Can it really work?

[White Flower]

As rarely end in a happy ending for both partied involved. GEL had a very unique situation in that she and her MM ended up together.

 

I think if there is any chance for it to work he would have to make his decisions from outside the triangle. While in the triangle his judgment will not be sound and he will waffle or stay on the fence as your integrity and self respect deteriorate.

 

If you really want a chance at a future with him, tell him that it is over and that he can call you once the divorce is final. If it is meant to be that will happen...until then you are prolonging the inevitable.

 

Good luck...I know how hard it is to be in a triangle.

DI, in your line of business do you find that men tend to struggle more with their 'integrity and self respect' with regard to a D?

 

I went to see a family lawyer with a friend a few days ago and the lawyer had recently D'd. He warned her that she would go back and forth on her decision to D and find the whole process very confusing. She stopped him mid-sentence and said she was absolutely sure and that she would never sway. I looked at him and agreed that when I filed I was sure as well. There was no fence-sitting for us.

 

I think as a society we hold men to a higher standard of responsibility probably because traditionally they have been the bread winners. I can't see anyone struggling with integrity and self-respect for divorcing, especially if they knew what they wanted and knew that splitting assets would benefit the one they leave behind.

[Sanafa]

I agree with you. I know quite a few remarried people who began with As but did not tell anyone about it. Eventually, the new W needs her reputation to be protected because after all we still like to bash the 'seductive siren.' Somehow the wedding ring puts an end to the gossip and moving to a different neighborhood helps.

 

Was just talking about those stats.

 

I also believe they are out of whack. I think the 3% is the percentage of husbands who have a D Day and walk out the door.... but doesn't take into account those that are never found out or those that stay and then leave on either their own accord or by a mutual decision by both MP and return to the the AP in a real relationship.

 

Same goes for success rate of infidelity... I have seen someone suggest it is as high as 80% and some as low as 30 with multiple affairs decreasing it significantly and as low as 5%.

 

Either way, I think my biggest surprise or the thing I have learned is that it is truly individual and when I look at the one forum given to "surviving" and most are not even surviving there... .and the other 10 or more of " after the divorce, coping, etc I think it is just as skewed.

 

Again, in those instances I think it is high because most will agree the A wasn't the final straw in there M and while it was a contributing factor wasn't not the "reason".

 

Either way you look at it..... it sucks for all involved!

[whichwayisup]

. She walks away from him if he is giving her crap, and gets on with her life - fully prepared to live it without him.

 

No offense to any OW here, but from what I've seen on LS, most OW aren't willing to end the affair and walk away for good, go on with their lives and stay in NC mode, reguardless of what MM does or doesn't do. GEL and WF are an exception here. (or am I mixing up WF with OWoman..Sorry..)

[Devil Inside]

DI, in your line of business do you find that men tend to struggle more with their 'integrity and self respect' with regard to a D?

 

What I have experienced is that in general men seem to have a harder time ending relationships then women.

 

Women seem to reach a point where it is over and they start to withdraw and then when they break it is cleaner, with more resolve, and they rarely change their mind.

 

With men there is often more ambivalence and back and forth. They have a harder time with break ups. So I imagine a D being the ultimate break-up would make men especially anxious.

 

I know that I personally would feel as if I failed if I got a D. However, lately, I will feel like a failure if I stay married for the wrong reasons.

 

This is what I have heard from my clients and may not be representative of genders in total.

[Sanafa]

What I have experienced is that in general men seem to have a harder time ending relationships then women.

 

Women seem to reach a point where it is over and they start to withdraw and then when they break it is cleaner, with more resolve, and they rarely change their mind.

 

With men there is often more ambivalence and back and forth. They have a harder time with break ups. So I imagine a D being the ultimate break-up would make men especially anxious.

 

I know that I personally would feel as if I failed if I got a D. However, lately, I will feel like a failure if I stay married for the wrong reasons.

 

This is what I have heard from my clients and may not be representative of genders in total.

