Does it always end in divorce?

[Darth Vader]

Confused, you had better hope that your Husband doesn't find another woman and fall out of love for a couple of nights, then fall back in love after he is finished. You might think differently

 

 

She clearly couldn't handle it! She'd divorce him.........

[Snowflower]

 

In the case of an ONS, or purely physical PA (that starts as a PA) - yes, that is often black and white.

 

EAs are not that way...not in the least.

 

Oh, don't go here with this...this is exactly what my H did (PA) and I was severely bashed here for believing it was only a PA and therefore not as "bad."

 

But I agree with you...and yes, there are many shades of gray!

[NewSunrise]

Well, not really, we don't, but that's neither here nor there. We're not genetically programmed for monogamy. And no, we're not all equipped with common sense - what's the saying? Common sense...isn't.

You're right. Not ALL humans are equipped with common sense---explains why some people are in jail.

 

What I wrote:

we all come equipped with certain undeniable "common sense" knowledge that cheating is wrong.

Anyone reading LS has "certain" undeniable common sense of understanding the predictable consequences once the line is crossed.

 

It's also common sense that people live in gray area. The choice to cheat doesn't belong in that gray area. There is no "gray line" when it comes to one spouse's intent to cross the line. They either stay within the boundaries of the M or they don't.

 

Anyone can use the "gray" line concept in other forms of our social beings, but it's not an excuse to forego certain rules. After all, rules are what guide this socially innate and monogomous/homonogamous (or whatever side of the fence you're in; left brain,right brain..whatever) human race of ours to not commit unto others that would offend, hurt or intend to hurt and cause damage to another.

[Tired03]

Anyone reading LS has "certain" undeniable common sense of understanding the predictable consequences once the line is crossed.

 

Any regular reader, yes - but most people who start a post here being someone who cheated, weren't regular readers to begin with.

It's also common sense that people live in gray area. The choice to cheat doesn't belong in that gray area. There is no "gray line" when it comes to one spouse's intent to cross the line. They either stay within the boundaries of the M or they don't.[/quote

 

Again, I respectfully disagree with regard to EAs. PAs are a little easier to define. But an EA can sneak up on one like the frog in the pot.

 

Anyone can use the "gray" line concept in other forms of our social beings, but it's not an excuse to forego certain rules. After all, rules are what guide this socially innate and monogomous human race of ours to not commit unto others that would offend, hurt or intend to hurt and cause damage to another.

 

Ah, but the human race IS NOT monogamous. Many societies are, and some are not.

 

If Rules did anything, there would be no issues whatsoever, we've got rules out the wazoo and people break them all the time. This is, perhaps, a bit off topic, but rules aren't the answer to society's ills.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, not really, we don't, but that's neither here nor there. We're not genetically programmed for monogamy. And no, we're not all equipped with common sense - what's the saying? Common sense...isn't.

 

Actually, the funny thing about this, is that I disagree. I'm a relativist (and a realist) and I believe that there is no such thing as truth, that there is only perception. I live in shades of gray. Can you tell my parents met in philosophy class?

 

Genetically we are programmed for both. We are designed to be flexible... that's how we survive.

 

Philosophy is simply an abstract of real life. Unfortunately that is where relativism fails... real life.

 

I assume you are referencing moral relativism. Relativism in general is kind of silly and relies solely on the premise that nobody can know anything. That is clearly wrong... otherwise we would never be able to predict events.

 

Can you tell I tend to be an Objectivist? I believe the world exists independent of human thinking. It's too bad your parents didn't meet in science class.

 

Yep 32 years, lots of baggage...lots of good stuff....& some bad stuff.

Why can't you "Be comfortable & Be in love?"

 

You can be comfortable, you can be in love, and you can do them both at the same time... in fact I recommend it. However, you should not make the mistake of thinking they are the same thing.

[NewSunrise]

Again, I respectfully disagree with regard to EAs. PAs are a little easier to define. But an EA can sneak up on one like the frog in the pot.

