Snowflower Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 If you really loved him, wouldn't you make your choices based on what is best for him? Untouch - I don't understand this. This seems to me that since he loved me, my husband should have divorced me after his A based on the belief that it was "best for me." By the same token, Kansas should have made the same choice for her husband based on the fact that she loved him? It is one of the prerogatives of the BS to decide what they want to do after the A is revealed-if they are lucky enough. If the WS is truly repentant and remorseful as Kansas appeared to be and my H has been, then they both realize and accept that it the decision of the "injured party" at that point whether or not the marriage will continue.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 I believe that he has made this choice because he loves me....as I do him. I never made a choice to Not love him anymore. I just think that because of the things that had happened....in my heart, I doubted my love for him. I know now that the love never went away, it was just muffled by all the THINGS that happen in life. Life can be crazy, I get that. But that isn't some catch all excuse. Love isn't something you doubt... the existence of aliens is something you doubt. Love is something you choose. When you started up with another guy... isnt that choosing not to love your husband? Or are you trying to say that cheating on him was an act of love? There have been many years that have passed (this is not a new affair, or a new issue for us anymore) - Lots has happened in the 7 years since the A (& the other things). We have had many talks, many arguements, & separated for a year. I don't believe for a second that love is not a Feeling....it may be Both..a feeling & an action. It is not just an action. No I don't think for a second another affair would make things that much better for us. There is a feeling that comes from that action. Feelings come and go... actions stand forever. We are not slaves to our emotions. Or do you believe we are? That we just float along powerless on a sea of our own emotions? Untouchable: Do you really believe An Eye For An Eye...is the best thing for relationships? No. I believe there are some things you can do to another person that are impossible to fix. I believe that if you really love someone, you make choices that are in their best interest even if that hurts you. That's why when I was in your shoes, I ended it. Took me the better part of a year, but I realized that I could no longer be the man she needed. I never really loved her, though at the time I believed I did. I will say this.......I am glad this has sparked conversation. I'm happy that there ARE SUCCESS stories out there. I'm sorry for those of you that are still bitter about what happened to you. I was once very bitter as well. When LIFE throws us curveballs...some of us duck, others of us just get hit in the head with a knuckleball. I've been on both ends of this. I know how it feels to be bitter, hurt, sad, devistated. I also know what it feels like to be happy, truly happy & content. I am glad that we all have this forum to share our thoughts and feelings. Life is not all peaches & roses....But it also is not devistation & disaster either. I too have been on both ends. I now have happiness that comes from loving myself, loving others, and having others love me. The real thing... not some self centered sham.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Untouch - I don't understand this. This seems to me that since he loved me, my husband should have divorced me after his A based on the belief that it was "best for me." By the same token, Kansas should have made the same choice for her husband based on the fact that she loved him? It is one of the prerogatives of the BS to decide what they want to do after the A is revealed-if they are lucky enough. If the WS is truly repentant and remorseful as Kansas appeared to be and my H has been, then they both realize and accept that it the decision of the "injured party" at that point whether or not the marriage will continue. Is that what is best for you? I was pointing out the catch 22 of it. If he really loved you in the first place... Then clearly he would not have made the choices, which have caused you so much pain. Yes, you have a right to make your own path. However, you will only have my respect so long as you do it with clear eyes and a strong heart. I have no compassion for losers who choose to suffer the abuse because they fear the unknown.
Reggie Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 It's his choice, as you say. I do believe some BSs can get past this and be happy , again. So much depends on the WS's attitude and subsequent actions. We should not judge the BS's decision as to whether to stay and we cannot know if he will be happy. I think it leaves a scar, but many things do and folks carry on.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 8, 2009 Author Posted April 8, 2009 I have no compassion for losers who choose to suffer the abuse because they fear the unknown. I don't understand what abuse you are referring to.
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Interesting topic and heated debates---all with valid points based on experienced...learned ones that is. I stand on the tally of divorce. xWH continued the cheating and lying after the forgiveness, MC and IC. Two major ingredients that guarantees divorce and the ONLY best left thing to do for some BS. He pretended he "tried" his best to be forthcoming. Gut instincts tell you otherwise. Nailed him with keyloggers and tape recorders and I was done. Ironically, I see xWH once in awhile (he lives 4 houses which we bought together down from my dogsitters) and the only momentary emotions I feel is one of cringe. Not hatred, but cringe. He's asked about me from neighbors. One of the neighbors even came out to tell me he saw xWH drive by back and forth when I picked up my dog just to see my car. Another neighbor caught xH checking my parked car on the stree in the middle of the night. xWH even emailed me to wish me Happy B-day which I ignored and deleted. WTF. Move on already---I have! Divorce WAS and IS the best thing I've done for me. The freedom and joy of moving on successfully (just me and my dog ) is incomparable to the alternative had I remained with someone who is a liar and a cheater and who I no longer respected. Dexter is also right. You simply can't and will never forget the image of your WS boinking someone else. Didn't want to spend the remainder of my life fighting that image either. I much prefer use that energy that will bring me comfort, happiness and joy. I haven't totally given up on love either. I've been asked but not interested yet...First thing first....
