moimeme Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 When you venture into mysticism, you have left requirements of 'proofs', 'rigour' and all that far behind. Don't expect tests, demonstrations, notes, or experiments. Don't look for data. These things simply don't belong. But this thread is about atheism, after all, so carry on. We digressed. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 moi: o, ok. i see. what systems do you use to make sure mystical thought is useful then? nova: i think atheism lacks beauty. there is something about the history and joint research effort of religion that i envy and covet. my jewish friends, and to some degree xtian father, are easily the best scholars i have ever met, in terms of how they debate each other on the text and meaning - with meaningful evidence! i think that hearing arguments against atheism is useful for me to understand the affective need for religion, which i suspect i might share. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Jo - over to you! dang, girl, I thought I was doing good using "cerebral" versus "visceral"! but I'll attempt to "weed through the dreck" for the benefit of the gentle reader .... I *think* what Merry's getting at is that mysticism in its purest form takes on a one-to-one relationship, unclouded and unfettered by any trappings. Best example I can give comes from my own religious background. Before Vatican II was adopted, the Latin Mass was the norm. Lots of bells and smells (bells and incense), lots of chanting and use of Latin, all to give homage to a Mystical, Mysterious God. But post-Vatican II, people could celebrate Mass in their native language and all of a sudden we didn't have all these trappings to contend with just to be "close" to God at church: it was a one-to-one relationship that wasn't impeded by language or noise or stinky stuff! If you take away all the hoopla (my personal opinion inserted here, through word use) surrounding New Age mysticism (which people are more likely to be familiar with), you end up in simple, but profound relationship with That Which is Mystical. However, there are people who find it hard to make a connection without those tangible trappings (almost like those people, who for the life of me I can't understand, insist on the return of the Latin Mass!). They're taking it away from the visceral, or inner, stage and making it into something cerebral ... Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 what systems do you use ummm, it's visceral? Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 ahh.this totally helps. i've read pacem in terris <sp?> too and loved it. he wanted intimacy, and that i get. i love hearing it explicated, it makes sense. thank you! making conclusions from personal affect experience *is* rational - we have more in common than most would suspect. Link to post Share on other sites
novascade Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I agree, but please stop with x I don't think Christ like his name bloted out Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 so can we sum it up as religion -- whether you're pro-God, anti-God, mad-at-God or just don't believe in God -- is a vehicle which people of a like mindset gather around? my other question is this: if you profess to not believe in God, but live your life as a just man or woman, taking care not to hurt others, then what moves you to live by that code? Wouldn't it go to say that a truly godless person believes he has no responsibility to society, therefore can act as he wishes without worry of retribution? Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by quankanne ummm, it's visceral? er, i'm so sorry, i don't know what that means or what it entails. what are its standards? i'm curious, i'm not being facetious, and no one, excepting jewish friends, has ever been able to explain to me how their system is equivalent in strength to logic. i take pleasure from being proven wrong, i suppose im trying to recreate that, giggles. cheers, j o, just saw new post: i love this as a question: my other question is this: if you profess to not believe in God, but live your life as a just man or woman, taking care not to hurt others, then what moves you to live by that code? Wouldn't it go to say that a truly godless person believes he has no responsibility to society, therefore can act as he wishes without worry of retribution? i sooooo believe in humans. if i see evidence that i have hurt them - tears, anger, pain, then i will seek not to do that. i will change. i'm godless, but i work really hard to help humankind, because i believe in their existence and need. i believe i exist and i need, and others do, and that's enough for me to handle. the retribution i would face is from humans themselves - :( i don't want to be left alone in a self-satisfied human bubble - that's a hell worse than milton could imagine. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 we have more in common than most would suspect you mean past the fact that our address is 1 Hydra Cave? visceral - felt from the inside, I guess is the best way to describe it. Cerebral is more of a thinking out process, but visceral goes a bit deeper than just emotional and empathetic ... you can try describing faith in terms of things logical, but it paints a pretty poor picture, IMHO. Sometimes, it's a feeling thing, you know? I can quote you things about my faith, trying to describe it, but I honestly can't tell you why I love being Catholic, except to say "It's mine, it's between me and God." Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 if i see evidence that i have hurt them - tears, anger, pain, then i will seek not to do that. i will change. but what urges you to make those changes? what is inside of you that feels it must do right by others? my thought is, God created us in his image, so this is a residual of him, wanting to do the right thing. And I think this separates us from those who chose to act on baser instincts without a care for the others around them! Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 you mean past the fact that our address is 1 Hydra Cave? lol! the best way i can actually think of describing this is actually merry's method. when one is talking to atheists, imagine you are talking to someone who has never felt romantic love. it doesn't exist for everyone, but they are curious about it, they know it affords satisfaction, and they are trying, with the tools they have, to reach it. now, i have felt love and can, to some degree, explicate it logically and demographically. i think man with characteristics A, B, and C, will produce X emotion in me. but not always. it's that statistical uncertainty in me that i would partly define as love. i'm not out to attack unless attacked first. i really see no need for animosity between the faithful and the otherwise faithful. i really kind of dig hearing about people's processes of religious faith, is all. it's like true love stories on a grander stranger level. cheers, xox j Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 If God posts on this forum, DO NOT DELETE under any circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 "When man talks to God, they call it praying. When God talks to man, they call it schizophrenia." - Lily Tomlin, 1976 Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 quick thinking, Tony! no use provoking deities if you can help it ... love is an excellent analogy, Jenny! Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Jo - I *think* what Merry's getting at is that mysticism in its purest form takes on a one-to-one relationship, unclouded and unfettered by any trappings visceral - felt from the inside, I guess is the best way to describe it. Cerebral is more of a thinking out process, but visceral goes a bit deeper than just emotional and empathetic ... you can try describing faith in terms of things logical, but it paints a pretty poor picture, IMHO. Sometimes, it's a feeling thing, you know? I can quote you things about my faith, trying to describe it Perfection! Much better than I'd manage making conclusions from personal affect experience *is* rational Huh? love is an excellent analogy, Jenny! ! LOL ! Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 please stop with x I don't think Christ like his name bloted out As a matter of fact, X has long been used: X (as in the greek letter Chi) was used by the early church with P (Rho) to represent Christ in writing. So, while it may be the lazy way out, it's not necessarily disrespectful. Or new. Link to post Share on other sites
novascade Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 But I don't know greek, ( x looks like his name is been crossed out. thats what baptist people use to say.) Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 moi's right about the history - don't get upset by it; we did start doing it because it often irks the kind of people we like irking, and we can then defend ourselves with the history - but the best way to defeat that is to know the history and decide not to be bothered by it. it would bother me not at all if you used a diminutive for atheist Link to post Share on other sites
novascade Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I just didn't know till today, so for along time I thought it was an insult, thanks for the info,atheist, I think it lack morals because if they didn't believe in God, they would not blame him for everything. (Example thanks to your God we're atheist, thanks to your God we have sin, if it wasn't for your God we would in peace.) Since he"s my God (and to those that believe)your still edifying there is a God, but you won't claim him, because some tragedy, most atheist believed in God till they loose someone they love, blame God and loose faith, read the book(or scriptures) of Job and see what he went through.King James version. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 hi nova, as an atheist, i actually don't think god causes war, sin, or the like. to me, this would be akin to blaming a fictional character, - say, huckleberry finn, - for tragedies. cheers, j Link to post Share on other sites
novascade Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I was replying to those who told me that, but to those who tell me different , I really don't have a reason to argue with your believes, to convert someone is literally wrong, because your (not trying to say you jenny )trying to change there believes, and robing them of their right to think, if you want an atheist to believe, you don't tell them there is a god and thats final, as followers of Christ you pray for them(not with them,thats like an insult), though they may not want it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 that's cool. thank you for explaining. i have to say i love the idea of someone out there systematically wishing me well, it's beautiful - it's very much the idea of the forum, as well. thanks, sweet Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 it would bother me not at all if you used a diminutive for atheist "ath"? ... *ahem* ... i have to say i love the idea of someone out there systematically wishing me well a priest friend explained it well: Praying for others is like giving away fists full of honey. Even though it's intended for someone else, you can't help be affected by it, too! Link to post Share on other sites
novascade Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Just trying to get the point to those knuckleheads who try to pound there believe in people God does not want you stalking people, he said to his apostle, if they don't except you wipe the dust of your feet and move on, not word for word but you get the point. I pray for all to find God thats all I'm suppose to do. Link to post Share on other sites
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