Empathy as a prerequisite for love

Early-ish in our relationship, my ex admitted that he couldn't empathize with people. At the time, I remember being a little taken aback by that, but I rationalized it with "well, he's aware of it at least!"

He wasn't lying, that's for sure. There were lots of instances throughout our relationship where he just didn't see, understand, or care what was happening with other people. It bothered me, but again I justified it somehow.

Yesterday, I started thinking: a person who can't empathize with others probably can't ever truly love someone else.

It was a rather obvious "duh" moment for me: he probably didn't love me after all. How could he? He couldn't empathize with me. So he IS broken. He could cheat because he couldn't place himself in my shoes to understand the devastation he was causing (which is flabbergasting considering he was cheated on so he has a direct experience of what he put me through). He has learned nothing from his failed marriage because he couldn't ever see the world from his wife's perspective (empathy), to see what HE had done to contribute to its demise. He could leap directly into another next relationship after me, because he doesn't care about the pain he will eventually cause the hooch due to his effed-up-ness.

I wish I had connected the lack of empathy to an inability to love much much sooner. How did I think I would be a shining exception to his general disdain of, and lack of concern for, humanity?

(I know the answer, actually: he does love his daughter. And that threw me off and made me think he was capable of loving me.)

i don't know if this is the same thing but i will say i think i dated someone a bit similar.

He could only try to understand how i felt after he did something wrong or inconsiderate with me, (things absolutely anyone would know are not good to do in a relationship...too many examples to get started) he would spend days trying to figure out what he did to cause me to break up with him and once i gave him some leads he could see it and he would apologize but very soon it would go back to this cold, distant feeling when anything sensitive arrose.

He also once stated he had no interest or tolerence for anything outside his own interests. Do i think that spilled over into other people's feelings? I know so. So sad he was so selfish. I think it's a behavioral disfunction and really kind of creepy.

Once i told him my best friend's mom had breast cancer and he immediatley snapped at me saying "don't tell me that ****, i don't want to hear that" all because it was the type of information that could possibly make him sad or worried.

How screwed up. Imagine having kids with these guys? Poor things. They would be loved, but they'd have horrible role models.

I was hung up over him forever because he's talented and influential and had a new girl pretty soon afterwards even though he was still obsessed and in love with me. I was really just attached to someone loving me so much and seeing who i was and being inspired by that. I have since met several other men who can see that too, who aren't crazy.

Hold on to that notion. You don't need that at all. You're too good.

Sunshine, my ex was the same way! She never could put herself in my shoes and understand how her words or actions affected me. Her reaction to me getting upset with something she said or something she did was to say I was too sensitive, or I was being a pussy, and needed to grow some balls!!!

Sunshine, my ex was the same way! She never could put herself in my shoes and understand how her words or actions affected me. Her reaction to me getting upset with something she said or something she did was to say I was too sensitive, or I was being a pussy, and needed to grow some balls!!!

My ex as well. She wanted to know what I was feeling but If I had something bad to say about her and how she treated me it was either my fault, I was crazy or I was too sensitive. No wonder I shut up. No empathy at all is a soulless person. Sad to say but I feel sorry for them.

My ex had empathy, but for about the last year, she no longer had empathy towards ME.

A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.

A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.

Yeah, I hardly know where to start with the stories. My ex shares a lot of the traits of a schizoid. He's emotionally unavailable. He's a "clam" conversationally. He doesn't know himself, at all, and half the time couldn't, or wouldn't, name whatever feelings he was experiencing. He admitted that he doesn't experience very high highs or very low lows. When I asked if that was just how he was or if he was suppressing his feelings, he said "probably a bit of both." His affect was fairly flat and his facial expressions controlled. Everything emotional was intellectualized, including his divorce. I always suspected he had never dealt with his feelings of loss in the marriage, but his lack of empathy preceded the divorce, for sure. Arguably that was the reason his wife cheated on him with an emotionally present guy, whom she recently married.

Part of me just feels sad for him that he lacks soul, vibrancy, vitality of life. He might argue with that, but I think he has gotten good at mirroring a lot of socially expected behaviors. AND I think he's just not a deep person. I think I am grieving, in part, my inability to draw him out or help him connect back to his feelings. From what I've read, though, someone like my ex will tend to run from genuine love. He certainly ran, ran, ran away from me...

From what I've read, though, someone like my ex will tend to run from genuine love. He certainly ran, ran, ran away from me...

I think this statement is true as well. Especially if you've been hurt before. If someone comes around that actually treats you well and falls in love with you at first they may think great but later, with their history, they will assume it will fail no matter what. So they start these defensive maneuvers.

