Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 So what you're saying is that - Assuming my husband & I had split up. He would NEVER EVER again have those horrific images, feelings of betrayal etc (that you think everyone should have after this experience) ...They would just forever disappear out of his mind - never to return. .....Interesting Nope. I would be a prime example of that. I still think about it from time to time now that I am divorced from my xW, but I can actually laugh at it...it doesn't bother me, I'm not hurt by it because she is no longer significant to me. She is someone elses problem. If I WERE to have stayed married to her, then reliving those images would bring back the pain since she would still be someone I'd have to deal with every day of my life. I'd still have to deal with coming to terms that I kept a woman that did that to me. I'd have to deal with feelings of, "will this ever happen again". so if you were divorced, the images would still pop up to him now and then most likely, but the hurtful things associated with those images would no longer have the power to hurt.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 So it's not possible for 2 people to remain married out of Love AND Convenience. What's wrong with having both. What's wrong with being in love & being content with one another? thats just it, being content is how I see it being. Both parties may think the marriage is great, may even think the marriage is "better" than before...but especially in the case of one of the spouses cheating, there will always be something with the BS that isn't quite just right. no matter how miniscule the feeling, something will always be amiss with the betrayed party.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 It's not my story - it's OUR story. We all hae contributed. I was merely asking you a question. I think you can have it all To me, having it "all" would include having a spouse the didn't go out and screw another guy:o but thats me
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 This isn't going to come out right....& I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it....BUT Dexter: Do you ever let anything go? Do you ever let behaviors slide? What, may I ask makes you think she did this TO you? Perhaps she just did it for herself. Selfish, Yep...But something to think about.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 It's not my story - it's OUR story. We all hae contributed. I was merely asking you a question. I think you can have it all Touche... lol. I think the two should to go together, and it's bad if they are separate. If you are content without love... or love but not content, problems will follow. That is my view on it anyway.
Owl Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Tired, you asked me what the "line" was from my perspective in an EA. Someone else had answered with it already. Is it "when you keep aspects of your friendship a secret from your partner?" This is it, specifically. It's when you begin hiding it from your spouse. It's when you know that you SHOULD tell them, but you choose not to because you know that you're wrong for doing so. Someone else responded with: If a friend asked you to keep a secret, you are expected to keep it a secret as long as the secret does not affect your relationship with your SO or spouse. I disagree. ALL of my friends clearly understand something...I don't keep ANYTHING secret from my wife. If a friend tells me something "in confidence"...I make sure that it's clearly understood that anything I discuss with them will almost certainly be discussed with my wife. Now...my wife won't share with anyone else, nor will I share anything told as a secret to my wife with anyone else. But I won't keep secrets from her, nor will I accept secrets being kept from me. There is NO reason for it whatsoever. If a friend isn't comfortable with that (and I've had this happen)...then I tell them not to share that secret with me. It's their choice. My wife/marriage is a higher priority than ANY friendship. PERIOD. Again...black and white thinking here. When you deliberately begin keeping aspects of your friendship/relationship hidden from your spouse because you know that they wouldn't approve of those aspects...you've crossed a boundary.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 OWL....What you said brings up an interesting question. Do all of our spouses know we post here? Not that it's intimate - or that we actually KNOW each other, because we don't. This is all posted anonymously......But is this considered being secretive from our significant others?
Tired03 Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Thanks Owl - I was actually the one that asked the question, because to me, the secrecy is the issue as well. But other people draw the line at "feelings of love". I'm sure others think feelings of love are okay (as occasionally happen in crushes etc.) but that the expression is not.... The point I was really trying to make, and my god we have drawn this out, is that the slide into an EA can be gray. Different people are okay with different levels of closeness between their spouse and other people. And that an EA doesn't have ONE clear boundary that is the same for all people as to "this is when it's an EA". This makes it gray, a slippery slope, a frog in the pot etc. *sigh* that was a lot of conversation just to get that across.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 This isn't going to come out right....& I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it....BUT Dexter: Do you ever let anything go? Do you ever let behaviors slide? What, may I ask makes you think she did this TO you? Perhaps she just did it for herself. Selfish, Yep...But something to think about. Life isn't fair, but some people seek fairness more than others. That may account for the difference your feeling with Dex. To my mind... if someone loved me on tuesday, didn't love me on wednesday, but come friday was in love again... That person has lost value to me. I couldn't be married to someone I don't value. So, it's not about letting go... it's about settling, and I'm not going to settle because I am worth more than that.
