christian6 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 The guy in this situation did the opposite of that fully knowing what the deal was and now he expects her to just jump ship. Is that fair? No, he should have walked away earlier because this issue about her male business partner is not a trivial one that can be sorted out easily. I do have to say that the comment about this being a power struggle is unfair.
ella23 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 you two are obviously mismatched. read all your posts here, you two are too different.
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I know it will be in my interest but I would feel somewhat embarrassed going alone. It's counseling for marriage after all.Yes, it does seem a bit awkward, but perhaps thinking of it as IC (individual counseling) with the goal of PMC would be a helpful mindset. Outlining the dynamic to the counselor will bring things into focus. They deal with such matters all the time. Also, as a successful businessperson, you make decisions and take actions that seem awkward and downright risky all the time. The emotional dynamic of such events should be familiar to and manageable by you. SOP (standard operating procedure) I do have to say that the comment about this being a power struggle is unfair. The OP (and I) could really benefit from hearing your definition of what a power struggle is in a relationship and why it is unfair in this instance. Our psych watered it down as having "disparate perspectives" but I know a classic power struggle when I see one, even though these two aren't married yet. Still, an open mind is a valuable thing, so let's hear it.... you two are obviously mismatched. read all your posts here, you two are too different. Superficially, I might agree, but we're seeing only one, albeit glaring, aspect of the OP's relationship. IMO, the important work is for her to see the totality (which we have no understanding) of the R in a clear and healthy way and to make her own decision as to how matched or mismatched she and her fiance are. They aren't engaged because it's just cool for a consultant and investment banker to be together. It didn't get there out of propriety and convenience and a nosy sister . There's something more. She's working this difficult realization out. One day at a time
christian6 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 The OP (and I) could really benefit from hearing your definition of what a power struggle is in a relationship and why it is unfair in this instance. Our psych watered it down as having "disparate perspectives" but I know a classic power struggle when I see one, even though these two aren't married yet. Still, an open mind is a valuable thing, so let's hear it.... There are several men who are possessive of their women like this one. He's uncomfortable with the situation so he's requesting her to change her job, since he is marrying her. He wants to be with her but it is too much for him to be able to accept the issue in the long term. Of course it is not fully fair of him to do that, but what does that have to do with power play? What makes you call it a power struggle?
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 He's placing her making a life-changing choice at the altar of their relationship. She resists. He holds the engagement hostage. So does she (I'm projecting here). Classic power struggle by two strong-minded individuals. He's even got backup (the "nosy" sister). If that ain't a power move, I don't know what is. I vomit on manipulative families
christian6 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 He's placing her making a life-changing choice at the altar of their relationship. She resists. He holds the engagement hostage. So does she (I'm projecting here). Classic power struggle by two strong-minded individuals. He's even got backup (the "nosy" sister). If that ain't a power move, I don't know what is. I vomit on manipulative families what does it have to do with POWER? You mean as in dominating the relationship ?
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Wow, I guess you've never been married Power was a substantial topic of discussion in MC for my wife and I. It is also adjunct to my "the person who cares the least has the most control" theory of relational dynamics. Let's see how the thread unfolds but I'm going to predict, barring PMC, a monumental power struggle here
ella23 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Superficially, I might agree, but we're seeing only one, albeit glaring, aspect of the OP's relationship. IMO, the important work is for her to see the totality (which we have no understanding) of the R in a clear and healthy way and to make her own decision as to how matched or mismatched she and her fiance are. They aren't engaged because it's just cool for a consultant and investment banker to be together. It didn't get there out of propriety and convenience and a nosy sister . There's something more. She's working this difficult realization out. One day at a time Well, that is true. It is essential to know the totality of the relationship. But from what I read, everything she described makes them look mismatched. However, as for the sister, while she was being nosy, I have to say on reading again that what she said is true. Most women would know that this much closeness will make your future boyfriends uncomfortable, and it was a little bit naive to not do that. But yeah, not the sis's business at all.
sally4sara Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Well, that is true. It is essential to know the totality of the relationship. But from what I read, everything she described makes them look mismatched. However, as for the sister, while she was being nosy, I have to say on reading again that what she said is true. Most women would know that this much closeness will make your future boyfriends uncomfortable, and it was a little bit naive to not do that. But yeah, not the sis's business at all. Only if you're willing to date those kinds of boyfriends. A bunch of my fiancee's Male friends came into town for the holidays. I brought this thread up. I explained it very matter of fact, not even mentioning gender or the two people involved. "A friend of mine wants to get married to their SO, but only if their SO gives up their 6 year old successful business. You see, their business partner is of the opposite sex and it makes my friend uncomfortable to have them travel together, work long hours and whatnot." A resounding "That's effed up of your friend! Tell your friend they need to grow the eff up!" I feel for the OP on this one. I don't believe this is so much a thing that her BF thinks will bother him more and more over time. Nor do I think its about how much he really really wants to marry her. I think he likes looking at her and having sex and finds her accommodating as a GF, but this has been pissing him off as much from go as it does now. So he waited till he knew she was invested and figures a proposal will get rid of what has been bothering him all along.
