Trouble being affectionate due to past 'ghosts'

[lisaelise]

This is a long ongoing problem, and I am at a loss on what to do. My husband is also unsure on how to move ahead. The problem started while we were dating. My husband had a 'friend', a married woman who he was intimately close to, moreso than I was aware of in the beginning. This woman was 'his first crush' , an old high school girlfriend that he had looked up and became friends with later in life. Over time while dating him, I became aware that the relationship was not a normal friendship, it involved a lot of physical affection, hugging, kissing, stroking etc, and the word 'love' was used between them. They were quite close, and called themselves best friends, and talked intimiately. I believed the physical only went as far as affection. My husband (boyfriend at the time) told me he loved the woman, as a friend, and she clearly stated she loved him, and that they were 'soulmates'. He assured me nothing physical had ever occured between them, and he felt towards her as if she was a sister.

After about 11 months of albeit quite uncomfortable dating, I was told by someone else, that they had indeed been physically intimate as well. Not knowing if this had occurred while he and I were dating, or beforehand, I confronted him. He blew up (normal for him at the time) and admitted that it was true, however, it had happened some months before he and I met. Now, some things came out at this time, one is that she had a child some months after their encounter, and there was some suspicion the child was his. He assured me that this was 'cleared up' and the child was her husband's, and not his.

At this timeframe in the relationship, it had gotten to the point where he was discussing marriage, so it was quite serious and not a casual dating situation. These revelations made me even more uncomfortable - while it had happened before he and I met, I felt he misrepresented his relationship with this woman to me, and she was in fact, not someone he felt 'as if she was a sister', but in reality someone who had been his lover and he still felt very close to. And, the possibility of him having a child with the woman (he was not clear at all on how the father was determined, no DNA testing was done) for me made him unsuitable as a boyfriend or potential husband due to my family/culture. He was quite aware of this aspect, and still chose not to tell me about the situation.

All of the above was within the first year of dating. Somehow, we 'made up' and got married. Fast forward 5 years, and things are still not what they should be, and more revalations have occured. One major one is that several months ago, he told me that the truth is, the encounter that occurred between him and his friend before he and I met was not consentual! She drugged and raped him! But after the rape, he continued to be best friends with the woman, being phyically affectionate and emotionally close. I'm at a loss, I wish I could understand any of this, but I can't.

As far as I can tell, my husband had an emotional love affair with physical affection with another woman the whole time we were dating. Which brings the question - why did I marry him? He ended the other relationship (not for me, because the woman in question became extremely jealous and possessive of him) and he assured me he was truly in love with me.

Now at this point, I am finding it very difficult to find a way to understand and get past the things that happened before, and more importantly because of my husband and his friend's close physical affection in the past, I have always felt 'turned off' from being affectionate with him - if I try to be affectionate, I'm cursed with my mind presenting me with a picture of him and his friend being affectionate in the same way in front of me. I just don't know what to do - I truly care for him and would never consider giving up on the marriage, however I long for a normal relationship where I would feel loved, cherished, like being affectionate and happy, without these lingering 'ghosts'.

Could anyone advise on how we can move ahead?

[angryyoungman70]

MC. Hash it all out in front of a professional. Try to be as honest and as open as you can about how you are feeling, and make sure that your husband understands how you feel.

 

You may feel as though your trust has been betrayed, however it sounds like you truly value your marriage, in which case you should act sooner rather than later. Don't let your issues fester any longer.

 

Good luck.

[luvstarved]

Absolutely agree with angryyoungman. Be sure to find a counselor who truly understands your need to sort this out. Some will try to say, oh the past is the past, move on...but I understand your need to understand how the past lack of full disclosure was relevant then...and now.

 

I have similar situation with my H not with another person but in understanding some past behavior of his.

 

It is good that he has broken contact with her, but after all for some period of time, he did mislead you about his R with her. I can somewhat understand that too, if he had no intention of being physical with her and wanted to protect you from irrelevant details. But it was still wrong, I am not saying otherwise - just that I know how people can do the wrong thing with the right intentions sometimes.