EA, PA...is still cheating.

Ah, but the human race IS NOT monogamous. Many societies are, and some are not.

OK, you were quick on the button as I was editing. I was editing with the following:

 

Monogamous/homogamous, right brain, left brain, whatever....rules are what guide this human race to some extent. One either behave within the boundaries of the M or they don't. You brought up "gray lines". BTW, with topic at hand, let's narrow the subject to a "society" in which a M is between TWO people.

 

Imagine if there weren't some rules in a M? At this point, what point is there to be married if such gray area includes the ability to cheat?

 

If Rules did anything, there would be no issues whatsoever, we've got rules out the wazoo and people break them all the time. This is, perhaps, a bit off topic, but rules aren't the answer to society's ills.

Rules exist because society (you and me)requires and demands it. I'm sure cheating isn't part of the deal in the R you're in. I'm also assuming that's a self-imposed rule, at least for me. This was never a gray rule for me, and never will.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Ah, but the human race IS NOT monogamous. Many societies are, and some are not.

 

What is that supposed to mean?

 

Some societies execute women for being victims of rape. Are you saying that they are moral to do so?

 

Perhaps in your quest to not be judgmental... you have lost your ability to judge.

 

If Rules did anything, there would be no issues whatsoever, we've got rules out the wazoo and people break them all the time. This is, perhaps, a bit off topic, but rules aren't the answer to society's ills.

 

Neither is removing those rules.

[Reggie]

I don't view infidelity as breaking a rule. Rather it is breaking a vow. Big difference. The rule may have been put in place by others and you may not agree with it.

The vow, on the otherhand, is something you undertake voluntarily and which is relied on by the other person. There is a huge element of misrepresentation.

We are not wired for many things that we undertake to do for the good of others. That does not absolve us when we break our promises.

[Tired03]

Lost my ability to judge? I never presumed to have that ability.

 

If you are Christian, you are instructed not to judge, that the Lord alone has that privilege.

 

If you are not Christian, most other religions have an injunction against judging.

 

Who am I to be judge, jury and executioner over what someone else does.

 

I don't think one can make the equivalent between executing women for being victims of rape and polygamy as a way of life.

 

Actually, as a relativist, I don't think it's silly at all. I don't believe that we can predict all events (we cannot), and I think that most things are only true as to our perception of truth. While I know that sounds completely unworkable (and I've read apologist writings, many, against that concept), what I find it to be is a reminder that my reality is not the only reality out there.

 

Regarding my R, I didn't sign up for abuse either, yet I suffered it. And though my marriage went through hell and back, my husband and I discovered what the root causes were of the abuse, he remedied many of those things (I remedied others) and we now have a closer relationship than we had at the beginning, even prior to the abuse occurring.

 

So, since you have such black and whites regarding EAs, where is the line for you? I'm sure that I could ask that question of 10 people, and get 10 different answers. Each person has to define it for themselves and their relationship, and in that way, it's very gray.

 

This is all I'm trying to say, and in addition, marriages can recover from way more than you give them credit for.

[Mr. Lucky]

 

Its true. I have forgiven my H his infidelity. I think I am about as past it as Im going to get. We are happily married, and I'm happy. Any issues left are for me to work out within me. But yes, sometimes it just comes up, and then I'm POd again.

 

Its isnt going to go away. I'm OK with that, lots of things dont go away - its called experience, good & bad.

 

But for people who are asking how long? When will it stop/go away?

Never.

2sure, I think you posted once that both you and your H had been unfaithful.

 

Does a spouse that has had an affair have any different perspective or responsibility regarding their partner's infidelity come D Day? How about a spouse with an undiscovered affair?

 

Mr. Lucky

[RecordProducer]

FF.....Now......I honestly can't remember the last time we were this happy. Lots of things (besides affairs) can tear a couple apart.

I agree.

