Enablers..???

[Star Gazer]

I find it amusing that those who are blatantly pointing fingers refuse to acknowledge that they too can be harsh.

 

Unlike Taramare, and even myself, Touche, and TBF, who can acknowledge that we have on occasion taken the bait, been overly sarcastic, or given "tough love," a select handful of posters dish out such ridiculously cruel comments at times (not even disguised as advice!) that it's literally laughable to see them in this thread whining.

[Tomcat33]

And it is just natural. Being bullied is the only way that the insecure person is going to learn to have confidence. The insecure person is not going to learn to be confident and strong by being pampered and soothed.

 

.

 

Wow I really hope you don't have kids with that kind of attitude??

And I certainly would not want someon heading a school with that kind of philosophy, lest I remind you that America is the home of the school yard bully and kids have gone as far as commiting suicide due to the amount of bullying they receive in school. Not to mention others are deprived of an education due to the levels of agression/violence they endure just for showing up at school and not "looking right".

 

I understand it is your belief but you really should try to expand your reasoning beyond a bunch of faceless adults in cyberland to where this actually stems from.

[Tomcat33]

I

I see you've earned quite a few fans though...It must be nice to be a LS celebrity. Where's the red cybercarpet? TomCat's in the hizzouse!

 

:lmao: "cybercarpet"!! :lmao: That was funny.

 

I think it's more like a welcome mat. I've earned more enemies than fans actually but it's all good. My fans are hardcore so they more than make up for the riff raff I have to cast a side every now and then.

 

Fo Shizzle Virsnizzle!

[Ariadne]

Wow I really hope you don't have kids with that kind of attitude??

And I certainly would not want someon heading a school with that kind of philosophy

 

And someone says.. so, do you think is ok for little kids to be bullied at school?

 

No, I believe children should be protected.

[Ariadne]

.............................

[Event Horizon]

I believe a lot of this is the fault of the Administrators.

 

A forum of this size, while not huge, is busy enough that it requires more moderation(especially given the subject matter.) I've seen countless examples of users getting mad at one another in a thread that should have been closed long, long before. Not to mention that it wouldn't have even needed closing had there been a mod around to remove posts and leave a request to cease with posts that break forum rules.

 

Obviously there is a balance between letting people speak freely and enforcing rules, but there is practically no moderation on this site until the crap really hits the fan. Then they hand out infractions as if it's all the users fault.

 

I deserved my infraction/suspension but there are many others who got one simply because this kinda stuff was allowed to go too far. At some point Admins need to take some responsibility for what gets said around here.

 

This thread is a perfect example of one that should have been closed as it's gone totally off the original topic.

 

I mean for craps sake, I only report/alert spam, but when I report it I've seen the spam sit around for another 12 hours. That's just crazy. Especially considering I can't be the only one that reported it.

 

Some of this lack of moderation leads to bad blood between members and it's not all the users fault. We on the internet will always go as far as we think we can, it's up to the Admins to draw a line and actively enforce it BEFORE crap really hits the fan and BEFORE infractions and suspensions are required.

 

E..H

[Ruby]

I think we should be able to come here and get advice without fear of being bullied

[Lishy]

You are missing the point Star and yet again you have included yourself in a clique so that you have back up and you are also putting yourself up in the hierarchy. There is no hierarchy, we are all equal.

 

Let us stop beating around the bush and come out with the problem at hand .... Enabling BULLYING!

 

I will give you one example:

 

Recently a poster called Lauriebelle started a thread on recent problems she was encountering in her relationship. LB had posted before about other problems so many members had background info on previous difficulties. These posters, whome I will not name, decided they had had enough of her problems and took it upon themelves to dish out some 'tough love' .... Only it did not surmount to just being honest it amounted to outright bullying as LB was called names such as 'brattish, childish, immature, and her basic character was picked at bit by bit. One poster even exclaimed that LB only still had a relationship because of her! They ganged up on her, not as individuals, but together, and demeaned her to the point of her having to leave to thread. Then we saw them high fiving each other and patting eachother on the back for their 'good work' - Hmmmmmmmm how is this helpful?

 

This bullying was coming from posters who follow the same bad patterns in their own love life and cannot take any kind of critisism and report anyone who says what they do not want to hear. Now we ALL have problems or we would not be at LS and we ALL have made mistakes on how we deal with certain people, none of us are perfect. No one here has stated how perfect they are because no one could!

 

Being honest and upfront and 'saying it as it is' is one thing but blatant bullying is another. These same posters have then gone onto other threads to make snide comments to the people who stood up to them and gave them food for thought. They do not admit or apologise for upsetting LB, they continue to sit on their high horses and refuse to accept responsibility for their own mean actions and excuse it by saying that they did what they did 'out of love' and that everyone else is just as guilty because everyone gives strong advice - Note: strong advice and bullying as a group against one person are 2 very different things!