My ex was cheated on I think and she probably was constantly behaving like this because of this pain. I know guys in her past treated her poorly as well. Whether or not it's the whole truth I don't know. She rarely if ever spoke to me of how she felt. Again, protecting herself because of being hurt in the past. She always asked me first and her reaction was always based on my response. It wasn't real. It's all very confusing but I know her history has a lot to do with how she treated me. It probably has a lot to do with how he treated you as well.

-Just

A lack of empathy from an individual that goes beyond a simple 'not understanding' or just 'not getting it' is usually a trait related to either a borderline or full-blown personality disorder. There are of course varying degrees of it. My ex had absolutely no empathy, even with his children and very little insight into his personality or lack of empathy - to a point which was actually scary at times. As the previous person stated, a lack of empathy reflects a lack of soul, vibrancy and vitality of life. Someone who can't reach those things is usually fractured or damaged in some way which is hidden from them and those around them. In the case of my ex, he was very very good at mirroring others emotions, passing them off as his own. He was a very accomplished actor. The last few days I'd been nostalgising why he drew me, why I loved him. Now, I've just recalled why I'm glad he's gone. Thank you.[/quote

 

Souls with no footprints................

At its core:

Love is selfish

Empathy is selfless

....sounds wrong, right?

Think about the basic feelings, not the resultant behaviors...

IMO, empathy is the basis for the sincere and honest behavior of caring. Caring can exist as the result of other personality characteristics, but, literally, "feeling" another's emotional energy and taking it as one's own (in the moment) results in a completely selfless, almost blind, caring. Combine that with a sensitive nervous system and you've got the basis for some pretty profound mental illness BTDT....

Anyway, finding a healthy balance between empathy and love (the emotions) has been key to the progress I've made in MC. A prerequisite? I don't know...perhaps a partner....

Interesting subject..... My work now is to effectively attract someone with a similar perspective, rather than the emotional blanks I seem to attract. When I say "two dimensional", I don't mean it as an insult, but rather as an accurate description of how they appear to me. Extant, substantive, but without a depth of emotional energy. OK, my problem, I know

(I know the answer, actually: he does love his daughter. And that threw me off and made me think he was capable of loving me.)

The thing is, he is loving his daughter from his personal and very narrow perspective of what "love" is. And he will "love" her deeply and truly whenever she fits into his little box. And the other stuff that she is and expresses, he will find unacceptable.

I have a parent exactly as you describe, down to also knowing their own inability to empathize. I also didn't understand it, the first time I heard it said. Black and white thinking, judgment and narcissism are some issues that might also cloud how these people experience and treat their outer world.

The thing is, he is loving his daughter from his personal and very narrow perspective of what "love" is. And he will "love" her deeply and truly whenever she fits into his little box. And the other stuff that she is and expresses, he will find unacceptable.

 

I have a parent exactly as you describe, down to also knowing their own inability to empathize. I also didn't understand it, the first time I heard it said. Black and white thinking, judgment and narcissism are some issues that might also cloud how these people experience and treat their outer world.

This is such a befuddling piece of the puzzle to me. I asked him about his daughter's birth, whether it had been one of those lifechanging moments of looking into your child's eyes for the first time and feeling that rush of emotion... and he said..."nope". For him it was just a biological event. My little red flag siren went off -- this was such a strange reaction. But he also said that they "planned for", and wanted a child, even though their marriage was already crap by the time they conceived her.

But seeing him with her? He's totally present to her and all his attention is on her. Granted, she's six so it's very activity-based (drawing, riding scooters, playing tag, reading books). When she would cry a lot at night, missing her mother, he was pretty good about holding and comforting her. Even I can see there was a depth of emotion with her that I saw with no other person, including me.

Then again, he seemed very poorly attuned to the developmental stage of a 6-year old: he was totally fine with me sleeping over from the earliest months we were together. But for six months I refused to because I feared the emotional impact on her. He also thought she was exceptionally mature for her age and understood "more than you would think" about the divorce. I rolled my eyes (on the inside) when he said that because...come on...she's SIX. Five at the time, actually. And I got to witness her first real meltdown. It shocked Eric to the core because he thought she was handling the whole thing like a "trouper".

I don't know how to reconcile his behavior with his daughter with his very real inability to empathize with other people. It 'tricked' me into thinking he has a sensitive core.

His daughter, is in a way, an extension of himself. He loves her, because she is his "flesh and blood". Wait for the puberty and adulthood, when she has a full-grown independent life and personality. I bet you, he won't be so great and understanding then.

It shocked Eric to the core because he thought she was handling the whole thing like a "trouper".

