Is this proof?

[EllaDerSpin]

Because I wouldn't hurt if I didn't love him.

You hurt because you want him to love you. If you didnt want him to love you back, you wouldnt hurt. Loving somebody does not hurt you.

[sunshinegirl]

Wow, these are some pretty profound posts about unconditional love.

 

Can one still be hurt if it's unconditional love?

 

I've heard people say that they think the only unconditional love that exists is between parent and child. Well, parents and kids hurt each other all the time - does experiencing hurt in these relationships mean that the love isn't unconditional?

 

That being said I do think most romantic love is conditional. I thought I loved my ex unconditionally - in fact the day we broke up he asked how I could love him so unconditionally - it was a foreign concept to him. Of course at the time I didn't know he had cheated so I was all concerned about him and his 'confusion'. When I found out about the cheating, suddenly reservoirs of hurt and pain and anger came pouring out and I have since had to reevaluate the nature of my love for him. Part of me does want him to find deep happiness - to sort out his demons and figure out how to show up emotionally in his own life. But that part is still buried under a lot of pain and upset over what he did to me. So I don't know if it's unconditional or not.

 

In the OP's situation, what does seem clear is that this love has become an obsession of some kind, where she can't clearly see her love object's frailties and flaws. He is still on a pedestal and I am not convinced that unconditional love can exist between two people when one insists on seeing the other as perfect and wonderful and themselves as crap and not worth being loved.

[audrey_1]

In the OP's situation, what does seem clear is that this love has become an obsession of some kind, where she can't clearly see her love object's frailties and flaws. He is still on a pedestal and I am not convinced that unconditional love can exist between two people when one insists on seeing the other as perfect and wonderful and themselves as crap and not worth being loved.

 

I don't think unconditional love can exist with the pedestal syndrome. The person who sees the other as "perfect" is placing conditions on them to fit their idea of perfection, which can't be lived up to, nor should anyone want to try. This is why I broke my engagement. He was in love with his idea of me, not who I truly am. This was a deal breaker. I am not perfect and want someone who doesn't expect me to be.

[EllaDerSpin]

Its not really about whether the love is conditional or not. Its about seperating what is actually causing unhappiness.

[Ronni_W]

I've heard people say that they think the only unconditional love that exists is between parent and child.

I tend to go with the idea that only GOD (whatever or whoever that means for individuals, and whatever name he/she/it is called) is capable of real, genuine, honest-to-goodness "unconditional love". Which, of course, the whole concept of "unconditional love" is open to interpretation...and therefore, dispute.

 

For humans, I like the definition that goes: "I love you for who you are; because you exist. But you will treat me properly, or there will be consequences." But really, I don't know too many humans who can consistently love any person (or child) just for who they are -- we are always finding something to complain about, are we not? Some piece of behaviour that we'd really like to change -- in others and ourselves.

 

'I' take it personally when 'you' don't take out the garbage, or won't go to the ballet with me. I say that would be you "treating me properly", if you just take out the trash and do something you don't really want to do.

 

Within my interpretation of "unconditional love", there is a big part of me that has to stay totally detached from whatever 'you' get up to, and think, and do. I can't be all anxious and concerned about 'YOUR' consequences of your chosen path and actions -- I have to allow YOU to choose for yourself -- I am called upon to love you despite what I see as your "wrong" choices; regardless of the harm you may bring upon yourself; to be there with and for you AFTER you have experienced whatever you chose for your Self to experience, no matter if I view it as positive or negative.

 

For me, it's quite large. And I am nowhere close to it. But I do aspire to it

 

I agree with you that "unconditional love" doesn't co-exist with putting someone on a pedestal -- if I can't see any flaws, I can't possibly love those flaws, which means I'm not at all loving the WHOLE of that person, which to me is what loving unconditionally means...loving 'you' no matter and regardless of the imperfections and dysfunctional crap that 'you' also have going on.

And I don't think I can truly love ANY of 'your' flaws or your good stuff until I have learned to totally accept and love my OWN good stuff...and flaws. But yes, I can certainly wish for you to be happy and successful even if I don't have self-love and am incapable of unconditional love.

