

 

Words of my son...

 

he reminded me that at that age he didn't have much of a choice and that recently he started not going. He is 19 now.

 

Haha

 

And now he is reminding me that I'd tell him:

 

"You know what time it is?........... What? Time to go to Vegas.... What?!? Yes, you are going tomorrow"

 

He says he never really wanted to go but it was something he had to.

 

So, maybe I'm forgetting how much I made him do stuff and he put up with it then.

 

[deux ex machina]

...So far it's been specifically on my birthday. I don't know if it is some strange pull to see me on my birthday or just a disruption. He does do things like forget to pack important things so that I have to turn around and drive back [an hour both ways] to pick them up; but I have headed that off. He also attempts to draw me into "important" conversations when I come to get the boys; I am to the point where I tell him to email me.

 

When we were married he was very much jealous of time I took away from him to attend to the children and many of these things strike me as attached to that. He has some very controlling behaviors and basically runs his wife and mother's lives in minute detail and I think it drives him nuts that I am out of his sphere of control. He does occasionally "pop up" in strange places when I am out and about with the kids during my time with them...

 

I think you've gotten to the heart of the issue.

 

The ex will find out you are fully prepared to protect your rights and those of your children. Not out of wanting to be adversarial...you simply want to make all of the expectations clear and get everyone on the same page. Nothing wrong with that.

 

You inner voice is telling you what's what - it's a great thing you are listening to it.

 

You can do this, be strong, and anticipate f*ckery. Just be prepared to handle it with the dignity you have shown thus far, and all will go well.

 

I wish you the very best.

[silverfish]

"Ten year old me, does not not have to go to Vegas..."

 

"I already bought the tickets......"

 

"At that age you just kind of accept it"

 

Words of my son...

 

he reminded me that at that age he didn't have much of a choice and that recently he started not going. He is 19 now.

 

Haha

 

And now he is reminding me that I'd tell him:

 

"You know what time it is?........... What? Time to go to Vegas.... What?!? Yes, you are going tomorrow"

 

He says he never really wanted to go but it was something he had to.

 

So, maybe I'm forgetting how much I made him do stuff and he put up with it then.

 

 

Yep I remember the whole scenario, and also telling my mum / dad at various points i wanted to live with the other one and didnt want to see them. I also told my step dad and mum on a regular basis that they couldn't do whatever it was because they weren't my REAL mum / dad. It's all pretty standard hurtful child behaviour really.

I remember as I got older feeling massively inconvenienced and resentful about the whole thing, it wasn't that I didnt want to see my Dad, i just felt like, I have my own life - you disrupted mine enough and why should I miss out on the party or whatever it was.

I don't know what the answer might be, but leave it for now. Maybe think for the future about taking a holiday but inviting a friend of his or something, I think there is a lot of un natural pressure on both sides when you are forced into 'quality time' with people

[Ariadne]

I remember as I got older feeling massively inconvenienced and resentful about the whole thing, it wasn't that I didnt want to see my Dad, i just felt like, I have my own life

 

Yes, that was exactly the attitude.

 

As he got older he was harder to convince and words didn't cut it anymore.

 

At that point we backed off, but he still goes a couple times a year.

[Tayla]

Ariadne, Thank you for your open response to the poster. You spoke volumes about the reality of parenting and at which point one needs to "guide" the child to make decisions/choices.

 

Been there , done that so when words of wisdom speak to a person going thru it, a level of relating and keeping it real need to transpire. You did both. Sometimes though , just as with children, we need to step back and see the person falter before they see the light.

 

 

One of the greatest delusions I've seen span parenting time is the adults not being adults and separating the PARENTING ROLE they maintain thru life against the *SPOUSE* that they were. A HUge leap must happen. A United Front needs to happen as parents to guide the kids to a somewhat healthy lifestyle. Its not the distance of miles any child miss's. Instead they GET that the parents ( they dont know the parents as anything but those roles) are fighting and its not healthy by any means.

 

Can someone though clarify who would be arrested if a non custodial parent doesnt exercise the priveledge of visitation?

