Does it always end in divorce?

[Snowflower]

 

And Snowflower, I'm sorry to hear about your situation (I missed your post earlier...somehow) but I do believe that men (and women) can have purely physical affairs. And purely emotional affairs, and combinations of the two.

 

Thanks

 

I guess I diverge in my thinking from a lot of people because, IMO a purely physical affair is not as harmful as an emotional affair. I know a lot of people will disagree with me. And no, a PA is very harmful--it has hurt me very deeply.

 

But, I vehemently disagree with people who think emotional affairs are not as "bad" as PAs because there was no sex. But, that's just me.

 

I hate what my H did (the PA) it is disgusting and the mental images disturb me. But, the thought of him loving someone else-thinking of them the way he thought of me (with feelings of love, caring and affection) would be a MUCH worse mental image for me to overcome. In fact, I think that would have been the "line in the sand" for me as mentioned here. I don't think I could have continued in the marriage-knowing that he gave that much of himself emotionally to someone else.

 

I don't discount the physical part-it is extremely difficult for me to work through, almost unbearable at times. But, I can put it in perspective--it was just sex--as wrong as it was. And yes, he went and got tested so the physical threat was gone. Besides, it wasn't like my H had never been with someone else besides me--he DID have a life before he met and married me.

[Dexter Morgan]

Going back to the original question........

Does it always end in divorce? Obviously NO...they don't all end in divorce.

One poster said~ every marriage ends in divorce & if they don't divorce they are unhappy - I don't buy into that theory.

 

 

Ok, so you say you are completely happy. So let me ask you this, do either of you NEVER bring up the affair again, or even throw it in each other's face once in a blue moon?

 

Mind you, I'm not asking if you both do this and get into a knock down drag out, but not even just a little jab to one another and let it go?

 

Are there now boundaries you have set....certain behaviors, like partying, that you both agree shouldn't happen again?

[Tired03]

For the purpose of this post and argument, the minute you turn your "platonic" relationship, whether it be with a co-worker, fe/male friend into more than "just friends" is when you begin to develop certain romantic feelings and you two start spending more time outside of work and your spouse is unaware. In thise scenario, there is no gray area. It's now black and white. You have now taken "inappropriate" step over the line, outside of your marriage. You've turn the "just friend" into an emotional affair. That line is as black as they come.

 

Okay, so your definition is when you develop certain romantic feelings. That's your line in the sand.

 

I've read other lines in the sand that were different.

 

This is why I believe it to be gray For Owl, my friendships etc. were risky behavior setting me up for an affair - for you, these were healthy activities that should not impact my marriage.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

[Tired03]

But, I vehemently disagree with people who think emotional affairs are not as "bad" as PAs because there was no sex. But, that's just me.

 

I hate what my H did (the PA) it is disgusting and the mental images disturb me. But, the thought of him loving someone else-thinking of them the way he thought of me (with feelings of love, caring and affection) would be a MUCH worse mental image for me to overcome. In fact, I think that would have been the "line in the sand" for me as mentioned here. I don't think I could have continued in the marriage-knowing that he gave that much of himself emotionally to someone else.

 

Actually Snowflower, I agree with you *smile* I think, of the two, I would rather my H have a ONS or purely physical affair (given that he would have to be tested etc.) rather than an EA. 'Course, in reality I'd rather he have neither, but I'm not naive enough to not think that either of those scenarios might occur

[Tired03]

And I think this is where you have a problem distinguishing the difference between gray vs. black and white.

 

Ooh, I totally missed this.

 

I just don't believe black and white to exist *in general*. Not that it really has a bearing on my discussion here other than to explain the person that I am.

 

I'm not confused about anything - I see what you are saying, and I just don't agree

 

For one person it is not the act but the intent (for instance, cheating in an open marriage - it happens), for another it's the secrecy, for another it's the friendship outside the marriage at all.

 

That's what makes it gray - the different definitions of what constitutes an emotional affair or the boundaries leading up to it.

[confusedinkansas]

Ok, so you say you are completely happy. So let me ask you this, do either of you NEVER bring up the affair again, or even throw it in each other's face once in a blue moon?

 

Mind you, I'm not asking if you both do this and get into a knock down drag out, but not even just a little jab to one another and let it go?

 

Are there now boundaries you have set....certain behaviors, like partying, that you both agree shouldn't happen again?

 

Up until last night - I or he hadn't mentioned my affair since counseling a year ago - & it wasn't mentioned for years before that. No we don't use it as ammo on either end in an arguement. No jabs.