 

For OP, Sedg, definitely the LOVE that you have is genuine, worthy and worthwhile...whether it is unconditional or conditional doesn't detract from that. For me, it's a Universal Truth that all love is worthy and worthwhile.

So maybe it is that your beliefs about, and trust and faith in, your own Love ...perhaps those are what have become clouded due to your experience with BassPlayer? Are you open to exploring your personal definitions and beliefs of what it means to love the self, and another, and where/how unconditional love fits in?

[EllaDerSpin]

Putting someone on a pedestal is a form of judgement. Judgement of another cannot exist without judgement to the self. Either that the self is better or worse. In this case it is the judgement of him (and you) that is causing the unhappiness, not the love.

[gd26]

You guys are awesome... you've really hit the nail on the head about the qualities of unconditional love... how it does not depend on someone loving you back, and how love is not unconditional if you put someone on a pedestal. The bottom line is that if you love someone unconditionally, you allow him/her to move on with his/her life if that's what he/she really wants. Trying to find ways to manipulate someone to be with you is not unconditional love because you are putting your own needs ahead of what is either best for that person or what that person really wants. It may be super hard to let go, and takes a lot of love and courage to let someone out of your life who has been so special... but no one says that loving unconditionally is always easy. But if that's what the person wants, let the person go.

 

Reading these thoughts was great. Thanks!

[Ronni_W]

either best for that person or what that person really wants.

Within my definition: What that person really wants, really IS what is really best for him or her .

 

It's only when I come in with all my views and judgments, which I call my "wisdom, good advice and having your best interests in my heart", that things get all screwy.

How often do we do some form of "but if you do that, then I'll be affected like this...Why don't you do it this way, instead...It will be so much better for you if you do that, not this" ???

We do it to partners, parents, kids, co-workers, cashiers...it don't matter, it seems. We act like we think that we know better what is best for any- and everyone else. We humans are a funny bunch, indeed. That's why I love us so much...cos we're basically all freakin' the same

[EllaDerSpin]

Within my definition: What that person really wants, really IS what is really best for him or her .

 

It's only when I come in with all my views and judgments, which I call my "wisdom, good advice and having your best interests in my heart", that things get all screwy.

How often do we do some form of "but if you do that, then I'll be affected like this...Why don't you do it this way, instead...It will be so much better for you if you do that, not this" ???

We do it to partners, parents, kids, co-workers, cashiers...it don't matter, it seems. We act like we think that we know better what is best for any- and everyone else. We humans are a funny bunch, indeed. That's why I love us so much...cos we're basically all freakin' the same

I love reading your posts, you're great.

[audrey_1]

Within my definition: What that person really wants, really IS what is really best for him or her .

 

It's only when I come in with all my views and judgments, which I call my "wisdom, good advice and having your best interests in my heart", that things get all screwy.

How often do we do some form of "but if you do that, then I'll be affected like this...Why don't you do it this way, instead...It will be so much better for you if you do that, not this" ???

We do it to partners, parents, kids, co-workers, cashiers...it don't matter, it seems. We act like we think that we know better what is best for any- and everyone else. We humans are a funny bunch, indeed. That's why I love us so much...cos we're basically all freakin' the same

 

Yep. A tough pill to swallow, but these sentiments are why I think I love the object of my current frustrating situation without condition. I want him to be happy no matter what, with or without me. Now if I can only set myself free...

[Ronni_W]

Audrey, looks like you've already completed Steps 1 through 5 (of self-liberation.)

Step 6 - want yourself to be happy no matter what, with or without him. Maybe?

 

Ella, thanks for your positive comment...very much appreciated

[sunshinegirl]

Within my definition: What that person really wants, really IS what is really best for him or her .

 

Out of curiosity: does that hold true even if the person is doing things that are patently self-destructive (substance abuse, self-sabotage, etc)?

 

I don't have a specific situation in mind, but it seems as though you would then be cheerleading that person into further self-harming behaviors in the name of unconditional love.

