Does it always end in divorce?

[Tired03]

Yes, but they do mean something. I wasn't willing to let those memories get to me, even the slightest bit, by staying with my X. Difference between the memories now and if I would have stayed with her is...now she is insignificant to me. It doesn't hurt. If I would have stayed with her, the occasional memories would have hurt, even as miniscule as it might have been. Not a life I wanted.

 

I'd like to point out, hopefully very respectfully, that it does not seem as if you are completely at peace with those memories. Otherwise, you wouldn't continue to post here, and otherwise you wouldn't be as vehement about a cheating spouse as you are.

 

Owl, I have a lot of respect for you, and I do agree. I think it depends on the maturity level of the participants in the marriage. Affairs can actually wake up a marriage and bring it closer together (not that I condone it in any way shape or form) by forcing honesty where there was none. Appreciation can occur, and once that door is open to honesty, pretty soon the catalyst is, perhaps not forgotten, but not raw and in one's face.

 

People get over divorces too, but sometimes the choice to stay married far outweighs the choice to be divorced.

[Untouchable_Fire]

All of you have very interesting points. And as Snowflower has said - It's easy for someone on the outside to say..."Get the heck outta Dodge"...they aren't the ones that live in your shoes on a daily basis.

Untouchable: You said <<only a total loser can accept that in a marriage>>

Why does it have to be black & white?

Maybe his love for me got him thru the situation. Could it be that he loved enough for both of us?

(obviously the entire story hasn't been told here....but just for discussion sake...)

If a man or a woman knows about an infidelity & turns their head & looks the other way & decides to stay married to that person.....Is that person a loser too?

 

There are several personality types of men that can get over a wife's affair. Some guys stay because they are needy, fearful, and spineless. Some guys deep down enjoy being martyrs and like the feeling of moral superiority it gives them. Then, Occasionally I run into a strong guy who fully realizes what has happened and just loves his wife enough to try and get past it.

 

The problem is, how do you view someone who loves a person that doesn't love them back? That is a sad person. I can't bring myself to really respect that. Anyone with even a modest amount of self worth would not emotionally invest themselves in someone who doesn't return that feeling.

 

So, you should stop and ask yourself why he stays. Why would he choose to spend the rest of his life with someone who doesn't love him?

[Untouchable_Fire]

It'll come up when we talk about marriage/relationship stuff with our kids. They all know the full truth of what went on. They're all in their early 20s now, and so this comes up when we talk about what needs to happen to protect a marriage, etc...

It's a great example of both "what not to do" and "how to fix when the stupid stuff happens".

And that's the difference between us. They really DON'T mean anything to me. Those 'twinges' are nothing to how I think we both would have felt had we divorced.

I wouldn't have wanted your life...you wouldn't have wanted mine.

You believe that you would have hurt more had you stayed. I believe that I would have hurt more had I left.

We make a good counterbalance to each other...

 

There is that line in the sand which never got crossed for you Owl. Can you honestly say things would have been the same had you waited longer to take action?

 

You and Dex are different people at heart, and your experiences are very different as well.

[Owl]

There is that line in the sand which never got crossed for you Owl. Can you honestly say things would have been the same had you waited longer to take action?

 

Excellent point, and one I agree with. Here's the thing...in my case there was NO opportunity for it to have become a full blown PA prior to my obtaining "proof" of what was going on. Add into the mix that I was already getting very suspicious of their interactions, and of my wife's pushing to invite him to a family event that we were considering (so that we could all meet him face to face, supposedly...remember, he was claiming to be a friend to me as well)...and it wasn't gonna happen.

 

That line in the sand you refer to is VERY relevent...because I did discover the affair before they'd crossed it. And I will tell you that I laid this down as a point blank, matter of fact boundary to her. She wanted to "go meet him to see if what they had was 'real in person'". And she thought I'd blithely sit on my hands while she went and did so. I told her point blank that I knew that if she went, it would escalate to a PA...and that if she went, there was NO coming home, at all...ever.

 

If she went...she would have forever burnt that bridge behind her. Partially because I would have had much more of those "twinges" that Dex talks about, and partially because I KNEW of the affair...and if she did something like that "in my face"...it would have been the most viscious thing she could have done.

 

So she had a decision point, very very immediately in front of her.

 

She could either leave and see what it was like with him (and lose me and our family forever), or she could give him up...forever.

