Enablers..???

[Jake Barnes]

But I know there are those who aren't as interested in helping as they are in being proven right or winning. Or who feel genuine disgust at what they see in the person who is exposing a problem. Those people will never be helpful, in spite of their protests to the contrary. And they will be posting on this board for as long as it exists.

Why would they care about winning as if its a court case? Can you imagine if your friends treated every intimate discussion as if it were a zero sum game?

 

Do you think there are just some people so absurd and warped as to see everything in terms of black or white, winner or loser?

 

That doesnt seem possible to me

[johan]

Why would they care about winning as if its a court case? Can you imagine if your friends treated every intimate discussion as if it were a zero sum game?

 

Do you think there are just some people so absurd and warped as to see everything in terms of black or white, winner or loser?

 

That doesnt seem possible to me

 

I think it's possible, Jake. But it's not that they actually see things that way. They know better. Only a truly dense person wouldn't. They just choose that point of view when it's convenient.

 

If you were building something which kind of help would you prefer: Type 1) someone who picks up tools and starts trying to see what you're trying to build and helps where you need it, or Type 2) someone who stands off to the side, instructs you from a position of thinking they know how to do it better and makes fun of you when they see you screw up.

 

The first person is clearly enabling you. The second is not, but they can legitimately argue that they are trying to help. The first person would have to see the problem from your point of view and would have to understand how you got where you are, i.e. empathy. The second person need not do that.

 

To complete the analogy, if you were Type 1 and found you were helping someone build something destructive or found that they were stubbornly sticking to a failing plan, what would you do? Stand off to the side, shout instructions and make fun of them? Or maybe you'd wish them well and move on. The latter is the more mature choice.

[Lovelybird]

I think it's possible, Jake. But it's not that they actually see things that way. They know better. Only a truly dense person wouldn't. They just choose that point of view when it's convenient.

 

If you were building something which kind of help would you prefer: Type 1) someone who picks up tools and starts trying to see what you're trying to build and helps where you need it, or Type 2) someone who stands off to the side, instructs you from a position of thinking they know how to do it better and makes fun of you when they see you screw up.

 

The first person is clearly enabling you. The second is not, but they can legitimately argue that they are trying to help. The first person would have to see the problem from your point of view and would have to understand how you got where you are, i.e. empathy. The second person need not do that.

 

To complete the analogy, if you were Type 1 and found you were helping someone build something destructive or found that they were stubbornly sticking to a failing plan, what would you do? Stand off to the side, shout instructions and make fun of them? Or maybe you'd wish them well and move on. The latter is the more mature choice.

Johan, you really have a good way to express thoughts !

 

I prefer type 1) help.

maybe type 2) have some own issues need to deal with, such as ego and frustrations, which myself also feel guilty of sometimes

[Walk]

If you were building something which kind of help would you prefer: Type 1) someone who picks up tools and starts trying to see what you're trying to build and helps where you need it, or Type 2) someone who stands off to the side, instructs you from a position of thinking they know how to do it better and makes fun of you when they see you screw up.

 

That was a really good analogy Johan.

 

I've dealt with both of those types of people, not only a construction type setting but also a relationship type setting, and it annoys me to no end to deal with the type 2 person.

 

Nothing like swealtering on an asphalt roof in 100 degree heat while a friend shouts up at you that you aren't doing "it" right.

 

However, in a work type situation it seems that the type 2 person gets the recognition and kudo's for the work. It seems as if that type of mentality is rewarded in society as a "Take charge" type of person. Someone who supposedly gets things done, while type 1 tends to be overlooked. The jobs get done, no waves created, no big drama's... no flash and pop that attracts attention.

 

And I've seen the same on this board. I'll say this from my view point so as not to alienate anyone... but sometimes I get caught up in wanting to be recognized for what I say on here. Which can result in me saying something in a manner that will generate the most attention. Of course, its at that point that I have to smack myself and drag my ego out back and kick it.