Owl Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 The slide into an EA isn't a slide tho. Here's the thing...I just posted this same comment over on KG's thread. An EA is NOT an accident. We're ALL attracted to people outside of our marriages. I am. I freely admit that. It's what we DO with that attraction that gets us into grey areas and bad choices. Example...I've worked with a number of attractive ladies in my years. Ones that are attractive in all facets, not just physically. First off...I recognzie and acknowledge that attraction to myself. NOT to her. Second...knowing that I'm attracted, I deliberately take actions to prevent that attraction from growing. I do NOT take projects with them, I do NOT do any kind of interaction with them outside of day to day work. No personal interaction of ANY kind. I don't allow myself to fantasize about them in any fashion...or dwell on them in any fashion. I don't give the attraction anything to feed on. It can't grow if I don't feed it. It never gets the CHANCE to become more than a passing attraction. It's when you CHOOSE to start feeding that attraction, knowing the risk, that you take your FIRST step. That's the "grey part". But seeing it as a black and white choice lets you see it clearly as a CHOICE. It lets you own it...and avoid the trap. Feeling the attraction is one thing. But learning to recognize it and STOP FEEDING IT is the first step towards preventing things. And on the other side...knowing you're attracted, but then DELIBERATELY letting yourself feed the attraction is the start down the path.
Owl Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 OWL....What you said brings up an interesting question. Do all of our spouses know we post here? Not that it's intimate - or that we actually KNOW each other, because we don't. This is all posted anonymously......But is this considered being secretive from our significant others? I can't speak for anyone else, but posting here without your spouse knowing could indeed be "keeping a secret"...it would be in my book. AND...internet affairs happen. PM'ing with someone can lead to that if you don't take active measures to prevent it from going further. Ensuring your spouse has access to your LS account could be a good start towards that.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 This isn't going to come out right....& I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it....BUT Dexter: Do you ever let anything go? Do you ever let behaviors slide? What, may I ask makes you think she did this TO you? Perhaps she just did it for herself. Selfish, Yep...But something to think about. I know this is directed to Dex and not me but oh, what a good point you bring up. When I realized this very thing (the PA) was really a result of my H's issues within himself more than being directed at me...it was a HUGE turning point in my recovery. Once I quit obsessing about "how could he do this to ME" and I looked more at what had been going on with him--it really made me re-assess his actions. This realization was made in IC/MC for my H and me. Yup, it was selfish on his part--but it had less to do with me than issues he was facing within himself. Yes, it was partially a result of a disconnect between us-things I had done/not done-but really it was about him. So, yes in some cases not all infidelity is not about doing something to your spouse but rather doing something for yourself. It's a case of "it's all about me." But not with evil intent-selfish yes--but not necessarily with the actual intent to go out and hurt your spouse. It's self-absorption to the extreme-but not with the intent to be outright cruel to your spouse. There is a difference...some people will understand it and some people will not. I'm probably not explaining this well - but kansas I get exactly what you're saying.
Tired03 Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I also get it. Intent to hurt someone is entirely different than not thinking about the effect on someone else. To take this example outside of the cheating example: Selfishness I look at the banana on the table, and eat it (selfishly), even though I know my husband loves bananas. I didn't eat it to spite him, I ate it because for whatever reason I was hungry. I didn't think about the fact that he loved bananas, that he might need that for his run, and that that last banana might be really important to him. (Wow, this is a bad analogy - I fully realize this) Intent to Hurt I see the banana on the table and I think to myself, man, if I ate that banana that would really p*ss him off, wouldn't it. I mean, that would really just yank his chain. (And then ate the banana)
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 I chuckle at the analagies...While very true, a bit humorous as well. But I get it!!
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 When I realized this very thing (the PA) was really a result of my H's issues within himself more than being directed at me...it was a HUGE turning point in my recovery. Once I quit obsessing about "how could he do this to ME" and I looked more at what had been going on with him--it really made me re-assess his actions. There is a difference...some people will understand it and some people will not. I'm probably not explaining this well - but kansas I get exactly what you're saying. Wait, I don't get why that difference matters? If it makes sense you should be able to explain it to me.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 This isn't going to come out right....& I'm sure I'll catch some flack for it....BUT Dexter: Do you ever let anything go? Do you ever let behaviors slide? No, with regards to cheating, I don't let that behavior slide. What, may I ask makes you think she did this TO you? Perhaps she just did it for herself. Selfish, Yep...But something to think about. The way I see it, she did it FOR herself AND TO me. So what is your point?
