donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Give "no attention" to a child scribbling on your walls with indelible marker.
sally4sara Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 No one, adult or child, when they're in a full blown temper tantrum, can be effectively reasoned with. There are other ways to bring them down, rather than negative attention. No attention brings them down pretty fast. I would never ignore my son (or anyone I cared about) if he were in distress. That is cruel IMO. A 3 year old child can get a steam going they cannot control. Leaving them in that state IS lazy.
Trialbyfire Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I would never ignore my son (or anyone I cared about) if he were in distress. That is cruel IMO. A 3 year old child can get a steam going they cannot control. Leaving them in that state IS lazy.And smacking them is for their own good, right?
sally4sara Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 And smacking them is for their own good, right? I never smacked my son. I think you're getting confused over what I'm saying. Take a roll of toilet paper and cut it in half so it looks like it has a small child's butt under it. Cover it with a plastic sheet. Cup your hand and hit it with your cupped hand with the same strength you would perhaps clap your hands to a song. Then you'll get what I'm talking about. It is a much louder noise than the motion would imply on a padded fleshy area. The child feels the shove of the motion and hears the loud noise. There is no pain. I'd let you spank me under those circumstances all day TBF. I wouldn't even charge you for the privilege.
Trialbyfire Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I never smacked my son. I think you're getting confused over what I'm saying. Take a roll of toilet paper and cut it in half so it looks like it has a small child's butt under it. Cover it with a plastic sheet. Cup your hand and hit it with your cupped hand with the same strength you would perhaps clap your hands to a song. Then you'll get what I'm talking about. It is a much louder noise than the motion would imply on a padded fleshy are. The child feels the shove of the motion and hears the loud noise. There is no pain. I'd let you spank me under those circumstances all day TBF. I wouldn't even charge you for the privilege. But what lesson are you teaching a child when you spank them? The lesson is, that if you're doing something for the "good" of the person, it's okay to hit them.
donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Note, particularly, this phrase: "The outcomes of corporal punishment compared unfavorably with alternatives only when used too severely or as the primary disciplinary method." http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/nztabconts.47.pdf This is EXACTLY what I've been alluding to. People think of it as an "all or nothing" kind of thing. You don't spank EVERY time you discipline. And when you do, you don't wail on your child. I could provide many MANY other findings by highly qualified experts to support this. They're out there. I just gave one example.
sally4sara Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 But what lesson are you teaching a child when you spank them? The lesson is, that if you're doing something for the "good" of the person, it's okay to hit them. At that age and in that state of mind, they are incapable of learning anything. They have worked up a level of emotion they don't know what to do with and they are in distress. I'm not even talking about the slap across the face given to hysterical women in old B/W movies, but it is the same idea. It isn't even something for them to reflect on. It is just a way for them to back away from the emotion they've called up and cannot quit because they have yet to learn how to control their emotions at such a young age.
donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 But what lesson are you teaching a child when you spank them? That undesirable consequences follow bad behavior.
Trialbyfire Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 At that age and in that state of mind, they are incapable of learning anything. They have worked up a level of emotion they don't know what to do with and they are in distress. I'm not even talking about the slap across the face given to hysterical women in old B/W movies, but it is the same idea. It isn't even something for them to reflect on. It is just a way for them to back away from the emotion they've called up and cannot quit because they have yet to learn how to control their emotions at such a young age.Then give them no attention when they're worked up to that level. That's the methodology that was used on both my nephews and pretty much every child within my extended family unit. This technique has worked well for my friends who've incorporated it. It's worked for me, with my nephews and any children I've had the pleasure to babysit. It's a consistent application that ensures that temper tantrums aren't rewarded by attention of any kind. None of these children display problematic behaviour with extended temper tantrums. They learned quickly and early in life, that dramatic out-of-control behaviour, gets you less than nothing.
sally4sara Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Then give them no attention when they're worked up to that level. That's the methodology that was used on both my nephews and pretty much every child within my extended family unit. This technique has worked well for my friends who've incorporated it. It's worked for me, with my nephews and any children I've had the pleasure to babysit. It's a consistent application that ensures that temper tantrums aren't rewarded by attention of any kind. None of these children display problematic behaviour with extended temper tantrums. They learned quickly and early in life, that dramatic out-of-control behaviour, gets you less than nothing. Well it is a bit too late. I chose to not let a 3 year old in distress try to manage emotions he could not control on the few occasions he found himself that worked up. I chose to pop him on the rear end rather than ignore him. It has never happened since just before he turned 4 so it been unnecessary for the last almost nine years. He will turn 12 next month. He is delightful, very bright, and not prone to the childish cruelty or greediness I see most other children exhibit. In third grade he was asked to help younger disabled children get to their buses after school everyday and he did so for the two years after that as well. He helps around the house and even has a small job walking a neighbors dog 3 days a week. He has bought me gifts "just because" out of his own earnings. All while having never got a grade lower than a B in his accelerated curriculum. Tonight he is one of the kids visiting the White House to view stars on the lawn with our president. When he visits a friend's house, never once has one of those parents had anything to say except "Your child is wonderful; you're so lucky." Seeing as how I sported black eyes to school as a child and ended up running away before I turned 18, I cannot see myself allowing your untried opinion make me feel less proud of the job I've put in as a mother no matter how much you want to think I've screwed up.