 

It seems some posters ego's get too involved in the post, and they shout out their messages as though they are the worlds recognized top expert on the subject. When in reality, they can't pick up that hammer without smacking their own thumb.

 

 

On a side note: the whole notion of "tough love" on this board is hard for me to swallow. I like the people on here, I want them to succeed. But (and maybe this is callous of me) I don't Love the people on this board. When I shut down my computer, I don't get butterflies from thinking of the 12 people I just posted replies to on this board. I don't have any deep foundation of shared experiences that bond me closely to any particular poster on here. I like a majority of the people on here... but I could never classify anything I say as a product of my loving them. I love my family, I love my H, I love some of my friends in real life. And if I say something hurtful to someone on this board, its not because I "love" them... its (9 times out of 10) because someone either struck a chord with something in my head, or my ego got the better of me.

[Lishy]

Wow Walk you said exactly what I was thinking!

 

I have seen people on here claim they said what they did out of 'love' for the person posing the problem. That is a big load of bull. You cannot love a person just from seeing how they type. There is so much more involved in loving a person. Of course we all have people who we think are great, I have many people on here who I think are lovely and sweet and kind etc, it does not mean they are important in my life. The people important to me are the people in my family, my life long friends etc.

 

We all get to a stage where we are sick of watching X doing the same thing time after time and then moaning and crying about it. It DOES get boring and you have enough of saying the same things time and time again and the OP never taking that advice and then crying again that it has all gone wrong

 

It is so easy to see things from the outside and with no emotions involved BUT it does not give anyone the right to call people names and put down their basic character.

 

I think we should just avoid posting on certain threads unless we have the time and patience to say what is needed. Calling someone names will never work. Putting someone down rarely has a positive effect, all it amounts to is bullying.

 

The funny thing is that most of the people on here who get on their high horse are just as guilty of not listening to good advice and in some cases they start big arguments because they do not like what they hear. We are all guilty of it.

 

So people, THINK before you fly into someone, thaink how you would feel if people said those things to you!

[Taramere]

That was a really good analogy Johan.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Very vivid imagery. As is....

 

Nothing like swealtering on an asphalt roof in 100 degree heat while a friend shouts up at you that you aren't doing "it" right.

 

Haha. Sorry, but when I read that it made me think of this comedian who was popular in the UK a while back. Harry Enfield. He had a variety of characters, one of whom was "You don't wanna do that!"

 

Lishy - you must remember that guy?

 

God, youtube is a wonderful invention.

 

More seriously - Walk, yes. I feel much as you do about people on the board. There are quite a few who I genuinely enjoy having discussions with...and I'm pretty sure that if I knew them in real life I would be friends with them. But we don't know and care about eachother in the way that we know and care about our families and real life friends. There's only so much that can be conveyed and shared via words on a screen.

[Lishy]

Yes I know Harry Enfield T - He is so funny! Stood there pointing his finger and shaking his head lol

 

Funny

[Taramere]

I'm posting it again, for emphasis - with some accompanying advice. This is not enabling, nor is it tough love. Well okay, perhaps it might be enabling...but damn it it's empowering advice for everyone in the spirit of Loveshack egalitarianism.

 

Whether you're tired of being criticised for mistakes, failure to change by due deadlines, dispensing tough love, dispensing weak love, dispensing no love, getting no love, being in a relationship, not being in a relationship, being male, being female, being old, being young, being childish, being sanctimonious, being too nice, being too nasty, being an undiagnosed narcissist, being a narcissistic supply source, being too dependent/co-dependent/annoyingly smug about being interdependent....being YOU....

 

Whatever the particular misdemeanour that you're being hauled over the coals for, think of this sketch and imagine your critics are the two experts on the show. It may be more effective than imagining people in their underwear or on the toilet.

