Individual Counseling Hurtful in an Affair?

[TrustInYourself]

How did you know except through your mother?

My father would leave midday and wouldn't return until the next day. He would bring the woman around and say that she was his friend. He'd bring her children around to play and associate with us. I was forced to call this woman my aunt...

[Ronni_W]

But why is it "bad-mouthing" to simply state the facts?

Hey look, we have been having a nice and respectful discussion...it would be such a shame to start insulting each other's intelligence at this point, don't you agree?

 

If nothing else why is it not helpful for them to at some point understand what happened in our marriage so that they do not repeat history.

Because your version of what happened would just be so darned DESTRUCTIVE to the children.

I really don't care what you tell other grown-ups about it. Call your ex every freakin' expletive in the book...and make up a few more. Heck, I'll HELP you make up a few more.

 

I just don't get a parent who wants to spew anger and vengeance in the name of "love and family commitment" and positive values like that -- if you can just come over here and look it at from my side, you may be able to see how almost obscenely absurd it is.

I mean at any age, not just the "appropriate age" -- how is anger and vengeance (learnt from one parent and intended to be ammunition against the other parent, no less) supposed to be "helpful" or useful to the children?

 

There is HUGE difference between being super-angry and losing one's sane perspective -- if you will allow it, I will help you stay on the super-angry side, deal?

 

Absent the affair it might well be that my wife and I conclude "we have changed" and part friends after a credible effort at counseling.

But the affair changes that enormously. I don't think she can even know what she wants while in the fog of an affair.

"Absent the affair" is one of those "if only's" that you will just have to learn to get over. And you will have to learn it, if for nothing else, your children.

 

You are free to indulge your need/want to obsess about not having a "credible effort at counseling" but the problem with that is: your obsession and a buck will get you half a donut...and that is all.

 

The affair changes things -- that is your truism. Now what? It still just changes things. It does not have to change YOU as a human being. You are not compelled by some freakish force or entity to turn into, and act like, a freakish force or entity, if you see what I mean?

 

Obsess upon the affair and lack of counseling, and you just end up with two halves of two donuts. No, actually, you will still need two dollars. I am not seeing how it is helpful for YOU, to do this to yourself. (Nevermind helpful to your children.)

 

Your children need a leader and guide who will help them develop positive and healthy thoughts and behaviours. Anger and bad-mouthing and the like does not make you that. It puts you on the side of negative and dysfunctional. And, honest to God, I'd love for your children to rather have the influence of "positive and healthy". Well, not JUST yours...all children, everywhere.

[n9688m]

I just don't get a parent who wants to spew anger and vengeance in the name of "love and family commitment" and positive values like that

 

Who said anything about anger and veneanance? I could just archive the pertinent emails and let the kids read them without any comment from me someday. Let me wife's words speak for herself.

 

The affair changes things -- that is your truism. Now what?

 

Well the biggest question with the affair is how I can not have it affect my relationship with my STBXW long-term. She wants to remain friends and I can see that value for the kids. But the truth is I have lost an incredible amount of respect for her over this and I don't see how I can be friends with someone I don't respect.

 

I guess the bottom line is that just ending the marriage is incredibly hurtful but at least could be done in a graceful manner. But to have an affair as well is beyond doubt the most hurtful, inconsiderate, mean-spirited act anyone has ever done to me. For that to be done to me by someone whom I trusted with my life takes it to an indescribable level. I have a really hard time understanding how or why I would ever forgive or remain friends with such a person.

[Ronni_W]

Who said anything about anger and veneanance? I could just archive the pertinent emails and let the kids read

<sigh> Your MOTIVE for showing "pertinent emails" is pure anger and vengeance.

 

You said it yourself: you want them to know that their mother is a family-destroying, adulterous, failure. Perhaps also a liar with no morals who does not deserve respect. That is your anger. Passing all of these "truthful facts" on to her daughters, is your vengeance.

 

Thus also, and with due respect, pretending that your motive is really just to help them not repeat history is deception and BS intended only to justify your own angry and vengeful actions, should you decide to take them.

 

YOU said everything about anger and vengeance that needed to be said, really.

 

Besides. Your girls will grow up to do whatever it is that they will do. You do not have the extent of power over it that you may think you do. You need only consider your own life in context of your own parents' dreams and desires for you.

Consider that there are values the same, and values different. They could not control ALL of it; they could only influence some of it. And then more through what they role-modeled for you...and not so much by bad-mouthing others.

 

...beyond doubt the most hurtful, inconsiderate, mean-spirited act anyone has ever done to me. For that to be done to me by someone whom I trusted with my life takes it to an indescribable level.

Well, NOW we are getting somewhere!!!

Yes, absolutely. You have a LOT of healing to do. I noticed that you have rejected personal counseling for the moment, as you are looking at it in terms of 'how will it help me get what I want about my marriage?'