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 8, 2009 Author Posted April 8, 2009 NewSunrise......Sounds to me if your XWH hasn't moved on...perhaps he is still having some feelings of guilt. Good for you...for moving on. Did you even give it a little bit of a try to save your marriage? Another point about MY situation: My husband & I have known each other 32 years. Married almost 29. 2 Grown Kiddos. In otherwords...A lot of time together - a lot to try to hold on to.
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 NewSunrise......Sounds to me if your XWH hasn't moved on...perhaps he is still having some feelings of guilt. Good for you...for moving on. Did you even give it a little bit of a try to save your marriage? Another point about MY situation: My husband & I have known each other 32 years. Married almost 29. 2 Grown Kiddos. In otherwords...A lot of time together - a lot to try to hold on to. I'm sure xH is still feeling guilt or still have feelings for me as neighbors have said. No longer affects me and frankly, could careless. He's now a part of my history. And that's where he belongs. Never been one to go back to exes. Time frame to try to save a marriage varies from one couple to next and BS' level of tolerance, self worth and mental health s/he is willing to compromise. You know when you've reached yours. We did MC together, IC separately. We even went on a cruise. In the end, it came down to his continued lying and cheating. You've invested longterm on your M. A lot of people use length of M and kids as a foundation to give the M more umph to save. Knew xH for 5 years before we got married. But once the dust settled, there wasn't anything left for me to WANT to stay, let alone save. The best thing I did, was saved myself from someone I lost respect, trust and made me cringe. And am happier because of it.
boldjack Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Confused, you had better hope that your Husband doesn't find another woman and fall out of love for a couple of nights, then fall back in love after he is finished. You might think differently
Snowflower Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Time frame to try to save a marriage varies from one couple to next and BS' level of tolerance, self worth and mental health s/he is willing to compromise. You know when you've reached yours. We did MC together, IC separately. We even went on a cruise. In the end, it came down to his continued lying and cheating Here is the crux of the matter as far as I am concerned. You had given your xH another chance, I think you said you had forgiven him and he continued to lie and cheat. He blew his second chance and that was it. This is exactly what I would do if my H screws up again. I know if my H started up ANYTHING again-I don't care if it was just text messages-with the OW or anyone else in that context-I would be done. It would be finished for me and there would be nothing he could do. By having these boundaries in place for me (for my own sanity) and my husband, it gives me a sense of control and believe it or not, peace of mind. If he did any of that again then he simply would not be the person I thought he was or anyone I could ever trust again. I guess what it boiled down to for me was if I could handle the possible risk of him doing again. After all, he had done it once now. I can only speak for what I am capable of but in MY situation, once is forgivable based on what I have learned. I've alluded to some of my story in some of my other posts. However, doing the same thing twice would be the ultimate deal-breaker. I know it is different for everyone-based on the people involved, the circumstances surrounding the affair, remorsefulness, etc. There is no single right answer, IMO.
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Another point about MY situation: My husband & I have known each other 32 years. Married almost 29. 2 Grown Kiddos. In otherwords...A lot of time together - a lot to try to hold on to. This is the part that I don't get. You've known your H for 32 years. Yet, you didn't trust your M enough to seek your H to help you with whatever you felt was missing. Now, you think that just because you've been married this long, this might help. What a waste I might add. I hope your H is on the same page with you. During M with xWH, I pleade with him that if there was ever a time that he wasn't happy with me, in our marriage or anything about our R, that he tell me and to please not cheat on me. He looked at me at said, "I love you! I promised I will do that and I will never cheat on you." I do wish you well and your H and hope that the length of your M is strong enough to hold you together.