Lizzie60 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 It's easy to "reason with a child under the age of 2" if you are NOT the one with them day in and day out. Children are a lot less likely to NOT listen to someone they aren't used to. That was easy. Try being an actual parent once and THEN check back in. I agree that it's no use to 'reason' with a child under 2.. they are still a baby... waaayy too young to 'reason'... I am against any form of physical punishment, even spanking.. IMO.. there are soooo many other ways to 'control' a child... to have to use physical punishment only shows how weak a parent is... but I can understand that parent are human.. and sometimes it gets very frustrating...
donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I get told great things about my son's behavior by total strangers as well, in addition to high school staff. A woman he sat next to on his airplane ride back from visiting his dad over the summer said, "You have a wonderful son. You must be very proud." And I am. I SO suck at parenting.
donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I agree that it's no use to 'reason' with a child under 2.. they are still a baby... waaayy too young to 'reason'... I am against any form of physical punishment, even spanking.. IMO.. there are soooo many other ways to 'control' a child... to have to use physical punishment only shows how weak a parent is... but I can understand that parent are human.. and sometimes it gets very frustrating... Yes - you cannot reason with a child that young. And I agree that spanking is not a good method for teaching anything. However, when a defiant child refuses to listen, a quick swat on the behind can be very effective. It has nothing to do with weakness, however. That's only when you hit out of anger or frustration. We're talking about a decision made NOT in the heat of emotion. I even gave a quick thought to the decision to pop my son quickly when his mouth got the best of him. It wasn't an act in retribution.
Lizzie60 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 We can all argue until ... whatever.. I am against spanking.. even if it's not in the heat of the moment.. because if it's not.. you'd find something else..and not spank... IMO... There are so many things a parent can use to make a child 'understand'.. first the consequence HAS to be in direct correlation with the 'bad action' in order to be efficient... A spank can give the parent the illusion that it was efficient because the child will instantly stop the bad behaviour (and not in all cases).. but he hasn't 'learned' anything.. Let's say the spanking does nothing.. then what?
donnamaybe Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 We can all argue until ... whatever.. I am against spanking.. even if it's not in the heat of the moment.. because if it's not.. you'd find something else..and not spank... IMO... There are so many things a parent can use to make a child 'understand'.. first the consequence HAS to be in direct correlation with the 'bad action' in order to be efficient... A spank can give the parent the illusion that it was efficient because the child will instantly stop the bad behaviour (and not in all cases).. but he hasn't 'learned' anything.. Let's say the spanking does nothing.. then what? Well, all I can say is I have raised THREE children, and the very FEW times I have employed the use of a swat on the butt, it HAS worked. That's just the way it was.
Trialbyfire Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 Well peaceful guy, as you can see, this is a controversial topic on LS. Hopefully, it's given you the answers you need to help you formulate your opinion. I'll only add that there are over 20 countries worldwide who've banned spanking. My country is working its way to this, as well. As it stands, it's against the law to strike a child under two or a teenager. We're working towards protecting all children from this. The last I heard, the anti-spanking legislation has passed the House of Commons. I don't know where it stands, as at now, considering how much political upheaval there's been that's been fracking with our legislature. Having said all this, my perspective is non-personal. What members have done with their own children, has nothing to do with me. It's their life and their children.