Exactly as Nevermind says.

He "saw" a 'trouper' because that is what HE wanted his daughter to be -- her own reality was beside the point; will always be beside the point.

When her reality does not match his desired reality for her, he will expend great energy convincing her that SHE is "wrong", misinterpreting, not understanding, making a big deal of nothing, etc., etc.

He will minimize or deny everything she feels and is, that does not match his illusion of her.

In my case, parent's desire (box) for me is "happy and successful" -- my experiences and feelings are limited to that. I cannot express sadness, dissatisfaction, dysfunctional behaviours and habits, etc., etc.

And because of their limited range of emotions, one cannot be "too" happy or celebrate "too" loudly, either. They can't distinguish passion from anger -- both are just a "too strong" emotion for them to understand and allow.

For my sis-in-law, her parent's box is that SiL is "mean and inconsiderate" -- doesn't matter what she does for her parent, it is perceived as negative or only self-serving. SiL gets to be sad and dysfunctional, but not happy and successful.

So...who knows what Eric's daughter's limits will be, but it is more than very likely that she will have them imposed upon her.

It 'tricked' me into thinking he has a sensitive core.

Well, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to their own needs and pain. Sensitive like a truckload of dynamite, to their feelings of being misunderstood, misinterpreted, slighted, not considered, unappreciated, etc.

Some will quietly nurse their cargo of grievances and grief, and others will 'explode' it to those around them.

It's all fear-based, and very sad for them. Not at all that they don't have a Soul...their Soul is just so far buried beneath fear and anxiety that they have such a difficult time connecting to it. They give up Life's most joyous highs all so that they can avoid the smallest of Life's pain.

Well, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to their own needs and pain. Sensitive like a truckload of dynamite, to their feelings of being misunderstood, misinterpreted, slighted, not considered, unappreciated, etc.

 

Some will quietly nurse their cargo of grievances and grief, and others will 'explode' it to those around them.

 

It's all fear-based, and very sad for them. Not at all that they don't have a Soul...their Soul is just so far buried beneath fear and anxiety that they have such a difficult time connecting to it. They give up Life's most joyous highs all so that they can avoid the smallest of Life's pain.

...and he has developed SUCH a tough outer core that I never got a glimpse of the underlying sensitivities.

I am struggling with some of your and NM's comments, because they sounded as though a person like this has nefarious purposes or is wanting to hurt other people. That's not true in Eric's case. I think he is bewildered by peoples' feelings and has no ability to understand them and therefore respond appropriately to them. He was never critical of me, or prone to angry outbursts - he withdraws and disconnects from things that seem threatening. And he exhibits no genuine interest in other peoples' worlds (especially mine). In some sense, then, he is very passive. And I guess his passivity made it easier for me to sympathize with him and think he was 'reachable' or just needed a good dose of love to open up.

Had he been more of an angry narcissist, I would have left sooner - I dated someone with NPD years ago and I know better than to stay with someone as destructive as that. Eric was definitely of the "quiet nurser of his grievances and grief" mold - not the explosive one.

...and he has developed SUCH a tough outer core that I never got a glimpse of the underlying sensitivities.

More accurately is that HE does not allow his outer world to see the real him. (Sometimes we take it as our "failure" or lack of compassion, but that is not the case.)

I am struggling with some of your and NM's comments, because they sounded as though a person like this has nefarious purposes or is wanting to hurt other people.

His 'box' sounds a lot like my mom's. There is no outward sign of what they perceive as "negative"...no anger or aggression. Mine cannot even admit to the mild feeling of 'frustration'. Everything is always good and fine and no problem. Mine is a brave little soldier, indeed. (And that is how she wants my reality to be...all good and fine and no problem. Except, I don't LIKE that box!!!)

Their intentions are loving and honourable...they do honestly, genuinely believe that everything they do is for someone else. But, in the subconscious, that plays out as always sacrificing, doing something "nice" and their actions not being properly recognized.

But they are really doing "nice" things in an effort to get or keep someone else's love and affection...it becomes a manipulative tactic...there is an expectation that "if I do this, you will or ought to love me how I want to be loved." It is subconscious.

And HOW they are doing it is according to their own box. For example. If they really enjoy Beethoven, they will lovingly purchase you 300 Beethoven CDs EVEN AFTER you have indicated that you prefer RadioHead...or Brahms, for that matter.

And they will (subconsciously) feel rejected, instead of being able to conclude your reality...that you only rejected Beethoven.

It's subtle. It's not deliberate. We all have our own boxes, and our own ways of "creating" reality to fit our boxes. All actions come from noble intentions, but the results often get turned upside down or sideways; not at all as we envisioned and intended.