[tinktronik]

Ariadne, Thank you for your open response to the poster. You spoke volumes about the reality of parenting and at which point one needs to "guide" the child to make decisions/choices.

 

Been there , done that so when words of wisdom speak to a person going thru it, a level of relating and keeping it real need to transpire. You did both. Sometimes though , just as with children, we need to step back and see the person falter before they see the light.

 

 

One of the greatest delusions I've seen span parenting time is the adults not being adults and separating the PARENTING ROLE they maintain thru life against the *SPOUSE* that they were. A HUge leap must happen. A United Front needs to happen as parents to guide the kids to a somewhat healthy lifestyle. Its not the distance of miles any child miss's. Instead they GET that the parents ( they dont know the parents as anything but those roles) are fighting and its not healthy by any means.

 

Can someone though clarify who would be arrested if a non custodial parent doesnt exercise the priveledge of visitation?

 

No one gets arrested if the non-custodial parent does not exercise their visitation. The court can offer visitation but cannot force it to be used.

[wife]

No one gets arrested if the non-custodial parent does not exercise their visitation. The court can offer visitation but cannot force it to be used.

 

 

For a working single non-custodial parent I could see how hard it would be to exersize visitations or to co-parent/meet eye to eye with a controlling custodial parent who obviously feels they have the upper hand because they have the boys more, or for whatever reason may it be bad (using them as pawns against you) or good, (believing in his heart he is a good role model)... Custody can be so messy and create so much anger and hate between parents. It's nearly impossible to have everything set up perfectly so both parties win. In the end, it's the children that need to win.

 

I know it breaks your heart if he won't come see you this summer. I think you allready got your answer a few posts back when you agreed it would benifit to talk about it with him. I don't see how picking your OP apart would make anything better. If anything it'll cause headache and fighting and you'll end up the victim of a "your a horrible mom" thread.

 

Call him up, talk to him Maybe he'll negotiate.

 

Also I too believe that the law doesn't allow children under 12 (or 16 some states) choose for themselves for a good reason. They don't make logical decisions (okay some do in some cases) but children don't realize how their decisions will effect them except for their moment's wish of the here and now.

 

Anyway, that being said, remember to let him know your happiness does not depend on him! Boys are happiest when they know their mommy is happy and okay and it's not their responsibility to make mom happy. Show him you're strong, capable, you're okay and he will admire you for that. It won't hurt him or make him feel you don't love him! I promise!

[Tayla]

No, it is ultimately not his choice not to go. It is the court's choice. There is a reason they do not let 10 year olds decide on how they live their lives A, because many would make choices to not ever go to school again too.

 

That's just it, there is no decision to be made; it was made when we divorced.

 

I, however, would like to have him feel secure in coming and it to be his desire to do so.

 

Actually the court gave parents the Visitation Rights which can be exercised or not. Thus why I asked the earlier question on being arrested....

 

And it would behoove some folks to understand that in some cases yes children as young as 8 are heard by the courts on visitation modification.

Ask a Child advocate assigned by the courts.

 

That being said, I stand by the concept that both PARENTS need to toss out their personal grudges and gear up as their role in parenting is to establish a solid relationsip with the children. Kids really dont like it when parents bad mouth the other, because they love both Mom and Dad. Working together is a team effort that both sides need to agree what the guidelines are. If the son really does become resistant on visiting then get to the root of it, and work towards him accepting that as the parent you support his resistance so long as he supports your open arms at any time he changes his mind Moms' are great as that skill!!

[deux ex machina]

Actually the court gave parents the Visitation Rights which can be exercised or not. Thus why I asked the earlier question on being arrested....

 

And it would behoove some folks to understand that in some cases yes children as young as 8 are heard by the courts on visitation modification.

Ask a Child advocate assigned by the courts.

 

That being said, I stand by the concept that both PARENTS need to toss out their personal grudges and gear up as their role in parenting is to establish a solid relationsip with the children. Kids really dont like it when parents bad mouth the other, because they love both Mom and Dad. Working together is a team effort that both sides need to agree what the guidelines are. If the son really does become resistant on visiting then get to the root of it, and work towards him accepting that as the parent you support his resistance so long as he supports your open arms at any time he changes his mind Moms' are great as that skill!!

