Moral values vs. Promiscuity

[Jake Barnes]

You can keep your hippy dippy eastern philosophy, because everything you said was wrong.

 

Of course if someone has had many sexual partners they are more likely to cheat and of course if they cheated in the past they are more likely to do it again

 

And if we throw out cheating all together whats wrong with someone just wanting someone else who has a long history of sharing the same values? Maybe some people are just more comfortable being with people who are like themselves.

 

Why do we always have to be so open minded to point of personality suicide

[D-Jam]

I don't have a problem with promiscuity, provided they were honorable and honest about it.

 

So say a woman has slept with 30 guys by the time she's 28, if these guys were all men she tried dating and things didn't work out, or even men she thought were hot and just wanted to have sex with (while she was single and unattached) then it's fine in my book. I am more reluctant on women who lied, cheated, or lead men on.

 

It's the honesty and respect factors that weigh heavily on me.

 

When it comes to a woman's past, I'm more judgmental on how much her past made things a mess for her life now, as well as how this woman treated me since the day I met her.

 

I'm very judgmental on women who handed me some lame lying excuse or blew me off when I asked them out. I respect women who give me honesty, like "I'm flattered, but I'm sorry I'm not interested in you like that." If a girl suddenly vanishes on me when she told me to call her to make plans, or gives me some excuse about wanting to be single (when she finds a new BF quickly after), then I won't respect her.

 

Worse off is if she lied to me/blew me off to basically pursue failed relationships with horrible men...then they come back when they make a big mess of their lives and hope I'll take them in. Most of the time it's women who lied the first time, then spent years in bad relationships, got knocked up, and now come back, claiming how they always loved me. Um...no.

 

I know I sound hard and mean on women, but honesty and respect are things I value greatly, and if a woman can't respect me as an adult and be honest with me...even when she's not interested in me...then she only displays to me her real face.

 

How many people a person sleeps with isn't as much of a problem compared to how honest and respectful this person is with you and others, as well as how safe they were.

 

No unwanted pregnancies, no STDs, honest with people, respects me...we're all good.

[wittygirl09]

This is so weird but this forum has taught me SO MUCH about myself. I consider myself a social liberal (fiscally too but that is a story for another day lol.) My view on legal relationship/sexual issues was always "if they aren't hurting anybody, let them do it." So I am okay with the concept of group sex, anal sex, one night stands, heck even water sports, etc. Pedophiles and rapists, not so much. And I considered this view to be very open minded. I thought being open-minded was synonymous with not being judgmental so I would always claim to NOT be a judgmental person.

 

However I recently started dating someone that engaged in two threesomes in their past. Do I feel that they had a right to? Absolutely, I hope no law ever prevents anyone from being able to engage in that if that is their cup of tea. It is THEIR LIFE and THEIR BODY. However, I PERSONALLY view threesomes as immoral. I would never stop anyone from having one or tell someone they are going to hell because of one. I would not stop being friends with someone because they engaged in one. I value freedom and having the right to make your own personal choices. I would not find this person INFERIOR to me. But that being said, because I BY CHOICE would never feel comfortable being in a threesome due to moral reasons ESPECIALLY if I was in a committed relationship, is it really unfair for me to JUDGE someone for having done one in their past while they were in a committed relationship? Especially if it is something they could potentially see them self doing again? Yes, I actually do and I'll tell you why.

 

I don't think my boyfriend is a bad person because of it. He didn't hurt anyone. He isn't forcing me to have one against my will. But does his view on threesomes and my view on threesomes clash? Yes, they do. Does monogamy and my views on sexuality really shape what I look for in relationship? YES. Why is that? Because unlike with strangers and friends, I have SEX with people that I am in relationships with. (Not all of them lol, but that's besides the point.) If their view on sexuality is deemed immoral in my eyes or it clashes with my views and we are having sex, IT DOES AFFECT ME.

 

So all those people who constantly say "past is past, stop being so judgmental" need to stop pointing fingers at people who point fingers to people who they may potentially share their life, time, body with. You are essentially doing unto us as what we are doing unto others. Here's why it is deemed moreso justifiable for us than it is with you: you're not dating me, however I am dating the guy whose past I feel MAY affect me directly. My views do not affect you directly.

 

I had a lot more to say but this will suffice for the time being.