There's nothing "broken" about it, just unhealed old traumas and memories that are making us sad and keeping us in our boxes. And it triggers us when someone else's box doesn't fit our box. It's just one big freakin' comedy of errors, from one perspective

sunshinegirl:

I don't think your ex is malicious (not even my ex is), I just think that he has been a jerk to you. And nothing of the things you wrote indicates that any of this was your fault. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that he will really change with somebody else, or love somebody else (even his daughter) unconditionally. It doesn't sound like him.

He simply is not a person that could make you happy. He lacks empathy, interest in other people, an understanding of a perspective that is not his own among many other things. It's not even about the cheating. He never would have made you happy in the long run.

You're realising this now. And I think that's good. You were not dumped, you were set free!

His 'box' sounds a lot like my mom's. There is no outward sign of what they perceive as "negative"...no anger or aggression. Mine cannot even admit to the mild feeling of 'frustration'. Everything is always good and fine and no problem. Mine is a brave little soldier, indeed.

This is Eric, for sure. Mr. Laid Back, Mr. Happy-go-lucky, Mr. Never Bothered By Anything. He couldn't admit to frustration, either! He didn't admit to any feelings, really, I think because he has learned to shut them off/down. I started to feel abnormal for having days where I was in a bad mood, or frustrated, or in a funk - because Eric *never* was. Everything slid off him like rain on a slicker. He once told me that chick flicks made him cry, and I eventually became obsessed with making him watch a chick flick just so I could see some evidence of emotion.

Their intentions are loving and honourable...they do honestly, genuinely believe that everything they do is for someone else. But, in the subconscious, that plays out as always sacrificing, doing something "nice" and their actions not being properly recognized.

 

But they are really doing "nice" things in an effort to get or keep someone else's love and affection...it becomes a manipulative tactic...there is an expectation that "if I do this, you will or ought to love me how I want to be loved." It is subconscious.

 

And HOW they are doing it is according to their own box. For example. If they really enjoy Beethoven, they will lovingly purchase you 300 Beethoven CDs EVEN AFTER you have indicated that you prefer RadioHead...or Brahms, for that matter.

I'm not sure about this. In over a year together, Eric only ever got me one gift. ONE. And it was in my taste, for sure (jewelry). I get the feeling he learned to do giving things like this because it's what a 'dutiful boyfriend' does. Not out of real affection or a desire to make ME happy.

There's nothing "broken" about it, just unhealed old traumas and memories that are making us sad and keeping us in our boxes. And it triggers us when someone else's box doesn't fit our box. It's just one big freakin' comedy of errors, from one perspective

I guess here is where I disagree with you: I think someone IS broken when they cannot empathize and when they lie and cheat. The latter is blatantly selfish, and self-serving behavior and indicative of a person who cannot bond in a healthy way with someone else.

Everything slid off him like rain on a slicker.

In over a year together, Eric only ever got me one gift. ONE.

I think someone IS broken when they cannot empathize and when they lie and cheat.

Yes, for sure they tell themselves and act as if nothing negative is "sticking" to and affecting them. BIG D, denial .

My theory is that they are uncomfortable giving gifts for fear of it being rejected...which they will internalize as their 'Self' being rejected. My mom also does not buy gifts for anyone, any time. A different theory is as you say...they just can't be bothered trying to figure out what will make the recipient happy (a narcissistic type of behaviour.)

Yes, I'd say that some wiring has come loose when there is habitual, conscious lying and cheating. I just choose to see it as a "circuit" that is broken, rather than looking at the person as something "broken".

And, from within this same box that I prefer, a lack of empathy would have to be uncontrollable (which of course is definition of psychopathic) or conscious, for me to consider it the result of a "broken circuit".

But I am simply mentioning my personal philosophy, here...not disagreeing with yours. In either perspective, the results on their external world are hurtful and damaging.

This description was really surprisingly on-target with respect to my ex: http://www.voicelessness.com/intimacy.html.

An excerpt (bolded parts being especially relevant to my ex):

It is always striking when a bright, attractive and otherwise accomplished person cannot maintain an intimate relationship. I have seen many people like this in my practice, and one of the first tasks is to figure out why. Most of the time the person appears in my office as the bewildered half of a distressed couple. Their spouse's/partner's complaints are legion: the offending partner doesn't listen, they're in their own world, they have little or no interest in sex, they prefer to be alone, they are unable to intuit or understand emotion. The spouse complains that the marriage consists of two people sharing the same living space, splitting chores.