 

I think you need to be free to express your feelings about this as much as you need to and that he owes it to you to listen and answer you honestly and respectfully. Hopefully, with that, you will clear up all misunderstandings and fears and move on. You don't want to be talking about this stuff still in 10 years...I think you need some reassurance that you can fully trust him from now on...and I commend you for wanting to do the work to improve your marriage...

[smartgirl]

I obviously cannot say for sure, but I get a strong feeling that your H did have strong, though very conflicted feelings for this woman. Knowing on some level that there was something "not right" about this relationship he chose not to pursue it as his sole relationship, but rather to try and pursue another relationship that was more of the kind of relationship he wanted.

 

That said, it seems he continued to remain drawn to this woman, though I think even he knows it was not for healthy, rational reasons. This was likely a relationship where he did not feel a full partner and was not in full control of himself. This does happen for a variety of complicated reasons, regardless of who the dominant individual is.

 

Bottom line is---I think he was drawn into this other relationship but wanted out. I think he wanted you and he struggled to break free of this other woman so he could be with you. I think he realized that he may have been addicted to her, but he could find happiness with you.

 

Treat that relationship as though you found out he used to have a drug problem. It wasn't pretty, but he fought to get free and he did and he is with you where he wants to be. He fought to be with you so feel good about that. Though always keep in mind -- and he should definitely get counselling -- that he may have tendencies toward being manipulated by strong personalities.

[lisaelise]

Thank you all for your insight, in reading your responses I realize now I have to do something about this problem right now. It has not improved much in 5 years, and you're all right, I certainly do not want to having this hanging over my head years from now.

Smartgirl, that's an interesting way to look at it, one I never thought of before. and I do think you're right, perhaps it was like an addiction for him. She provided a lot of attention and affection which I believe he enjoyed. And the friendship had been going on for 6 years prior to he and I meeting, during which time he never had any serious involvements. Before this woman's reappearance, it seemed he had serious involvements, and was prepared to get married once before (though the woman he proposed to declined the offer).

Some things puzzle me - how and why could he continue with the relationship, after the drugging and rape? Maybe the addiction concept would explain this?

That this happened worries me greatly - what if someone like this woman came along again? She didn't treat him very well, she refered to him as her 'lost puppy' and put him down often, joked that he was 'dumb' or other such remarks. He allowed all of this to continue and never said anything to indicate he was unhappy with her verbal abuse, and on top of this he doted on her and treated her with love and respect.

I do understand the idea he likely was fighting to be with me, and leave his addiction - but therin lies another problem. I don't want a man who had to fight in this way to be with me. It did feel that way, that it was a struggle for him to commit to me. I stood by him and was accepting of his friend, and attempted to befriend her. But the whole time for me was an internal struggle - can I do this? And do I want to? It basically comes down to I feel like I 'won', however I did not want to compete to 'win' something, nor do I find any value in something that I had to 'compete' to attain.

So a lot of the problem really is the the me-me-me part, the part that has nothing to do with him, or anything he's done, just about me and what I want, I fear I want things he cannot provide.

If I was to be married, I wanted a man to come to me, wholeheartedly and honestly, and make an offer. Now I can't seem to rid myself of wanting all the things I never had or experienced. We are not young anymore, however we met when young (23 and 26) and this involvement was both of our first serious and long term involvement. So I can see how many missteps and mistakes can be made, and we certainly have learned a lot. In a way, I suppose we have already been through some of the worst things you can anticipate in a marriage, and are both still here. However with such intense worries for the future, it makes daily life awkward at times.

And I truly still do want the things I never had, the excitement, romance, the 'puppy love' phase. Obviously that is not a reality for everyone. But I can't help but think, why me? Why did I not deserve nice things in my life? During the time when he and I may have been courting, the infatuation stage and the getting to know you state, he was heavily involved with the other woman, and we did not experience these things together. And I am left wanting for them.

Now, 5 years have passed since the woman has been gone. There is little I could complain about, he is a normal, good husband, he takes care of our family and me. We both work full time, and as well run a farm and an non-profit animal sactuary, so we are quite busy, and quite dependent on one another to successfully run our home and businesses together. Things run quite smoothly, and we have become good friends. The chemistry is certainly there and we share many interests. We are very busy all the time, as you can imagine, so have little 'alone' time, but makes the best of what moments we can steal away.

