fooled once Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Sorry. but I don't think I throw this word (bitter) right and left.. I will if I feel the BS is attacking the OW.. otherwise I don't use that word... IMO.. whorish is very very different than being bitter.. I don't even see why this is compared.. I don't think I ever said "don't listen to those Bitter BS's" or "watch out, there are a lot of bitter BS's here"' to anyone.. If you know I did.. please get that post for me.. I wasn't referring to you regarding the bolded; I was just using the "bitter" word again. But again, your view of attacking may be very different than others view of attacking. My point is -- instead of saying "bitter BS" and "whore, tramp, etc" -- which IS labeling people, how about no one use these words? How about we all stop all name calling? And again, you may think one thing (by your statement that bitter and whorish shouldn't be compared) but that doesn't mean that your way is the only/right way. And no, I am not saying you said that ... but your implication that *I* shouldn't compare them is somehow wrong. I personally have never seen a single OW called a whore on here. I have never seen "Wow, you are a whore". And if it has happened, that is wrong and it is great to see that the mods are totally on the ball! I have been a moderator on a very active and at times, very sensitive in nature/topic site and it IS hard work to keep up with infractions and violations and at the same time, let the offending poster know what and where it happened. Back to the topic - as usual - there is no "one size fits all" answer to what support is. It is very hard to determine intent of a post and no two people 'speak' the same - which is why many get hurt feelings at times over the written word and the "tone" of a post. I think each person - no matter what their title - can bring insight into situations. I understand there is anger at times, etc., but in my view, we need to remember that we can hurt others with our tone and words and we all should think about that before hitting post.
herenow Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 A person standing on top of a bridge contemplating whether to jump does not, in all sincerity, benefit from someone telling them to 'jump... the water is fine'. It can be kinder to tell them how you got into the water in the first place. And, if being in the water is such a grand place to be.. I cannot help but wonder why 'not so nice words' would be shared with the BS. Unless, of course, there is a hidden rage behind all this rebelliousness. Now I would find the exploration of what you have said to be supportive. But, that's just me. If someone would say something to be that would make me reflect on my own reasons for my actions, right or wrong, IMO, it would be appropriate for this forum.
Devil Inside Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Well I have to disagree... we certainly don't know the background of EVERYONE who offers advices on any forum.. so this is totally irrelevant... IMO. I don't know if I would say it is TOTALLY irrevelant...but it is not a requirement. I definitely think it should be something that each individual discloses as well...and not other members. If the OP in any thread has a question on what basis someone is giving advice on...they should ask. Besides..we all could be lying about who we are, or what experiences we have had. I also think that people come here for support and not answers. In fact if I remember correctly that is not the point of the site...to have someone tell you what you should do necessarily. Hopefully nobody that is about to jump off a bridge is checking here first to see if it is a good idea.
Lizzie60 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I don't know if I would say it is TOTALLY irrevelant...but it is not a requirement. I definitely think it should be something that each individual discloses as well...and not other members. If the OP in any thread has a question on what basis someone is giving advice on...they should ask. Besides..we all could be lying about who we are, or what experiences we have had. I also think that people come here for support and not answers. In fact if I remember correctly that is not the point of the site...to have someone tell you what you should do necessarily. Hopefully nobody that is about to jump off a bridge is checking here first to see if it is a good idea. That's more what I meant.. Like you said.. I haven't seen many posts with the full pedigree of the one dispensing the advice.. It would be crazy.. imagine a new poster asking for an advice.. Also.. like you said.. we all could be lying... I really don't see the background of the advice 'donor' as necessary.. honestly..
jj33 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 No, not at all. It is my way of saying that a marriage contains two within the contract and if a third party professional/amateur is being brought in for a 'therapeutic function within the marriage' all should sign off on it including both spouses. Espousing prostitution or affairs as a 'therapeutic' intervention and providing footnotes to back it up is interesting to say the least. If there are three people involved in a 'triangle' and the agreement is that it involves only two, AND if a third party is being brought into the marriage to 'make a better marriage' then IMO all three should know about the other. Otherwise, it isn't better for the 'marriage' at all. It is just a gross rationalization for self dealing. The issue however is that this belief (and similar beliefs held by others) is not necessarily RESPONSIVE to many questions that are posted. And so many of the questions posted here are met with totally UNRESPONSIVE posts based on people's beliefs about how bad affairs are, or that the BS should be told.
donnamaybe Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 The issue however is that this belief (and similar beliefs held by others) is not necessarily RESPONSIVE to many questions that are posted. And so many of the questions posted here are met with totally UNRESPONSIVE posts based on people's beliefs about how bad affairs are, or that the BS should be told. The paragraph you quoted was in direct response to a certain situation, so it truly did apply. As for those you described, people are free to ignore them.
jj33 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Sometimes people do come here for help in coping with continuing with an affair and there is nothing wrong with a reply supporting them. Thats part of what this forum is for. People who have been betrayed or whose morals are violated by an affair my be upset by that, but that is one of the purposes of this forum to provide support and for some people that is the support that they seek.