1. Can you please share how you got to the point where you're happy together?

2. Were you happy prior to the affairs?

3. Were the affairs the main bad thing?

4. Did you both change and become more understanding or sweeter or...? 5. Did one of you chase the other one or was it a mutual decision/desire to start from scratch?

6. Did it happen spontaneously or did you verbally agree to give it another shot?

7. Do you still argue sometimes?

8. How long after the happy period started?

9. How long have you been married?

 

Thanks x 9.

[Reggie]

Lost my ability to judge? I never presumed to have that ability.

 

If you are Christian, you are instructed not to judge, that the Lord alone has that privilege.

 

If you are not Christian, most other religions have an injunction against judging.

 

Who am I to be judge, jury and executioner over what someone else does.

 

I don't think one can make the equivalent between executing women for being victims of rape and polygamy as a way of life.

 

Actually, as a relativist, I don't think it's silly at all. I don't believe that we can predict all events (we cannot), and I think that most things are only true as to our perception of truth. While I know that sounds completely unworkable (and I've read apologist writings, many, against that concept), what I find it to be is a reminder that my reality is not the only reality out there.

 

Regarding my R, I didn't sign up for abuse either, yet I suffered it. And though my marriage went through hell and back, my husband and I discovered what the root causes were of the abuse, he remedied many of those things (I remedied others) and we now have a closer relationship than we had at the beginning, even prior to the abuse occurring.

 

So, since you have such black and whites regarding EAs, where is the line for you? I'm sure that I could ask that question of 10 people, and get 10 different answers. Each person has to define it for themselves and their relationship, and in that way, it's very gray.

 

This is all I'm trying to say, and in addition, marriages can recover from way more than you give them credit for.

 

I make a distinction between judging someone's actions and forever condemning them.

The admonition against judging others does not mean we do not use our judgement. Clearly, it would be unwise to suspend one's judgement in making important decisions. I would not let Charlie Manson babysit. It is clear to me that his actions reveal his character.

Same with getting involved in a relationship with someone with a history of cheating. It is dangerous and one runs the risk of facing severe trauma.

Cheating is not just about the infidelity. It invariably involves gaslighting(terribly criuel), blameshifting toward one already severely damaged by the betrayal, depletion of assets and the theft of another's time. There are also very real health risks.

So, I think it is neccessary to make judgements about the characterof folks based on their histories. It's self preservation.

[NewSunrise]

I don't view infidelity as breaking a rule. Rather it is breaking a vow. Big difference. The rule may have been put in place by others and you may not agree with it.

Huh? You say poh-tah-toe. I say poh-tay-toe. So what do you mean exactly?

 

Vows may be written and spoken during the blissful ceremony. Part of the vow is the "unwritten rule" that both parties "agree" to a certain behavior and respect for the other.

 

Let's face it, marriage IS not just an emotional agreement between two people in love. It's also a business transaction or contract where both parties mutually come to an agreement combining their lives, finances and history together. If one person wants to break any part of the agreement, the other person has the right to know and assess what steps to take. But once a contract has been breached, the person harmed may never be able to trust that partner again and may decide to break away from the partnership. Would you continue doing business with someone who intentionally screwed you over? Marriage is no different. It takes nano seconds to break a rule/vow in a R. But it can take years to rebuild. Many just can't be saved.

 

Tired03: If you are Christian, you are instructed not to judge, that the Lord alone has that privilege.

 

If you are not Christian, most other religions have an injunction against judging.

Double huh?

 

What does religion have anything to do with this topic? Ok, Tired...you're really stretching it...Let's not hijack this thread with religion.

 

BTW, I'm not "Christian". I was raised Catholic, introduced to Baptist, Protestant and Lutheran; have friends who are Muslims, Jewish , Buddhists, and Mormons. The way I see it, there is ONE "spiritual" God we check in with and seek from time to time.