Tired03 Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 New, I think you're missing something here. They weren't able to do that prior to the A, but now they can have those conversations POST A because of the honesty that they've had to go through. I know this is really hard for you to understand. Does it mean it couldn't have happened without an Affair? Nope, lots of ways other than an affair to get honesty into a relationship - real honesty. But not everyone comes equipped with those tools. Not everyone even realizes that it's a problem. Remember, we go to school to become teachers, doctors and lawyers, but very few of us have any idea how to be a husband/wife. Maybe some of us, if we're lucky, have a pre-cana or other marital class prior, but most of us don't have good role models, have an over-idealized view of marriage (or under-idealized), etc. Being with a marriage partner takes HARD WORK. I started dating my husband when I was 24. Did I know how to conduct a relationship then? Heck no, I knew NOTHING about marriage, didn't understand it in the least (well, other than the script - you know, get married, have kids, have a house, have 2.3 dogs...oh wait, that was supposed to be kids). Nothing prepared me for having to really work it through with someone. Nothing prepared me even for the CHOICE of person to marry - I didn't realize that maybe the choice I ought to be making was not "can you love this person" but rather "if this person and you got up on a Sunday morning 15 years from now, are you compatible?" "Do you have the same values?" "Will this person be a good role model for future children" Did I think of anything like that? NO! I was "in love". Naively I didn't understand what it was going to take to make a marriage work. And, for the record, no, I'm not a WS or a BS in this case, what I am is a realist and someone who gets seriously annoyed at black and white thinking.
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 By having these boundaries in place for me (for my own sanity) and my husband, it gives me a sense of control and believe it or not, peace of mind. If he did any of that again then he simply would not be the person I thought he was or anyone I could ever trust again. I guess what it boiled down to for me was if I could handle the possible risk of him doing again. After all, he had done it once now. It's a given for BS to go through this. The time frame between point A (day of forgiveness) to point B (recovery--full) can never be accomplished fully because there will always "trigger" moments for the BS. Sure they dissipate over time. But there will always be reminder that sets off different emotions. What it eventually boils down for BS (at least for me) is: Will I be happier with or without darling xH? I thought long and hard what my life would be with him and without him. Either way, there is a price. Since xH made a choice that was not in my or our best interest, I chose what was in my best interest. And yeah, I forgave the bastard even when he didn't deserve it.
Reggie Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 I think the black and white thinking is appealing because a lot of people want to feel safe in their marriage. This does not mean they are unwilling to work on problems and maintain the marriage. But, it feels good to think that even if things get bad, your spouse will not resort to cheating, because that is such a traumatic thing to go through. Once this has happened to you, going through all this pain, it may change the way you look at relationships. You realize that with quite a few people, there are no absolutes, and that, despite the vows, you must always be on guard. And, frankly, that can be somewhat exhausting and paralyzing. Some folks adapt, changing their thinking or becoming more cynical. And, that is a loss of innocence which hurts. And, it leaves you with the knowledge that you really cannot rely 100% on your spouses word. Frankly, that kind of sucks. But, apparently, that is the way it si. So, I understand the desire to see this in black and white. Black and white feels safer to me. But, it is not reality , as far as I can tell. So, after you deal with this, you make a choice> Get back in the game but hold back some trust and stay vigilant. Or, just stay out of this arena, as the potential for pain may not be offset by the upside. Folks are very different in terms of what feels tolerable to them, what they will settle for. Before delving into all this, I had absolutely no idea just what a bill of goods I had been sold(and willingly, stupidly bought) as regards romantic relationships. Now, I have to do the cost benefit analysis thing and determine if a compromised relationship warrants the risk.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 This is the part that I don't get. You've known your H for 32 years. Yet, you didn't trust your M enough to seek your H to help you with whatever you felt was missing. Now, you think that just because you've been married this long, this might help. What a waste I might add. I hope your H is on the same page with you. During M with xWH, I pleade with him that if there was ever a time that he wasn't happy with me, in our marriage or anything about our R, that he tell me and to please not cheat on me. He looked at me at said, "I love you! I promised I will do that and I will never cheat on you." I do wish you well and your H and hope that the length of your M is strong enough to hold you together. 32 years comes with a lot of baggage as well. Not all of it positive. I note that in her story the H had an ea a few years prior to her pa. I personally believe those to facts are linked. Also... don't mistake being comfortable with being in love. I don't understand what abuse you are referring to. A punch to the face is to physical abuse as an affair is to emotional/psychological abuse.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 8, 2009 Author Posted April 8, 2009 This is the part that I don't get. You've known your H for 32 years. Yet, you didn't trust your M enough to seek your H to help you with whatever you felt was missing. The part of the story that hasn't been told. The man was a drunk. It wouldn't have mattered what I said to him. He would not have listened or heard me. He spent the last 10 years gradually becoming accostomed to the "bar" lifestyle. He had his life with the "bartenders & very young waitresses".........Now you know ..."The Rest Of The Story" BTW: I did try. Tried on numorous occasions to talk to him. He was nothing like this when I met him or when I married him. NOW, he is the man I married again.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 8, 2009 Author Posted April 8, 2009 32 years comes with a lot of baggage as well. Not all of it positive. I note that in her story the H had an ea a few years prior to her pa. I personally believe those to facts are linked. Also... don't mistake being comfortable with being in love. Yep 32 years, lots of baggage...lots of good stuff....& some bad stuff. Why can't you "Be comfortable & Be in love?"