So if somehow, all of the above situation with the woman could be 'erased', our lives and marraige would seem just fine! Of course there are day to day problems and nothing is perfect, but those are all miniscule in comparision to this overhanging issue.

So there is is, the down and dirty truth. What we have now is fine. We're happy. Not perfect, but no one is. A normal marriage and normal life. But, deep down, I feel...was it worth the anguish, pain and drama to get here, to have a normal life and marriage? I worry the answer for me, is no, I worry that deep down I feel the experience of that first year and the subsequent two or three that there colored by that first year wasn't worth going through to have what I have now.

I will print out all of your replies and show this to him. I don't know where that might take us, but perhaps your insights may help us to talk more about this issue. I do know he will not seek counsel on any personal matters, he has stated before that he is strongly against this idea and refused to entertain the thought.

[carhill]

OP, you can't re-write history. The past is done.

 

It sounds to me like this past is a block for you and not for your H. If true, try IC to work on you and your perception of your M.

 

Also, I've heard "busy" a number of times here. Try less busy and more "alone" time. Remember, everything you are and everything you do is a choice. No person or entity makes you do anything. Talk with an IC about that dynamic.

 

FWIW, soulmates come in many forms. Sometimes, as is human, we confuse one form with another. I've made this mistake. Perhaps your H did as well. It's OK, he's human

 

Has your H provided reasons for his aversion to counseling? If not, why not? I think it is reasonable to communicate a motive/rationale for not meeting a reasonable request, don't you?

[quankanne]

I hear you loud and clear, lisa – with us, it was the spector of my husband's previous, failed marriages. I was the whipping boy for all the things they did, but he couldn't see it. Worse, I think he honestly expected me to shxt-can him for someone "better" much in the way they had. And it was only an intense marriage encounter weekend that helped him truly focus on the fact that I wasn't them, that I viewed marriage in a whole different light. And it helped me to be more patient with him, because the pay-off would be huge.

 

when I'm in a funk about us, yeah, I'll admit that it's pretty damned crappy that THEY got those nice loving sweet little moments with him at the beginning, because he was too screwed up to open up to me. Frankly, it still hurts. But it's way outranked by the fact that I'm the one who is in a successful, pretty much happy marriage with him, not them.

 

you really don't shake those feelings of longing for those sweet moments with him, but you CAN cut them off at the knees by redirecting your thinking. Or even by telling him that you wish you two could have had that, as well. You'll never be able to re-do that period, but hopefully – with good counseling and good communication skills – you can look forward to something even better than what you believe to be missing.

[lisaelise]

Carhill,

I do not know what his aversion to counsel is, he would not say. Historically he has been quite verbally aggressive and closed-off, so I get a nervous knot in my stomach if I need to talk to him about something which I know he does not want to discuss, so I did not try to ask about it again.

The rape revealation left him feeling ill and shaken, so I doubt the issue is done for him, he seems deeply troubled by it, but is not able to discuss.

My perception of my marriage is puzzlement really. His concept of love is by saying 'I love you' to someone, that means the person will be nice to him. That is all the extent there is with love and him, simply that if he says he has that feeling for someone, they will be nice to him.

I tried to express that I felt telling someone you loved them meant that you feel kindly towards them and want happiness and good things for them, however I do not think he understand this concept.

I do know past is past and can't be changed...but I'm one of those people who need to understand. Mainly because I feel he is susceptible to the same, again.

I cannot try IC, as he would not agree to this idea either, and the thought of trying to bring it up to him frankly is quite daunting. I am fearful of even printing out this thread of messages to show him, as I worry he will either blow up that I 'went behind his back', or he will give me the silent treatment and ignore it completely which will be hurtful to me.