[wittygirl09]

And just for the record, I am currently in college. I have never had a one night stand, never cheated on a boyfriend, never had a friend with benefits, never had sex or even hooked up with anyone outside of dating/relationship, never engaged in group sex. Have I been offered all of the above and more? Absolutely. I can't even begin to count the times I have been approached at a bar/club/party where a guy is looking for a one nighter, classmates or peers who have told me they wanted to hook up without the drama that comes with relationships, times where guys have tried to make a move when we weren't dating, times where couples, friends, boyfriends have asked about me joining in on a threesome. Guess what? I never did it. Not even the times where the guys were super hot, or no one would find out or it was tempting. It just goes against my personal morals and values.

 

And for people who think that only "religious nuts" have this view on sexuality, wakeup call: I am agnostic/atheist. I don't even believe in God, an afterlife or hell. If I was able to overcome temptation and have self respect/control in all these situations, is it really that wrong that I admire and find people who have had similar past dating patterns as attractive? It's just a personal preference. Having two guys kiss me all over my body sounds pretty hot but I'll let that remain a fantasy even when I am approached by two frat guys from across the hall. I value the notion of sex too much to do it with anyone that isn't a boyfriend that I care about and respect a lot.

 

If a guy didn't want to date me because he was a virgin and I was not and he only found other girls who were virgins attractive, it would hurt but I would respect and understand his decision. I feel it is okay to expect something in a relationship if you have that quality or view yourself.

[AAlike]

Every person has a different bar. It's up to them.

 

Eleven partners is not the national average.

 

of course it's up to them. But I'm asking you specifically. I'm certainly not telling you that your bar is wrong, obviously it's completely your prerogative what you deem acceptable in a partner - but the statements that you make seem to imply that if someone has a certain number then they automatically have a certain viewpoint on sex.

 

i'm sure that I could find an article that uses a different number as the average - who cares - pick any number that's not an obvious statistical outlier but is more than yours.

[Trialbyfire]

of course it's up to them. But I'm asking you specifically. I'm certainly not telling you that your bar is wrong, obviously it's completely your prerogative what you deem acceptable in a partner - but the statements that you make seem to imply that if someone has a certain number then they automatically have a certain viewpoint on sex.

 

i'm sure that I could find an article that uses a different number as the average - who cares - pick any number that's not an obvious statistical outlier but is more than yours.

Could you show me where my statements within this thread indicate a certain number? Since you've openly admitted to being societally biased towards someone with 150 past sexual partners, I don't think my bar is relevant, in that you agree that everyone has a bar. I'm not challenging your right to believe what you want but I stand firm with my personal preferences and moral value judgements for my partners.

 

I also agree with Jake, that not everyone must accept what someone else believes, in order to give them a personal feel good about themselves.

[rproctor]

Do you not think that its immoral to pass judgment on someone based on things you know little to nothing about? If someone said, I slept with 20 people, thats all you know. How can you then say, thats immoral? All you know, is that person slept with 20 people. You have no idea how they came about it, what circumstances they were under, or anything. In my opinion, and probably mine alone, that would seem immoral! Judging and ridiculing someone based on something that you know nothing about would, again in my opinion, seems immoral (and ignorant).

 

Everyone here is entitled to thier own opinion, but most probably everyone here in this thread has dealt with this situation at one point or another, and if you have not then you probably will at some time in your life. If you are here, and you are saying its against your values, and you have dealt with this situation, then you really should be keeping this to yourself because other people here are trying to overcome, what obviously you have failed to do.

 

This whole thing, its not about your morals, or your values (in most cases). What its really about, is your innabition to overcome your own personal immaturities. Again, no one has the privlidge here of deemings someones sexual lifestyle as right or wrong. To say to someone, I think you are immoral for sleeping with 1 more partner than I see acceptable, is completely and outrageously ignorant and narrow.

 

And by the way, im not a hippi, im just not a sexist with a short minded attituded.

[rproctor]

And, what about if you were married to someone for 30 years and you never discussed numbers? That person was the greatest partner of your life, truly someone you loved. One day, 30 years into the marriage, you talk numbers and you find out its above your "bar"? Would you think they were wrong and immoral? Would you leave them? I mean, get real here...

[Trialbyfire]

And, what about if you were married to someone for 30 years and you never discussed numbers? That person was the greatest partner of your life, truly someone you loved. One day, 30 years into the marriage, you talk numbers and you find out its above your "bar"? Would you think they were wrong and immoral? Would you leave them? I mean, get real here...

If numbers are important to people, they will ask. If the other party refuses to answer, many will walk. I would.

[rproctor]

If numbers are important to people, they will ask. If the other party refuses to answer, many will walk. I would.

 

And what if they lied? Or dulled it down? What if, only for example, your "bar" is 20. They say they slept with 15, but really it was 21. 30 years later, you find out. I dont think, again my opinion, the lie of a difference of 6 people would be enough to ruin that relationship of 30 years.