 

Yes, there are bounderies. I set mine myself. He has set his. I know what it takes to make me happy & our marriage a happy one...He does too.

[Reggie]

I don't know if there is a universal line for EA's . But, I think it is pretty easy to distinguish infidelity from friendship etc. As someone pointed out, I think there is an element of romance, and, clearly , secrecy. There is a distancing emotionally from the BS and a lack of investment in the marriage. Hugging, talking, etc can all be done without these other components.

Essentially, to me. an EA takes place when one displaces the spouse with another in the areas of romance and intimacy, when one starts to romantically love another. I really think this is pretty easy to perceive when it is happening.

[NewSunrise]

Okay, so your definition is when you develop certain romantic feelings. That's your line in the sand.

Duh,...hmmm... let's see....IF I develop romantic feelings for someone who IS NOT my SO or S, I wonder what flavor I'll get? Rocky Road?...

 

Then I read another one of your replies:

I would rather my H have a ONS or purely physical affair (given that he would have to be tested etc.) rather than an EA.

Maybe the Rocky Road won't apply at all...

 

I'm not confused about anything - I see what you are saying, and I just don't agree

 

For one person it is not the act but the intent (for instance, cheating in an open marriage - it happens), for another it's the secrecy, for another it's the friendship outside the marriage at all.

Huh? I tell you what Tired03, let's just agree to disagree on this one.

 

Going back to original poster, some M do end up in D while some as in OWL's case survive.

 

Along with Dex's questions and mine posted earlier, have you and your H "re-established" new boundaries?

 

What are you doing this time around to try to salvage your M?

[Dexter Morgan]

Yes, there are bounderies. I set mine myself. He has set his. I know what it takes to make me happy & our marriage a happy one...He does too.

 

What are those boundaries? I am curious.

 

Do you refrain from certain social interactions without each other?

[Tired03]

Duh,...hmmm... let's see....IF I develop romantic feelings for someone who IS NOT my SO or S, I wonder what flavor I'll get? Rocky Road?...

 

Please don't quote me out of context, the rest of my sentence explained that the line was MUCH further "back" for other people than it was for you.

 

Then I read another one of your replies:

Quote:

I would rather my H have a ONS or purely physical affair (given that he would have to be tested etc.) rather than an EA.

Maybe the Rocky Road won't apply at all...

 

What the h*ll does that mean. I was simply stating what would be easier for me to get over.

 

Huh? I tell you what Tired03, let's just agree to disagree on this one.

 

We can, but I'm not sure why you find it so difficult to understand that there have been multiple posters in this thread alone that have different definitions of what constitutes an EA, what behavior is acceptable in a marriage and whether a marriage should continue or not. And that all of those opinions are okay - and for their marriage alone.

[confusedinkansas]

What are those boundaries? I am curious.

Do you refrain from certain social interactions without each other?

 

It's called mutual love & respect.

I met the man I had the affair with thru a chat room...I don't go there anymore. I don't put myself into a situation where it could escelate beyond a friendship. I have lots of male friends, but they are also my husbands friends.

My husband on the other hand, doesn't drink during the day anymore. He packs his lunch instead of sitting in a bar during his lunch "Hour" (which always extended way beyond that)

 

It's one of those situations where you think before you act. "What would my husband/wife think".....

There were no specific rules written down & stuffed in a sock drawer.

[Snowflower]

 

Going back to the original question........

Does it always end in divorce? Obviously NO...they don't all end in divorce.

One poster said~ every marriage ends in divorce & if they don't divorce they are unhappy - I don't buy into that theory. Yes, some are unhappy (even if there is NO infidelity) & some are just too lazy to find the happiness. I do believe there are HAPPILY MARRIED couples out there. (I used to believe that those 2 words didn't belong in the same sentance) I think differently now.

 

This is a very good point. The assumption cannot be made that every marriage where there HAS been infidelity either ends in divorce or should end because no marital happiness will ever be possible.

 

OTOH, it is almost ridiculous to assume that every marriage where spouses stay faithful is automatically a "better" marriage. In one of my first posts on this thread, I mentioned my family member whose 25 year marriage is barely hanging on. The wife is seriously checked out of the marriage--does everything she can to avoid being home now that her last kid is "out of the nest." While her husband desperately tries to hang onto her and is becoming increasingly bitter about her lack of interest in him and the marriage. There has been no infidelity there.