 

I was one of the members who have stood up to the bullies and they have tried to gang up and bully me, the only difference is that I am not one iota bothered about what is said about me but other members could leave because of being bullied so this needs to be addressed

 

I have had to delete PMs becuase my inbox was full with PMs that I recieved from members who are too worried to say what they think in the forums for fear of 1. being the next target and 2. being suspended as they know they will be reported!

 

Let us all not forget that there are real people behind the avatars on here and bullying is not cool!

[OpenBook]

People don't resort to bullying because they want to teach someone a lesson. They do it because it's low behavior that makes them feel powerful. And they do it because they're allowed to get away with. And they only target those who they feel least threatened by so they are not at risk of actually being hurt.

 

Really? Is that why you're on Lizzie's case so bad? It sounds like you know yourself pretty well there, johan.

[grogster]

Things I've learned reading this Thread:

 

1. One person's bullying is another person's tough love;

 

2. There's a backlash against the "tough love" clique;

 

3. The Lauriebelle Thread created a great deal of division and dissension (I must read it if it's still accessible);

 

4. Conflict and hostility exists between the "tough love" faction and the "enabler" faction;

 

5. Female posters are the main combatants in this "War of the Posters";

 

6. Although I'm just a guy, I prefer the "enablers" who are less dogmatic, snide and snarky than the "tough love" crowd;

 

7. It's better to err on the side of being human.

[Virgo1982]

:lmao: "cybercarpet"!! :lmao: That was funny.

 

I think it's more like a welcome mat. I've earned more enemies than fans actually but it's all good. My fans are hardcore so they more than make up for the riff raff I have to cast a side every now and then.

 

Fo Shizzle Virsnizzle!

 

Yeah, even your signature is famous.

[Die Hard]

Really? Is that why you're on Lizzie's case so bad? It sounds like you know yourself pretty well there, johan.

Why the need to attack him? He made a very thoughtful post and you go and dredge up some crap?? I've lurked here long enough to know that Lizzie can handle herself and doesn't need your help.

[Virgo1982]

Things I've learned reading this Thread:

 

1. One person's bullying is another person's tough love;

 

2. There's a backlash against the "tough love" clique;

 

3. The Lauriebelle Thread created a great deal of division and dissension (I must read it if it's still accessible);

 

4. Conflict and hostility exists between the "tough love" faction and the "enabler" faction;

 

5. Female posters are the main combatants in this "War of the Posters";

 

6. Although I'm just a guy, I prefer the "enablers" who are less dogmatic, snide and snarky than the "tough love" crowd;

 

7. It's better to err on the side of being human.

 

Way to sum it up. I like it. Though I think the conflict causes "tough lovers" to enable each other and "enablers" to practice tough love-then again, maybe love doesn't have anything to do with it...But, you catch my drift.

[grogster]

Way to sum it up. I like it. Though I think the conflict causes "tough lovers" to enable each other and "enablers" to practice tough love-then again, maybe love doesn't have anything to do with it...But, you catch my drift.

 

Oh yes, I catch your drift: This has absolutely nothing to do with "love."

[Tomcat33]

Yeah, even your signature is famous.

 

Yes stupidity follows me around to "mimicke" me. We tend to look up when we feel inadequate and aim for higher things. I take immitation as a form of flattery how much louder can a person scream out "you affect me THIS much"!

[Virgo1982]

Yes stupidity follows me around to "mimicke" me. We tend to look up when we feel inadequate and aim for higher things. I take immitation as a form of flattery how much louder can a person scream out "you affect me THIS much"!

 

Just an adoring fan;)

[Tomcat33]

Just an adoring fan;)

 

Roll out the welcome mat!

[Virgo1982]

Roll out the welcome mat!

 

I don't know if she'd take it that far. Though you have to be there to be baited...

[Walk]

Definition of Bullying:

1. [n] the act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something

2. [adj] noisily domineering; tending to browbeat others

 

OR...

Law Society of NSW - Prevention of Workplace Bullying

http://www.lawsociety.com.au/uploads/filelibrary/1094446976781_0.9084470818783515.pdf

"unreasonable and inappropriate workplace behaviour includes bullying, which intimidates, offends, degrades, insults or humiliates an employee, possibly in front of co-workers, clients or customers and which includes physical or psychological behaviour".

 

MSF Union - from Tim Field's famous site: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/defns.htm

"Persistent, offensive, abusive, intimidating or insulting behaviour , abuse of power or unfair penal sanctions which makes the recipient feel upset, threatened, humiliated or vulnerable, which undermines their self-confidence and which may cause them to suffer stress".