Dexter Morgan Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 The part of the story that hasn't been told. The man was a drunk. Just listen to yourself...."the man"....not "my husband", but "the man". It wouldn't have mattered what I said to him. He would not have listened or heard me. He spent the last 10 years gradually becoming accostomed to the "bar" lifestyle. He had his life with the "bartenders & very young waitresses".........Now you know ..."The Rest Of The Story" BTW: I did try. Tried on numorous occasions to talk to him. He was nothing like this when I met him or when I married him. NOW, he is the man I married again. Ah, so moral of the story is....if you don't like what your spouse is, cheat on them and make them change that way?
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 New, I think you're missing something here. They weren't able to do that prior to the A, but now they can have those conversations POST A because of the honesty that they've had to go through. I know this is really hard for you to understand. Does it mean it couldn't have happened without an Affair? Nope, lots of ways other than an affair to get honesty into a relationship - real honesty. But not everyone comes equipped with those tools. Not everyone even realizes that it's a problem. While no one come equipped with certain "tools", we all come equipped with certain undeniable "common sense" knowledge that cheating is wrong. Cheating IS is cheating, no matter how you slice it. Cheating is black and white. The consequences IS black and white. It guarantees havoc in a marriage and those who are close to it. The end result? The M hangs on a balance that leaves both BS and WS wondering, hoping, wishing and praying they will get through myriad of emotions, hurdles, challenges so that they can celebrate their next wedding anniversary with las little taint as possible. To imply that no one come equipped with the common sense that cheating will not hurt the marriage is inexcusable no more than an abuser who continue to abuse and uses past to justify the behavior. New, I think you're missing something here. They weren't able to do that prior to the A, but now they can have those conversations POST A because of the honesty that they've had to go through. I know this is really hard for you to understand. So, what am I missing here? In relation to what? I understand that sometimes an A will either break or make a M stronger. Believe me. Initially, I believed in the latter as an opportunity to rediscover each other. Long serious talks, some actions, more talks---honest talks. We attempted at recovering the M. While my M post A have similarities of what we had to go through to get to some level where we were on the same page, it wasn't possible. So the end result is very different from this poster's. If I'm understanding her post, I'm guessing she and BH are still trying to mend things and come into terms with her choice. If this is the case, the dust hasn't quite settled or maybe it has?
Darth Vader Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 The part of the story that hasn't been told. The man was a drunk. It wouldn't have mattered what I said to him. He would not have listened or heard me. He spent the last 10 years gradually becoming accostomed to the "bar" lifestyle. He had his life with the "bartenders & very young waitresses".........Now you know ..."The Rest Of The Story" BTW: I did try. Tried on numorous occasions to talk to him. He was nothing like this when I met him or when I married him. NOW, he is the man I married again. Oh, and that makes the affair Okay? Yeah Right! He's the man you married? No, he isn't, and he never will again, that part's been destroyed, because of your cheating. If he was the man you married, then he wouldn't have the pain that you inflicted upon him! But, what does his feelings matter, after all, you got what you wanted? Talk about selfish! It almost sounds like it was ok for her to do it, but not her husband. Not that it would be good either way. So that tells me if he had another woman ride him, she would've left. Me thinks there's something wrong here! In case you missed it! It's obvious that you couldn't take the same you dished out to your hubby! IMO, the poster's way too controling towards her husband, but, that's my take!
