Proof that God exists (for agnostics/athiests)

[andysw]

You do realize that bats can actually see very well, don't you? Look it up sometime.

I mean, it seems like you just blindly believe anything people tell you.....

 

It doesn't matter if it's not a bat. What matters is how animals perceive the world as if it's really all that they're seeing. Cats and dogs are conidered as colour blind but really they can see some colours. So their perspective of the world is that everything is only the colour they capable seeing. Similiar to how we humans perceive time in the best of our ability

Edited April 4, 2008 by andysw

[annieo]

I don't understand why a religious person needs proof. It sounds like doubting Thomas to me, needing to see the risen Christ and touch the wounds before he believed.

I have proof that gravity exists (I am not floating out into space). But my, well not faith, but intuitive inkling, that there may be a god cannot be measured by any scientific means that I know of. I don't need proof, and I feel no desire to try to convince anyone to believe what I believe. Why do so many religious types feel this need?

[PinkKittyKat]

It doesn't matter if it's not a bat. What matters is how animals perceive the world as if it's really all that they're seeing. Cats and dogs are conidered as colour blind but really they can see some colours. So their perspective of the world is that everything is only the colour they capable seeing. Similiar to how we humans perceive time in the best of our ability

 

So you are trying to convince people of something that we cannot perceive?

At any rate, you have just made up a presupposition about time, and are now "disproving" it.

 

You can set up and knock down as many strawmen as you like, my friend, you won't be convincing anyone who simply doesn't believe in any deities, much less your own personal one.

[andysw]

I don't understand why a religious person needs proof. It sounds like doubting Thomas to me, needing to see the risen Christ and touch the wounds before he believed.

I have proof that gravity exists (I am not floating out into space). But my, well not faith, but intuitive inkling, that there may be a god cannot be measured by any scientific means that I know of. I don't need proof, and I feel no desire to try to convince anyone to believe what I believe. Why do so many religious types feel this need?

 

To us christians it is partly our responsibility to get the lost saved.

[PinkKittyKat]

To us christians it is partly our responsibility to get the lost saved.

 

Then you'd better come up with some actual proof, quick!

[andysw]

So you are trying to convince people of something that we cannot perceive?

At any rate, you have just made up a presupposition about time, and are now "disproving" it.

 

You can set up and knock down as many strawmen as you like, my friend, you won't be convincing anyone who simply doesn't believe in any deities, much less your own personal one.

 

Remember that time never always existed before the universe.

[disgracian]

Another question, could there be an infinite amount of time before right now? No, because we would never of reached this moment of time.

You have unwittingly argued your own god out of existence here. There cannot be an infinite amount of time because then we could not get to where we are, so the universe had to have been created at some point and not eternally existent, right?

 

Except that Christianity claims that God is eternal, and has always existed. Therefore, God falls into the same abyss that the eternal universe does, namely: if God has always existed, then there would have been an infinite amount of time before He decided to create the universe and, according to your logic, this can never happen.

 

By your own reasoning, our very existence disproves your God.

 

DISGRACIAN WINS!!! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

[PinkKittyKat]

You have unwittingly argued your own god out of existence here. There cannot be an infinite amount of time because then we could not get to where we are, so the universe had to have been created at some point and not eternally existent, right?

 

Except that Christianity claims that God is eternal, and has always existed. Therefore, God falls into the same abyss that the eternal universe does, namely: if God has always existed, then there would have been an infinite amount of time before He decided to create the universe and, according to your logic, this can never happen.

 

By your own reasoning, our very existence disproves your God.

 

DISGRACIAN WINS!!! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

 

*PinkKittyKat golf claps*

 

Remember that time never always existed before the universe.

 

According to who? Please state some valid sources.

[sally4sara]

Then you'd better come up with some actual proof, quick!

 

Wow girl! Do you know OP in real life? He must have done something horrible by you once to make you this mad!

I don't disagree with your points, but you won't reach many people with them using so much scorn. Just sayin......

[PinkKittyKat]

Wow girl! Do you know OP in real life? He must have done something horrible by you once to make you this mad!

I don't disagree with your points, but you won't reach many people with them using so much scorn. Just sayin......

 

I'm not mad, just damn amused. He came in here citing absolute PROOF that god exists, and began with a false presupposition. That he was then going to use as the base for his so-called "proof".

 

Then he started citing sources as "many scientists" and "any grade 1-2 textbook".

 

I avoid all the religious discussions on here, but this is just too ridiculous. I feel scorn is deserved. LOL

[andysw]

You have unwittingly argued your own god out of existence here. There cannot be an infinite amount of time because then we could not get to where we are, so the universe had to have been created at some point and not eternally existent, right?

 

Except that Christianity claims that God is eternal, and has always existed. Therefore, God falls into the same abyss that the eternal universe does, namely: if God has always existed, then there would have been an infinite amount of time before He decided to create the universe and, according to your logic, this can never happen.

 

By your own reasoning, our very existence disproves your God.

 

DISGRACIAN WINS!!! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

 

If you think again, I never claimed that there was an infinite amount of time before right now. So, yes, like you said the universe must've had a beginning.