 

I would NOT settle for any kind of middle ground here at all.

 

What would have happened had that line been crossed? I'm a man of my word.

 

You and Dex are different people at heart, and your experiences are very different as well.

 

With all due respect to Dex...I totally agree.

[confusedinkansas]

On the contrary Untouchable..........I do love him very much. (did then - do now)

 

When you speak of all of this...I am under the impression that you think that people who have affairs do not love their spouses. That is not correct. Different things happen in a marriage & at different times in a marriage (the death of a parent, illness, empty nesters)...that cause someone to look another direction for "affection."

I'm not condoning what I did - or really trying to justify it.

The events prior to it happening...Happened....The event itsself Happened! Can't change it...

 

But, we are better off now than we have been in 10 years.

Sometimes events like this do bring people closer.

 

Because of the talks we have had about the "Issues" and the "Event"...I believe he is fine with the decision to stay together, he's forgiven me (as I have forgiven him for the horrible things that happened prior)...So, see...It can happen that people do grow closer when catastrophic things happen to their relationship

[Dexter Morgan]

It'll come up when we talk about marriage/relationship stuff with our kids.

 

But if you have forgiven and moved on, why bring it up at all?

 

 

I wouldn't have wanted your life...you wouldn't have wanted mine.

 

You believe that you would have hurt more had you stayed. I believe that I would have hurt more had I left.

 

We make a good counterbalance to each other...

 

That we do my man;)

[Owl]

But if you have forgiven and moved on, why bring it up at all?

 

Because it's the best possible example that we have for our kids on what not to do, on how we learned the painful lessons that we'd like for them to avoid.

 

It's also similar to why I post here on LS.

 

I'd like to see some good come out of the hell I went through. Besides the improvements in my marriage and such, I'd like to think that giving advice based off what we learned throughout all of this is a positive outcome as well.

 

And, as I've said...the pain of talking about it is NOTHING compared to the happiness we've got now. If it helps my kids, or someone else, avoid going through it...it's worth it.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'd like to point out, hopefully very respectfully, that it does not seem as if you are completely at peace with those memories. Otherwise, you wouldn't continue to post here, and otherwise you wouldn't be as vehement about a cheating spouse as you are.

 

I'll never be at peace with regards to cheating..whether it be what happened to me, or what happens to anyone in this forum. It just doesn't hurt. I actually chuckle inside if I ever do think about it.

 

I came to this forum when it was fresh long ago. But then I stayed and saw others that were in the same boat as mine. Just because I am no longer hurt by what happened, doesn't mean I don't despise cheaters just the same and hopefully would like to help others not learn the hard way and waste another moment of their lives. Unlike Owl however, I know some people are happy just the way things are. And thats fine, godspeed to them.

 

 

Owl, I have a lot of respect for you, and I do agree. I think it depends on the maturity level of the participants in the marriage.

 

Is this to say that if someone decides they don't want a cheater in their life that they are immature, or less mature than someone that does stay and work on it?

 

 

Affairs can actually wake up a marriage and bring it closer together (not that I condone it in any way shape or form) by forcing honesty where there was none. Appreciation can occur, and once that door is open to honesty, pretty soon the catalyst is, perhaps not forgotten, but not raw and in one's face.

 

I don't disagree with what you said above, but depends on the situation. For instance, some people took their spouses for granted in the marriage...others are just the victims of a spouse that simply can't stay faithful no matter how good home life is. Some just get bored with married/family life.

 

But the problem would still remain for those that find that "appreciation" or "woke up"......their spouse still screwed someone else.

[Dexter Morgan]

You and Dex are different people at heart, and your experiences are very different as well.

 

With all due respect to Dex...I totally agree.

 

I agree as well....no sense of disrespect perceived here.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'd like to see some good come out of the hell I went through. Besides the improvements in my marriage and such, I'd like to think that giving advice based off what we learned throughout all of this is a positive outcome as well.

 

I have just but one question. Since she crossed a very serious line and you went through hell....has she busted her ass to make it up to you? Or simply just worked on things?

[boldjack]

Tired, You talk about forcing honesty. Honesty forced is not honesty. It is confrontation by the facts. It's the difference between finding out from an outside source, or from investigation, about an affair, or having the WS voluntarily confess. This a very important point in allowing the marriage to continue.