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 But from what I read, everything she described makes them look mismatched.Maybe sis has someone else in mind for him Maybe, maybe, oh, the mind games that people play.... I agree, from my armchair Sunday morning quarterback position, indeed the OP and her fiance to appear mismatched. The issue is two-fold: first, my opinion is really irrelevant to her dynamic and I'm forming it based on detailed information about only one aspect of their relationship and, two, she has to accept your (and my) assertion as her truth for it to have any weight on her decision-making process. She loves the guy, even though she might discuss the problem in a matter-of-fact way. That's her personality. OP, if you base the male responses here as an indicator of the larger population and are very conservative, you might opine that less than 1% of the single male population in the UK would be open to and positive about a relationship with a woman in your position. That's still a lot of guys, don't you think? IMO, don't compromise your principles based on no one else being out there (as you suggested a couple times). They are Base your decision on the specific dynamics of your relationship and its health. Is it healthy interdependence? You decide....
norajane Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 yeah, well, he's always had issues with this, but 3 days after proposing he said, "look we need to sort this out", etc, and that hit me like a ton of rocks. I won't do anything to marry him, I'm not that desperate! I did say that I won't marry him till he doesn't trust me and the rest of the things you mentioned, but he started saying rubbish like "why does bp and business mean more than me", "I trust you but not other men", etc. So he doesn't take you seriously when you say that you won't marry him until he trusts you. If he did take you seriously, he'd be a bit more concerned about losing you and more concerned about understanding your point of view. If he trusts you, it doesn't matter what other men do. You won't do anything no matter what other men do if you are loyal to your fiancee. And, as I said before, destroying your business relationship doesn't guarantee you won't cheat with your business partner or some other man if you were inclined to do so. In fact, it would make it easier to cheat with your business partner since the business will no longer be a factor. And if your fiancee can't understand why your business would be important to you, then he's deliberately being obtuse.
sally4sara Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 He does love me, he really has no other reason to want to marry me. OP, I don't doubt that your BF loves you. Just that perhaps his kind of love isn't a nurturing one or isn't good enough or right for you. Sometimes we marry a person for certain qualities and not who they intrinsically are. I want you to make very sure that WHOEVER you marry loves you in a way that will satisfy you in the long term. You are not obligated to marry anyone just because they love you however they are capable of loving someone. I won't do anything to marry him, I'm not that desperate! and he started saying rubbish like "why does bp and business mean more than me", "I trust you but not other men", etc. I feel relieved to hear this from you. I'm glad you recognize that logic to be rubbish. Please don't forget it.
Author dnm Posted January 4, 2009 Author Posted January 4, 2009 So he doesn't take you seriously when you say that you won't marry him until he trusts you. If he did take you seriously, he'd be a bit more concerned about losing you and more concerned about understanding your point of view. Perhaps I should be melodramatic and throw away his ring and walk out and see if he does anything and finally takes me seriously? Maybe sis has someone else in mind for him Maybe, maybe, oh, the mind games that people play.... ? I think he likes looking at her and having sex and finds her accommodating as a GF, but this has been pissing him off as much from go as it does now. So he waited till he knew she was invested and figures a proposal will get rid of what has been bothering him all along. Yes, he has always frowned upon it. But I can't believe he actually thinks I'm going to quit because he has proposed. How can he think that way? As for the first line, I don't know...but I hope he hasn't purely proposed so that I would quit and not because he actually really wants to marry me. However, as for the sister, while she was being nosy, I have to say on reading again that what she said is true. Most women would know that this much closeness will make your future boyfriends uncomfortable, and it was a little bit naive to not do that. But yeah, not the sis's business at all. Well, okay, I may have been naive to not have thought of the impact on my personal life, but in that sense I think even if I had given it some thought I would not have foreseen that it would be something this major. He's placing her making a life-changing choice at the altar of their relationship. She resists. He holds the engagement hostage. So does she (I'm projecting here). Classic power struggle by two strong-minded individuals. He's even got backup (the "nosy" sister). If that ain't a power move, I don't know what is. I vomit on manipulative families I'm not really holding the engagement hostage. I should get a backup now. Yes, it does seem a bit awkward, but perhaps thinking of it as IC (individual counseling) with the goal of PMC would be a helpful mindset. Outlining the dynamic to the counselor will bring things into focus. They deal with such matters all the time. Also, as a successful businessperson, you make decisions and take actions that seem awkward and downright risky all the time. The emotional dynamic of such events should be familiar to and manageable by you. SOP (standard operating procedure) Businessperson. I'm glad you used that rather than businesswoman. Politically correct. Yes, but somehow adopting business policies and pratices to my personal life feels strange. But it would perhaps be the best thing that I can do for myself. And him(or not). The OP (and I) could really benefit from hearing your definition of what a power struggle is in a relationship and why it is unfair in this instance. Our psych watered it down as having "disparate perspectives" but I know a classic power struggle when I see one, even though these two aren't married yet. Still, an open mind is a valuable thing, so let's hear it.... To me it doesn't feel like a power struggle or power play, but my brain is messed up these days so I can't say. Why would he want to have a power struggle against me? you two are obviously mismatched. read all your posts here, you two are too different. No, we are not 'obviously' mismatched. I don't need to read my posts, I wrote them after all!