Meaplus3 Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 this is an offshoot of the thread titled "something iver wondered". what age and what behaviors do think its good/okay to spank? i know this is a sensitive topic, but i don't feel super strong about it.. im more looking for your insights. like i said in the other thread, i think that there are appropriate times for it, but i think it would suck.. thoughts? Not a fan of spanking at any age. Time outs when they are little. And tough love as they grow. That's my choice of discipline. Mea:)
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) well peaceful guy, as you can see, this is a controversial topic on ls. Hopefully, it's given you the answers you need to help you formulate your opinion. I'll only add... lol Just one more thing, though...... LW Edited October 8, 2009 by donnamaybe
Trialbyfire Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) lol Just one more thing, though...... LWAs a suggestion, how about you add to the discussion, instead of slagging other people's posts? Your personal attacks just get tiring and are non-productive. Edit - Mea, it's great to see a parent who's applied the different methodology of not spanking! Edited October 8, 2009 by Trialbyfire
Meaplus3 Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Edit - Mea, it's great to see a parent who's applied the different methodology of not spanking! Thanks. As a child who got spanked with a wooden paddle and when I was mouthy got a bar a soap, I swore I would never do those things to my children. Not that my mom was a real meanie, but back then this seemed to be a very popular form of discipline. Well, it did not teach me much except that paddles sting.. and soap tastes awful. By using the time out method, it forces the child to think about the behavior in question. My kids seem to benefit from this. Now, as for the tough love, I Have not gotten to that point yet, but I have seen other parents apply this method as there children age and it seems to be a very effective way to act concearned and at the same time have your point be taken in a serious fashion. Mea:)
Trialbyfire Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Thanks. As a child who got spanked with a wooden paddle and when I was mouthy got a bar a soap, I swore I would never do those things to my children. Not that my mom was a real meanie, but back then this seemed to be a very popular form of discipline. Well, it did not teach me much except that paddles sting.. and soap tastes awful. By using the time out method, it forces the child to think about the behavior in question. My kids seem to benefit from this. Now, as for the tough love, I Have not gotten to that point yet, but I have seen other parents apply this method as there children age and it seems to be a very effective way to act concearned and at the same time have your point be taken in a serious fashion. Mea:)My parents used tough love on us. We were never allowed to be quitters and were held responsible for our behaviours. For example, if we wanted something and they declined our request, we couldn't come back begging, crying, whining or with anger. If we tried any of that, they would just shut down on us. If we came back with some good, hard rational reasons why it was necessary, they would reconsider. Sometimes we got our way, other times not, if they didn't feel the reason(s) was valid enough. Temper tantrums got us less than nothing.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 As a suggestion, how about you add to the discussion, instead of slagging other people's posts? Your personal attacks just get tiring and are non-productive. Ironically enough, I did add to this discussion, as did other posters, but not in agreement with you. We were then insulted by you, using terms like "domestic violence" and saying parents who ever give a child a swat on the rear are taking the easy way out. Hopefully the OP, however, will take everyone's viewpoints, including those that disagree with mine, into consideration and come to their own conclusion regarding this sensitive issue.
sally4sara Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 As my son is nearing twelve and on the verge of puberty and hormonal haywire, he is beginning to display some teen angst and selective inattention. For those who Have Never Had children, this is when they cannot be counted on to remember any given instruction that does not completely delight them and sigh over anything that does not. After a rainy weekend of his pre-teen mope, I was nearing my wits end. I sat him down for a heart to heart. I explained to him the cycle of Real Abuse I am grown of, my mother grown of, her parents grown of. I asked him if he had ever had open wounds purposefully inflicted on him or known what it is like to run from his home in actual fear for his life to the nearest payphone to call 911. I explained to him that I love and respect him enough to discuss things with him when he is really taxing me out, but that in the coming years, it is likely to become a more extreme effort for me. I pointed out that my mother knew what it was like to live that way and could not find the patience within her to extend me the same courtesy I give him. That alone should show how hard it can be sometimes. I told him we have to be a team and as team mates, he will need to help me sometimes in the coming years because I sure didn't want to fail at removing this element from our family tree. It was a really good talk. He thanked me. He said most of his friends' parents either scream or ignore their children's behavior. He likes that most adults are impressed with his ability to be considerate. I pointed out that a person has to be treated with consideration to know how to be the same to others. Perhaps that is the blessing of my life with Real Abuse. I know the worth of basic consideration and human dignity for being denied it. If I had been raised with a lighter hand, I might think it was okay to insult people who have earned their wisdom and always assume I knew better without doing the work. Parenting isn't like marriage. You can't divorce your kid when they prove to you that you don't always have all the answers.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 I told him we have to be a team and as team mates, he will need to help me sometimes in the coming years s4s, I didn't want to highlight your entire post, though it was all really terrific, but this part I had to address. I said the exact same thing to my son - the "we're a team" thing. He totally got it. He has been better about helping out at home and is a wonderful uncle to my little one year old grand daughter. He is very gentle and kind hearted in deailng with her. He delights in her little mannerisms, and it is pure joy watching him play with her when she spends Saturdays with us. He is growing into quite a wonderful young man.
Author Peaceful Guy Posted October 8, 2009 Author Posted October 8, 2009 well, thank you everybody. i guess what ive taken away from this is, different strokes for different folks! hur, hur, hur
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