 

Judging anyone has no bearing to what religion they belong. We are ONE race---human race. It's our belief system, namely reglion and culture that attemts to segregate and break the human race apart. So don't even bring Christianity or religion bull crap to this forum.

[NewSunrise]

So, since you have such black and whites regarding EAs, where is the line for you? I'm sure that I could ask that question of 10 people, and get 10 different answers. Each person has to define it for themselves and their relationship, and in that way, it's very gray.

Allow me to be the first person in your quest for a 10 people survey who affirms that EA is as black and white as PA is.

 

Notice the second letter to each? The A stands for "Affair". By definition, emotional and physical may differ, but both are still affairs---an act that engages a certain inappropriate behavior with intent to harm. Anytime a WS invests in an A, (E or P) is investment taken away from the M to which the BS is unaware. If the BS were aware of WS inappropriate behavior, what steps do you think BS would take? What is you "gray" answer?

 

Along that same line, how do you define "harm" imposed on BS against WS willingness to engage in an EA or PA outside the M? Would you define the intent as gray because the WS "didn't intend" to cause harm to the BS? If this is the case, then what what is your opinion/definition when a WS engages in an inappropriate behavior outside the M?

 

In other words, what part of the "ACT" to engage in EA/PA "gray"?

[Tired03]

What does religion have anything to do with this topic? Ok, Tired...you're really stretching it...Let's not hijack this thread with religion.

 

I was making a statement about the "command" not to judge. I've been down this road before and that's what it's got to do with it. And don't tell me I'm stretching it, that was precisely on topic - good gravy, don't be so full of yourself *grin*

 

You didn't define the line. When does an EA become an EA and not a friendship? If you'd like to be one of the 10, you have to answer THAT question. (Called out in bold not to shout, but just to make sure the actual question isn't missed)

 

And Snowflower, I'm sorry to hear about your situation (I missed your post earlier...somehow) but I do believe that men (and women) can have purely physical affairs. And purely emotional affairs, and combinations of the two.

[Tired03]

By definition, emotional and physical may differ, but both are still affairs---an act that engages a certain inappropriate behavior with intent to harm. Anytime a WS invests in an A, (E or P) is investment taken away from the M to which the BS is unaware.

 

I'm not in an A, but I do invest emotional energy outside my marriage, all the time! I have a mother whom I support, surely I'm not engaging in an EA with her. I have a female friend whom I am very close to, surely I'm not engaging in an EA with her, but I DO invest significant amounts of emotional energy in both places - what makes it different? (please note, I am not involved in an EA - I'm posing the question)

 

I have horses, which means that I spend significant amounts of time at the barn, investing energy there - does it take away from my marriage? Sure! That time is time I'm not spending at home with my husband!

 

So, the line is gray - is it just that that friend is the opposite sex? Of course, that doesn't mean anything, there are women (and men) who have discovered that they were actually gay in this manner.

 

Is it "when you realize that you miss that person?" Nope, I miss my dear close friend (female) who I used to work with and who has now moved to a different town to work.

 

Is it "when you want to hang out with that person rather than your spouse?" Well, crap - there are quite a few times that I'd rather hang out with my friends than my spouse. So that's not quite it.

 

Is it "when you keep aspects of your friendship a secret from your partner?"

 

Is this the line? I keep lots of aspects of my friendship a secret from my partner. I don't talk to him about the conversations that I have with my female friend about my marriage, nor the funny conversations about bodily functions that we have, nor about her issues. I don't tell him every single time we go and do something (not because I'm afraid of anything, but simply because I don't feel it's relevant)

 

Now, I do have a very good male friend, who also fits *most* of these criteria, but there is no probability for romance or interest there. Am I in an EA with him? Pretty sure I'm not, he's a very good friend but I'm totally not interested in him. In another person, the same behavior I'm describing above MIGHT mean they are in an EA.

 

So, what's the difference? The line is gray.