I do try to communicate positively - certainly I am not perfect with communication, but I can honestly say I have never yelled, screamed, called him names, put him down, said mean, hurtful or thoughtless things, threw an unreasonable fit, shirked my duties at home or work or accused him of anything with no reason. However, he regularly did all of the above, and though he has worked very hard to improve, those traits still appear time to time and make me quite nervous still in attempting to talk to him. I tend to be a soft spoken person, and the yelling and aggression scare me.

[lisaelise]

ps. Carhill,

That is an excellent idea, for more 'us' time together, we hardly do see or talk to each other most days. Our schedules are quite grueling in particular through the warm season, to prepare for winter. It is hard to take time out, mostly because the work we do after our day jobs is survival essential, there are some things that need to be complete and ready prior to winter, to ensure we will make it through with heat, water and access to roads and food. However I do see your point of the importance of the time we spend on just us, and I will try to make an effort to make that happen.

The soulmate idea...what irks me is he never saw me in that light and still does not see me that way. He also never felt we were that close, or that good of friends up until the past year. I had a few times tried before to develop an open and honest relationship with him, but was met with resistance.

[carhill]

I hope others will comment, but I see walls here.... as well as a somewhat skewed idea (H's) of what love is. We have a thread on empathy and love going on, and I think it would be good reading...

 

If you cannot "choose" to go to IC, this is, IMO, a serious marital issue. My wife an I have a lot of issues, but she chooses to do anything she wants. If that were IC, more power to her. We're in MC, so that's not an issue, but, if she desired it, I'd encourage it. If she desired to go out with her friends without me, I'd encourage that too. I don't "own" her, or her love. It must be given freely to be valuable. Does what I'm saying make sense?

 

Read my journals about my past messy situation with my "soulmate". There's a whole lot yet to be published, as it is generational (meaning long-lived). Nothing in life is as simple as we'd like it to be, but we only have one life here, yes?

[quankanne]

I agree with the need for counselling, esp. in this case – it's not about pointing fingers or saying who's "bad," but about getting the tools you need to improve your relationship. Because even a healthy relationship can benefit from tools of communication. Best of all, it helps put two people with two very different backgrounds and ideals on the same page.

 

and in your case, it sounds like it'd be beneficial. If you're afraid of his temper, that's not good ...

[carhill]

Here's the empathy and love thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t159223/

 

Best of all, it helps put two people with two very different backgrounds and ideals on the same page.

 

Excellent; this has been an instrumental benefit of MC for us, as we come from disparate familial backgrounds and perspectives...

[lisaelise]

Thank you all very much for the help and resources. I read the empathy thread. Could this be me? Him? Both of us? Is that why we have such troubles connecting? I know him to be a very self centered person, and it takes effort for him to think of others. I used to be quite empathatic in general, and particularly towards him because I cared for him. However over the years without realizing it, I have become like him in some ways, I am not that empathetic towards him any longer and feel rather matter of fact about the relationship and my life in general. I feel I have not changed towards others, just him. He has changed towards me, and others, to try to become more self-less. He does try, but you can tell it's an effort. I don't know if I try - sometimes thoughts come to mind where I feel empathy for him about something, but then thoughts about 'well, if you're nice to him he'll just turn on you and use it against you at some point'. He's the type of person where if you give an inch, he will take a mile. So I have to be careful.

The mention of IC or MC, for him, would devastate him, he would panic and 'turtle' and no one would hear from him for months. Any slight problem, or if I show any emotion at all about something, he immediately thinks I'm leaving him and becomes cold and distant. That and we do not have access to those types of services where we are located, we are in a remote location with few people in the region and far away from towns or cities, so a trip to a town is a big event, a long trek with preparations and planning, and is done once a month for supplies, and can only be done at certain times of the year. Which is why winter preparations and other farm work trump any relationship or other problems - we are truly dealing with survival needs. So I guess this message thread is my IC. Actually, you don't know what a weight off it has been to just write all of this down, it's been in my head for years. I feel so much better just getting it out!

Quankanne - have things gotten better over time with wanting the things you didn't have? I am still saddened by silly things like seeing someone's wedding pictures, or hearing about a relative's engagement story, or even seeing couples out who appear to be in a courting phase.