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Just listen to yourself...."the man"....not "my husband", but "the man". Ah, so moral of the story is....if you don't like what your spouse is, cheat on them and make them change that way? Originally Posted by confusedinkansas The part of the story that hasn't been told. The man was a drunk. Now this is really funny. I knew a guy whose drunk grandfather used to beat the heck out of his wife (grandmother). This was back in the early 1900s. One night when the drunken grandfather slept, his grandmother sewed a quilt over him to the bed and beat the crap out of him! Eye for an eye!:D Grandfather never touched his wife ever again.:D:D! See, here's proof there are other ways to get even.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 Nothing prepared me for having to really work it through with someone. Nothing prepared me even for the CHOICE of person to marry - I didn't realize that maybe the choice I ought to be making was not "can you love this person" but rather "if this person and you got up on a Sunday morning 15 years from now, are you compatible?" "Do you have the same values?" "Will this person be a good role model for future children" Did I think of anything like that? NO! I was "in love". Naively I didn't understand what it was going to take to make a marriage work. And, for the record, no, I'm not a WS or a BS in this case, what I am is a realist and someone who gets seriously annoyed at black and white thinking. The problems usually lie in the shades of gray. I wasn't prepared to make that choice either. Nobody told me I even had a real choice. I feel like society just handed me this idea of love and marriage that is very fatalistic. I felt I had little control over what I was attracted to, over who I loved, over how I was in the relationship. It was only after several disasters I discovered that it was all in my hands... and that many of the issues I had faced were my fault. I've also learned that if you boil each situation to it's most basic core... the answers are very black and white. I like to see it like this. Possibilities are gray... Actualities are black and white. You can't be a realist and not recognize that solid truth exists.
Tired03 Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 While no one come equipped with certain "tools", we all come equipped with certain undeniable "common sense" knowledge that cheating is wrong. Well, not really, we don't, but that's neither here nor there. We're not genetically programmed for monogamy. And no, we're not all equipped with common sense - what's the saying? Common sense...isn't. In the case of an ONS, or purely physical PA (that starts as a PA) - yes, that is often black and white. EAs are not that way...not in the least. You can't be a realist and not recognize that solid truth exists. Actually, the funny thing about this, is that I disagree. I'm a relativist (and a realist) and I believe that there is no such thing as truth, that there is only perception. I live in shades of gray. Can you tell my parents met in philosophy class?
Snowflower Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 New, I think you're missing something here. They weren't able to do that prior to the A, but now they can have those conversations POST A because of the honesty that they've had to go through. I know this is really hard for you to understand. Does it mean it couldn't have happened without an Affair? Nope, lots of ways other than an affair to get honesty into a relationship - real honesty. But not everyone comes equipped with those tools. Not everyone even realizes that it's a problem. Remember, we go to school to become teachers, doctors and lawyers, but very few of us have any idea how to be a husband/wife. This is the point I am trying to make in regards to my marriage. I hate being "bashed" because I realized that my husband is human and I am human-but I decided to give my H another chance. It is very easy to "Monday morning quarterback" my marriage, my husband's actions and my actions before the A. Sure, when you get married you think you will never have any problems and that when you do have disagreements you can just kiss and make-up. I thought this--that nothing was insurmountable in our relationship. But little slights become resentments and resentments turn into anger and bitterness. It is a slow process-builds up over years-which what makes it so invasive. Eventually, honesty and real communication go out the window-although I don't think either of us realized it at the time. Sure, we could talk just fine about house projects, bills, the kids, weekend plans...but the honest heart to heart stuff became too risky. The problem was we didn't acknowledge it-even to ourselves. Yes, yes, we all know in a perfect world my H should have come to me and voiced his resentments and he actually did-but it was too late. If everyone could just sit down and calmly speak with their spouse about what was bothering them we probably wouldn't have half the divorces. But, s*** happens and people don't really talk and then the divide becomes bigger and bigger. Most people don't know how to handle relationship problems when they occur and the fallout is painful: disconnect, infidelity, divorce...sometimes all three. My point is that we don't live in a perfect world with perfect relationships. If that were the case every married couple would be blissfully happy for life. Let's be real here and since it isn't a perfect world we have to figure out the best way to deal with imperfect people in imperfect relationships. Infidelity is absolutely wrong-I would have said that before my husbands A and I say it now - but not everything is black and white.
NewSunrise Posted April 8, 2009 Posted April 8, 2009 The part of the story that hasn't been told. The man was a drunk. It wouldn't have mattered what I said to him. He would not have listened or heard me. He spent the last 10 years gradually becoming accostomed to the "bar" lifestyle. He had his life with the "bartenders & very young waitresses".........Now you know ..."The Rest Of The Story" BTW: I did try. Tried on numorous occasions to talk to him. He was nothing like this when I met him or when I married him. NOW, he is the man I married again. Does this mean he dropped the "bar" lifestyle? For how long? When? What are terms and agreement of your recovery?
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