 

Interesting and I wonder who most often initiates the Divorce and if that would follow the same similarities.

 

I do think for most men, the idea of failure as a parent and caregiver gives a different dynamic, for sure and I can see where they would find it more challenging and compounded by being the one who messed up.

 

And that is where MC/IC can be beneficial to really finding yourself and doing what is best for all rather than what "should" be done.

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting and I wonder who most often initiates the Divorce and if that would follow the same similarities.

 

I do think for most men, the idea of failure as a parent and caregiver gives a different dynamic, for sure and I can see where they would find it more challenging and compounded by being the one who messed up.

 

And that is where MC/IC can be beneficial to really finding yourself and doing what is best for all rather than what "should" be done.

 

From what I read women are most often the initiators of divorce.

 

I too function like the women described above. When I am done with a relationship, I am done, and I don't look back. Nothing can make me change my mind.

[OWoman]

As rarely end in a happy ending for both partied involved. GEL had a very unique situation in that she and her MM ended up together.

 

Not so unique. So did I.

 

I agree with you. I know quite a few remarried people who began with As but did not tell anyone about it. Eventually, the new W needs her reputation to be protected because after all we still like to bash the 'seductive siren.' Somehow the wedding ring puts an end to the gossip and moving to a different neighborhood helps.

 

Seductive siren? Mmm - can I use that?

 

DI, in your line of business do you find that men tend to struggle more with their 'integrity and self respect' with regard to a D?

 

I went to see a family lawyer with a friend a few days ago and the lawyer had recently D'd. He warned her that she would go back and forth on her decision to D and find the whole process very confusing. She stopped him mid-sentence and said she was absolutely sure and that she would never sway. I looked at him and agreed that when I filed I was sure as well. There was no fence-sitting for us.

 

I think as a society we hold men to a higher standard of responsibility probably because traditionally they have been the bread winners. I can't see anyone struggling with integrity and self-respect for divorcing, especially if they knew what they wanted and knew that splitting assets would benefit the one they leave behind.

 

Agree.

 

 

The oldest son who lives with his father may be a lost cause for now. He blames me alone for the breakup of their marriage... although it's somehow ok for his father to be with someone... strange how that works.

 

SD - I think there may be some Oedipal issues at play here. Boys and their mothers, uh oh... How old is this kid? It's not uncommon for boys to resist their mothers getting involved with someone after a break-up, but to be quite cool with their fathers "needing someone". It's as if they feel displaced by this new interloper, rather than their father being replaced. I wouldn't take it personally. It may change over time - most boys do grow up, eventually...

[OWoman]

No offense to any OW here, but from what I've seen on LS, most OW aren't willing to end the affair and walk away for good, go on with their lives and stay in NC mode, reguardless of what MM does or doesn't do. GEL and WF are an exception here. (or am I mixing up WF with OWoman..Sorry..)

 

We're pretty hard to confuse - she's the nice one...

 

But on the substance - I didn't end the A or walk away. It suited me. And, when it stopped suiting us both, we did something about that and changed what we needed to change, from both sides, so that we could be together. It wasn't a situation where anyone needed to "walk away".

[jennie-jennie]

We're pretty hard to confuse - she's the nice one...

 

But on the substance - I didn't end the A or walk away. It suited me. And, when it stopped suiting us both, we did something about that and changed what we needed to change, from both sides, so that we could be together. It wasn't a situation where anyone needed to "walk away".

 

OWoman, it is so refreshing to read your posts. You are such a great example to follow. :bunny:

[spiraling downward]

Was the father cheating too? There's a big difference..

 

Anyway, those kids are going to need time to adjust..Everything has happened SO fast and sure, right now you may think everything is OK, on even keel, but kids can act out in odd ways, so be prepared and put them first...Even if it means not living together for a while.

 

Well, since their divorce is not final yet... you could say that he is cheating now as well. Or does he get a pass on this? He had cheated on her at least once in their marriage... quite likely a 2nd time as well.