 

Here it is. Tough, uncompromising "telling it as it is" in action:

 

[Lishy]

I am cracking up laughing here T!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I can just imagine certain posters here playing those parts

 

HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leoni]

I see a lot of greatness being displayed, so many wonderful insights and input from the leaders of our community. Hopefully, these self-same leaders will lead by example and not by supervisory tactics.

 

I think it safe to say that everyone is looking forward to a renewal of help being applied by members who've not done much lately or ever, to refuel the community beyond using LS as a form of entertainment centre.

 

New members arrive daily. Please show us how it's done and not for a short burst, for the long-term!

[Taramere]

I see a lot of greatness being displayed, so many wonderful insights and input from the leaders of our community. Hopefully, these self-same leaders will lead by example and not by supervisory tactics.

 

I think it safe to say that everyone is looking forward to a renewal of help being applied by members who've not done much lately or ever, to refuel the community beyond using LS as a form of entertainment centre.

 

New members arrive daily. Please show us how it's done and not for a short burst, for the long-term!

 

I feel terrible now. I have to admit that I don't regard contributing to LS as some kind of charitable work that I perform as a duty to the community. I do it because I find it interesting and stimulating. At times, anyway.

 

It's good to know that some people out there are prepared to toil on tirelessly, grimly and thanklessly for the unappreciative masses who depend on them.

 

I know I shouldn't skive off, but I really feel the need to go and partake of some alcohol and cheery company at my local hostelry now. I am, of course, prepared to don a cleaner's overall and perform thread-scrubbing duties with a small toothbrush tomorrow. In penance.

 

We're all counting on you and TBF to keep up the good work, Leoni!

[johan]

Speaking for myself, when I provide help or advice, I follow my own standards. But no one is obligated to contribute here. When I first joined this site, it was made clear that there are no professionals present, and people should take what comes to them with a grain of salt. In spite of the intentions with which it was given. This site is meant to be a form of entertainment, but we're also meant to follow the guidelines.

 

Taramere or Walk or any others are not obligated to provide advice and show anyone how it's done. But they may have helped in their own way by pointing out where others may not have had a sincere wish to help in spite of their own protests. And where that supposed help may in fact reinforce the behavior it is a response to. Or at the very least alienate people from the site, lessening the diversity and making it more of a monoculture.

 

I think speaking out against attacks and ridicule and holding people accountable is a fine form of help. Why shouldn't people be able to do that?

[Leoni]

As long as the reverse holds true where every display of behaviour, that members disagree on, be it methodology or expression can be held up to the light, examined, force fed, it's all good!

 

Beyond that, I think it important that those who are capable of providing instruction to the Community, should also be held accountable for everything that's stated and be willing to support and refuel whatever's lost.

 

It's only fair that people display suggested techniques to illustrate how well it works.

1. It's very easy to criticize but not so easy to do.
   
2. It's very easy to criticize, when you don't do or rarely do.
   
3. It's also very easy to criticize someone when they're a volume poster, since no one is perfect.
   

Advice is freely given, in the manner it's given. It would be very easy for myself, for example, to critique each and every member for their anomolies, even their methodology.

[Taramere]

I knew I shouldn't have logged back on, but I couldn't resist Let's see how I do with a drop of alcohol in my system. Ta da!!! Stand back everyone - and watch the board leader hold forth!!!

 

I'm kidding. Leoni, first of all I see no board leaders here. Other than, I suppose, the admin and moderation team. You might perceive a hierarchy, but that's not necessarily a universal perception. The more you think in terms of "there's a hierarchy on this board" then assuming that you're a fairly competitive person with a tendency towards leadership, you'll probably want to be at the top of it.

 

I'm competitive too, but I'm not a leader type. I'm competitive in the sense that I like to win competitions and debates. I do indeed enjoy it when other people say "I agree with you. I think you made a good point." If it's someone I respect, then that means I'm making a fair go of the debate.