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 OP, we're (at least speaking for myself) casting out scenarios based on our personal life experiences which may or may not be applicable to your situation. We're not offended if they don't apply. It's the discussion and debate of the possibilities, just like during a business brainstorming session, which comes up with solutions or new perspectives to be embraced. It's not who's right, but getting it right for everyone involved, meaning you and your fiance. The key here is being willing to explore the possibilities. BTW, in the past (discounting recent visit by sis), how supportive has your fiance's family been of your relationship? What's your "vibe-meter" telling you?
norajane Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 But I can't believe he actually thinks I'm going to quit because he has proposed. How can he think that way? Yes, he does think so. That's why he waited 3 days after he proposed and then told you he wants you to quit. And he hasn't budged an inch since, has he? He believes you'll quit because you want to marry him - the marriage is his trump card. To me it doesn't feel like a power struggle or power play, but my brain is messed up these days so I can't say. Why would he want to have a power struggle against me? He wants his way. He wants to "win" and get his way, regardless of the impact his way might have on you, both as an individual and as part of the couple. He doesn't realize it would be a hollow victory, since it's not likely you'd be HAPPY or FEEL GOOD about getting married under those circumstances. Now, he just wants to "win". He's placed himself on one side, and your business and partner on the other. He created this power struggle by pitting your needs against his wants.
Author dnm Posted January 4, 2009 Author Posted January 4, 2009 OP, we're (at least speaking for myself) casting out scenarios based on our personal life experiences which may or may not be applicable to your situation. We're not offended if they don't apply. It's the discussion and debate of the possibilities, just like during a business brainstorming session, which comes up with solutions or new perspectives to be embraced. It's not who's right, but getting it right for everyone involved, meaning you and your fiance. Oh yes, I got that, but by asking why, I meant how and in what way do you think all those things(power play, etc) apply to my situation. BTW, in the past (discounting recent visit by sis), how supportive has your fiance's family been of your relationship? What's your "vibe-meter" telling you? I get along well with his family, they have always been good to me, especially his parents and brother. But his sister is a bit mean to me sometimes.
Author dnm Posted January 4, 2009 Author Posted January 4, 2009 Yes, he does think so. That's why he waited 3 days after he proposed and then told you he wants you to quit. And he hasn't budged an inch since, has he? He believes you'll quit because you want to marry him - the marriage is his trump card. That's being overconfident then. He wants his way. He wants to "win" and get his way, regardless of the impact his way might have on you, both as an individual and as part of the couple. He doesn't realize it would be a hollow victory, since it's not likely you'd be HAPPY or FEEL GOOD about getting married under those circumstances. Now, he just wants to "win". He's placed himself on one side, and your business and partner on the other. He created this power struggle by pitting your needs against his wants. Win? We are in a relationship, not in the workplace competing against each other! OP, I don't doubt that your BF loves you. Just that perhaps his kind of love isn't a nurturing one or isn't good enough or right for you. Sometimes we marry a person for certain qualities and not who they intrinsically are. I want you to make very sure that WHOEVER you marry loves you in a way that will satisfy you in the long term. You are not obligated to marry anyone just because they love you however they are capable of loving someone. Oh okay. Things have mostly been good between us barring this, because the arguing is taking a toll on the relationship. I feel relieved to hear this from you. I'm glad you recognize that logic to be rubbish. Please don't forget it. Yeah, I don't get why he doesn't realise that I won't agree to marry him if I was even remotely interested in some other man. And I never understood the "I trust you but not other men" line.