Devil Inside Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 The issue however is that this belief (and similar beliefs held by others) is not necessarily RESPONSIVE to many questions that are posted. And so many of the questions posted here are met with totally UNRESPONSIVE posts based on people's beliefs about how bad affairs are, or that the BS should be told. Good point. Rather than RESPONSIVE some answers come off as REACTIVE. For the record...I don't like that anyone be labeled or generalized here. I am both WS and BS and I do not think that I fit every stereotype..many, but not all. I do think that "bitter" is thrown out a little to easy sometimes. I see this happen on both sides. Maybe this thread can actually be a lesson to us all about sticking to the issues presented and the OP and less to discrediting each other. It happens far too often and is sad because good threads that can help get shut down.
Devil Inside Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Something that I have found eye opening is to actually read what I've written after the fact. I am sometimes amazed at how what I said was just my way of transferring my situation onto the OP and trying to work out my own issues. Again...I am saying I see this pattern in myself. I am trying, lately, to really read and understand what each poster is looking for. Some people are coming here just to have people give them sugar coated answers...if so I give that. It is not my job to judge what kind of support I should give..I leave that up to the person asking.
jj33 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Lizzie60 IS NOT the topic of this thread. Please read the original post in this thread and let's stick to the topic. The first five or six posts were terrific...let's get back to that. What we are trying to discuss here is the definition of support and how we can offer support to the people who come to this category. Many thanks! Donna I beg to differ. Just look at the above. A reminder to stay on topic. Tony has closed numerous threads when they have gone too far off topic and its often because of people pushing an agenda fueled by their experiences as a betrayed spouse.
donnamaybe Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Sometimes people do come here for help in coping with continuing with an affair and there is nothing wrong with a reply supporting them. Thats part of what this forum is for. But by continuing the affair they need "help in coping" with, wouldn't the best advice be to find a relationship where they don't "have to cope?" Most likely what they are having to cope with is sharing their MP. I know, I know. In ANY relationship there is a certain amount of coping, but in an affair, if the coping involves hating the sharing, that will NEVER go away.
donnamaybe Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Donna I beg to differ. Just look at the above. A reminder to stay on topic. Tony has closed numerous threads when they have gone too far off topic and its often because of people pushing an agenda fueled by their experiences as a betrayed spouse. Apparently you didn't read enough of this thread to find out that the beginning of the discussion which brought out the paragraph you quoted was ABOUT the KIND of support being given. That IS what we're talking about...
Devil Inside Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 But by continuing the affair they need "help in coping" with, wouldn't the best advice be to find a relationship where they don't "have to cope?" Most likely what they are having to cope with is sharing their MP. I know, I know. In ANY relationship there is a certain amount of coping, but in an affair, if the coping involves hating the sharing, that will NEVER go away. If you were to post what you just said above to someone that came her with help coping I don't think there would be a problem. It is said from a respectful and empathic place. We are going around in circles with the same point. It's not what you say...but how you say it. My other thing is...sometimes what some think is helping the OP is really a form of self-help...ya know? We should all ask ourselves sometimes..."who does this post really benefit...the OP...or me."
Leia Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 We are going around in circles with the same point. It's not what you say...but how you say it. That happens so often coz some people can't be bothered to read from the beginning.
jj33 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I really don't see any problem with people being "bitter" about their situation on either side because it's reality. What a waste of time it would be in everyone sugar coated their responses because they didn't want to upset anyone. This is about betrayal, it is an upsetting topic in itself. For example. lets say you get a ticket and go to traffic school. The teacher is going to do everything possible to make sure you don't make that mistake again. They will even show you gruesome films of fatal accidents. The thought being, if you see the destruction your actions have caused, maybe you won't make that mistake again. I would think that if OW could see the reality of a "bitter" BW, it may help them decide what to do in their own situation. Why would anyone want anyone OW or BW on this forum to hide their true feelings? Seems to me you can't get support if you don't know what is being supported. Thats the thing Herenow this forum is NOT about betrayal - its about supporting the OW/OM. The infidelity forum is about betrayal. Yes there is often betrayal involved in the OPs situation, but that is rarely the point of an OPs question. As for bitterness and a very "gruesome display of a BS's pain, I think that is Tony's point. That if a poster is very hurt by their own experience, then perhaps they are not in the best position to give real support to an OW or OM who is looking for support. And that bitterness or another "real world expression" of how someone feels about infidelity, letting it all hang out etc is only appropriate here here if it is expressed in a way that is sensitive to the OP. At least that was my take on it. And as he said its not a democracy. Hes the moderator, his rules. I happen to think he does a great job. There is already an infidelity forum, this forum serves a different purpose.
