Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Because you sound like one of my exes. Why does that matter to you though? (the banana analogy was good!) It just doesn't make sense to say one is better than the other unless you believe he is more fixable in one of the two states? Like someone else said here, "motive" is an important factor to consider. This is what I was addressing in MY situation. And yes, the fact that his actions were a symptom of his own "issues" and not done to hurt me (although they did obviously) it is a HUGE difference for me. His motive wasn't to hurt me but to make himself feel better. If he had conducted the affair to hurt me and to make himself feel better than that would have been different. And my husband "fixed" himself--his mistake, bad judgment, poor decision making, whatever you want to call it--made him finally face himself.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Your assuming that those two things are separate, however they are not. Yes, he was selfish... and Yes he did intend to hurt. There is absolutely no way he could have been ignorant of the consequences to you by doing this. Once again you presume too much. No one knows what is going on someone else's mind. You cannot say that my H intended to hurt me with his actions. Because you do not know him-you have not talked to him-you could walk into his place of business right now and obviously would not even know it was him. So don't tell me you know that he intended to hurt me. I think you tend to look at everyone and everyone else's situation with ONLY your perspective--ignoring anyone else's perspective including those who would know it best because they have lived/are living in their situation.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 My point is.......Perhaps she did it for herself AND in the big scheme of things it had nothing at all whatsoever to do with YOU. Thats just it, I was so insignificant to her that she DID this at all. Oh, but wanted to keep the marriage after she had her fun. Yes, you got hurt in the end. That's obvious. But do you hold on to this for the rest of your life? Thinking she stuck it to you!!!!! 1) by saying she did this TO me isn't really saying she did it intentionally to hurt me or that she was trying to stick it to me. I know that. But even so, it WAS stuck to me nonetheless...maybe indirectly...but I don't care how you slice it. Do I hold on to it for the rest of my life? Nope..thats why I divorced her. Do I hold on to it in a sense that it shapes my way of thinking about how to handle it if it ever happens again...you bet. No woman can ever hurt me again. For myself...I did not do it TO my husband. For me it was an escape. Escaping from dealing with HIM on a daily basis. It made it not quite so difficult knowing I had someone else there. HE was dealing with his issues in the marriage his way, This is just the way I chose to deal with them. And again, even though it wasn't your intent, you DID betray him therefore you DID do THAT to him.
Owl Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Once again you presume too much. No one knows what is going on someone else's mind. You cannot say that my H intended to hurt me with his actions. Because you do not know him-you have not talked to him-you could walk into his place of business right now and obviously would not even know it was him. So don't tell me you know that he intended to hurt me. I think you tend to look at everyone and everyone else's situation with ONLY your perspective--ignoring anyone else's perspective including those who would know it best because they have lived/are living in their situation. Hang on a second. Here's the thing. He may not have conducted his affair with the INTENT of hurting you (boy, I'm looking forward to seeing her face when I tell her about shaboinking this lady)....but he did indeed still conduct the affair with the KNOWLEDGE that he was going to hurt you (my wife is going to be devestated when she learns that I shaboinked this lady). He knew full well that hurting you was part of the outcome...regardless of whether or not it was part of the outcome that HE DESIRED. There was no way he could have believed that you WOULDN'T be hurt by this. (Beyond of course the always excuse "I never wanted you to find out".) Don't give him too much credit here, friend. He did what he did with full awareness that you WOULD be hurt...you're just giving him too much credit because he didn't DESIRE you to be hurt. My wife did the same thing as your H. She didn't want me to be hurt. So she mentally avoided thinking about that part of the outcome. BUT...she was still fully aware that I WOULD be hurt...and it didn't stop her from continuing, just as it didn't stop your H. INTENT isn't the source of the pain. Intent to hurt is RARELY an integral part of an affair. But that does not negate the CHOICE to cheat...the CHOICE to inflict that harm purely out of selfish motives to get what they wanted...the other person. See the deal here?