 

What I enjoy more than that, though, is when someone shifts me to a new way of thinking. Gives me a fresh perspective. Intellectually, there is nothing more exciting than that - and I'm sure, as someone who enjoys intellectual pursuits, you'll agree. And if you find that more intellectually exciting than any other aspect of debate, then it'll take priority over any need to be right, any desire to score points in a trivial message board argument, or any wish to make other people look bad/defend yourself from perceived slights.

 

I may well be wrong about this - but it feels like you want to draw me into a catfight here, and I've given you a bit of that. I'm not going to give any more, because I find catfighting boring as well as embarrassing. Conflict is fine. Catfights? The level learning and mental stimulation to be gained in a catfight plummets to zero. At best you get to do a bit of venting with sarcasm and ad hominem attacks. But that only serves a purpose if you feel the need to vent.

 

Provided they adhere to the guidelines, anyone's free to debate here. You mentioned the possibility of putting other people's methods under the spotlight and criticising them. If you feel the urge to do that to me, then that's fine by me. I won't hit the alert button on your posts for it. If you want to do it out of some punitive desire then I'm pretty sure I won't collapse into a quivering wreck. I probably won't respond very much, though - because your motives will be impure. It'll be all about you trying to gain some kind of upper hand rather than exploring a topic. The likelihood of having a really good, mind-expanding debate under those circumstances is low. Also, you'll lose the respect of other posters who are here to discuss and debate things rather than have catfights and drama.

 

Generally you present yourself in a far more adult way, and I've often enjoyed discussing things with you. I hope we can get back to that soon, and although I'm pretty sure that by this stage anything and everything I say is being perceived as condescending, I do mean that sincerely.

[Leoni]

I don't feel the need to critique everyone else's anomolies or methodology. It's the beauty of LS, to have differing opinions and methodology. If the moderators and admin team feel that something is against the guidelines and rules, they're certain to dispense justice where they see fit.

 

Beyond that, members are free to provide advice in whatever form they wish. Debating within a thread can provide good meat for the opening posters to chew. It allows them to pick and choose where most often, they fall somewhere in the middle since in any debate, both sides tend to take extreme views to offset the other side. Such is life on the podium.

 

To use the content of this thread as an example, it appears the rescuers are displaying both victim and persecutor behaviour.

[Walk]

I see a lot of greatness being displayed, so many wonderful insights and input from the leaders of our community. Hopefully, these self-same leaders will lead by example and not by supervisory tactics.

Who do you feel these leaders are in LS? Or better yet, what makes a member a leader on LS? Number of posts, type of post, content of post?

 

I think it safe to say that everyone is looking forward to a renewal of help being applied by members who've not done much lately or ever, to refuel the community beyond using LS as a form of entertainment centre.

I haven't noticed a lag in help on these boards. I've noticed there's generally a cyclical type of poster that frequents this board, and based on what type that is at that point in the cycle is reflected in the posts. What do you feel is lacking and needs to be renewed?

 

New members arrive daily. Please show us how it's done and not for a short burst, for the long-term!

New members sometimes have unique methods of reminding long-time posters of best methods to interact with others. Long-time posters sometimes get caught in bad habits over time. New posters bring fresh eyes to the long term interactions on this board.

 

Number of posts, length of registered time on here, does not make someone more knowledgable or better skilled at communicating then another person.

 

But I'm curious, what would be your ideal for how it "should" be done? What should be the role of long-time posters.. the (as you called them) leaders of this board? And what in your eyes differentiates a leader from someone who has a high number of posts?

 

In my opinion, I feel it should be a goal of long-time members to keep an open mind regarding problems posted on here. Its almost as if after seeing the same type of thread repeated over and over, its easier to say "Oh, I've seen this before on here, just do X". But each person and situation is unique. It may have characteristics that are shared between people, but not everyone has the same methods of communication, or coping skills. So for one person that advice may work, for the next 2 it may only partially work, and for 1 it won't even be in the ball park.