 

Or, what if they lied, and you never found out. it would never, ever matter. Never! You would live your whole life in contempt without ever thinking about it. And, it was with a person if you had known you would have deemed immoral.

 

See what im getting out, what your judging these people on is nonsense.

[Trialbyfire]

And what if they lied? Or dulled it down? What if, only for example, your "bar" is 20. They say they slept with 15, but really it was 21. 30 years later, you find out. I dont think, again my opinion, the lie of a difference of 6 people would be enough to ruin that relationship of 30 years.

 

Or, what if they lied, and you never found out. it would never, ever matter. Never! You would live your whole life in contempt without ever thinking about it. And, it was with a person if you had known you would have deemed immoral.

 

See what im getting out, what your judging these people on in nonsense.

What if someone went to jail for manslaughter but didn't tell you about it until 30 years later? Wouldn't you be questioning their sense of morality or would you say, "there, there, I understand why you lied to me, since you were aware I would consider it a heinous crime".

[rproctor]

What if someone went to jail for manslaughter but didn't tell you about it until 30 years later? Wouldn't you be questioning their sense of morality or would you say, "there, there, I understand why you lied to me, since you were aware I would consider it a heinous crime".

 

Whoa whoa, your getting a bit off subject here. Manslaughter and promiscuous sex is two completely different things, completely different.

 

Sex is something enjoyable, and as long as its with CONSENTING people, who are you to deem rather its right or wrong? If they had sex with 20 children, then yea its immoral and definitely should not be looked over. If they raped 20 people its the same thing, immoral because it is wrong by law and justice.

 

But, experiencing healthy sexual relationships with people is definitely not something to be deemed wrong: that feeling and thinking you have towards it is, and sorry to say it, purely immaturity on your part! Not some immoral or bad heinous crime.

[AAlike]

Could you show me where my statements within this thread indicate a certain number? Since you've openly admitted to being societally biased towards someone with 150 past sexual partners, I don't think my bar is relevant, in that you agree that everyone has a bar. I'm not challenging your right to believe what you want but I stand firm with my personal preferences and moral value judgements for my partners.

 

I didn't ask you what your bar was - your preferences are completely irrelevant. I asked you how you would view someone with 11 (or whatever you want to use for an average) sexual partners.

 

I ask you for this reason: on a fair amount of these threads in which a person is emotionally struggling with their SO's certain number of partners or unconventional sexual incident or whatever, you tend to offer up the line "I wouldn't date anyone that treats sex as an itch to scratch." Although I realize that this line is about your preferences, which I am not questioning, you would only use this line if you were implying that you believe the SO's in question treat sex in this very manner, otherwise why would you mention that? There is an enormous difference between having preferences and making assumptions about people that fall outside of those preferences. I am not challenging your preferences (nor would I ever), I am challenging your assumptions.

[AAlike]

What if someone went to jail for manslaughter but didn't tell you about it until 30 years later? Wouldn't you be questioning their sense of morality or would you say, "there, there, I understand why you lied to me, since you were aware I would consider it a heinous crime".

 

wow, i can't say that I'm surprised at this analogy. repress much?

[Jake Barnes]

I'm going to be a hypocrite here, because I'm a weak man and I've done a lot of bad things, but my actions rarely live up to what I really believe deep down to be the truth

 

I think our society has much to casual and attitude toward sex. Its the most powerful force within us, the force which allows us to give life and its the only thing in the world that has that power. It is actually the most precious thing we can give to someone else, because nature has dictated that it is our way of saying I choose to bring new life with you. I'm not saying that everytime you have sex that may be your intention, but if left simply to nature in its unimpeded form that is exactly what it is. There is no gift expensive enough in the world that is so intimate.

 

That may seem very archaic in our modern society that treats sex so liberally and celebrates promiscuity, but that is because we've actually perverted sexuality into something else. Into just having a good time. Thats why we have to go outside of nature and use things like condoms and birth control, because we know if we left it up to nature we could be in trouble.

 

With that being said Im off to down a few pints at the strip club

[AAlike]

I'm going to be a hypocrite here, because I'm a weak man and I've done a lot of bad things, but my actions rarely live up to what I really believe deep down to be the truth

 

I think our society has much to casual and attitude toward sex. Its the most powerful force within us, the force which allows us to give life and its the only thing in the world that has that power. It is actually the most precious thing we can give to someone else, because nature has dictated that it is our way of saying I choose to bring new life with you. I'm not saying that everytime you have sex that may be your intention, but if left simply to nature in its unimpeded form that is exactly what it is. There is no gift expensive enough in the world that is so intimate.