 

It won't help you with that, of course. You marriage really seems as the chapter is closed. BUT. When you are ready, personal counseling can be incredibly helpful in coping with the crappy loop of emotions -- betrayal, rejection, anger, abandonment, anger, fear, sadness, betrayal, anger, guilt, rejection, anger.

 

The big thing is to release these feelings OUTSIDE of your relationship with the kids. Using a professional is also a good idea so that you don't end up depleting your very kind and well-meaning friends and family members.

But you can as easily take kick-boxing classes or whatever else helps you get it out safely and without harming your kids & other loved ones.

 

You are not obligated to remain "friends" with your ex. There is a difference between that and treating her with civility and politeness -- kind of how you treat your dentist or a very nice & good waitress.

 

It really is just the open hostility and hatred from which it is your responsibility to shield your kids.

 

For me, there is also a difference between feeling respect and acting in a respectful manner. Respect is always good to role-model. But if you can't manage that, then civility and politeness will cover it, in any event -- you still will not be openly hostile and hateful.

 

You know what I just figured out? You are going to be just fine, and your kids will thrive because you really do have a lot of love and concern for their well-being! And that is kinda nice, ain't it?

[n9688m]

You are not obligated to remain "friends" with your ex. There is a difference between that and treating her with civility and politeness -- kind of how you treat your dentist or a very nice & good waitress.

 

But I wouldn't show that civility to a dentist or waitress who did something to knowingly cause me such pain.

 

That said, I hear what you are saying... probably I need time to get some perspective. Thanks - sorry for me to vent so much.

[Ronni_W]

probably I need time to get some perspective.

Hey, no prob about the venting...that's why the Creator created LoveShack!

 

I hope you won't mind but...here is your perspective: "I am doing this for my girls. I am being civil for my girls. I am being polite for my girls. I am cooperating about my girls' lives, education, entertainment and hobbies, for my girls. I am being the best co-parent I know how to be, for my girls. When it comes to my girls, I really don't care what my ex does or doesn't do - I just don't give a crap about that, when it comes to my girls."

 

What more perspective is there that will satisfy you, about this particular part of things? About the part that is SPECIFIC to you helping to meet your girls' needs, and making their lives as easy and happy as is possible under the circumstances?

 

Your intention and goal is NOT to "give to" the ex but to "do for" the girls. The girls are 100% the big winners and greatest beneficiaries...and you just cannot focus on the fact that it seems like the ex is also benefiting.

 

You cannot have it both ways. If you want to be a good Dad...then you just must get over the fact that you will also have to behave properly around Mom. There are no options AFTER you choose "good Dad" for your role.

 

Best of luck.

[Melovator]

Put your kids first, as hard as is it to do while you're still in pain and shock. A year after my separation from my son's father I am very glad that I decided not to be like my mother, to not let bitterness and anger grow inside me and fester like a boil until it explodes. That I have for the large part (not all the time- I'm nowhere near perfect!) kept my interactions with my ex polite and have respected him as my co-parent, even if I find it really difficult to respect him as my ex.

 

My son loves his father, your kids love their mother. As a child of divorce I have lived through the sh*t parents can heap upon their children and let me tell you this- any criticism of their mother your children will take as criticism of themselves - even if you don't mean it that way, they will take it personally. (BTW if you don't believe me pick up any number of books about children and divorce)

 

I have lots of friends whose parents divorced when they were kids, and plenty of those marriages ended because of an affair (including my parents- my dad left my mother for her best friend, my step mother who has now passed). In talking about our experiences, we all say similar things, as children the one who had the affair WAS the bad guy... for a long while, but in situations where the other parent couldn't get over it, couldn't move on past the bitterness and the anger- well now we're adults, and especially now we're all having children of our own, that's the parent we have less respect for.

 

When my son one day asks why I'm not with his father, he'll be given age appropriate answers "some mummies and daddies don't live together" etc etc, but when he's an adult and wants to ask the question, I'm going to give my ex first crack at providing the answer, hopefully he'll have grown somewhat as a person by this time and won't still be justifying and excusing his behaviour. But even if he does I plan to SHOW my son as he grows what relationships are about, that trust, honesty and respect are essential requirements, how do I plan to do that? By valuing those qualities in myself and living my life accordingly.

 

My life is not about my ex anymore, for me to 'feed' feelings of hurt and anger (and you do have to keep feeding them to maintain them) is a waste of my life (and my son's too) on someone who doesn't deserve it.

 

Your STBXW does not deserve to be the focus of your feelings- negative as well as positive- why should she continue to receive your emotional energy and time? And for as long as you feed your negative emotions you are still emotionally investing in her, making her more important than she should be anymore. Why waste your energy? And more importantly why risk losing the respect of your children when as adults all they can see is that you're stuck in the past? Just my opinion...