 

tinktronik is doing an excellent job at keeping the children out of the parent's "stuff".

 

 

From the opening post:

 

...

 

I can't tell my 10 year old that my biggest reasons for not living across town are that his father already screws with my visitation and that when we did live across town I got to see them less than I do flying around the country because there was more stress between their Dad and me and Dad withheld whatever he on paper did not HAVE to give. Dad has been telling him that if I lived in town that I could have hem every weekend and some after school. But I know from experience that this would not be the case.

 

...

 

 

Absolutely agree with you, Tayla, as far as keeping mum on one another - I don't think this is an issue with the OP...unless I missed something (entirely possible!).

[tinktronik]

tinktronik is doing an excellent job at keeping the children out of the parent's "stuff".

 

 

From the opening post:

 

 

 

 

Absolutely agree with you, Tayla, as far as keeping mum on one another - I don't think this is an issue with the OP...unless I missed something (entirely possible!).

 

No Deux Ex, you did not miss anything. I have not ever said a bad thing about my ex to the kids. I try to even keep any hesitancy out of my tone of voice when a dad discussion comes up. I cannot force my ex to play nice with me, other than court ordered structure, but in the past this has just seemed to make him less hesitant to behave himself where I am concerned.

I really am doing my best to get along in a sitch that is patently odd against my friendly nature.

 

My oldest son loves me and I him. I treat him well and devote every ounce into him that I am allowed. I think this latest forceful way of saying I love you may be both related to him needing and wanting me around and him growing into his father's personality trait of coercion or force. I think this statement threw me off guard so much because it smacked of dad's techniques. I have done the normal angry son tantrums, I have been told I am "no kind of mother" by my middle son while he was throwing a giant fit and that "I don't love you" by my youngest during a time out and assorted other things. But this statement from my oldest struck something in me that deeply concerns me.

 

My ex beat me and stalked me and controlled everything about my life, isolating me completely, for years before I was finally able to "escape"; and only then without our children. I have grown into a woman I admire and have come to accept my role in our sons lives as what it is while jumping hoops and putting up with the same strangeness in encounters with my ex. I think what I heard in my oldest reminded me of my ex. I know lots of children my boys age say things like this, but I suppose I am hyper aware. In the meantime I am planing a short talk with my oldest on my next visit with all of the good points highlighted.

 

Me and the ex have told the boys thus far that if we make decisions as to them living with me it is something we will decide on and then talk to them about it. I may talk to the ex about not talking to the boys about any of us making moves unless it is something we have discussed as their parents as well.

 

There is a lot of "dad worship" from my oldest. He has so many times made a decision and gotten his dad's okay beforehand [usually regarding me] where his dad then says no and my oldest covers the whole thing by saying "Oh that must not be what he meant." If my younger two say things about my ex doing this or doing that [usually it is something that may be not okay with raising kids/ they say things in innocence, not in a negative way] my oldest will realize what they are saying and talk over them or tell them to "shut up." I worry that a lot of this pushing from my son is coming from Dad's statements about what he would do if I lived closer.

Edited November 21, 2009 by tinktronik

[deux ex machina]

I was just thinking about you.

 

...I have grown into a woman I admire and have come to accept my role in our sons lives as what it is while jumping hoops and putting up with the same strangeness in encounters with my ex...

 

You aren't the only one that admires you.

 

You have every reason in the world to feel good about the way you are handling things.

 

I kept thinking of you...getting provoked again and again...and yet keeping it all under wraps for the sake of your children...

 

I'm blown away, reading your post.

 

You have such sensitivity and insight into what is going on -- those kids are lucky to have you.

 

Listen to that inner voice.

 

Please keep us updated with how things are going. Hugs.

[fooled once]

At 10, he doesn't get to decide if he is coming or not. Part of what is wrong with so many kids today is parents have allowed them to make decisions that they shouldn't be.