 

That may seem very archaic in our modern society that treats sex so liberally and celebrates promiscuity, but that is because we've actually perverted sexuality into something else. Into just having a good time. Thats why we have to go outside of nature and use things like condoms and birth control, because we know if we left it up to nature we could be in trouble.

 

With that being said Im off to down a few pints at the strip club

 

Fantastic post Jake (especially the last sentence)...however, I think that it actually proves one of my points somewhat:

 

You say "I've done a lot of bad things, but my actions rarely live up to what I really believe deep down to be the truth" - so you're saying that YOUR PAST ACTIONS ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF THE VIEW THAT YOU NOW HARBOR AND KNOW TO BE TRUE REGARDING SEX.

 

thanks, I'm glad that we agree on that.

 

as far as the condoms and birth control thing - well, I see your point to a degree. but honestly, I think if those things were not available there'd just be a lot more oral and jerking each other off. I mean, if you're going to hash it out on a "what nature intended" level...we feel sexually aroused just as often if not more often than we feel hungry - does that mean that we're supposed to make babies as much as we eat?

 

"There is no gift expensive enough in the world that is so intimate" - honestly, Jake, I think that we all eventually arrive at that conclusion and are all better off once we have, and how we get there is really immaterial, so long as we make it.

[rproctor]

I'm going to be a hypocrite here, because I'm a weak man and I've done a lot of bad things, but my actions rarely live up to what I really believe deep down to be the truth

 

I think our society has much to casual and attitude toward sex. Its the most powerful force within us, the force which allows us to give life and its the only thing in the world that has that power. It is actually the most precious thing we can give to someone else, because nature has dictated that it is our way of saying I choose to bring new life with you. I'm not saying that everytime you have sex that may be your intention, but if left simply to nature in its unimpeded form that is exactly what it is. There is no gift expensive enough in the world that is so intimate.

 

That may seem very archaic in our modern society that treats sex so liberally and celebrates promiscuity, but that is because we've actually perverted sexuality into something else. Into just having a good time. Thats why we have to go outside of nature and use things like condoms and birth control, because we know if we left it up to nature we could be in trouble.

 

With that being said Im off to down a few pints at the strip club

 

If left up to nature, we would be doing the deed all day with as many people as possible, running about and beating women over the head with sticks. Nature doesnt make us choose a partner and stick with them, society does that.

 

The reason men feel so devastated about a womens promiscuity is a deep seeded fear of being killed by her other partners. Intense right? Back in the day, if a woman was sleeping with a tribe and a male from another tribe were to even try to approach her, he would probably been killed. So when you find out that your woman was with 50 other guys, your not intentionally thinking wow will they kill me, but your wondering abou them.

 

Like what I said earlier, if the women slept with 50 people, but never told you, and you never met any of the partners, it would never matter. Because today, in this day, we dont own women and keep them as objects to control, and usually (aside from the crazy exes ) when a partner decides to end it with that person it doesnt seep into problems with the next relationship.

 

If a women slept with 50 people, it does not change her physically, her vagina does not become loose, she does not grow lumps, or anything like that (aside from std's). Just like a man, his penis does not fall off after so many women, or anything like that.

 

And, generally women are fearful of a mans promiscuity because if they become pregnant, they need the man, and not have him off seeding other women while she bares the child.

[AAlike]

What if a guy has had eleven partners, but half of them were one time stripper/hooker type deals and it only happened because he came into more money than he was used to and the girls were hot curvy latin slutty girls that he didn't think he could pull without cash?

 

is this semi-autobiographical yo?

[Trialbyfire]

Whoa whoa, your getting a bit off subject here. Manslaughter and promiscuous sex is two completely different things, completely different.

 

Sex is something enjoyable, and as long as its with CONSENTING people, who are you to deem rather its right or wrong? If they had sex with 20 children, then yea its immoral and definitely should not be looked over. If they raped 20 people its the same thing, immoral because it is wrong by law and justice.

 

But, experiencing healthy sexual relationships with people is definitely not something to be deemed wrong: that feeling and thinking you have towards it is, and sorry to say it, purely immaturity on your part! Not some immoral or bad heinous crime.

 

 

I didn't ask you what your bar was - your preferences are completely irrelevant. I asked you how you would view someone with 11 (or whatever you want to use for an average) sexual partners.