 

Definition of Tough Love by Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

: love or affectionate concern expressed in a stern or unsentimental manner (as through discipline) especially to promote responsible behavior

 

Definition of the word Stern:

Stern

adj 1: of a stern or strict bearing or demeanor; forbidding in aspect; "an austere expression"; "a stern face" [syn: austere]

2: not to be placated or appeased or moved by entreaty;"grim determination"; "grim necessity"; "Russia's final hour, it seemed, approached with inexorable certainty"; "relentless persecution"; "the stern demands of parenthood [syn: grim, inexorable, relentless, unappeasable, unforgiving, unrelenting]

3: severe and unremitting in making demands; "an exacting instructor"; "a stern disciplinarian"; "strict standards" [syn: strict, exacting]

 

How do we prevent ourselves or others from crossing the line from tough love to bullying? And where does that line lay?

 

When a poster is temporarily banned from LS does that prove the line was crossed? What if they get an infraction? If it doesn't prove anything, then what would prove that the line between tough love and bullying was crossed?

 

I'm curious because some of the ones touting tough love get banned for their tactics. I've always attempted to conduct myself with respect on this board, and the 2 times (over 3 years) that I've had an infraction I KNOW I crossed the line. I know I deserved to receive that warning because I was no longer demonstrating "tough love" but had crossed over into bullying and disrespectful behavior.

 

When posters get warnings, or banned, how do they justify their behavior as "tough love"?

[Virgo1982]

By the fact that we're all human.

[Walk]

By the fact that we're all human.

They justify their actions by saying they're human? That doesn't make much sense.

 

Was there more to that thought, or are you sticking with the highly generalized?

[Virgo1982]

They justify their actions by saying they're human? That doesn't make much sense.

 

Was there more to that thought, or are you sticking with the highly generalized?

 

No, I am saying they would say human error or bias.

[Lishy]

We are alll capable of making a misjudgement and reacting in a way that is not in the best interest of the third party but more in interest of ourselves, we all have bad days and are less tollerable at certain times.

 

I think that being tough with someone i.e when all you hear is someone putting themelves down and saying they are worthless in the end you could snap and say "ok if you ARE worthless, what are you going to do about it?" because you have tried to show them just how worthwhile they are and nothing works - But it is different if you say "yeah, you are damn right you are worthless, you are not worth the dirt from my shoe, you are ugly and smelly and bratty and childish and if it was not for me and others here you would be dead by now" You see?

 

Tough love works, I know it works on me when I am in a quandry, but bullying never works!

[Tomcat33]

Though you have to be there to be baited...

 

Of course I wouldn't miss it for the world! "Here fishy fishy...I love the smell of dead carp in the morning."

 

 

"Baited" what a ridiculous concept. No one but yourself is responsible for how you choose to manifest your emotions, on the other hand when a person is ganged up on by more than one person it is TOTALLY understandable that a person is aimed at to be made to break.

I can justify a person falling out of line to defend themselves when they are ganged up on but I cannot justify collective bullying. It's pathetic really.

[Taramere]

How do we prevent ourselves or others from crossing the line from tough love to bullying? And where does that line lay?

 

I think if you can say something pretty critical to someone and be prepared to get a fairly angry response from them without being outraged by that anger, or telling them off for being angry/defensive, then that's probably "tough love" rather than bullying. It is, at least, respectful. You're giving the person an opportunity to respond to the criticism. Mild anger, in response to criticism, is to be expected. Signs that a bullying situation might develop are when the person's responses to the criticism are stifled and disrespected. Some favourites an old boss of mine used to use when I was responding to criticism during supervision:

 

1. Now you see - you're being defensive.

2. You seem angry. Is this raising issues for you? Do you have anger management problems?

3. It's somewhat passive aggressive when people shut down and go quiet as you're doing just now.

 

I filtered 2 and 3 out, and concentrated on 1. Being defensive is the fastest way to increase a bullying situation - because effectively you're telling the person "I care what you think. I want to change your mind about me. I don't want you or other people listening to this to think badly of me..."

 

So....

 

"You seem angry."

"Do I?"

"That's a little passive aggressive?"

"Is it?"

"Can we have a conversation without you being passive aggressive?"

"I'm sure we can. Could you explain exactly how you find this passive aggressive?"

"You're like the sulky kid who stares out of the window when the teacher's talking to her."

"What's the wrong in that? Does the wrong relate to the way it makes the teacher feel? How would a competent teacher handle that situation?"

 

Putting a bit of responsibility back onto the other person who's veering towards bullying. Not automatically attempting to change your behaviour just to please them, but encouraging them to think about why your behaviour is pissing them off and what they personally could do to get a better response from you. That's one way for a person to steer someone who's attempting to brow-beat them back towards delivering constructive criticism - and also taking a bit of responsibility for their own behaviour.

 

You raise good questions, Walk. I'd also be interested in hearing about some methods, that don't involve making personal attacks, that other people find useful in steering people away from both bullying and over-enabling.