[Owl]

I have just but one question. Since she crossed a very serious line and you went through hell....has she busted her ass to make it up to you? Or simply just worked on things?

 

Good question, and something I've given some thought to many times reading threads here.

 

What constitutes "busting her ass to make it up to me"?

 

I've tried to decide what that would be.

 

The best I've come up with is that I've seen her take ACTIVE measures to ensure that this won't happen again. Not at my prompting or insistence, not just things I've suggested. But her own personal steps to prevent herself from ever getting into a position where she'd even get close to that line again.

 

That's one way that she's really shown me that she "gets it".

 

But how CAN someone "make it up to you" when it's all said and done? Other than show true and honest remorse, and take every possible step to help you recover, help the marriag recover, and prevent it from happening again...what else can anyone do?

 

Thoughts?

[confusedinkansas]

[ OWL: But how CAN someone "make it up to you" when it's all said and done? Other than show true and honest remorse, and take every possible step to help you recover, help the marriag recover, and prevent it from happening again...what else can anyone do?

Thoughts? ]

 

How could you ask for anything more than that?

 

........You are remorseful, You take the steps to make things better because you WANT to. Because you see the hurt you caused (although in my situation - not so much hurt...the long part of the story)

I see thru my own situation & from others here how damaging it is to have an affair. To cross that line. And, as I have said here before, Never Again! It caused a lot of unnecessary termoil in my marriage. Not to say there wasn't thermoil there prior....but this just added to it.

 

BUT...the closeness & the bond we have now, we didn't have before. So for that I'm grateful.

[Snowflower]

On the contrary Untouchable..........I do love him very much. (did then - do now)

 

When you speak of all of this...I am under the impression that you think that people who have affairs do not love their spouses. That is not correct. Different things happen in a marriage & at different times in a marriage (the death of a parent, illness, empty nesters)...that cause someone to look another direction for "affection."

I'm not condoning what I did - or really trying to justify it.

The events prior to it happening...Happened....The event itsself Happened! Can't change it...

 

But, we are better off now than we have been in 10 years.

Sometimes events like this do bring people closer.

 

Because of the talks we have had about the "Issues" and the "Event"...I believe he is fine with the decision to stay together, he's forgiven me (as I have forgiven him for the horrible things that happened prior)...So, see...It can happen that people do grow closer when catastrophic things happen to their relationship

 

Well said, Kansas.

 

And without going into long, somewhat personal details...what you described as events happening prior are similar circumstances to what happened in my M. And yes, I know my husband loved me despite everything he did, just as you said you still loved your husband.

 

I also think explaining and discussing like you have said about the "issues" and "event" do not condone or excuse-but help BOTH spouses understand what happened.

 

In my case, shortly before my H's affair, I did something pretty terrible myself-no it was not an affair or anything that remotely resembled that. I was in a very unhappy place in MY own life and made some rather bad decisions myself--my H reacted with an affair. No, he is was justified--I still think what he did was worse-and more importantly so does he. But, I am not lily-pure here. And now neither my husband nor I can change past events. We can only accept, forgive each other, and move on.

 

But exactly like you are saying, Kansas, we are better now than we have ever been. The best I can sum it up in our situation was that it was similar to a "near death experience" and now we have a whole new appreciation for everything in our lives...this is especially true for my H.

 

But, I do agree with Dex, Untouchable and some of the others here that many, if not most, infidelities should and most likely end a marriage. But, there are cases like what Kansas, Owl and I have been in where something truly good has been the end result.

[Dexter Morgan]

Good question, and something I've given some thought to many times reading threads here.

 

What constitutes "busting her ass to make it up to me"?

 

I don't know really. I would say for me to even BEGIN to think about not leaving a cheating spouse, if during working on things I am not shown big time affection, that would probably be it. i don't mean things like cooking you a losbter dinner once a week. I would just be curious just how any spouse after cheating shows that they care or loves their BS.

 

Of course, there would be a genuine willingness to adhere to a new set of "ground rules" without complaint.

 

I've tried to decide what that would be.

 

The best I've come up with is that I've seen her take ACTIVE measures to ensure that this won't happen again. Not at my prompting or insistence, not just things I've suggested. But her own personal steps to prevent herself from ever getting into a position where she'd even get close to that line again.