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Yes the results are the same. The innocent spouse gets hurt. The difference is the INTENT which is what I spoke about in my post. Yes, both actions are selfish but the intent is different in each action. And I'm talking about my marriage and the banana example. Maybe everyone should divorce once their spouse does something 'selfish' because it is the end result, the hurt caused, not the intent, right? I don't give one iota or crap about what the INTENT was. If a spouse does something "selfish", no you don't just get a divorce...geez. But for me, if a spouse/gf cheats....she is gone. Don't care what the INTENT was. What matters is that it happened.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 Do I hold on to it in a sense that it shapes my way of thinking about how to handle it if it ever happens again...you bet. No woman can ever hurt me again. I understand your point. I believe that ALL of us here have learned something & taken our experiences & apply them to our lives now. Those that were "betrayed" won't let it happen again & if it did happen again you'd handle things differently.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Those that were "betrayed" won't let it happen again & if it did happen again you'd handle things differently. I'd handle it pretty much the same....the relationship would end as my marriage did by my doing. Only difference would be there would be no timeframe in there where I feel desperate or afraid, and I wouldn't be even trying to save what isn't worth saving.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Once again you presume too much. No one knows what is going on someone else's mind. You cannot say that my H intended to hurt me with his actions. Because you do not know him-you have not talked to him-you could walk into his place of business right now and obviously would not even know it was him. So don't tell me you know that he intended to hurt me. I think you tend to look at everyone and everyone else's situation with ONLY your perspective--ignoring anyone else's perspective including those who would know it best because they have lived/are living in their situation. The first part Owl explained much better than I could. Plus, he used Shaboink in a sentence (extra points!). As to the rest. Every single day for work I have to understand other peoples perspectives and predict what they want. I'm very good at it. I understand how most personality types think, and what motivates them. So, I fully understand where your coming from. That doesn't mean it isn't worth showing you another perspective.
NewSunrise Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 It's very interesying how the word "INTENT" has been used to justify A. Here's another perspective. Let's use the banana analogy. You know your H loves bananas and there's only one left that day. You eat it anyway because your reasoning is because you're hungry. Fine. We get it. But if you keep eating the last banana and use the same lame excuse, you now have every intent of hurting and pizzing of you H. The minute you realize that you are involved in an EA or PA but you don't do anything to stop the behavior, your excuse is no longer valid. You can't keep backing into and run over your dog once you realize what you did. If you do, what kind of person are you? A lunatic animal killer? You'd be arrested for animal cruelty! So you can't keep boinking your OP and not expect to ptentially kill both your H (STDs anyone?) and M.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 ...Only difference would be there would be no timeframe in there where I feel desperate or afraid, and I wouldn't be even trying to save what isn't worth saving. I agree...and this is what made me decide to give my H another chance. If he even began to repeat any of his behaviors again - I would be done. There would be no trying on my part at all - not again.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 It's very interesying how the word "INTENT" has been used to justify A. I'm speaking for myself here and intent does not justify an affair but it can explain why certain things happened as they did. There is no excuse for an affair IMO - but explanations as to why it happened are useful in moving forward - no matter what happens to the marriage. Explanations are not an excuse or a justification for any behavior. But an explanation can begin the healing process, along with true remorse, contrition, etc.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 The first part Owl explained much better than I could. Plus, he used Shaboink in a sentence (extra points!). As to the rest. Every single day for work I have to understand other peoples perspectives and predict what they want. I'm very good at it. I understand how most personality types think, and what motivates them. So, I fully understand where your coming from. That doesn't mean it isn't worth showing you another perspective. Understood. Thank you
NewSunrise Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I'm speaking for myself here and intent does not justify an affair but it can explain why certain things happened as they did. There is no excuse for an affair IMO - but explanations as to why it happened are useful in moving forward - no matter what happens to the marriage. Explanations are not an excuse or a justification for any behavior. But an explanation can begin the healing process, along with true remorse, contrition, etc. This wasn't directed at you snowlflower. You're clear about giving you H a second chance. I have been in you shoes. Also gave xWH a second chance for the same reasons you are doing. Your H must now prove he's worthy of that second chance. My xWH? Well, I should've left earlier. In hindsight, our M deserved a second chance but he didn't. I've taken the same position as Dex. Once you've experienced the wrath from a WS, you don't ever want to take that same path again. So, no I wouldn't give another person a second chance. Life's too short to be wasted on someone who has qualms about cheating on you. I do wish you and your H well along with confusedinkansas. Keep us posted.