 

You only based your point about God from time's point of view within the universe. But God is outside of time so he's not bound by mathematical and physical limitations. He is eternal. The very definition of eternal is no beginning and no end. God created the universe. He created time with no time.

 

Lets say the universe had a beginning, what caused the universe to exist? Lets say the big bang or something else created the universe, but what caused the cause? What caused the cause of the cause, etc. This can go on forever and forever until I repeat this an infinite (never ending) amount of times. So where does tis lead us?

Edited April 4, 2008 by andysw

[PinkKittyKat]

If you think again, I never claimed that there was an infinite amount of time before right now. So, yes, like you said the universe must've had a beginning.

 

You only based your point about God from time's point of view within the universe. But God is outside of time so he's not bound by mathematical and physical limitations. He is eternal. The very definition of eternal is no beginning and no end. God created the universe. He created time with no time.

 

Lets say the universe had a beginning, what caused the universe to exist? Lets say the big bang or something else created the universe, but what caused the cause? What caused the cause of the cause, etc. This can go on forever and forever until I repeat this an infinite (never ending) amount of times. So where does tis lead us?

 

If you can accept your deity as eternal, why can you not accept the universe as eternal/infinite?

[sally4sara]

I'm not mad, just damn amused. He came in here citing absolute PROOF that god exists, and began with a false presupposition. That he was then going to use as the base for his so-called "proof".

 

Then he started citing sources as "many scientists" and "any grade 1-2 textbook".

 

I avoid all the religious discussions on here, but this is just too ridiculous. I feel scorn is deserved. LOL

 

Would it help if you knew he had other posts where he struggles with his faith and his place in his congregation? I agree, he needs to further educate himself before making posts stating his thoughts in a factual format. But it is his internal struggle between what he has been taught in his church and home and how his growing knowledge combined with the hypocrisy he sees in his fellow church goers that cause him to do this. He wants to believe the whole thing so he makes posts like this to convince himself (not you) but he is not convinced so then he makes a post about how what he has been taught isn't working for him the way he was told it would.

One day, he might agree with everything you've said, but you won't convince him to do so with scorn any more than his misguided attempt to convince himself all the dogma is true will find him as one with his god.

[Rooster_DAR]

Well I think the widely accepted theory is that time did not always exist, at least in our dimension. Einstein predicted this and Hubble provided evidence. But does that necessarily mean that time did not exist does it?

 

Perhaps time in three dimensions is quite different that a fourth or larger dimension, and if so can it still be construed as time. Quantum Mechanics has provided a possible theory of overlapping dimensions where one dimension accidentally collided with another and BOOM!, another universe was created.

 

Who knows?

[PinkKittyKat]

Would it help if you knew he had other posts where he struggles with his faith and his place in his congregation? I agree, he needs to further educate himself before making posts stating his thoughts in a factual format. But it is his internal struggle between what he has been taught in his church and home and how his growing knowledge combined with the hypocrisy he sees in his fellow follows that cause him to do this. He wants to believe the whole thing so he makes posts like this to convince himself (not you) but he is not convinced so then he makes a post about how what he has been taught isn't working for him the way he was told it would.

One day, he might agree with everything you've said, but you won't convince him to do so with scorn any more than his misguided attempt to convince himself all the dogma is true will find him as one with his god.

 

Well, I didn't look at any of his other threads. Regardless of what HE is going through(which I was unaware of) he posted this thread with the title "Proof that god exists(for atheists/agnostics)" and proceeded to try and convince people. If he's trying to convince himself it is sure coming off as trying to convince others instead. Especially when he said "To us christians it is partly our responsibility to get the lost saved."

 

It was a ridiculous argument, and I am pointing out the flaws in it.

[disgracian]

You only based your point about God from time's point of view within the universe. But God is outside of time so he's not bound by mathematical and physical limitations.

Can you explain what this even means rather than just wielding it like a convenient catchphrase?

Lets say the universe had a beginning, what caused the universe to exist? Lets say the big bang or something else created the universe, but what caused the cause? What caused the cause of the cause, etc. This can go on forever and forever until I repeat this an infinite (never ending) amount of times. So where does tis lead us?

You're doing it again. You're happy to play the infinite regress game right up until it lines up your god in its headlights and ploughs right through him, continuing onwards forever, at which point you will insist that God does a sidesteps causality with the old "existing outside of time" parlour trick. If you're going to use the causality argument, you can't just abandon it again when its implications inconveniently dispute the point you're trying to make.

 

By doing this, you're being inconsistent in your logic, and evading this admission by claiming that logic just doesn't apply to God (which, in a manner of speaking, is correct).

 

God exists outside time, and causality. While we're at it, He exists outside of physics, logic and reason. Heck, we may as well just have a moment of brutal honesty with ourselves and admit that, along with everything else, He exists outside of reality as well.

 

Cheers,

D.

[annieo]

.

Heck, we may as well just have a moment of brutal honesty with ourselves and admit that, along with everything else, He exists outside of reality as well.

 

Cheers,

D.

OK I'm not a god squader, but I do allow for the possibility (along with a lot of other things I can neither prove or disprove). And in your last post, you had me until that last comment.