 

And thats good. But for me that wouldn't do it. If a spouse of mine took those steps, it would give me some peace of mind I suppose, and is definitely needed if the marriage is to "survive".

 

But doing that wouldn't show me that she wants the marriage to survive because she wants me, it just shows that she wants the marriage for a reason....and the reason might not be for me.

 

 

That's one way that she's really shown me that she "gets it".

 

But how CAN someone "make it up to you" when it's all said and done? Other than show true and honest remorse, and take every possible step to help you recover, help the marriag recover, and prevent it from happening again...what else can anyone do?

 

 

If you don't mind me asking...how are things in the affection arena? Are you having sex more than twice a month? Is she cuddling up to you on the couch and telling you she loves you with some nice soft affectionate kisses?

[Dexter Morgan]

: But how CAN someone "make it up to you" when it's all said and done? Other than show true and honest remorse, and take every possible step to help you recover, help the marriag recover, and prevent it from happening again...what else can anyone do?

Thoughts?

 

How could you ask for anything more than that?

 

 

Read my post above...just taking steps to stop the cheating isn't enough. Someone can stop cheating simply because they don't want to lose their lifestyle, kids, money, home...etc. It doesn't mean they want the marriage for the RIGHT reasons.

[Snowflower]

 

...But how CAN someone "make it up to you" when it's all said and done? Other than show true and honest remorse, and take every possible step to help you recover, help the marriag recover, and prevent it from happening again...what else can anyone do?

 

Thoughts?

 

This is a good question because just like anything else in life, "what's done, is done." There is no going back and redoing anything no matter what.

 

I would like to add that my H has done and is continuing to do all the things mentioned here: true remorse, honesty, actively working to rebuild trust, etc. He is busting has a** everyday to make it up to me.

 

But almost more importantly, the best thing my H has done to make it up to me was the improvements he has actively made to his own character.

 

Recently, I re-read some of my old posts on another forum that I had written before I had found out the truth. My H had been acting weird and I was struggling to figure out what was wrong. I kept saying, "but he has always been a good guy." I've since seen other posters write similar things about their WS.

 

After he confessed everything and started IC and MC I saw the most interesting thing happen...my H changed for the better. Despite my own pain and the turmoil in our marriage-I could still see this change. As I said, he was always a good person before his "mistake", "bad decision", whatever. Now, after months of self-reflection...he has become a better person as a result. He changed...not into some unrecognizable character from who he was before, but just into a better, more fulfilled, mature, calm person. It is like his character has mellowed and improved after this crisis.

 

And this is what gives me the most hope and reassurance as well as the ability to let him make it up to me. If he had just remained the same "good" guy that he was before and was just trying to make it up-it would have taken a lot longer for me to accept what happened and move forward. Instead, my H has put his whole being into our marriage and this is doing so much to make it up to me and move us both forward.

[Owl]

So what WOULD your "something more" be??? Can you give examples of what that "something more" would be for you, Dex? I just don't have any idea what that "more" would be for me.

 

As far as showing affection/love/etc...

 

We've ALWAYS had a very affectionate relationship. The only time it wasn't was during the time up to and through the affair. It resumed LITERALLY the day she truly made her decision to work on reconciling our marriage.

 

Like any marriage, we have our up and down periods. We've had them even since her affair years ago. The ups are higher than they were prior to the affair, and the lows are nowhere near as low as they were prior to the affair.

 

We're in an "up" right now. We're intimate right now on average at least once/week. We spend our evenings either gaming together, or snuggled on the couch watching movies. She is very affectionate, and I'm the same way.

 

Good example of what I'm talking about...we're ALWAYS having people asking us "how long have you been married?". And they're always ASTONISHED when we tell them 21 years. They assume we're newlyweds, given the way we act together.

[Tired03]

Tired, You talk about forcing honesty. Honesty forced is not honesty. It is confrontation by the facts. It's the difference between finding out from an outside source, or from investigation, about an affair, or having the WS voluntarily confess. This a very important point in allowing the marriage to continue.

 

No, I'm not talking about the honesty surrounding the affair itself. But a marriage worked on through an affair often is more honest than many marriages in which complete and total honesty doesn't happen.

 

For instance, I know a couple who, although very faithful to each other, keep their innermost thoughts and feelings secret from each other. Though I am DEFINITELY not saying they should have an affair, and I wish no tragedy upon them, something needs to happen to wake them up to get to that point where they feel fully safe with each other.