 

He is 10. He will do what he is told. Period.

 

And that means he goes on visitation. Tough tooties if he doesn't like it.

 

i can't image if I ever let my son dictate to me - at 10 - what he would and wouldn't do.

 

It sucks about the extra curriculars and how you guys agreed the kids MUST attend them. I am not sure I would have agreed to that being a NC parent.

 

I am sorry your ex is such a prick and likes to play those games.

 

I was a custodial mom whose ex rarely took his visitation. My H was a non custodial dad whose ex wife screwed him regularly on visitation and allowed my SD to make decisions at 12 on whether or not she would come to visitation. It was hard on my H, but eventually, we figured out other ways for visitation besides the standard e/o/w stuff (and we lived in the same town).

 

One thing I will always make sure of, if I was you, would be to make sure all visitation stuff is in writing. If you arrange to be there 2 days early, get it documented. That way, you have it if you ever need it.

 

Do you think you will ever be custodial?

 

I think you are doing a great job!! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you telling your son "I will be sad if you don't come". For heaven's sake, you aren't telling him that you will commit suicide. You are relating your emotions.

 

This is what is so wrong with so many kids today - being allowed to do and act and say whatever they want without consequences. So many kids today aren't punished, aren't disciplined and have no respect for authority.

 

It is really sad because these self centered immature 'kids' will one day be running this country.

 

If I popped off to my parents, I was disciplined. If my son popped off to me, he was disciplined. I expected no grade below a C unless there was a big issue, he had chores, he had responsibilities and he wasn't allowed a cell phone until he was driving. He wasn't spoiled - but he was loved (and still is loved) with my entire heart. He left here about an hour ago after spending all day with me and his step father on Thanksgiving. we had a great day and he is a good kid. It is because I set standards and expectation and he knows it. I didn't let him make his own decisions at 10.

 

Hang in there - I think you are doing a great job!

[tinktronik]

Well I called and had a chat with my big boy. I said I want to talk to you about what you said, "If you don't move I won't come visit you in the summer any more."

 

I told him this is what I heard:

 

1) If you don't live where I want you to live, I will do something to make you regret it and not visit you. And then I told him what I thought was he was trying to say:

 

2)I want you to live closer because I miss you when you aren't here.

 

He said that what he said was number 1 but what he meant to say was number 2. I explained that it was not a good or fair way to tell me what he wanted and that it really upset me and made me worried.

 

We talked about how important it is to tell me what he wants and to try to make it clear so we don't miscommunicate. He said that he does want to come and see me for summer and just wants to see me more so he thought that it might work if he said number 1, because he knew it would upset me and maybe scare me into living closer and that it makes him frustrated that I do not live closer.

 

We talked again about the reasons why I am where I am and decided that if the issue is revisited me and Dad will be the ones to revisit it [so that he does not have to feel like he has to barter with me] and then we would talk to him and his brothers about it; but that it is okay to talk to me anytime he wants about the way he feels.

 

He admitted he is a little bit scared about the move and that everyone's schedule is crazy getting ready for the move and that this made him feel nervous and that he was worried since everything was changing he would not get to see me as much as he does. We talked about all the places that Dad could be going after Virginia and how I would still be able to come and see him regularly [as usual] as long as he is in the US.

 

He did say also that his Dad and SM are fighting a lot and that he is worried about them breaking up again and that it is scary. I tried to comfort him and just let him know that I would always be there for him and anything going on between Dad and SM does not change the way Dad and I love him. He said he is worried about Nana being left behind in CA [ this has happened with every move where Dad moves and it takes Nana a year or so to get things together to follow along] I just said that Nana would do what Nana always does and we laughed about that.

 

He asked that I send him a trac phone so that he could stay in close contact through the move and make sure we did not "lose" each other. So I put one ion the mail.

 

I think the conversation went well and that we worked through an important issue with our discussion of communication. Hopefully now that we know what you say and mean are not always the same thing, we will be more open to talking in depth about which is which as he grows older.