carhill Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Think about how you use assets to leverage business negotiations. You zero in on what the real want from the client is and how to maximize the profit from the assets you're willing to commit and being willing to walk away (or at least present that appearance). Think about the power dynamic in those instances and how you instinctively use your skills, both socially and in business, to swing the balance of power your way. Otherwise, you'd just be a volunteer, right? The subject matter and dynamics of interpersonal relationships are different, but the base balance of the id versus the desire for companionship needs to be maintained to have personal health. Each party has their own version of that base balance and uses their assets and personal power to swing the balance in a way which is satisfying and comfortable for them. When perspectives are markedly different, like you seem to be outlining here, the prospect of more marked uses of assets and personal power (your attractiveness, your intelligence, your ability to be a good partner, as examples) begin to be utilized as negotiation tools, rather than the dynamic resting upon reasonable responses to reasonable requests or concerns. The terms "reasonable" and "inappropriate" were two terms used by our MC in exploring this dynamic, along with the term "responsibility". This is why I think you would benefit from PMC. A skilled psychologist can explain these concepts far more accurately and completely than I ever could and apply them specifically to your circumstances, since s/he would know *all* of your business, not simply this one aspect. Hope that helps!
Tomcat33 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 And I never understood the "I trust you but not other men" line. It's his underhanded way of telling you he ultimately doesn't trust you. Who cares what other men are about if he knows you will not budge on temptation.
norajane Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Win? We are in a relationship, not in the workplace competing against each other! But that's precisely how he's set up this situation - as a competition between him and your business. You can see that in his question: he started saying rubbish like "why does bp and business mean more than me",
Author dnm Posted January 4, 2009 Author Posted January 4, 2009 But that's precisely how he's set up this situation - as a competition between him and your business. You can see that in his question: Well okay, but the thought of this being some kind of competition is repulsive. Think about how you use assets to leverage business negotiations. You zero in on what the real want from the client is and how to maximize the profit from the assets you're willing to commit and being willing to walk away (or at least present that appearance). Think about the power dynamic in those instances and how you instinctively use your skills, both socially and in business, to swing the balance of power your way. Otherwise, you'd just be a volunteer, right? The subject matter and dynamics of interpersonal relationships are different, but the base balance of the id versus the desire for companionship needs to be maintained to have personal health. Each party has their own version of that base balance and uses their assets and personal power to swing the balance in a way which is satisfying and comfortable for them. When perspectives are markedly different, like you seem to be outlining here, the prospect of more marked uses of assets and personal power (your attractiveness, your intelligence, your ability to be a good partner, as examples) begin to be utilized as negotiation tools, rather than the dynamic resting upon reasonable responses to reasonable requests or concerns. The terms "reasonable" and "inappropriate" were two terms used by our MC in exploring this dynamic, along with the term "responsibility". This is why I think you would benefit from PMC. A skilled psychologist can explain these concepts far more accurately and completely than I ever could and apply them specifically to your circumstances, since s/he would know *all* of your business, not simply this one aspect. Hope that helps! Yes, it does actually , thanks! I can tell more about me/him if needed here, too. It's his underhanded way of telling you he ultimately doesn't trust you. Who cares what other men are about if he knows you will not budge on temptation. He has no reason to not trust me; I have always been faithful to him, and I have no history of ever cheating on any of my past boyfriends either.
ella23 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 He wants his way. He wants to "win" and get his way, regardless of the impact his way might have on you, both as an individual and as part of the couple. He doesn't realize it would be a hollow victory, since it's not likely you'd be HAPPY or FEEL GOOD about getting married under those circumstances. Now, he just wants to "win". He's placed himself on one side, and your business and partner on the other. He created this power struggle by pitting your needs against his wants. He could be feeling genuinely threatened, not necessarily wanting to play mind games with her. He can't be blamed entirely for their problems though, because if she has no intention of leaving her business, she should tell him straight away, instead of raising his hopes. BTW, I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that there are two sides to every story, and I can see where he is coming from, too.
Tomcat33 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 He has no reason to not trust me; I have always been faithful to him, and I have no history of ever cheating on any of my past boyfriends either. I know what you are saying and I believe you, it is so frustrating when you know what's what and there is no way of getting that through to the other person. It's at that point when you sincerely need to look at why you are even trying that hard. If you can honestly look at yourself and say I know in my heart that I don't do anything to make this man feel this way, then you really need to expand your vision and consider the big picture, ie. HIM.
ella23 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I get along well with his family, they have always been good to me, especially his parents and brother. But his sister is a bit mean to me sometimes. You both don't get along in general or is it only because of this particular problem?
james123 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I feel for the OP on this one. I don't believe this is so much a thing that her BF thinks will bother him more and more over time. Nor do I think its about how much he really really wants to marry her. I think he likes looking at her and having sex and finds her accommodating as a GF, but this has been pissing him off as much from go as it does now. So he waited till he knew she was invested and figures a proposal will get rid of what has been bothering him all along. Some of you ladies here are making this man look like some scheming evil monster! So he finds her attractive to look at, likes the sex, finds her compatible? Aren't all those significant reasons for wanting to get hitched to your woman? Anyway, have you actually gone ahead from the arguing or is the same quarreling happening again and again?
Recommended Posts