Tired03 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 It's very interesying how the word "INTENT" has been used to justify A. No one was using the word intent to justify an affair. I think you're confused.
Reggie Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I know this is directed to Dex and not me but oh, what a good point you bring up. When I realized this very thing (the PA) was really a result of my H's issues within himself more than being directed at me...it was a HUGE turning point in my recovery. Once I quit obsessing about "how could he do this to ME" and I looked more at what had been going on with him--it really made me re-assess his actions. This realization was made in IC/MC for my H and me. Yup, it was selfish on his part--but it had less to do with me than issues he was facing within himself. Yes, it was partially a result of a disconnect between us-things I had done/not done-but really it was about him. So, yes in some cases not all infidelity is not about doing something to your spouse but rather doing something for yourself. It's a case of "it's all about me." But not with evil intent-selfish yes--but not necessarily with the actual intent to go out and hurt your spouse. It's self-absorption to the extreme-but not with the intent to be outright cruel to your spouse. There is a difference...some people will understand it and some people will not. I'm probably not explaining this well - but kansas I get exactly what you're saying. Yes, but the cruelty aspect that is intentionally directed at the Bs is the gaslighting and blameshifting that the Ws does to justify the affair. I don't think there can be any debate that these things, which accompany most cheating, are deliberate and absolutely directed/done to the BS with malice.
soserious1 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 To me, when people are out there having affairs what they are saying is that "it's all about me" the sex itself to me is immaterial.. the days,weeks, months or even years of lying, the time factor... when you're conducting an affair you're stealing time away from your spouse, kids, job, extended family, friends. In many cases you're using a disproportionate share of family fiscal resources as well. To all of this I say that the day the affair is discovered focus shifts.. the deceived spouse then gets to have their own "it's all about me" time. The cheated on partner gets to decide what will make them most comfortable. For me, divorce would be the only option, the thought that a person stood there and lied to my face repeatedly shows me that this person will throw me under the bus without a minute's hesitation. I'm with Dexter on this one, divorce would be the only option I would chose.
Reggie Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 To me, when people are out there having affairs what they are saying is that "it's all about me" the sex itself to me is immaterial.. the days,weeks, months or even years of lying, the time factor... when you're conducting an affair you're stealing time away from your spouse, kids, job, extended family, friends. In many cases you're using a disproportionate share of family fiscal resources as well. To all of this I say that the day the affair is discovered focus shifts.. the deceived spouse then gets to have their own "it's all about me" time. The cheated on partner gets to decide what will make them most comfortable. For me, divorce would be the only option, the thought that a person stood there and lied to my face repeatedly shows me that this person will throw me under the bus without a minute's hesitation. I'm with Dexter on this one, divorce would be the only option I would chose. These are good points. Fpr many, the abuse attendant to the affair demonstrates with clarity that one has married a partner upon whom one cannot rely. I felt that all the lying and stealing associated with my XW's affair pretty clearly showed me that she would not stand by me if the chips were down, like if I got sick or lost my job. There is so much more to infidelity than the mere sex. There is a ton of lying, and , often, very abusive behavior. The workload taking care of the kids and the house, etc, gets shifted to the BS, instead of shared. In my case, significant financial resources were also diverted from the family to the affair. Best thing for me was to divorce, as their was no remorse or ownership.
Owl Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 The first part Owl explained much better than I could. Plus, he used Shaboink in a sentence (extra points!). I'd like to point out that not only did I use it TWICE, I also used it in two different tenses as well! Regardless of "intent to hurt"...there is always that knowledge that the WS's spouses WILL hurt their BS. My wife knew it. Her OM knew it. It didn't stop either of them from proceeding when it came down to it. Part of that is the "affair fog" that they wrap themselves in...they try to cling to the belief that reality will never intrude on their fantasy world...that they'll never actually SEE that damage occur.