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Wait, I don't get why that difference matters? If it makes sense you should be able to explain it to me. Untouch - why are you always on me? Nothing I explain is ever good enough although I don't see why it matters to you. Okay, I will attempt to explain - although the banana example was very good. My H had his A (WRONG as it is) but he didn't go out to have it with the intent to hurt me. Yes, it hurt me obviously. I don't think he really even thought of what he was doing to me at the time--he was dealing with his own stuff and thinking about himself. Now if my H had gone out to have an affair with the thought of "my wife is such a b***** I can't stand her...who cares what she thinks...I want to have my fun and the h**** with her"-then that would be a whole different scenario. But, that isn't what happened in my case anyway. I'm sure it does happen for some people but that wasn't my situation.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I also get it. Intent to hurt someone is entirely different than not thinking about the effect on someone else. To take this example outside of the cheating example: Selfishness I look at the banana on the table, and eat it (selfishly), even though I know my husband loves bananas. I didn't eat it to spite him, I ate it because for whatever reason I was hungry. I didn't think about the fact that he loved bananas, that he might need that for his run, and that that last banana might be really important to him. (Wow, this is a bad analogy - I fully realize this) Intent to Hurt I see the banana on the table and I think to myself, man, if I ate that banana that would really p*ss him off, wouldn't it. I mean, that would really just yank his chain. (And then ate the banana) I understand that there is a difference, but the results are the same, and in both instances you intentionally hurt him. Plus, the more he wants a banana, the more damaging your actions will be.
Dexter Morgan Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I know this is directed to Dex and not me but oh, what a good point you bring up. When I realized this very thing (the PA) was really a result of my H's issues within himself more than being directed at me...it was a HUGE turning point in my recovery. I don't think thats what she said or meant. She said: "What, may I ask makes you think she did this TO you? Perhaps she just did it for herself." Wasn't saying it was something "within" my xW...she was trying to say, I believe, that she cheated FOR herself....translation, she was treating herself. Saying that in an attempt to get to this poor ol' xBS:o If so, nice try:cool:
Tired03 Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Nope, in the first instance I did not intentionally hurt him. Didn't even cross my mind that he'd want a banana. Nary a flicker. That is the difference between intent and selfishness. And it does matter, that's why it's brought up in investigations (motive) into deaths etc. Selfishness/Stupidity Think about this, my dog is behind my lawnmower. I back up, without looking, and run over the dog ('course, I'd have a hard time doing this, he's 85 lbs, but I digress). End result? Dead dog. Intent Dog craps on my floor AGAIN, I get on the lawnmower and think, I'm going to kill this dog. Run over him (forwards or backwards, doesn't matter). End result? Dead dog. There's a difference. A BIG difference.
Tired03 Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Oh, and for the record, as mad as I've gotten at my dog in the past, I do not wish any harm upon my dog. I love my dog and was solely using him as an example.
Snowflower Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 I understand that there is a difference, but the results are the same, and in both instances you intentionally hurt him. Plus, the more he wants a banana, the more damaging your actions will be. Yes the results are the same. The innocent spouse gets hurt. The difference is the INTENT which is what I spoke about in my post. Yes, both actions are selfish but the intent is different in each action. And I'm talking about my marriage and the banana example. Maybe everyone should divorce once their spouse does something 'selfish' because it is the end result, the hurt caused, not the intent, right?
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Untouch - why are you always on me? Nothing I explain is ever good enough although I don't see why it matters to you. My H had his A (WRONG as it is) but he didn't go out to have it with the intent to hurt me. Yes, it hurt me obviously. I don't think he really even thought of what he was doing to me at the time--he was dealing with his own stuff and thinking about himself. Now if my H had gone out to have an affair with the thought of "my wife is such a b***** I can't stand her...who cares what she thinks...I want to have my fun and the h**** with her"-then that would be a whole different scenario. But, that isn't what happened in my case anyway. I'm sure it does happen for some people but that wasn't my situation. Because you sound like one of my exes. Why does that matter to you though? (the banana analogy was good!) It just doesn't make sense to say one is better than the other unless you believe he is more fixable in one of the two states?
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 9, 2009 Author Posted April 9, 2009 No, with regards to cheating, I don't let that behavior slide.The way I see it, she did it FOR herself AND TO me. So what is your point? My point is.......Perhaps she did it for herself AND in the big scheme of things it had nothing at all whatsoever to do with YOU. Yes, you got hurt in the end. That's obvious. But do you hold on to this for the rest of your life? Thinking she stuck it to you!!!!! For myself...I did not do it TO my husband. For me it was an escape. Escaping from dealing with HIM on a daily basis. It made it not quite so difficult knowing I had someone else there. HE was dealing with his issues in the marriage his way, This is just the way I chose to deal with them. Had nothing to do with HIM and everything to do with ME.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 9, 2009 Posted April 9, 2009 Maybe everyone should divorce once their spouse does something 'selfish' because it is the end result, the hurt caused, not the intent, right? Your assuming that those two things are separate, however they are not. Yes, he was selfish... and Yes he did intend to hurt. There is absolutely no way he could have been ignorant of the consequences to you by doing this. Your just giving preeminence of one over the other, ignoring that they exist side by side.
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