 

I ask you for this reason: on a fair amount of these threads in which a person is emotionally struggling with their SO's certain number of partners or unconventional sexual incident or whatever, you tend to offer up the line "I wouldn't date anyone that treats sex as an itch to scratch." Although I realize that this line is about your preferences, which I am not questioning, you would only use this line if you were implying that you believe the SO's in question treat sex in this very manner, otherwise why would you mention that? There is an enormous difference between having preferences and making assumptions about people that fall outside of those preferences. I am not challenging your preferences (nor would I ever), I am challenging your assumptions.

For both of you, listen up. I will continue giving advice and opinion in the way I deem to be the best type of advice/opinions I can give. If you have differing advice/opinions, fine, give it. You may challenge my advice and I can challenge yours. Keep that in mind.

 

Regardless, I won't change my opinion or advice. This is what I believe in. If the OP chooses to disregard it, that's the OP's decision, not yours. If you noticed, the OP has been pushing the big white promiscuous elephant uphill for six months. To me this means he's been in serious conflict within himself. Y'all keep counseling him to keep pushing that white elephant and see how long it takes to break him.

[Tony]

Please kindly restore this thread to productive civility by stating your opinions in a non-combative, non-inflammatory, non-confrontational manner. Respect the opinions of others you may disagree with. If someone puts up a response that is so extreme as to be irresponsible or insulting, REPORT IT TO MODERATORS but do not legitimize it by responding to it.

 

Let's please get back on topic and stop arguing unless you can do it in a civil, intellectual way that promotes healthy debate without getting down and dirty.

 

Many thanks!

[cutegirl]

For me it has nothing to do with morals, I am not jealous of a man's past because of my "high morals" because my morals aren't that high, they are pretty damn loose.

 

I am NOT in a relationship right now but when I was it was all about the following.

 

It was all about being jealous of the women in the past, jealous that he was with THEM and not ME, jealous and bitter because the guy had more fun than me while I missed out (so it's mainly feeling sorry for myself. And then it's the constant.

 

It was the constant wondering of what the other biatches in his past looked like, what they looked like naked, if they were hotter than me, more successful than me, better in bed, I even wondered what they did in bed explicitly, like the positions and what the women sounded like, what moves they made.

 

And then there was fear of being compared to the other woman, fear of not being the BEST (I always have to be the best).

 

And then wondering if the other person had SO MANY sexual partners then how could I ever compare to those partners? Which one of the partners were better than me, which one was prettier? Which one was better in bed? And then I wanted to know their names... And what the other women looked like.

And I would always have visions of them together etc.

 

I don't feel it's MORALLY wrong for a person to be promiscuous, I think it's actually GREAT! I would probably want to BE more promiscuous if I wasn't so anti social. I haven't had a lot of sex partners and it has nothing to do with morals but more because of personal problems. In a way I would be jealous of my partner having had "more fun" than me, I would be bitter and envious and I would probably hold it against them and "torture" them with it by constantly asking questions and bringing it up etc.

[CommitmentPhobe]

It was the constant wondering of what the other biatches in his past looked like, what they looked like naked, if they were hotter than me, more successful than me, better in bed, I even wondered what they did in bed explicitly, like the positions and what the women sounded like, what moves they made.

 

I really think you need to work on your esteem cutegirl, you are very very down on yourself.

[AAlike]

wow cutegirl - well, at least you're honest to yourself!

 

it's weird - I am a competitive bastard...i'll make anything into a game of one-upsmanship...but yet I've never applied that to sex, especially sex within a relationship.

[AAlike]

TBF, I think what some of the folks on this thread take umberage with is the assumptions you make, and I can't say I blame them. You say that people who have had many past sexual partners will cheat. That's insulting to anyone who has chosen to enjoy casual sex when they're not in a committed relationship. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. One involves behavior when NOT in a relationship which has nothing to do with integrity, and the other involves integrity - how they behave after they've made a promise of monogomy to someone.

 

give this lady a prize.

[AAlike]

For both of you, listen up. I will continue giving advice and opinion in the way I deem to be the best type of advice/opinions I can give. If you have differing advice/opinions, fine, give it. You may challenge my advice and I can challenge yours. Keep that in mind.

 

I agree with that 100%, no hard feelings of course. I think that you're a great writer and I certainly respect your opinions whether or not I agree with them. I mean, it's a discussion forum, to some extent challenging opinions is the point, no?

 

Regardless, I won't change my opinion or advice. This is what I believe in. If the OP chooses to disregard it, that's the OP's decision, not yours. If you noticed, the OP has been pushing the big white promiscuous elephant uphill for six months. To me this means he's been in serious conflict within himself. Y'all keep counseling him to keep pushing that white elephant and see how long it takes to break him.

 

I agree with this, actually...if OP believes that he has really made no progress, regardless of why he hasn't, then he probably should bail at this point.