Another thing that worries me is for me this is a marriage based on 'as long as'...meaning it will last 'as long as' he desn't go back to drinking too much, keeps his temper in check, doesn't lie or sneak around again(that first year he was also secretly visting/talking to another ex-GF, when I found out about it he explained it was platonic. So it was not another affair, however to me that doesn't excuse the lying and going behind my back to see her and talk to her), doesn't scare or neglect the children, doesn't get involved in an EA or PA with someone else, etc etc, basically as long as he never does any of the things he did before. So I can't really feel comfortable - I feel like I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[quankanne]

honestly? Yes, those things haunt me ... sometimes ... but you've got to put it into perspective. What helps is that our relationship has outlasted his first two marriages about 10 times over ... I'm the one who discovered the gold hidden among the ruins they left behind, so to speak. He's not romantic by any stretch of the imagination, but he's got his really sweet moments, and that banishes those "why can't *I* be the special girl" thoughts.

 

I can't really feel comfortable - I feel like I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

you describe the early days of our marriage, before the ME weekend where things were laid on the line and we both had our eyes opened. I think MC would benefit y'all greatly, but I know it's hard convincing someone that it's a good thing when they're of the mindset that they're going to get the blame ...

 

don't give up hope, but just be the loving example to him. At some point, he's going to realize that YOU are what makes his life works as well as it does, because of the love you share, and he will respond ...

[lisaelise]

Well, an update on my situation, and a strange turn of events. I didn't print out the message thread and show it to him, but I did try asking him some questions about the situation as it was, things like 'Do you feel maybe that relationship (meaning the relationship with the other woman) was like an addiction, that you needed time to recover from? Could that be why our relationship had been so strained for the first few years?'

Some how, in this conversation, after 5 years of no progress, it all came out.

He was not in love with the woman. She mentally and physically abused him for years. Most of the physical abuse was uninvited touching and fondling, but once she drugged and raped him. Mentally she belittled him, made him feel that unless he went along with her wishes, no one would associate with him, gave him the feeling that she knew him best, controlled his social life, romantic life, and basically made him to feel that he was incapable of doing anything without her approval. There were others as well, this whole friend group that were all under her control to some extent and suffered the same treatment. He says he felt brainwashed. It all started about mid-way in their friendship, he said she did always seem strange, but about mid-way he suffered some stressful problems, and that is when she started her controlling behaviour with him, and started collecting others as well. Apparently her idea was to form a commune one day.

What the heck is going on? We both read some things about abuse, and abuse recovery, and he said it's definite that was what he was involved in, all the signs, the stages people go through, he states that is exactly what he has been feeling for years and what he went through with this woman, and without a name to give the problem to help voice or describe it, he was closed off and confused for all this time.

Thoughts on this anyone? Can this be real? What is going on?

[Desperado620]

It doesn't seem like it could be real, but it can. If you don't know someone who has been a victim of violence/abuse by a partner, it's hard to believe that somebody could just put up with this, or allow someone to run over them roughshod in such a way. My younger sister (and later, her son) was abused by her first husband. It started small, with him being jealous of the time she spent with her friends while they were dating, but the more serious their relationship got, the worse he treated her and the more physical the abuse became. While she was 7 months pregnant with his child her threw her headfirst into a car door, so hard it left a dent in the car! We all told her to leave and wondered why in the hell she stayed with him! She didn't leave until he broke their son's leg. That's been almost 10 years ago now, and she is still in counciling to resolve her issues.

 

To me, this situation sounds like it's a little beyond the forum's range. We will all be here to lend an ear and help support you, but if your husband was truly a victim of such abuse in the past he will likely need counciling of some sort before all his issues can be resolved. Although male victim rape is much more rare than female victim rape, it is a rape nonetheless. Maybe you should put him in touch with a rape victim support group or therapist?

 

My H is the same way about being confronted with something, he mostly blows up and I have to wait for the storm to pass to discuss it with him rationally. In this case, I think the storm would be worth it, let him know you do this out of love and a deisre for you both to be healed and whole in your marriage. Luvstarved was right to commend you, this is a tough problem, kudos to you for wanting and trying to work through this.

 

Good luck!