[Ronni_W]

Out of curiosity: does that hold true even if the person is doing things that are patently self-destructive (substance abuse, self-sabotage, etc)?

Please note I'm NOT saying that I can do this...and likely will not be able to master it in this or many succeeding lifetimes, either. Right now, it's more my theory of who and how I'd ideally like to be and act.

 

Addictions and other maladaptive coping strategies are a psyche's way of protecting itself from real or perceived threat(s). And who am I to try to interfere with that process, or try to stop it for someone else?

 

It's more about just allowing them to choose their own experiences, whatever the experience might be. Not that I won't offer my own opinions, but I want to keep in mind that my views are only based on my own prejudices, preferences, needs and desires.

What I'd really like, is to be able to detach from THEIR outcomes and consequences and just be able to say, "Hey, you go for it...I'm NOT going to let it impact me...and good luck to you!" And then not feel all disappointed and sorry for my poor ass just cos they didn't listen to me (don't do what I want them to!)...who the heck am I, in the grand scheme of THEIR life purpose and lessons?

 

It's my absolute ideal of total non-judgment, total allowing and total acceptance of whatever the heck is going on around me. Instead of expecting, demanding or just plain wishing-like-hell that they will follow MY "advice" over their own urges and impulses, whether functional, dysfunctional, constructive or destructive. That's what I'd like to be able to give the people I love. In my current reality...good luck to them cos it ain't happening like that, not by a long shot!

 

EDIT: And also not saying that I would doom myself to living with a bunch of self-sabotaging, addicted, suicidal murderers. Wouldn't do that cos I love myself too much! (But they are welcome, in my ideal vision, to choose that for themselves.) And notwithstanding that I am also a self-sabotaging, addiction-tendencied, mostly dysfunctional freak...heck, that's what I love about me most.

[EllaDerSpin]

Out of curiosity: does that hold true even if the person is doing things that are patently self-destructive (substance abuse, self-sabotage, etc)?

 

I don't have a specific situation in mind, but it seems as though you would then be cheerleading that person into further self-harming behaviors in the name of unconditional love.

For me unconditional love means seeing the truth of a person as opposed to my perception/judgement of a person. Seeing the truth behind the ego or more likely the truth behind what my ego would see them as. It doesn't mean that that person could not hurt me because whatever would cause me pain is seperate from that love, but love in itself does not hurt. Real love in itself is always good.

[sailing]

First of all, Sedgwick, I've read some of your post and I'm genuinely interested to know what drives you to make them, and whether you derive any comfort from the many replies, such as seminoles84's above, that you receive. There is no hidden criticism, I'm just intrigued. Perhaps I should PM you, but I presume I'm not the only one wondering.

 

For example, it's obvious that you set yourself very high standards (as a girlfriend, professionally, privately, grammatically etc). You are also well-versed in psychiatry and tend to get impatient with layman responses. Clearly, you're fully aware that the all-or-nothing thinking is part of your disorder so, when you plunge to the depths of self-loathing, is it impossible for you to step back and observe it as such? Do you take in what people reply, or are your posts more akin to self-flagellation and any progress made away from the board, in therapy or contemplation?

 

Regardless, your posts and the replies will be of help to others. Me, for example. Some days are better than others, but I'm embarrassed to say it's been a year and I'm not over my break-up either. There is no pedestal involved in my case and I probably wasn't the best girlfriend I could be but, like you, I'm not sure I'll meet someone else, let alone fall in love. I don't say it out loud because to others it screams self-pity whereas to me it sounds like a pretty sober, realistic estimate of events. Of course, I don't want it to be.

 

After reading this thread, I wonder if perhaps some form of unconditional love is the way to get out of this deadlock. Much as I would like to be, I'm not indifferent. I have to admit I want him to love me, but reciprocal love is obviously no longer an option. Anger was good in the interim, but it's also that thwarted need too thinly veiled, and it consumes to much energy. What's left? Settling with the hurt, and possibly self-blame and jealousy, until it simply wears off?