 

This guy is a master manipulator... I've described him before as a sociopath... he's very good at drawing sympathy to himself, as he uses the people closest to him. (I know that is my highly biased view...)

 

The thing with the youngest kids.... the dad was never around for them... that was before he discovered his wife was cheating with me. Then all of a sudden he became super dad. The young children are not accustomed to having him involved in their lives... they were involved with mom probably 95% of the time (conservative estimate.) Now through all of this, the kids were moved to a new town, changed schools and they barely missed a beat. They are with mom, afterall.

 

I see my role with them as friend/mentor. I'm not trying to be their father. It is amazing how kids respond when you take an interest in their lives. I'm just there... help them with computer problems, fix their bikes, homework... stuff like that. I am very sensitive to being too intrusive with them though.

 

I knew that if I wanted MW... her kids came as part of the package. I reconciled that within myself a long time ago. My kids are out of the house, so I'm not a novice when it comes to children. I think I know how my conduct should be around her kids.

 

I actually had this conversation with their father....

[spiraling downward]

Not so unique. So did I.

 

 

 

Seductive siren? Mmm - can I use that?

 

 

 

Agree.

 

 

 

 

SD - I think there may be some Oedipal issues at play here. Boys and their mothers, uh oh... How old is this kid? It's not uncommon for boys to resist their mothers getting involved with someone after a break-up, but to be quite cool with their fathers "needing someone". It's as if they feel displaced by this new interloper, rather than their father being replaced. I wouldn't take it personally. It may change over time - most boys do grow up, eventually...

 

He is 17 years old. Just wanted to add... I'm not taking this too personally. I'm willing to let things work itself out over time... MW on the otherhand, seems to want to push him to accept me. I think that's the wrong approach, yet on the other hand... she has dealt with him for 17 years and they do have a fairly communicative relationship. MW probably knows him better than anyone.

[Devil Inside]

He is 17 years old. Just wanted to add... I'm not taking this too personally. I'm willing to let things work itself out over time... MW on the otherhand, seems to want to push him to accept me. I think that's the wrong approach, yet on the other hand... she has dealt with him for 17 years and they do have a fairly communicative relationship. MW probably knows him better than anyone.

 

This could end up being a big deal down the road. I work with kids all the time that have to carry a lot of emotional baggage because of how their parents relationships played out.

 

I disagree with OW that this is just a stage and that he will grow out of it. I also fear that the dynamic of your WMW is pushing him to bond with will cause some issues for all three of you if not addressed.

 

Obviously I am biased because I am a therapist..but I would look into some family counseling at some point. Trust me...this is a classic triangle. I also worry that the kid is going to harbor resentment towards his mother and you and that eventually it will be a very painful reality for your MW.

[Devil Inside]

Not so unique. So did I.

 

 

Let's not give false hopes here.

 

The definition of unique is "highly unusual or rare but not the single instance." So I would say that you, GEL, and MSUE out of the many posters here would classify as rare.

 

I would also say that you three are unique women with unique men in unique circumstances...great for you that it worked out.

[OWoman]

This could end up being a big deal down the road. I work with kids all the time that have to carry a lot of emotional baggage because of how their parents relationships played out.

 

I disagree with OW that this is just a stage and that he will grow out of it. I also fear that the dynamic of your WMW is pushing him to bond with will cause some issues for all three of you if not addressed.

 

Obviously I am biased because I am a therapist..but I would look into some family counseling at some point. Trust me...this is a classic triangle. I also worry that the kid is going to harbor resentment towards his mother and you and that eventually it will be a very painful reality for your MW.

 

DI, I said may, not will... Obviously the particular circumstances need to be known before any sweeping statements could be made.

 

17 is a difficult age for this. He's old enough to have firm opinions of his own - that are unlikely to be shifted by parental pressure, one way or another - and also old enough to feel somehow responsible for his mother's welfare (they do, however rational or otherwise it may seem) while still feeling resentful at the displacement. But 17 is also an age of exploration, and an age of independence. He'll be forging his own way in the world, and working out his own answers on things, and his peer group will be more important to him than his parents for a lot of that. Having friends who've gone through a family reshuffle could help, particularly if it worked out well for them - if he's the kind of guy who speaks to his friends (some teens don't).

