Phateless Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Phateless, the aspects of negging and using people, be it friends or "eff partners", is more than enough research for me. I'ts not like that. It's about learning how to relate to people. Most girls will shut you out if you walk up and say "hi." because it's too direct and they feel "ok wtf does this guy want?!" If you go in more casual it leaves people feeling more comfortable. They're just various ways to make the introduction so you have a chance to get to know someone. I'm sad that you look down on this so strongly. It really helped me to become who I am now. edit - TBF, do you think I'm a greasy douchebag sleazeball game player?
Author Taramere Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 See the thing is that I could easily and unsuspectingly fall for some of those techniques' date=' but the caveat is that he has to come in the form of someone I would already find somewhat esthetically pleasing. [/quote'] If you fancy the guy, then it's probably less a case of unsuspectingly falling for the techniques and more a case of responding positively to them. "Negging" doesn't have to be a hostile thing. It might just be teasing banter which you return. Then there's the touching part. Men don't touch accidentally - they do it to establish rapport and as part of a build up towards more touching. We know this. We'll instinctively move towards a man to encourage more touching, or away to encourage less. If you're attracted to a guy and enjoying everything that goes along with a guy doing the pick-up routine, you'll go along with a lot of it - giving out and receiving cues in order to keep it going. If you think he's a creep - or even if it's just a case of really not fancying him, you'll freeze him out. I just object to the notion that women are gullible, innocent victims in the whole flirtation game. I think that notion arises from the fact that the psychology surrounding PUA is such a revelation to some guys when they start studying it.
Trialbyfire Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Phateless, finding PUA methodology distasteful, has nothing to do with what I think of you. If you found some of it helpful, this is what you've chosen to emulate. That I find the harshly negative aspects of the techniques distasteful, this is how I feel about it.
Thaddeus Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I just object to the notion that women are gullible, innocent victims in the whole flirtation game. Exactly, which is why I wrote earlier, Nobody likes to believe they can be manipulated. Nobody wants to believe that another person can be so influential. Everyone figures that, given enough time and input, they can "figure out" how the magic trick is done.Remember, these guys - even if you find them repulsive (which, at least for Mystery, pretty much hits the nail on the head) - come in so subtly and so under the radar that you don't even know it. I'm going to repeat that, because it's the key to the whole process: They come in so under the radar that you don't even know it. Yes, this means you! It's not about being weak or gullible. Would you consider a magician's audience to be weak or gullible? Of course not. But the fact is that the audience, whether it's in the presence of a magician or a practised PUA, doesn't even know what's happening until the trick is over. Sleight-of-hand, misdirection, it's all part of the process. No, it doesn't work 100% of the time. Nothing does. But it's based in tried-and-true psychological theory and shouldn't be dismissed as only working on the weak-minded, gullible and those with low self-esteem. That's just not the case.
StayinFree Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 it's all part of the process. No, it doesn't work 100% of the time. I think that's the point made by many of the PUA's If it works even a fraction of the time ... it's getting laid way more than enough. Even 51% odds would make you wealthy in Las Vegas. I think most of the PUA's would be more than happy with 10% Just hit on 10 girls at the pub - and take one of them home.
Phateless Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Phateless, finding PUA methodology distasteful, has nothing to do with what I think of you. If you found some of it helpful, this is what you've chosen to emulate. That I find the harshly negative aspects of the techniques distasteful, this is how I feel about it. Makes sense. It seems as if you are drawing the inference that PUA is scum, as are all who study it. I agree, there are some negative aspects, mainly the opportunity to manipulate people. It's all about the person. I choose to be straight up and open with people. My only goal was to learn how not to screw things up.
StayinFree Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 And all this talk from women who say, "Well it wouldn't work on ME ... cause it only works on young girls with low self esteem." I think that a PUA is not even slightly interested in a long term meaningful relationship with anyone ... at least not til some time in the future. They just want to get laid. And the younger and the dumber ... the better.
Woggle Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Yeah, but you live in New Jersey.... What does that have to do with anything?
Author Taramere Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 I'm going to repeat that, because it's the key to the whole process: They come in so under the radar that you don't even know it. Yes, this means you! If I'm in a club and a guy starts talking to me, it doesn't matter what approach he employs - I'm going to assume he's hoping to get laid. What happens after the approach depends largely on how I respond to him, or whether someone else catches his eye. Most of the time, I'm going to respond in a friendly but non-flirtatious way because the bar scene isn't my preferred place for meeting men (I prefer outdoorsy, more natural environments where I can see a guy doing something more interesting than propping up a bar and performing). It's not about being weak or gullible. Would you consider a magician's audience to be weak or gullible? Of course not. But the fact is that the audience, whether it's in the presence of a magician or a practised PUA, doesn't even know what's happening until the trick is over. Sleight-of-hand, misdirection, it's all part of the process. If it makes men feel better and more in control of the process to believe that women aren't noticing every little touch, and don't know the underlying aim of the "I can tell if someone's lying or not. Look into my eyes - now think of the colour of your car - now imagine a pink elephant with yellow spots..." tricks then that's fine. In a superficial club situation with someone I don't know, I'm not going to be a spoilsport by conducting a running commentary on what he's doing. But come on....for most women, the process of guys trying to crack onto them starts around age 14. You think we don't learn a thing or two about the way guys operate with women...or spend time contemplating what Guy A did that worked with us or our friends (and why) and what Guy B did that made our toes curl in a bad way, or made us take a dislike to him? Most of all, you think we don't have male friends and brothers who we discuss all this stuff to death with?