marlena Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I think that every time a BS steps on OW/OM turf, they should get banned and vice versa. It's a conflict of interests, bound to get messy. Few people, as Tony pointed out, have the class and maturity to be civil. Understandably so perhaps but that still doesn't help the OP who is looking for support.
jj33 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Donna earlier on you said that people can just ignore unresponsive posts. While that is true, one of the major problems is that people get caught in their own agenda and the threads go off topic. So while they COULD be ignored, they arent and the unresponsive posts, which are often part of an agenda are not responsive and not helpful. Perhaps you see it differently.
tinktronik Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I think that every time a BS steps on OW/OM turf, they should get banned and vice versa. It's a conflict of interests, bound to get messy. Few people, as Tony pointed out, have the class and maturity to be civil. Understandably so perhaps but that still doesn't help the OP who is looking for support. While I can certainly see your point I would wonder what qualifies one as a BS or an AP? I was cheated on but it was 10 years ago, so no, I don't consider myself a BS and I'm certainly not bitter about the cheating ( I'm plenty bitter about having an exH to deal with though! ). There are plenty of posters who at whatever time been both a BS and a AP. I think advice and support are plenty capable from both sides sans a few posters from both sides. Perhaps a more proactive banning or infraction system should be done in this section. I just wish the flaming and screaming wuld simmer down so we can all actually get something out of this.
marlena Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 There are plenty of posters who at whatever time been both a BS and a AP. And these are the most valuable posters. The only way to have a full comprehension of the complexity of these situations is if you have experienced both sides.
donnamaybe Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Donna earlier on you said that people can just ignore unresponsive posts. While that is true, one of the major problems is that people get caught in their own agenda and the threads go off topic. So while they COULD be ignored, they arent and the unresponsive posts, which are often part of an agenda are not responsive and not helpful. Perhaps you see it differently. If they go off topic, they should be reported as Tony made an entire thread about recently.
MSUE Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 i think its time to leave Lizzie alone...I don't think she should have been brought up to begin with...OP wanted to have a better understanding of what support is in the OW/OM forum...and I think we all agree that it is very individual and there is not a one answer fits all scenario... A are and will always be a very sensitive and controversial topic...and there have been plenty of times where betrayed wives or Husbands will jump in bringing nothing positive or any constructive feedback but instead use it to unload their own anger out because the associate the OP with their partner and their situation...and it also goes the other way too in which OW and OM slam their MM/MW spouse because they believe everything they are told and are angry because they are second and plenty of other reasons...and I can give plenty of other examples... and yes there has been a lot of name calling and insults and judgment thrown around in that forum...fortunately we have great moderators that are very effective and almost always those posts and threads that have gone out of hand are taken care of immediately the thing is we are all human...none of us is perfect...we are all entitled to our views and opinions and to share them...that's why forums exist...and I agree 110% with Tony all those things can be communicated but in a proper manner... its very easy to pass judgment...its human nature after all...but A's aren't usually planned and you never know when you will find yourself in a similar spot...I know some vow never to and whatnot...and end up eating their words because guess what...life happens and its very unpredictable...and we never know when we will find ourselves in the middle of a lovestorm.
Devil Inside Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Here is one thing that often gets said. I've seen it more than one from more than one person. An OW comes here in pain, her MM has just left her hanging...then come the response...one or two lines..."Well...what did you think would happen he's a liar." Or something to that effect. Just like that...nothing else. In my opinion this is not helpful. Additionally I think that it has an implication, that intended or not, is actually insulting. To me, when I read this, I see "you got what you deserved for being so stupid." Now I know that is not what was written...but it definitely implies that. Sad thing is, as a therapist I see another implication. It implies something about the person that writes it. When I see something like this I think..."hmmm, a woman allows herself to be vulnerable to a man that has been dishonest in the past...who does this remind them of?" The tone and implication of that short response scream projection to me. Now look...this is just what I see and feel. I could be off...however, I would bet that many others also see and fell this. Just doesn't help the OP and it makes the person that writes this look like they are using OP's situation to work out their own demons.
Tony Posted October 1, 2009 Senior Moderators Posted October 1, 2009 Tony you are great!!!:bunny: God Bless You!!! You get five point-free infractions!!!
NowhereToHide Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 If they feel beaten up they should step out of the ring. I just don't get why you feel the need to post here, quite frankly. Your posts are so demeaning, hurtful and insensitive. You obviously have a lot of anger from your particular situation, but it seems like it would benefit you to take a look inward to deal with some of your anger issues. These women who have made mistakes don't deserve your hatred. It's just sad.
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