 

That said, maybe with his dad is where he needs to be right now. The outward-looking space a father can provide to a young man can be very valuable at this age, especially when the inward-looking space usually provided by the mother is fraught (through the addition of an "interloper"). I wouldn't push things - though I'd agree with DI that family therapy could help.

 

My H's son is 16 now, and he's been absolutely fine with it all - thanks to counselling. My H dragged the kids off to family counselling (BW refused to go) early on, and they were quite OK. (My kids too - but they're older)

[spiraling downward]

This could end up being a big deal down the road....

 

Obviously I am biased because I am a therapist..but I would look into some family counseling at some point. Trust me...this is a classic triangle. I also worry that the kid is going to harbor resentment towards his mother and you and that eventually it will be a very painful reality for your MW.

 

It's already evident that he has resentment towards his mother. He blames me first and foremost... but he resents his mother for falling for my conniving ways...

 

Like I said though... he and his mother are very open with each other as far as talking about the "awkward" things.

 

He's told her that she should just deal with being unhappy and ignored to keep the marriage together.... even though he acknowledges his father's alcholism... He's told me to stay the f*** away from his brothers.... even though the younger boys seem to like me very well.

 

so, the issues are already out front...

 

The young man has choosen his father over his mother.... but I can actually relate to this as this happened to me when I was young. My relationship was never quite the same with my Mom... even though we are a lot closer now than we were in a long time.

 

He is the major casualty in all of this and I realize this.... but he had some warped ideas about women and marriage to begin with... even before I came along. Very much like his father... he breaks down day to day chores as "man's work" and "woman's work"... He kind of see's the woman's role as to serve the man... His father was the major influence at work there and observing his mother trying to keep the family together by tolerating his drinking probably re-enforced this notion.

 

I just know how I'm going to treat his mother and he will see a different example of how a woman should be treated... with respect and love. Hopefully that will sink in as time goes on... unfortunately, he will have to learn many of these lessons on his own. Trouble is... he's a good lookin' kid and he has girls flocking to him right now... and he knows how to take advantage of that. So, there's not much that we can say or do to sway him right now. It's just going to take time. IMO.

[OWoman]

Let's not give false hopes here.

 

The definition of unique is "highly unusual or rare but not the single instance." So I would say that you, GEL, and MSUE out of the many posters here would classify as rare.

 

My intention wasn't to create "false hope" - but it was to point out that there are cases where it has worked out.

 

Unique does not mean rare, it means a one-off. GEL was not a one-off - there are others of us here. We may not be the majority, but we exist.

u·nique (y-nk)adj.1. Being the only one of its kind: the unique existing example of Donne's handwriting.

2. Without an equal or equivalent; unparalleled.

 

(that from thefreedictionary.com)

 

I would also say that you three are unique women with unique men in unique circumstances...great for you that it worked out.

 

Every A is unique - I've claimed that all along. Each is different in its own way, in its own unique circumstances. Though, when I claim that, I get shot down by hundreds of posters telling me that they're all the same, really. So then when I say that they're all the same, so mine can't be any different, and mine worked out, I get told that no, I am different and mine is different. At which stage my braincell implodes and I go off and win a Nobel prize or something - anything! - less taxing than trying to understand that line of logic.

 

SD - these situations can work. Whether yours will or not, though, is a different question, and I wouldn't put too much store on the outcomes of others either way for that. What matters most is you, your partner, and what you're prepared to invest to make it work. With teenage complications, I'd agree that family therapy would be a good place to start. Otherwise, sooner or later someone is going to say something that can't be unsaid.