 

When I compare their situation to my own (which you truly can't do because every marriage and individual is different) I can look at their marriage and then look at my own--I wonder who is happier in their marriage? I have to say my marriage is happier-despite my H's A because we are committed to saving it-we love each other, we love our marriage and we want to be together.

 

So, back to the original question-no, not every marriage that experiences infidelity should end in divorce. Doesn't mean that some marriages do end and should end after an A-sometimes it's just too broken. Just like every marriage where infidelity does not occur means that the marriage is happy and that the couple should stay together. Again, those shades of gray...

[Untouchable_Fire]

Lost my ability to judge? I never presumed to have that ability.

If you are Christian, you are instructed not to judge, that the Lord alone has that privilege.

If you are not Christian, most other religions have an injunction against judging.

Who am I to be judge, jury and executioner over what someone else does.

I don't think one can make the equivalent between executing women for being victims of rape and polygamy as a way of life.

Actually, as a relativist, I don't think it's silly at all. I don't believe that we can predict all events (we cannot), and I think that most things are only true as to our perception of truth. While I know that sounds completely unworkable (and I've read apologist writings, many, against that concept), what I find it to be is a reminder that my reality is not the only reality out there.

So, since you have such black and whites regarding EAs, where is the line for you? I'm sure that I could ask that question of 10 people, and get 10 different answers. Each person has to define it for themselves and their relationship, and in that way, it's very gray.

This is all I'm trying to say, and in addition, marriages can recover from way more than you give them credit for.

 

I wasn't qouting the bible, and that verse isn't up for interpretation. It means God reserves the right of FINAL judgment. It doesn't mean you can't know right from wrong. You should study up! I can't think of a religion that tells you not to make judgments. You probably do that every day when you choose to eat healthy vs. McDonalds.

 

In terms of being objective vs relative... the universe is the way it is, and no amount of wishing or believing can make it different.

 

That means you can't go into each situation believing that whatever you do is fine. You need to make positive choices, and be able to predict how those choices will affect others. This applies to EAs.

 

 

Clearly.....that wouldn't be the case. I understand that infidelity is grounds for divorce. But, lots of other things are as well. Some of the things he has done, women leave their husbands for WAY less.

He stuck it out because he loves me. I stuck it out because I love him.

We were raised that divorce isn't the answer. Clearly, we were headed in that direction, but because we persevered, we overcame a lot of obstales & we are both better for it. We're a better married couple & we are better individuals.

I asked him about the affair last night. Because after reading some of the posts here (EVERYONE is devistated & scarred for life after an affair)

He said this: "I was hurt, not devistated, when I found out. That is old news, water under the bridge. No reason to hash it out again. We're better now & we are moving forward, not looking back"

BTW: Looking back would make him have to look at HIS behaviors too.

Anyway, If he were still dwelling on this, I would know it.

 

Are you sure you both stuck it out for Love?

 

Where I in his place, I might stay for convenience and because my overall level of detachment was high enough that I didn't feel devistated.

[Tired03]

Sure it is up for as much interpretation as you want. AND *I* was quoting the bible, not you.

 

Geesh.

 

I can judge for MYSELF but I cannot judge others. I have not walked in their shoes.

 

That means you can't go into each situation believing that whatever you do is fine. You need to make positive choices, and be able to predict how those choices will affect others. This applies to EAs.

 

That's not what relativism is.

 

Are you sure you both stuck it out for Love?

 

Where I in his place, I might stay for convenience and because my overall level of detachment was high enough that I didn't feel devistated.

 

I'm astounded that you would say that to someone that has worked through their issues with their husband. What a cruel thing to say!

[confusedinkansas]

Are you sure you both stuck it out for Love?

 

Where I in his place, I might stay for convenience and because my overall level of detachment was high enough that I didn't feel devistated.

 

My goodness....You do like to split hairs don't you.

 

Why does it have to be the BE ALL & END ALL....for everyone? Everyone's emotions & feelings aren't exactly alike. (Thank goodness)

Perhaps he's not that emotional of a guy.....Perhaps he just hid his initial feelings.....Perhaps a lot of things:confused:

[Snowflower]

Are you sure you both stuck it out for Love?

 

Where I in his place, I might stay for convenience and because my overall level of detachment was high enough that I didn't feel devistated.

 

 

But, you aren't/weren't in her husband's place so no one, except for kansas' husband can know how he feels.