 

(and Phew, that's hard to explain - much easier to explain black and white thinking)

 

If the BS were aware of WS inappropriate behavior, what steps do you think BS would take? What is you "gray" answer?

 

Well, it entirely depends on the situation. I'd leave it there, but it is kind of a copout - but that's my answer.

 

Each person responds to different things.

 

Marriagebuilders has some ideas with their Plan A and Plan B. But I know who I am. If I would imagine for a minute that my husband has cheated on me, what would I respond to?

 

Well, I'm the kind of person that doesn't like to be smothered. And the harder you chase me the further I'm going to run away. So, post discovery, I would want some time to think. I would not want my spouse to be chasing after me, fawning all over me - that would make me run away. I know and acknowledge this tendency in me (I'm a lot like my horses - the harder one pulls on me the harder I pull back).

 

I would want to know if they wanted to end the marriage - of course, this all depends on what kind of affair and why they had it - if it was an ONS or pure PA, then this discussion most likely would be brief and more along the lines of "let's get you tested". If it was an EA (with or without PA involved) it would be more along the lines of "Do you think you would be happier with that person?"

 

You see, I LOVE my spouse, but I am not dependent on him. I'm fully aware that he may discover 5 or 10 years down the road that I'm not the one for him. So be it.

 

I don't own him and he doesn't own me.

 

Please note to EVERYONE - I am NOT trying to diminish any WS's pain or minimize anyone's experience with infidelity. Each person is different, each person's marriage is different, Each person's background is different.

 

Hence the GRAY areas, they are all over the place.

[Tired03]

In other words, what part of the "ACT" to engage in EA/PA "gray"?

 

PAs can be gray. My husband and I are very outgoing affectionate people. We often hug and kiss our friends.

 

So, the line for you might be "kissing" or "hugging" for a PA, but in my marriage that's okay.

 

Different lines, gray areas all over the place.

 

Make more sense?

[Tired03]

And just because I want to make it crystal clear...

 

I am not condoning anyone having an affair of any sort.

 

Nor am I minimizing (or making an attempt to minimize) anyone's pain and anguish during or after an affair.

 

I am stating why I believe there are gray areas and what my marriage is like, with the full knowledge that it's not like other marriages.

[Owl]

Tired, here's what I think you're missing.

 

You're not involved in an affair...I get that. I believe that.

 

But...you engage in quite a bit of risky behavior that very well may set the stage for your marriage to suffer infidelity...either from you or your wife.

 

All of these things you just boasted about...being outgoing affectionate people with others, having close opposite sex friends, no clear boundaries on what is shared between those friends, etc...

 

Are all hallmark traits that can very easily LEAD into an affair.

 

What you describe of your relationship sounds VERY much like that of my wife and myself...PRIOR to her affair.

 

All that 'grey thinking' leads to flimsy, weak boundaries that will fail to protect your marriage.

 

I'm a VERY black and white thinker. Always have been.

 

Realize that you're talking with a number of people who have ALREADY suffered that emotional trauma of dealing with infidelity. We've learned about those boundaries, those grey areas...and the reason you're getting so much heat about them is because we've learned by bitter experience just how destructive that "grey thinking" can be to a marriage.

 

I'm not calling you out...I'm pointing out to you why you're taking the heat that you are. And trying to help you understand the risks you're taking.

 

What you see as STRENGTHS in your marriage, I've learned from bitter experience turn out to be weaknesses.

[Tired03]

Tired, here's what I think you're missing.

 

You're not involved in an affair...I get that. I believe that.

 

But...you engage in quite a bit of risky behavior that very well may set the stage for your marriage to suffer infidelity...either from you or your wife.

 

Um, I'm the wife But I do appreciate the sentiment.

 

All of these things you just boasted about...being outgoing affectionate people with others, having close opposite sex friends, no clear boundaries on what is shared between those friends, etc...

 

Actually, I think you're misinterpreting these things - my husband and I KNOW and are okay with us having these discussions, we just don't discuss the content of the discussions.