[n9688m]

Melovagtor and Ronni - thank you. That is excellent perspective.

 

I suppose that all makes sense. But it also means there is no "justice" if you will. She sleeps around, she gets tons of our assets in the divorce, and she gets equal respect from the kids in the long-run.

 

So basically there's no consequence at all for her to have had the affair? That hardly seems right.

[Ronni_W]

Oh, there definitely is a consequence, n9688m. Just because you can't see it right now, don't for one second believe that there is no consequence. And even if you never see it, don't for one second doubt that there is a consequence.

 

Rest assured and sleep easy. There is a consequence.

 

The "misguided thinking" is that you are supposed to see and/or be part of her consequence. That is not so.

 

It will be Right and Just. But the how and where and when of it is not for you to ponder nor be privy to.

 

Rest assured and sleep easy. It will be Right and Just.

 

For her...and for you...and for me.

[Melovator]

Melovagtor and Ronni - thank you. That is excellent perspective.

 

I suppose that all makes sense. But it also means there is no "justice" if you will. She sleeps around, she gets tons of our assets in the divorce, and she gets equal respect from the kids in the long-run.

 

So basically there's no consequence at all for her to have had the affair? That hardly seems right.

 

Equal respect?

That's a tough one... I can respect from my own experience what my mother went through. What I cannot respect is the way she handled it. Nor do I respect the way my father handled it and in some ways even now if him and I are talking about her (recent family dramas!) I don't like it if he makes a joke or says something critical about her, even if its something I've said/ thought about her myself. As strange as it sounds I feel he has no right to do so. It's the ONLY situation in which I get... protective? of my crazy mother.

 

One my oldest friend's mother's had the same thing happen to her as my mother, she didn't get lost in bitterness. She got on with her life. She is a lovely, gracious and kind woman with four grown children who all love and adore her. She never speaks of her ex badly, her kids have all drawn their own conclusions from their father's behaviour. Your children will do the same, in time as they grow and get older.

 

There will be consequences for her actions, but that's her business not yours, her millstone to carry. But 'justice'? How could the scales be balanced? Nothing that happens to my ex or yours will make what they did right. No act of karma will make you really feel better about what has happened, it won't remove your pain or heal or cure you of your emotional hurts...

 

For me its about how I want to see myself, the person I want to be and the person I want my son to be. The only one in charge of my thoughts, my emotions and my life is myself, no one else. To be like my mother, and to keep blaming my ex for the state of my life and waiting for bad things to happen to him before I can feel happy is to somehow imply that he's in charge of my life, thoughts and emotions. Quite frankly this is not acceptable as an option for me.

 

That's just how I see it- Why give her power over you?

[n9688m]

That's just how I see it- Why give her power over you?

 

I will ponder that - that may be a good way to bring closure to this. Thank you.

 

Of course complicating this is that for now we remain living together semi-married until she can arrange for a home satisfactory for our kids when she is with them half-time. And of course we are now opponents in a divorce action. I suspect it will be a whole lot easier to disconnect when she moves out and the legal issues are resolved.

[TrustInYourself]

I will ponder that - that may be a good way to bring closure to this. Thank you.

 

Of course complicating this is that for now we remain living together semi-married until she can arrange for a home satisfactory for our kids when she is with them half-time. And of course we are now opponents in a divorce action. I suspect it will be a whole lot easier to disconnect when she moves out and the legal issues are resolved.

 

It's strange how after you lose trust in someone how they can become a total stranger. Have you communicated with the STBXW about the situation any? What was your perspective on her responses? I'm trying to gather whether or not I should bring up with my wife who moved out on me, how I am feeling. I'm pretty angry and negative atm. I'm not sure I'm in the right mind to communicate in a productive fashion.

[n9688m]

It's strange how after you lose trust in someone how they can become a total stranger. Have you communicated with the STBXW about the situation any? What was your perspective on her responses?

 

My perspective is that her capacity for delusion and deceipt is extraordinary. I can do nothing right and she can do no wrong.

 

According to her, not only was the affair my fault for ignoring her needs, but also she had the affair to help our marriage since she was hoping to stay together with me if she were happier.

 

If I express my anger to her over her behavior she has little sympathy because she says she was angry with me for 14 years. (Then why did she have 2 children with me? And why did she have sex with me 3 times per week for over a decade? And why did she tell me she loved me at least twice per day?)

 

If I express concern that she never communicated her feelings with me, that too becomes my fault for not listening.

 

I thought maybe I would get a shred of sympathy from her for the 4 hours of general anesthesia I endured this week in order to reverse the vasectomy she encouraged me to have last year. Nope - I have no right to be angry. Instead I should be glad to have gone through the vasectomy and then reversal because of an incidental medical condition which was diagnosed in this process.

 

So there is little accomplished by my sharing my emotions with her - whatever I say or do gets turned around at me. It is all my fault.