 

The person's childhood usually provides clues to the problem. Sometimes, people tell terrible stories of abuse and neglect: in these cases one can easily understand why intimacy is avoided. But other times people depict a non-eventful childhood, devoid of conflict or even moments of common unhappiness. When pressed they remember few specific details positive or negative--and this is the rub. When their full story is revealed, it becomes clear the person dulled the abrasive experience of day to day family life by paying little attention. In doing so, they successfully pushed people away and retreated to the safety of their own inner world and preoccupations. This unconscious strategy reduced conflict and guaranteed their emotional survival.

 

Very often, such a person's parents never entered their world, except in a negative, critical, controlling, or otherwise unempathic way. Many parents were narcissistic: they were so intent upon maintaining their "voice", they completely overwhelmed their children's. As a result, the child retreated to a smaller, safer place where they could maintain agency and find some private satisfaction. Sheltered in this mini-world, the person experienced little shared pleasure and little disappointment.

 

As I have described in other essays on this site, often the child's unconscious adaptation to a dysfunctional family interferes with his or her adult relationships. This is certainly true for children who retreat. Because the real self is safely tucked away, the adult must "invent" a different one that will appear as normal as possible and be able to negotiate the day to day interactions of adult life. Invented selves, however, have no interest in true intimacy. Instead, they exist as a kind of interface between the true self and the outside world, carefully monitoring and controlling what is allowed in and out. As a result, passion and empathy have to be manufactured--while the person may take the time in the early/romantic phase of a relationship to "act" this out, many soon tire of the effort. Often partners notice the "wooden" nature of their response or their obliviousness.

 

It is not unusual for these people to be particularly accomplished. They channel all of their energy toward a particular pursuit, and away from everything else that is happening around them. Computer related jobs are often ideal for these people, as are other tasks that require solitary focus and tremendous dedication to the exclusion of other life needs and demands. Workaholics often fit this category.

hell Sunshine I am married to that man....... be glad you have EX infront of his name.

Even the shrink can't deal with him.

Be thankful thankful thankful he is an ex!

hell Sunshine I am married to that man....... be glad you have EX infront of his name.

 

Even the shrink can't deal with him.

 

Be thankful thankful thankful he is an ex!

Sometimes I wish I could have a movie reel that would show me exactly what being married to him would have been like... so I can have more of a visceral gratitude about having "escaped" an unhappy future.

By all accounts he had an unhappy first marriage (of 12 years) that descended into an almost silent roommate situation. I still don't know why they brought a kid into their lives when things were already bad, but I do know that his wife's affair didn't start until after their daughter was born. So much for children "fixing" problems between the parents!

By the end of their marriage they were barely speaking to each other. I have to believe that would have been my future with him too. But I really wish I could grab hold of that with real gusto instead of descending into my magical thinking that somehow, somewhere, with someone, he will change into that wonderful guy I thought he was...

Obviously you're not having a great go of things with your H...

Well, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to their own needs and pain. Sensitive like a truckload of dynamite, to their feelings of being misunderstood, misinterpreted, slighted, not considered, unappreciated, etc.

 

Some will quietly nurse their cargo of grievances and grief, and others will 'explode' it to those around them.

 

It's all fear-based, and very sad for them. Not at all that they don't have a Soul...their Soul is just so far buried beneath fear and anxiety that they have such a difficult time connecting to it. They give up Life's most joyous highs all so that they can avoid the smallest of Life's pain.

Well said. I agree.

Wow, this thread is fascinating.

This issue (lack of empathy) is honestly THE biggest issue I had in my relationship with my ex-boyfriend.

Whoever said that this type of person is extra-sensitive to his/her OWN pain, situations and issues is DEAD ON. If I didn't show empathy, sympathy or interest with pretty much every situation, plan, or frustration in his life, he would get very defensive. Meanwhile, when I would open up about my OWN pain, the response would often be a joke, a dismissive comment, or a quick and meaningless "sorry," with a desire to change the subject. Granted, this didn't happen all the time, but for the most part I could see it in his eyes that there just wasn't that "connection" there - that ability, if you will.

My ex-husband was unbelievably empathetic, so I can tell genuine sorrow or empathy when I see/hear it. My ex-boyfriend just isn't capable of it, it seems. He also had a painful childhood and told me that his ex-wife used to lament this about him as well. Empathy is developed at a young age, and so it's difficult for me to believe that he'll ever develop this skill at this point.

The inability to empathize is something I can't live with in a relationship, honestly. I'm not the most empathetic person around, but I can absolutely empathize with true pain, loss and sorrow. I know when to shut up and just listen and it's evident on my face that I care. I just can't imagine spending my life with someone who can't empathize. To me, that would be unbearable and so very painful.