 

What you describe of your relationship sounds VERY much like that of my wife and myself...PRIOR to her affair.

 

All that 'grey thinking' leads to flimsy, weak boundaries that will fail to protect your marriage.

 

What does protect my marriage, IMO, is the fact that we are honest with each other and realistic with each other that we feel these things. To boot, if I'm reading things correctly, no marriage is affair-proof, so...um...

 

I'm a VERY black and white thinker. Always have been.

 

To each his own.

 

Realize that you're talking with a number of people who have ALREADY suffered that emotional trauma of dealing with infidelity. We've learned about those boundaries, those grey areas...and the reason you're getting so much heat about them is because we've learned by bitter experience just how destructive that "grey thinking" can be to a marriage.

 

It's okay, I'm not uncomfortable or upset by the discussion - in my view it is discourse. I have experienced unfaithfulness in a prior marriage (not by me), and I have experienced other things. I have supported friends through affairs. I continue to want to learn about it because I have an innate curiosity about how to help friends who experience such things and also because of my experiences.

 

I'm not calling you out...I'm pointing out to you why you're taking the heat that you are. And trying to help you understand the risks you're taking.

 

What you see as STRENGTHS in your marriage, I've learned from bitter experience turn out to be weaknesses.

 

Though I'm very sorry to hear that you had those experiences, what I believe to be the ultimate strength in my marriage is that we have experienced adversity and come through it. We are also very realistic about the probability of each other falling in love with someone else through the course of our marriage, and we both know that this could end, either via an affair or death or what have you at any moment in time.

 

In my mind, it is expectations missed that often cause pain, sadness and trauma. While I was talking about gray areas with regard to friendships and EAs (PAs, I don't believe to be nearly as gray).

 

But since we're on topic here, and my attempt was to answer a question that I had posed on "where is the line for you with an EA" - where is the line for you, Owl?

 

Where do you believe that a friendship crosses the line?

[confusedinkansas]

She clearly couldn't handle it! She'd divorce him.........

 

Clearly.....that wouldn't be the case. I understand that infidelity is grounds for divorce. But, lots of other things are as well. Some of the things he has done, women leave their husbands for WAY less.

 

He stuck it out because he loves me. I stuck it out because I love him.

We were raised that divorce isn't the answer. Clearly, we were headed in that direction, but because we persevered, we overcame a lot of obstales & we are both better for it. We're a better married couple & we are better individuals.

 

I asked him about the affair last night. Because after reading some of the posts here (EVERYONE is devistated & scarred for life after an affair)

 

He said this: "I was hurt, not devistated, when I found out. That is old news, water under the bridge. No reason to hash it out again. We're better now & we are moving forward, not looking back"

BTW: Looking back would make him have to look at HIS behaviors too.

Anyway, If he were still dwelling on this, I would know it.

[Reggie]

Huh? You say poh-tah-toe. I say poh-tay-toe. So what do you mean exactly?

 

Vows may be written and spoken during the blissful ceremony. Part of the vow is the "unwritten rule" that both parties "agree" to a certain behavior and respect for the other.

 

Let's face it, marriage IS not just an emotional agreement between two people in love. It's also a business transaction or contract where both parties mutually come to an agreement combining their lives, finances and history together. If one person wants to break any part of the agreement, the other person has the right to know and assess what steps to take. But once a contract has been breached, the person harmed may never be able to trust that partner again and may decide to break away from the partnership. Would you continue doing business with someone who intentionally screwed you over? Marriage is no different. It takes nano seconds to break a rule/vow in a R. But it can take years to rebuild. Many just can't be saved.

 

 

Double huh?

 

What does religion have anything to do with this topic? Ok, Tired...you're really stretching it...Let's not hijack this thread with religion.

 

BTW, I'm not "Christian". I was raised Catholic, introduced to Baptist, Protestant and Lutheran; have friends who are Muslims, Jewish , Buddhists, and Mormons. The way I see it, there is ONE "spiritual" God we check in with and seek from time to time.