Phateless Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 And all this talk from women who say, "Well it wouldn't work on ME ... cause it only works on young girls with low self esteem." I think that a PUA is not even slightly interested in a long term meaningful relationship with anyone ... at least not til some time in the future. They just want to get laid. And the younger and the dumber ... the better. That is pure conjecture with absolutely nothing to base it on. A lot of guys IN GENERAL want to get laid. A lot of guys who study PUA use it specifically to find a women they want to marry.
butcher's hook Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 If you fancy the guy, then it's probably less a case of unsuspectingly falling for the techniques and more a case of responding positively to them. "Negging" doesn't have to be a hostile thing. It might just be teasing banter which you return. Well that's just it, on the flip side to my last post I was going to say that if you do fancy the guy from the get go he basically can do no wrong. Well he can, but for the most part if he is playing cool and vibing with you a little cocky banter is always welcomed and it's fun. This Mystery guys takes it to the umpteenth degree, like flipping the bird to a woman and using that as the "opener"? Gimme a break!! :rolleyes: Then there's the touching part. Men don't touch accidentally - they do it to establish rapport and as part of a build up towards more touching. We know this. We'll instinctively move towards a man to encourage more touching, or away to encourage less. But if you are a 21 yr old stripper, which seems to be the target audience for Mystery, and you are used to "touching bad" and Tiny is hovering over you with his gorrilla-esque body to ensure no one touches you, that may be why it is such a kept secret from some women. Typically touch is a natural progressive part of the mating game as a woman who is hip to the dating game, already knows. If you're attracted to a guy and enjoying everything that goes along with a guy doing the pick-up routine, you'll go along with a lot of it - giving out and receiving cues in order to keep it going. If you think he's a creep - or even if it's just a case of really not fancying him, you'll freeze him out. I just object to the notion that women are gullible, innocent victims in the whole flirtation game. I think that notion arises from the fact that the psychology surrounding PUA is such a revelation to some guys when they start studying it. While I do have a hang-up with the whole aspect of cheating someone into submission if you will, I think that as a concept it is pretty realistic in a bare boned sort of way, and it would be easier to digest if it didn't have the over the top component of how you are there to degrade a woman basically. I just can't respect anyone who would set out to do that. That is not confidence that is insecurity at its highest form. So you got a chance to watch some of his vids on youtube, please watch Mystery on the Jimmy Kimmel show observe his demeanor as he sits in that chair and explains to the audience what he is about. VERY different presentation than when he speaks on his own videos. That said a lot for me. Not so sure of himself when the world is watching him rather than an "unsuspecting victim" at a bar.
Surfer Dude Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I think people are horrified when they sense they're losing power in any way or that they're being influenced/played by anyone. That's why there's such an uprising among women over all this PUA stuff. There was a similar reaction from men when "The rules" book was released back in the 90s. I mean, it's human nature, what are we all expecting to see? Just as men can't stand feminists and feminazis, because they stand to lose power to them, women can't stand any guys who might have control over them. It's that simple. I'm a student of seduction but I've realized early that positive relationships with people/women aren't built and based on control and and power, but rather on positive feelings and mutual respect. I respect every woman I meet and I definitely see the best in her. I give her a chance to get to know me better and to see if she's cool. If she's cool, likes me and respects me, then she gets the same treatment from me and we can finally connect on a deeper level, fully admire each other and exchange value. That being said, if a woman is being a rude bitch to me or is attention-whoring but will never like me as more than a friend, I will drop all contact and burn the bridges. This might sound cold, heartless and even misogynistic, but I simply don't have the time for women who won't give me the time of day. I don't waste my time on ridiculous dinner dates and similar BS, because I know how attraction works. It's just easier to go out, meet cool women, get the numbers, screen for qualities I need in a woman and establish a meaningful relationship from the very beginning (sex included), without all the bullsh*t headgames and societal rituals. As for the whole self improvement thing: Just as women get dressed nicely and spend entire fortunes on makeup and clothes to be more attractive to men, men have found tactics to appeal to women (excluding these ridiculous outfits). Some birds in animal kingdom have appealing colors to be more attractive to their potential mates. If any woman really discourages self improvement in men, I can simply discredit her by telling her to go to social settings in some old rags and without using makeup. Such an attitude would be man-hating.