The reality you speak of is the reality that is observable by us with our five senses. Do you not allow for the possibility that our 5 senses might not be able to perceive all?

Our eyes cannot see the vibration of indigo in the spectrum. Don't have the right cones/rods/or other equiptment for this, but it exists. I cannot hear sounds that are very high pitched, but this does not mean that they aren't there. Dogs hear them, although I see the flaw in this line of reasoning in that I can make a high pitched noise, not hear it with my ears, but see a dog tilt it's head and prick up its ears.

How about "He exists outside of my perceivable reality". A little more accurate, perhaps.

[witabix]

Well, lets take it this way, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, so, has energy always existed? No, because we already determined that time hadn't always existed, and neither can energy.

 

You did not read my post, or you did not understand it, which is it?

[witabix]

Just to clear what you just said I did not refer this from the bible because the bible does not directly say that time hadn't always existed. Even scientists agree that before the universe there was nothing (no time, etc).

 

I don't just speak from a religious point of view I speak in both views at once.

 

If you find a science textbook for grade 1 - 2 and turn to the page where it talks about space you'll notice that it says that before the universe existed there was literally nothing (wow, that's deep) and then suddenly everything came out form a big poof.

 

So, okay, I explained how it's impossible the universe could've existed from literally nothing, now it's someone's turn to prove my explanation wrong.

 

 

Have you ever read or studied a book on physics, I am sorry but I am losing patience with you here. YOU explained what precisely? That its impossible that the universe existed form nothing... who in heck ever said that it came from nothing...........oh wait, the Bible did, didn't it?

 

Take another look my friend.

[witabix]

Well, witbix only pointed out the concept of time based on how we (humans) perceive it. Just because we understand time from our perspective doesn't necessarily mean it applies to everything. Bats can't see very well and that's how they perceive the world as if what the world really look like.

 

andysw, now you are talking baloney, who else is there to percieve it, what other way do you percieve time that makes your point?

[witabix]

I was just stating that even textbooks of that level teaches children that anything can be created from nothing with no back reasoning. Don't think that I use grade 1 textbooks for my hard reasonings in advance, oh man lol:lmao:

 

This has got to be a joke right?

 

Which physics textbook, and I want the title, author and ISBN number of the physics book that teaches that anything can be made from nothing...I really do.

 

Your hard reasoning appears to stem from ignornce of the scientific and philosophical facts.

[witabix]

It doesn't matter if it's not a bat. What matters is how animals perceive the world as if it's really all that they're seeing. Cats and dogs are conidered as colour blind but really they can see some colours. So their perspective of the world is that everything is only the colour they capable seeing. Similiar to how we humans perceive time in the best of our ability

 

Oh my good grief, you really do not understand the basic principles. You have NO clue as to what you are talking about, and it is unusual for me to say this, but you are possibly the most ignorant person I have come across.

 

You are equating the inability of animals to see colour with time.....and what time is....I am in total disbelief.

[witabix]

To us christians it is partly our responsibility to get the lost saved.

 

That IS something I respect, but not by misunderstanding science.

[witabix]

If you think again, I never claimed that there was an infinite amount of time before right now. So, yes, like you said the universe must've had a beginning.

 

You only based your point about God from time's point of view within the universe. But God is outside of time so he's not bound by mathematical and physical limitations. He is eternal. The very definition of eternal is no beginning and no end. God created the universe. He created time with no time.

 

Lets say the universe had a beginning, what caused the universe to exist? Lets say the big bang or something else created the universe, but what caused the cause? What caused the cause of the cause, etc. This can go on forever and forever until I repeat this an infinite (never ending) amount of times. So where does tis lead us?

 

 

Again you talk about infinty, with no understanding of infinty, have you ever considered it in a rational sense. Have you ever been asked to explain countable infinty vs uncountable infinty, do you even understand the concept.

 

This kind of argument is the reason why so many people are so dismissive of religious people. You cannot convince me in a scientific fashion, that your god exists.

 

I however will turn the question on you.

 

Why do people suffer so much on this earth?

 

Think of of the starving, think of the sick, think of the disenfrachised, think of the people that suffer for no good reason. If you believe in god then you have to accept that this is your gods doing. They have done nothing to deserve this. But god moves in mysterious ways his miracle to perform.

 

Well, you know what andy, it is your god that makes people suffer like this, not mine. I have no god, and I have no master.

 

You, nor anyone else will eve be able to use science to PROVE that god exists, and it is this kind of illusion of grandeur that annoys me most.

 

If you believe, fine, but do not attempt to use science you do not understand to make your deist point.

[annieo]

 

I however will turn the question on you.

 

Why do people suffer so much on this earth?

 

Think of of the starving, think of the sick, think of the disenfrachised, think of the people that suffer for no good reason. If you believe in god then you have to accept that this is your gods doing. They have done nothing to deserve this. But god moves in mysterious ways his miracle to perform.

 

Can't help myself, going to play devil's advocate and introduce a new religious strand. KARMA, anyone? I think the christians are going to have a hay day with this, if they even know what it means.

 

I'm just throwing this out there, I am not a hindu or a buddhist - I'm beginning to believe that I don't believe in anything, or anyone.