 

Judging anyone has no bearing to what religion they belong. We are ONE race---human race. It's our belief system, namely reglion and culture that attemts to segregate and break the human race apart. So don't even bring Christianity or religion bull crap to this forum.

 

 

Here's what I meant. A rule is not something that an individual, neccessarily , commits to. Not saying it is neccessarily right to break a rule, as doing so can hurt others, sometimes.

But, a vow is something an individual voluntarily commits to and represents committing to. So, I agree with the contract analysis. Seems to me, that having affirmatively committed to a vow(and, in most ceremonies , the fidelity vow is very explicit(not unwritten in that sense)), breaking one's vow(an essential term of the contract) is worse than failing to abide by a rule one has never committed to. That's all I was saying.

 

I've seen the embezzling business partner analogy before and it makes sense. Nevertheless, some folks do continue relationships with people that have been dishonest with them in the past. That is their right and they assume the risk. I guess the wisdom of that decision is debatable.

[Snowflower]

This thread is somehow making me a little bit better about my marriage.

 

I thought a lot last night about what was being said here and I take away a couple of things from it: yes...affairs (PA or EA or both) cross the line/are pretty much black and white. I don't think anyone here disagrees that affairs-at all levels and for all reasons are wrong. When my H confessed his A (I'm thankful he confessed instead of me finding out the "hard way), I remember him saying "I crossed the line..." Horrible conversation when I think back on it. So, yes black and white thinking is applicable here. However, in the real world-there are many shades of grey and this is where the difficulty comes in.

 

Black and white thinking is all fine and good-they are the basis for our rules and laws. I don't want to revisit my college ethics class here but yes cheating(whether it is on your spouse, on your taxes, etc) is wrong. I don't think anyone excuses it-it's taboo-even in this day and age.

 

Again though, enter reality...which for everyone is different as tired03 I think pointed out. Everyone has different perceptions and different experiences. Infidelity occurs for different reasons in different marriages. The result is the same: intense pain for the BS and often the WS. But, what happens in a marriage before, during and after an affair can vary widely.

 

My experience with my H's infidelity was very different from the next person, as evidenced by what I read here when I visit. So, what is "true" in my situation won't be true for someone else. This is where the relativism comes in. I guess I'm saying that blanket generalizations don't work in these types of situations.

 

I chose to stay in my marriage because I think it is worth saving, despite what my H did. If he had done different things in his A--things that I would have considered absolute deal breakers--then I would have left. Now for others in the exact same situation as my A-of course no two are exactly the same-they would have left because that would have been their reality. OTOH, someone else's affair situation might be unbearable for me-but workable for them. In both cases, someone else's reality would have been different than mine-but neither of us are wrong for believing the way we do and what we will accept.

 

It depends on the situation because that is real life-it's not perfect--all the black and white thinking aside!

[NewSunrise]

Tired, here's what I think you're missing.

 

You're not involved in an affair...I get that. I believe that.

 

But...you engage in quite a bit of risky behavior that very well may set the stage for your marriage to suffer infidelity...either from you or your wife.

 

All of these things you just boasted about...being outgoing affectionate people with others, having close opposite sex friends, no clear boundaries on what is shared between those friends, etc...

 

Are all hallmark traits that can very easily LEAD into an affair.

 

What you describe of your relationship sounds VERY much like that of my wife and myself...PRIOR to her affair.

 

All that 'grey thinking' leads to flimsy, weak boundaries that will fail to protect your marriage.

 

I'm a VERY black and white thinker. Always have been.

 

Realize that you're talking with a number of people who have ALREADY suffered that emotional trauma of dealing with infidelity. We've learned about those boundaries, those grey areas...and the reason you're getting so much heat about them is because we've learned by bitter experience just how destructive that "grey thinking" can be to a marriage.