EddieN Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 An entire art and game devoted to picking up women seems boring to me. Don't these guys have better things to do? Do they just hang around in bars and clubs every night and put on a fake act of cockiness around women? What a life... I'm sure the PUA community has its positives. I've been thinking of getting The Game even. It seems like a lot of these guys put in too much work and make too big a deal about women, though.
Trialbyfire Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 It seems like a lot of these guys put in too much work and make too big a deal about women, though.So for all you power mongers, who's now got control of whom?
alphamale Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I don't waste my time on ridiculous dinner dates and similar BS, because I know how attraction works. look fool....attraction and chemistry between two people is either there or its not. it can't be "created" out of thin air. it just happens by itself
Author Taramere Posted July 8, 2009 Author Posted July 8, 2009 While I do have a hang-up with the whole aspect of cheating someone into submission if you will' date=' I think that as a concept it is pretty realistic in a bare boned sort of way, and it would be easier to digest if it didn't have the over the top component of how you are there to degrade a woman basically. I just can't respect anyone who would set out to do that. That is not confidence that is insecurity at its highest form.[/quote'] I think that the PU philosophy is all about wanting to feel in control of a situation and have the upper hand. Ideally, courtship is an elaborate dance that both parties participate in and enjoy. If someone's employing negative techniques on you that make you feel unhappy, insecure or angry, you're not going to enjoy it. Reading The Game, I didn't mind Neil Strauss. He seemed to like the women he got involved with, even if it was only for the short term, and have a pretty positive outlook generally. He never forgot that courtship is supposed to be fun for everyone. With some of the others, it's about manipulation and trying to get a sense of one-up over another person. I think that tells a story about those others maybe going through life feeling like victims. Hence Mystery's bouts of narcissistic breakdown, regardless of how many women he sleeps with.
Thaddeus Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 An entire art and game devoted to picking up women seems boring to me. Don't these guys have better things to do? Do they just hang around in bars and clubs every night and put on a fake act of cockiness around women? What a life... I'm sure the PUA community has its positives. I've been thinking of getting The Game even. It seems like a lot of these guys put in too much work and make too big a deal about women, though. Well put. This is my biggest beef with the whole PUA community. Their entire lives revolved around women. Sure, I like women as much as the next hetero-type guy, but fercryinoutloud there are other things in life!
Stockalone Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 No, it doesn't work 100% of the time. Nothing does. But it's based in tried-and-true psychological theory and shouldn't be dismissed as only working on the weak-minded, gullible and those with low self-esteem. That's just not the case. I don't know about that. Take a woman who knows what she wants, has a healthy self-esteem and is aware that men will lie to her just to get her into bed. If that woman takes one look at you and thinks you are disgusting, ugly, a loser, or low-class; I don't believe that this can be overcome, no matter what you tell her.
butcher's hook Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 look fool....attraction and chemistry between two people is either there or its not. it can't be "created" out of thin air. it just happens by itself :lmao: That just about sums it up!:lmao::lmao:
burning 4 revenge Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I thought women were supposed to be the aggressors these days anyways. I wouldnt even think to try and speak to a female stranger in a social setting
butcher's hook Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I think that the PU philosophy is all about wanting to feel in control of a situation and have the upper hand. Ideally, courtship is an elaborate dance that both parties participate in and enjoy. If someone's employing negative techniques on you that make you feel unhappy, insecure or angry, you're not going to enjoy it. That's the bottom line, that analogy is spot on! Some of these guys however were born with two left feet. There is a fine art to cockey banter and not everyone can pull it off. On many it just comes off as arrogant douche bag trying too hard. Nothing makes me close the door on a guy faster than that.
alphamale Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I thought women were supposed to be the aggressors these days anyways. I wouldnt even think to try and speak to a female stranger in a social setting dude, come on, if you want the chick YOU have to take the risk man. let the cajones fly in the wind for once.
StayinFree Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 A lot of guys IN GENERAL want to get laid. Duh ... really???? Thanks for the insight That is pure conjecture with absolutely nothing to base it on. A lot of guys who study PUA use it specifically to find a women they want to marry. Now THAT is pure conjecture with absolutely nothing to base it on. Besides that ... your a woman telling us how men think. Or is that what guys told you and you actually believe? Guys don't study PUA to find a bride! Not a lot of them anyway.
StayinFree Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Sorry Phateless ... i just assumed your were a woman. Then I checked No offense intended.
Surfer Dude Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 look fool....attraction and chemistry between two people is either there or its not. it can't be "created" out of thin air. it just happens by itself Wow, someone has an attitude... is that because your little oneitis Susan rejected you? Look, I'll try to explain it in simpler terms: - you can do unattractive things that breed contempt - you can do attractive things that breed attraction We always have a choice. And if someone thinks he has no choice and that his life and relationships with women are governed by magic powers and divine gods, then he can live in such fallacy for all I care. You're an old guy, you should've figured out some things by now.
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