Author Mahatma Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm sorry, but I could never love someone as they were preparing to chop off my head with a machete, and I could never find anything but hatred in my heart for someone who would do such a thing to another person. Not that I would wield the sword of justice, but I would most certainly feel loathing toward them. You may not like that person, and that is understandable. I do not welcome terrorism, and I would certainly voice my opinion to a terrorist. But never would I say I hate a terrorist. There are people out there who get a rise out of being deviant and being killers and torturing. These types of people deserve to be punished. I do not think punishing someone in this life is a problem if they killed someone, and I am not arguing against that. There is no way to know someones true beliefs. However, once again, many people continue to say what THEY would do. This is why you are not Gods. None of you are all understanding. I really wish this thread would go in the direction I have tried to aim it. The question is whether or not a god would punish a person who did whatever they did, believing totally that it was right. This is not about what happens here on earth. Maybe out of all the terrorists in history, only one guy believed fully in what he was doing, but still the question arises... what is done to them in the afterlife? ... and lets not speak on behalf of people we do not know at all. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It depends. Many believe God will forgive should they repent, ask forgiveness and belive in the right system or concept of God. And by no other means will a person be saved, no matter what a persons behaviour, good or bad in man's eye can they earn their way to sit by God for eternity. The religious/political terrorist believes he is following God's instructions, just as the Jews were commanded to commit genocide on entire cities. By faith they overcome the general socialization not to kill innocents because it is as God wills. The Tim McVeighs would be condemmed not for the murders, but for the lack of faith even though they thought they were right in fighting the strength of goverenment. Or another way to say it the majority banding together to steal from others in the way of taxes and fees needed to be resisted, violently. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The famous example of Stephen in the Bible is a good example of the ideal of being forgiving of others, however that doesn't mean the men who killed him were not evil. Indeed if they were not evil perhaps they would not need to be forgiven. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Is there any religious writing that indicates it's okay to kill, providing the mortal man who committed the murder believes strongly enough that he's right? I doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Is there any religious writing that indicates it's okay to kill, providing the mortal man who committed the murder believes strongly enough that he's right? I doubt it. Not to my knowledge, indeed the mosaic law provided stiff penalties for ACCIDENTALLY causing a fatality. For instance if two men were scuffling and caused a pregnant woman to miscarry they were considered murderers. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Is there any religious writing that indicates it's okay to kill, providing the mortal man who committed the murder believes strongly enough that he's right? I doubt it. Not everyone lets their beliefs be governed by a book or by the writings of another human. Not everyone thinks like you, acts like you, or believes like you. Not everyone has the same things offered to them that you do. Different experiences. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Not everyone lets their beliefs be governed by a book or by the writings of another human. Not everyone thinks like you, acts like you, or believes like you. Not everyone has the same things offered to them that you do. Different experiences. Then why did you even start this thread? I mean, if we aren't supposed to go by what God (or Buddah or whoever based on your particular religion) is purported to have said about the subject, what's the point in hashing it over? Otherwise we're going by what MEN and WOMEN would say, which is contrary to the point of this entire thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Well, my theology current tells me that these people would not and should not be punished if they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. The person to be punished is the person who twisted and brainwashed the person. The reason for this thread was to see if anyone could offer some insight. The only insight I feel has any sort of merit so far is that human nature is to not kill each other. This was not my idea, and I first saw it here. That is why I made this thread. I still believe though, that if someone genuinely believed or was brainwashed that they were doing the right thing, that a truly understanding god would not punish them in the afterlife. However, whether or not it is human nature to just know killing other humans is wrong, I do not know. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Well, my theology current tells me So is this something you read, or something someone told you? Either way, you are "letting your beliefs be governed by a book or by the writings of another human." Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 However, whether or not it is human nature to just know killing other humans is wrong, I do not know. Since I would have to believe that it is human nature to not want to die, wouldn't it make sense that a human should just KNOW it's wrong since they wouldn't want it to happen to them? And don't bring the suicide bombers into this. They were told some fantasy about 40 virgins and other rubbish. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 What theology is this that you speak of Mahatma and how does this add to anything in the here and now? Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 However, whether or not it is human nature to just know killing other humans is wrong, I do not know. Well every human society ever to exist has quickly proscribed murder, so I'd say it's pretty certain to be a built in behavior for most people. But why even wonder that? Just because a sociopath doesn't internalize the concept that murder is wrong doesn't mean he can go on a killing spree and not be evil. Again since this is taking on a religious slant, I'd paraphrase one of the Bible writers when he said that people not bound by the law still do things as if they were. Certain behaviors result in unsuccessful social organizations and those traits tend to not survive. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 So is this something you read, or something someone told you? Either way, you are "letting your beliefs be governed by a book or by the writings of another human." This theology is just one I have developed over time through things I have read or experienced. I do not ascribe to any specific book. In my earlier years of life (seriously early like age 1-9) I was a "christian." I was at least instilled with some of the basic beliefs. After that I just started experimenting with different religious beliefs and learning about them. For probably the past year, I have studied Buddhism, but I can not really say I am a true Buddhist or even close. Since I would have to believe that it is human nature to not want to die, wouldn't it make sense that a human should just KNOW it's wrong since they wouldn't want it to happen to them? And don't bring the suicide bombers into this. They were told some fantasy about 40 virgins and other rubbish. I think some people actually are neutral towards life and death. Not the majority. I still think though if say I had been told since birth that all people named Jack were evil and should be destroyed, and that all of humanity would benefit from it and I would be rewarded for eternity for it, I would most likely be a Jack killer. What theology is this that you speak of Mahatma and how does this add to anything in the here and now? Regards, Eve xx As explained above, it is just one I have collected for myself. It is my personal one. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 This theology is just one I have developed over time through things I have read or experienced. Okay. Like I thought. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Yoda's a tricksy little c*nt too. Link to post Share on other sites
elaina Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I so not think that most Islamic suicide bombers and fighters (or jihadists) are bad people. I think many of them sincerely think that they are doing what God wants them to do. I just think they are ignorant or have blindly followed the teachings of leaders who claim they are doing what God wants them to do. (and the leaders could either be sincere in thinking a lie or could just be power-hungry, greedy for something...) For example, I think the Crusades were led by people who either ignorantly believed a lie or who were just greedy. I do not think God wanted the Crusaders to go killing Arabs and Jewish people and Greek Orthodox and other Christians who did not believe how they do. It is all very sad, when people believe God wants them to kill someone else. I understand why athiests look at that and say, wow something's not right with that! Yes, it is very difficult for a person who is Muslim or from the Nation of Islam to accept Jesus as their Savior and become a Christian in public. All those reasons you give are true. It takes an amazing experience with God and a brave person totally surrendered to God to stand up against all those factors that would cripple most people's determination. Most people who are Muslim haven't really "chosen" Islam. Most are born into it. There are yeah those who "revert", but most are born into a Muslim family. Many Muslims are Muslims in name only and not so much in zeal, and there are others who are very good people, and there are others who are fanatical. No, I do not think God judges them the same as He does those who have not been born into Islam. The reason I think this is because God is the Master Mathematician and He knows the equations of everybody. He knows that no two people are the same, and He knows the circumstances, the abilities, the thoughts, actions, everything of every person. I do not believe that God judges a person with who is mentally challenged the same as someone who is not mentally challenged for example. I am not meaning that those who are born into Islam are mentally challenged, no! I just mean that God judges people based on each aspect of their lives, and He understands that the circumstances in each person's life. C.S.Lewis, a very interesting Christian who was a form of Atheist before becoming a Christian, thought that some people are saved (as we Christians like to say for someone who is going to Heaven) even though they do not know they are and they do not consider themselves Christian. It's very interesting this though.. you should study it. Many Christians heartily disagree with this, but it is interesting to think about and God knows. Link to post Share on other sites