Reggie Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I agree ,it is rare that they "intend" to hurt. As a matter of fact, most would prefer the BS never go wind of it. But, the callous way they disregard the potential for harm is pretty clear evidence that they do not give a **** about you(and the kids, too). A person capable of putting you in this much harm's way just does not love you, as I understand the concept.
Owl Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 It's not that they don't love you. It's that they love themselves more than they love you. They actively made the choice to pursue something selishly for themselves, knowingly at the expense of the BS. I would disagree that "they don't love you"...but for the duration of the affair, their FOCUS completely shifts off of anything outside of themselves and what makes them feel good. After the affair, that focus can shift back to normal.
Snowflower Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 [quote=Owl;212628 Don't give him too much credit here, friend. But that does not negate the CHOICE to cheat...the CHOICE to inflict that harm purely out of selfish motives to get what they wanted...the other person. See the deal here? I think I'm too compassionate for my own good! You bring up good points, owl. And you gave me some things to think about...I thought about what you said overnight and I think you have some valid points. Maybe I am cutting my H too much slack or giving him too much credit. I still think there is an important distinction--yes an affair is completely selfish. But the motive behind it can make a difference. And in my H's case, it wasn't the other person that he wanted--OW could have been ANYBODY (which is why I feel no real animosity toward her now). He wasn't leaving me to be with her--he "left" me in a sense to figure out how to fill a void within himself. And he tried to fill that void in a disastrous manner-the A.The other person and the A were symptoms of a larger issue within himself and to a smaller degree-our marriage.
Snowflower Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Yes, but the cruelty aspect that is intentionally directed at the Bs is the gaslighting and blameshifting that the Ws does to justify the affair. I don't think there can be any debate that these things, which accompany most cheating, are deliberate and absolutely directed/done to the BS with malice. Can someone explain to me exactly what 'gaslighting' is? I think I have a pretty good idea-I would just like to know for sure. Actually, my H didn't lie to me to the extent I have heard about here in others' situations. My H's affair was a very short-lived event - so the other cruelty did not really occur at least in my situation. Not that things were perfect between H and me but we had been having some pretty serious issues before this and at the time I thought it was just "more of the same." But yes, the lying, the time spent away from home, money spent on the A would be very destructive and as bad, or worse than the actual betrayal. Fortunately, this didn't happen in my situation.
Tired03 Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 Gaslighting is the act of lying and making the other person think that they are crazy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting is a good explanation of it and where the term comes from. I don't think it fits into all affair situations - some are lies by omission, some are outright lies but the spouse suspects nothing - but I think it does fit into some, where the BS suspects something and the WS makes them feel crazy by repeated denials and making them doubt themselves.
Snowflower Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 It's not that they don't love you. It's that they love themselves more than they love you. They actively made the choice to pursue something selishly for themselves, knowingly at the expense of the BS. I would disagree that "they don't love you"...but for the duration of the affair, their FOCUS completely shifts off of anything outside of themselves and what makes them feel good. After the affair, that focus can shift back to normal. I really like this post, owl. Thanks for writing this. I think it is true in many affair situations, including my own. Selfishness is a horrible behavior. When I really think about it now--my OWN selfish act (no, it was not any type of affair on my part-but selfish to the extreme nonetheless)-done by me just shortly before my husband's A...I now think was the catalyst for a lot of his behavior. I like what you said here-that you can love someone but still have the ability to be selfish and at least for a little while, love yourself more. Yet, you can still love the other person (your spouse) but disregard/ignore/not consider what the other person will feel.
Reggie Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think this perception that they love us at the same time they cheat cannot really be determined. I suppose everyone defines love differently. I know for me, exposing someone to such incredible trauma does not seem loving. So, I reach the conclusion that my spouse was not in love with me. Fact is that even without infidelity, there will be times in many relationships where folks do not like or love each other. That is where integrity comes in. Cheaters are deficient in this area. They need to fix that within themselves if they are to be in committed relationships. Owl, I doubt your wife loved you when she was with another guy. They stop loving the Bs when they are involved with someone else.
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