 

I don't disagree with what you said above, but depends on the situation. For instance, some people took their spouses for granted in the marriage...others are just the victims of a spouse that simply can't stay faithful no matter how good home life is. Some just get bored with married/family life.

 

It does, of course, depend on the situation, as does everything else

[Snowflower]

[

 

For instance, I know a couple who, although very faithful to each other, keep their innermost thoughts and feelings secret from each other. Though I am DEFINITELY not saying they should have an affair, and I wish no tragedy upon them, something needs to happen to wake them up to get to that point where they feel fully safe with each other.

 

 

This was exactly the situation between my H and me before his affair. We both kept our innermost thoughts and feelings to ourselves. It was one of the myriad of things that had gone wrong between us. We were both to blame for this.

 

Good observation!

[Untouchable_Fire]

On the contrary Untouchable..........I do love him very much. (did then - do now)

 

I thought the same as you once, but I was wrong.

 

Love is an action... not a feeling.

 

You can feel love for something as you kill it, but in the act of killing it you show that feeling false.

 

When you speak of all of this...I am under the impression that you think that people who have affairs do not love their spouses. That is not correct. Different things happen in a marriage & at different times in a marriage (the death of a parent, illness, empty nesters)...that cause someone to look another direction for "affection."

I'm not condoning what I did - or really trying to justify it.

The events prior to it happening...Happened....The event itsself Happened! Can't change it...

 

Yes, we can't change what we have done. Nor can we change what it means.

 

You can't choose to love someone one day... then not the other.... then change again and claim undying love.

 

If you really love someone, it isn't fleeting or ephemeral. It's constant. You wake up every morning and say "I choose to love this person", even when that choice is hard.

 

If you abuse or hurt someone with clear intent... you don't love them. A man who physically abuses his wife does not love her. He loves himself only. A woman who emotionally abuses her husband does not love him. She loves herself only.

 

But, we are better off now than we have been in 10 years.

Sometimes events like this do bring people closer.

 

So this was a good thing? Then perhaps another affair would make it even better!!!

 

No, there is not a single ounce of good that has come of this that could not have been come from another source. It's very bad that you feel this was a positive for the relationship. Perhaps this was a positive for you. It was not for the relationship as a whole.

 

Because of the talks we have had about the "Issues" and the "Event"...I believe he is fine with the decision to stay together, he's forgiven me (as I have forgiven him for the horrible things that happened prior)...So, see...It can happen that people do grow closer when catastrophic things happen to their relationship

 

Why? Why do you believe he has made this choice?

 

If you really loved him, wouldn't you make your choices based on what is best for him?

[confusedinkansas]

I believe that he has made this choice because he loves me....as I do him. I never made a choice to Not love him anymore. I just think that because of the things that had happened....in my heart, I doubted my love for him. I know now that the love never went away, it was just muffled by all the THINGS that happen in life.

 

There have been many years that have passed (this is not a new affair, or a new issue for us anymore) - Lots has happened in the 7 years since the A (& the other things). We have had many talks, many arguements, & separated for a year.

 

I don't believe for a second that love is not a Feeling....it may be Both..a feeling & an action. It is not just an action.

 

No I don't think for a second another affair would make things that much better for us.

 

Untouchable: Do you really believe An Eye For An Eye...is the best thing for relationships?

[confusedinkansas]

I will say this.......I am glad this has sparked conversation.

 

I'm happy that there ARE SUCCESS stories out there.

 

I'm sorry for those of you that are still bitter about what happened to you. I was once very bitter as well. When LIFE throws us curveballs...some of us duck, others of us just get hit in the head with a knuckleball.

 

I've been on both ends of this. I know how it feels to be bitter, hurt, sad, devistated. I also know what it feels like to be happy, truly happy & content.

 

I am glad that we all have this forum to share our thoughts and feelings. Life is not all peaches & roses....But it also is not devistation & disaster either.

[Dexter Morgan]

Untouchable: Do you really believe An Eye For An Eye...is the best thing for relationships?

 

I dont know about untouch, but I don't think it is the best thing.

 

But then again, you really would have to take the position that it isn't the best thing....because it wasn't your eye that was poked out.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'm sorry for those of you that are still bitter about what happened to you.

 

I think this very sentence itself negates the bolded part.