 

Although unconditional love after being dumped does have ring of "doormat extraordinaire" about it, it does seem to be the only option that can contain all the conflicting emotions: I don't have to feel guilty for still having feelings for someone who doesn't "deserve" my love, but I'd have to admit that he's free to choose someone else's love. He's worthy of love, but not without fault. Most crucially though, when I concentrate on this stance, the feeling automatically extends to encompass myself - rather than his happiness rendering my unhappiness necessary.

 

Does this make any sense? Also, there is no way I can keep it up 100%, so is it self-delusion? How deal with the lingering doormat connotations?

[sedgwick]

First of all, Sedgwick, I've read some of your post and I'm genuinely interested to know what drives you to make them, and whether you derive any comfort from the many replies, such as seminoles84's above, that you receive.

 

I would imagine that what drives me to post is the same as what drives others -- a need for advice. I do indeed derive comfort from the replies, or I wouldn't post here.

[sailing]

I would imagine that what drives me to post is the same as what drives others -- a need for advice. I do indeed derive comfort from the replies, or I wouldn't post here.

 

That's reassuring. It's not always obvious (to me, at least), so I'm pleased to hear that.

[sedgwick]

I know I tend to beat myself up so mercilessly it may seem I'm not listening. I am, though. I'm not one who likes to use my diagnoses as excuses, but getting over breakups can be a real bitch if you're borderline. It really sucks when your intelligence is drowned by your emotions. Everything *feels* so real. It's like whatever you're feeling, whatever your emotions are telling you, is gospel truth, and rationale means nothing. I'm busting ass to dig myself out of this, but the setbacks really suck.

[gd26]

After reading this thread, I wonder if perhaps some form of unconditional love is the way to get out of this deadlock. Much as I would like to be, I'm not indifferent. I have to admit I want him to love me, but reciprocal love is obviously no longer an option. Anger was good in the interim, but it's also that thwarted need too thinly veiled, and it consumes to much energy. What's left? Settling with the hurt, and possibly self-blame and jealousy, until it simply wears off?

 

Although unconditional love after being dumped does have ring of "doormat extraordinaire" about it, it does seem to be the only option that can contain all the conflicting emotions: I don't have to feel guilty for still having feelings for someone who doesn't "deserve" my love, but I'd have to admit that he's free to choose someone else's love. He's worthy of love, but not without fault. Most crucially though, when I concentrate on this stance, the feeling automatically extends to encompass myself - rather than his happiness rendering my unhappiness necessary.

 

Does this make any sense? Also, there is no way I can keep it up 100%, so is it self-delusion? How deal with the lingering doormat connotations?

 

These words beautifully sum up the feelings and thoughts I was going through today.

[sedgwick]

Just wanted to let you guys know I'm getting "infraction" messages all over the place -- I got one for pointing out spam and asking the mods if it could be deleted, and one for using the word "sh*t" in one of my posts (not kidding -- has anyone else EVER received an infraction for this?!?) So I'm probably not long for these boards, and if I get banned, I thank you for all your help.

 

If I have offended anyone by doing what everyone else does (i.e., assuming the people using the boards are adults and using "adult" language, albeit modified with a silly asterisk), I do apologize.

[sid3]

Banning you? That's just silly.

[sedgwick]

It's all good, I'm okay. Tony says that if we use curse words with asterisks, we cause teenagers to go ask their parents what the missing letter is. So be careful with that!

[foxh1234]

Just wanted to let you guys know I'm getting "infraction" messages all over the place -- I got one for pointing out spam and asking the mods if it could be deleted, and one for using the word "sh*t" in one of my posts (not kidding -- has anyone else EVER received an infraction for this?!?) So I'm probably not long for these boards, and if I get banned, I thank you for all your help.

 

If I have offended anyone by doing what everyone else does (i.e., assuming the people using the boards are adults and using "adult" language, albeit modified with a silly asterisk), I do apologize.

 

That seems crazy Sedge, I swear all the time in my posts.

[sedgwick]

I dunno...I guess we're teaching teenagers words they don't already know. You guys might want to stop swearing, even with asterisks, so you don't get infractions too.

[Walking away]

I swear in my posts too...

 

Thanks for the heads up...

 

WA