 

Long time posters tend to get a myopic vision of how things ought to be handled. They see characteristics "a, b, and c" in a post that is similiar to the "a, b, and c" of the hundred of other threads they've read and its assumed that "x, y, and z" will consistely be correct assumptions. It removes the complexity and uniqueness that makes boards like LS important. If all situations that share a, b and c should apply the same actions then there's no reason to repost a topic on retroactive jealousy, or why won't he call me. The answer would be x, y, and z and we'd all shut off our computers and watch tv.

 

And it all boils down to how a poster states his/her opening post on a thread. Whatever is written in that post colors the entire thread. Posters get locked into snap judgements about how to resolve it, and regardless of more details, it stays pretty consistent throughout.

[Leoni]

Truth be told Walk, there are only members and the admin/mod team. I believe there was some self-styling going on.

 

Any component of refueling based on both an "improved" technique and amount of advice given can only be beneficial to any members requesting advice or soliciting opinions.

 

I think it up to the member giving advice to try to provide it the best way they can. If it's not in the same manner that other member(s) choose to provide it, that's moot. It's very easy to critique and far more difficult to do. I strongly encourage members who feel they have the right way to handle each and every situation, to post the "right way", instead of critiquing others.

[Lishy]

When a member is making another member cry then they deserve come critique!

 

How about this, how about we realise that everyone is different and everyone has different ways of handling things and how about we stop enabling people to be able to be outright mean and upset others and make them feel worse?

 

That sounds like a deal to me!

[Leoni]

How about we just stop critiquing each other and allow the mods/admin team to decide what's best for the community?

 

I've seen many members express themselves in ways that appear to be appalling to me but have accepted that different members have different approaches and most definitely, many who hold up the magnifying glass, need to review their own behaviours, be it direct textual conflict, mockery or passive aggressive behaviours. If members are unable to see their own behaviours perhaps they need to do some inner self-auditing.

 

The drama triangle continues to be perpetuated. No one is truly innocent. There's a lot going on under the surface, much of which are harboured resentments and personal grievances. Maybe it's best to take these offline with each other through PM or just agree to disagree.

[Taramere]

After several days of this, agreeing to disagree as to whether A was right to say B and C was right to say D sounds by far the best solution. Does absolute consensus ever get reached in any dispute? Probably not unless some of the parties are willing to lie and say "I think you're right. I agree unreservedly with your perspective." And nobody should be required to lie in order to bring a dispute to a close.

 

It's just a message board dispute. Like any dispute it might have raised issues from real life/past events for people involved, but that's separate to the interaction people have with eachother on this board. Much as we might engage in discussion here, we're not embroiled in eachothers real lives. Any resentments are surely either very superficial - or relate to individual issues from real life that needn't be transposed onto the interactions people have with eachother on this board.

[Leoni]

I fully agree that people should keep everything separate, whether it be real life disputes or disputes displayed on messageboards such as LS.

 

Having said that, members are human, therefore will allow personal opinion/revenge tactics, to affect their situational judgement. No one is innocent.

[johan]

I have to agree with this. I'm continually impressed by the stubborn, petty, belligerence of people. Never more than on anonymous boards. While this could be acknowledged as a human "foible", it should really be taken as a sign of a lesser person. Great people can overcome their pride for the greater good. And they can look past the bitter treachery of disagreement to see at least some good in the person who deigns to take an opposing viewpoint.

 

Actually, even average people can do that.

 

This is the last word on this thread, by the way. Whoever posts next is too prideful to allow someone else to get the last word.

[Leoni]

Manipulation is also a form of suppression and control. Creating ultimatums can generate unwanted effects.

[johan]

Hard to resist, isn't it.

[Leoni]

But of course. The trap was set, so it needed to be triggered.

 

Insults are set within the trap to bait, to create a win/win situation for the creator of the trap. 'Tis most fascinating to observe and trip it, so that the individual can be amused by the outcome. I know I am.