Chat Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Muslims vehemently separate themselves from extremists. No the Qur'an does not teach this, but terrorist leaders do. The people who are taught this firmly believe it. I don't think the Qur'an teaches anything that is remotley 'evil', hadith on the other hand.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I don't think the Qur'an teaches anything that is remotley 'evil', hadith on the other hand.... The bible does not teach hellfire, but some people sure get it from there. Link to post Share on other sites
Chat Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 The Hadith I have encountered it goes against the Prophets teachings, and the Qu'ran. I find that more Muslims will consult Hadith than they will the Qu'ran. The Bible doesnt teach hellfire? I went to Sunday school and stuff as a kid - my Mother was crazy Christian - hellfire was one of the staples of the religion. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 The Hadith I have encountered it goes against the Prophets teachings, and the Qu'ran. I find that more Muslims will consult Hadith than they will the Qu'ran. The Bible doesnt teach hellfire? I went to Sunday school and stuff as a kid - my Mother was crazy Christian - hellfire was one of the staples of the religion. Yes, your mother was a "crazy Christian" she taught you hellfire. Maybe your Sunday school taught it. However, your bible did not. Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 IMO you're trying to absolve the individual of all moral responsibility. A bit like the Nuremburg defence. I think all humans are aware of basic moral precepts like empathy, the golden rule, and not deliberately taking innocent life. People can think independently and are not blank slates that have to accept everything they are told without question. In any case, Islam clearly states that killing innocent people is wrong. For example, virtually muslim theologians all agree that nuclear weapons are immoral, whereas not all christian theologians do. Given that the Koran specifically prohibits anything like suicide bombing, there is not even the "my culture said so" defence. I think anyone who is considering taking a life in a premeditated way has a responsibility to very seriously consider the morality of their actions. The basic law of all morality is, what would I feel about this if I were in the other person's shoes? Suicide bombers either don't do this, or they do it and don't give a damn about their victims. They fail to follow far superior ways of resolving conflicts, like non-violent protest or political agitation, or even targeting military opponents rather than civilians. By not thinking for themselves, not questioning demonstrably murderous orders, not making any attempt at empathy for their victims, not following the golden rule, and ignoring alternative ways to try and resolve conflict, they are not just bad people, but hideous, evil people. They are responsible for many of the worst atrocities in human history, and knowingly bring suffering and misery to huge numbers of people, as well as exacerbating conflicts and escalating a cycle of violence. IMO you are making the classic mistake of trying to take a purely rational/reasoned approach to morality. At its core, morality is partly instinct and empathy, not pure reason. If something feels wrong, it probably is. Blowing up innocent people definitely feels wrong, and no amount of reasoning can change that fact. Trying to use pure reason in moral discussions inevitably results in rationalizing evil. Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Muslims vehemently separate themselves from extremists. No the Qur'an does not teach this, but terrorist leaders do. The people who are taught this firmly believe it. If they stopped and thought how the victim's family and loved ones would feel, and possessed an ounce of empathy, they would cringe at the horror of their actions. Therefore they are either violent sociopaths (i.e. bad), or are willing to murder without giving any thought and consideration to their victims (also bad). Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 all governments are, when you think about it ... Swiss government? Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 If Trial was brought up and told by the majority of the people he knew that he would explode upon reaching the age of 18, I guarantee you he would believe it. Same if he was brought up and taught that killing westerners was a good thing. Clearly false. If this were true, all humans would believe the same as their parents. I was personally brought up by two catholics, sent to catholic school. I've been an atheist since I first had the concept of god explained to me, and share few values with my parents, teachers, schools or society. You have a provably incorrect view of humans as being unable to think for themselves or exercise any judgement of scepticism. Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Yes morality most certainly is relative. The golden rule exists almost universally across cultures and individuals. Link to post Share on other sites
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