 

Untouch - why do you appear to get so upset with any BS who attempts to save their marriage after the WS's infidelity? You seem to have no respect for any BS who stays- which is funny because I think you were the "injured party" yourself one time. (please correct me if I'm wrong) If nothing else, I would think you would feel empathy for the BS--even if you did not agree with their decision.

 

It is everybody's own personal decision to stay or leave after their spouse has been unfaithful. This decision does not need to be justified to anyone else-not the BS's friends, family and certainly not to anyone on this forum. We are just here to help each other - not to bash someone for their decision!

[confusedinkansas]

Thank you Snowflower. Exactly what I was thinking.

[Dexter Morgan]

Untouch - why do you appear to get so upset with any BS who attempts to save their marriage after the WS's infidelity? You seem to have no respect for any BS who stays- which is funny because I think you were the "injured party" yourself one time.

 

I would never get upset with a BS that wants to stay with a cheater. I sympathize with them. However I do believe there is a better life out there for someone rather than settling for life with someone that screwed other people outside their marriage. Much better.

 

but to each his/her own. If they want to stay with their cheater and have images haunt them from time to time, no matter how infrequent or how miniscule the pain would be when reliving "the" bulls##t, godspeed to them and good luck.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Sure it is up for as much interpretation as you want. AND *I* was quoting the bible, not you.

I can judge for MYSELF but I cannot judge others. I have not walked in their shoes.

That's not what relativism is.

I'm astounded that you would say that to someone that has worked through their issues with their husband. What a cruel thing to say!

 

Any logical person would come to the same conclusion regarding that verse in context. There is no debate on it. Therefore that interpretation was incorrect.

 

Cruel? I'm surprised your willing to make that judgment seeing as how you don't understand my perspective. Perhaps you are relatively a relativist.

 

My goodness....You do like to split hairs don't you.

Why does it have to be the BE ALL & END ALL....for everyone? Everyone's emotions & feelings aren't exactly alike. (Thank goodness)

Perhaps he's not that emotional of a guy.....Perhaps he just hid his initial feelings.....Perhaps a lot of things:confused:

 

Well, it goes to the point of your thread. Since not all marriages are built the exact same the ones that are better able to survive infidelity may also be the ones where the marriage is more about convenience than emotions.

[Tired03]

Any logical person would come to the same conclusion regarding that verse in context. There is no debate on it. Therefore that interpretation was incorrect.

 

Oh of course. I see, and you're familiar with the original, I take it?

 

Cruel? I'm surprised your willing to make that judgment seeing as how you don't understand my perspective. Perhaps you are relatively a relativist

 

I don't judge people. I can judge a statement. I can also judge food, and other things.

 

Example: Judging people - You're a d!ckhead

Judging a statement - Wow, that was a mean thing to say

 

Get it?

 

I'm not sure what beef you have with me, other than the fact that I disagree with you. Sure glad this is a "discussion" board.

[confusedinkansas]

but to each his/her own. If they want to stay with their cheater and have images haunt them from time to time, no matter how infrequent or how miniscule the pain would be when reliving "the" bulls##t, godspeed to them and good luck.

 

So what you're saying is that - Assuming my husband & I had split up. He would NEVER EVER again have those horrific images, feelings of betrayal etc (that you think everyone should have after this experience)

...They would just forever disappear out of his mind - never to return.

 

.....Interesting

[Untouchable_Fire]

Untouch - why do you appear to get so upset with any BS who attempts to save their marriage after the WS's infidelity? You seem to have no respect for any BS who stays- which is funny because I think you were the "injured party" yourself one time. (please correct me if I'm wrong) If nothing else, I would think you would feel empathy for the BS--even if you did not agree with their decision.

 

I've been on both sides of that fence. I was the one who had to end the relationship on each occasion. I would say I have grown a TON since then. That shapes my perspective strongly.

 

Yes I can come across like a jerk, but I typically have a good point.

[confusedinkansas]

Well, it goes to the point of your thread. Since not all marriages are built the exact same the ones that are better able to survive infidelity may also be the ones where the marriage is more about convenience than emotions.

 

So it's not possible for 2 people to remain married out of Love AND Convenience. What's wrong with having both.

 

What's wrong with being in love & being content with one another?

[Untouchable_Fire]

So it's not possible for 2 people to remain married out of Love AND Convenience. What's wrong with having both.

What's wrong with being in love & being content with one another?

 

Which one do you feel is better? It's your story here, not mine.

[confusedinkansas]

It's not my story - it's OUR story. We all hae contributed.

I was merely asking you a question.

 

I think you can have it all