 

I'm not calling you out...I'm pointing out to you why you're taking the heat that you are. And trying to help you understand the risks you're taking.

 

What you see as STRENGTHS in your marriage, I've learned from bitter experience turn out to be weaknesses.

Well said. 2 black and white thinkers.

Tired03: I have horses, which means that I spend significant amounts of time at the barn, investing energy there - does it take away from my marriage? Sure! That time is time I'm not spending at home with my husband!

I have a dog that I love and take morning walks and bike rides with even when I was married to xWH.

 

Is it "when you realize that you miss that person?" Nope, I miss my dear close friend (female) who I used to work with and who has now moved to a different town to work.

I have weekly outings with girlfriends. And sometimes, I'd take a long drive to see a girlfriend.

 

Now, I do have a very good male friend, who also fits *most* of these criteria, but there is no probability for romance or interest there. Am I in an EA with him? Pretty sure I'm not, he's a very good friend but I'm totally not interested in him. In another person, the same behavior I'm describing above MIGHT mean they are in an EA.

I too have a great "male friend" and we bounce off ideas on relationships without any romantic inkling. I see him in a "big brother" way.

 

PAs can be gray. My husband and I are very outgoing affectionate people. We often hug and kiss our friends.

So, the line for you might be "kissing" or "hugging" for a PA, but in my marriage that's okay.

Different lines, gray areas all over the place.

Make more sense?

I greet friends and people I work with whom I haven't seen in a while with hugs. We all do.

Is it "when you keep aspects of your friendship a secret from your partner?"

If a friend asked you to keep a secret, you are expected to keep it a secret as long as the secret does not affect your relationship with your SO or spouse.

 

I keep lots of aspects of my friendship a secret from my partner. I don't talk to him about the conversations that I have with my female friend about my marriage, nor the funny conversations about bodily functions that we have, nor about her issues. I don't tell him every single time we go and do something (not because I'm afraid of anything, but simply because I don't feel it's relevant)

There are just some things in conversations you have with friends that are better left unsaid or your H could careless to hear about and vice versa.

 

And I think this is where you have a problem distinguishing the difference between gray vs. black and white.

 

What you do in your own time as in the above that has some value and meaning that enhances your innerself, goals, growth, interpersonal relationships with friends to which NONE adversely affects your relationship with your spouse are not considered "gray" areas. These are "necessary" time for YOU that your spouse would probably want you to do anyway if they make you happy. No different than activities that you'd enjoy if you were alone or prior to your M. These things that you enjoy and do with friends are what defines you as an individual. No more than you H who'd rather spend Monday night footbal with bunch of his buddies or travel across the country to follow his favorite team. So these do not define your interpretation of what is "gray".

 

For the purpose of this post and argument, the minute you turn your "platonic" relationship, whether it be with a co-worker, fe/male friend into more than "just friends" is when you begin to develop certain romantic feelings and you two start spending more time outside of work and your spouse is unaware. In thise scenario, there is no gray area. It's now black and white. You have now taken "inappropriate" step over the line, outside of your marriage. You've turn the "just friend" into an emotional affair. That line is as black as they come.

[confusedinkansas]

I chose to stay in my marriage because I think it is worth saving, despite what my H did. ..............

 

It depends on the situation because that is real life-it's not perfect--all the black and white thinking aside!

 

Snowflower - You, Like me, have thought about this whole thread. You for one side of the coin, me for the other. But the bottom line is....Every situation is different. Some stay - some choose to leave.

 

Going back to the original question........

Does it always end in divorce? Obviously NO...they don't all end in divorce.

One poster said~ every marriage ends in divorce & if they don't divorce they are unhappy - I don't buy into that theory. Yes, some are unhappy (even if there is NO infidelity) & some are just too lazy to find the happiness. I do believe there are HAPPILY MARRIED couples out there. (I used to believe that those 2 words didn't belong in the same sentance) I think differently now.