[spiraling downward]

SD - these situations can work. Whether yours will or not, though, is a different question, and I wouldn't put too much store on the outcomes of others either way for that. What matters most is you, your partner, and what you're prepared to invest to make it work. With teenage complications, I'd agree that family therapy would be a good place to start. Otherwise, sooner or later someone is going to say something that can't be unsaid.

 

Well fortunately, I'm very patient and long suffering... I also have fairly good insight into other people's feelings... from my end, I think I can do the things to not fan the flames even further. I have been talking to my MW about this... she agrees with me... but she wears her emotions on her sleave... so it's harder for her not to say anything.

 

Edit: Here is some more info on what's going on... some background... MW's husband has a menu of stock responses that he uses over and over pertaining to any conflict in the divorce... it's to the point of being comical. MW's husband swears up and down that he is not feeding the teenage son any negatives about the situation and MW... but the the proof is in the pudding. What comes out of the teenage son's mouth is almost a carbon copy of the things his father says. They are things that a 17 year old kid is highly unlikely to have formulated himself. We have had several situations where MW talked with teenage son and gave her side of events... and he was taken back with the difference in the stories (mainly concerning money...) to that he says that now he knows both versions of the story and it really seems to make him think about the broader perspectives.

 

So, in spite of the counseling the MW and husband went through concerning the issue of children in divorce... it seem's to be lost on the husband. He's just sees himself blameless in all of this... despite his earlier affairs, his alcoholism and how he ignored his family. He really is blind to his ownself... or keeps it suppressed. Of course, I think he's a sociopath... so that all looms heavily in the background.

 

The teenaged son has already demonstrated that he will abuse substances to make himself feel better... His father's side of the family is full of alcoholics... he's had a lifetime of examples... so that is something that probably will be handed down to him. There is already much damage done... in a lot of ways this was a dysfunctional family to begin with. That is MW's biggest fear about teenaged son... the alcoholism. I'm betting that it would be fairly difficult to get him into any type of counseling now at his age.

[Devil Inside]

Well fortunately, I'm very patient and long suffering... I also have fairly good insight into other people's feelings... from my end, I think I can do the things to not fan the flames even further. I have been talking to my MW about this... she agrees with me... but she wears her emotions on her sleave... so it's harder for her not to say anything.

 

Edit: Here is some more info on what's going on... some background... MW's husband has a menu of stock responses that he uses over and over pertaining to any conflict in the divorce... it's to the point of being comical. MW's husband swears up and down that he is not feeding the teenage son any negatives about the situation and MW... but the the proof is in the pudding. What comes out of the teenage son's mouth is almost a carbon copy of the things his father says. They are things that a 17 year old kid is highly unlikely to have formulated himself. We have had several situations where MW talked with teenage son and gave her side of events... and he was taken back with the difference in the stories (mainly concerning money...) to that he says that now he knows both versions of the story and it really seems to make him think about the broader perspectives.

 

So, in spite of the counseling the MW and husband went through concerning the issue of children in divorce... it seem's to be lost on the husband. He's just sees himself blameless in all of this... despite his earlier affairs, his alcoholism and how he ignored his family. He really is blind to his ownself... or keeps it suppressed. Of course, I think he's a sociopath... so that all looms heavily in the background.

 

The teenaged son has already demonstrated that he will abuse substances to make himself feel better... His father's side of the family is full of alcoholics... he's had a lifetime of examples... so that is something that probably will be handed down to him. There is already much damage done... in a lot of ways this was a dysfunctional family to begin with. That is MW's biggest fear about teenaged son... the alcoholism. I'm betting that it would be fairly difficult to get him into any type of counseling now at his age.

 

That's tough. I agree that it sounds like his father is doing him no favors.

 

It may help your MW to go to some therapy to learn how to deal with/ accept some of the hard times that are ahead with her son. The concern for your R here is that she may come to blame this R for losing her son and begin to resent that you two are together.

 

I'm sure she already has some of that dynamic of guilt from the divorce. It may also benefit for you to join her occasionally and learn how to support her in this process.

 

Sounds like you will be a positive male role model for the two younger boys..good for them.