Dealing with her past?

[AAlike]

Don't get me wrong, she had all the confidence in herself in the world. There was one night when I was talking to her and I think she thought I was breaking it off with her cause of everything so she was going to take the initative and end it before me to keep from being hurt more. That's when she said people walk out on her. I'm not sure what all that was about but I let her know I wasn't going anywhere and that I wanted to be with her, which I do. She's a confident person, she's just afraid to wholly open up cause of her past first love stepped all over her when she did love him. She scared of that happeneing again.

 

I really hope I can get my mind right, kill this negative inner voice and just enjoy her company and the time I spend with her. Cause your right, I am really into this girl and she is really into me. Just last night I noticed how much more open she is. Being herself, just silly dancing around my house and having fun. Meanwhile I have all this crap in my head and didn't want to even mention it cause I seen the happy look on her face. I will find a way to get over this. I appreciate you sharing your view with me and hopefully I can get to that same viewpoint soon.

 

you'll get there man, don't worry.

 

i'll leave you with one more story. probably about four or five years ago, a few friends of mine lived together in this bachelor pad. One of them (call him Guy A) started dating this girl very briefly, although I don't think that there was much there between them other than some brief physical attraction. However, Guy B from the same house and her had a lot more in common, which we all, including Guy A, noticed, and sure enough after about a month she was coming over fairly obviously to hang out with Guy B. finally guy A and him had a talk and guy A told him that he was 100% cool with him dating her. I thought that this was a little weird at the time, but whatever.

 

So guy B and her dated for a good three months or so but it was clear that their flame was burning out as they realized that similar music tastes and clothing styles did not a relationship make. then Guy C, another friend of ours, moved in to the same place. the girl and guy C became friends, and after the emminent breakup of guy B and her, she stayed in touch with Guy C...eventually starting to date him seriously and getting engaged to him a year later.

 

at the time I thought that this was ludicrous - how in the WORLD could guy C be with a girl that two other guys that he knew had been with? I had to know, so one day after a few beers I just straight up asked him, and he said that it never really bothered him, that he didn't really look at sex as anything to be ashamed of, and to him its preferrable to two strangers (I was completely of the opposite mentality at the time). I figured that there was no way that the relationship would last, eventually the weirdness of the situation would culminate into jealousy and they'd all hate each other.

 

well, fast forward a few years...A, B and C are still all great friends, B was the best man in C's wedding, C is still married to the girl, B is also married now and their wives are great friends, and being a very observant outsider I can say with authority that there is no tension when hanging out with any of them in any sort of combination. and me and my other friends who were aware of the whole situation don't think about it anymore and don't judge the guys or her, as they all seem 100% content!

 

I think that it should be obvious why I'm telling you this story, which is 100% true by the way.

[Siphon9a]

What I mean is that most people that are having casual sex would gladly trade their one-night stands or FWB's or threesomes or whatever other things that you don't want to hear about for a emotionally and sexually fulfilling relationship any day of the week, and the ones that wouldn't probably haven't been in such a relationship.

 

I see what your saying there. That I can completely understand and makes sense.

[Siphon9a]

you'll get there man, don't worry.

 

i'll leave you with one more story. probably about four or five years ago, a few friends of mine lived together in this bachelor pad. One of them (call him Guy A) started dating this girl very briefly, although I don't think that there was much there between them other than some brief physical attraction. However, Guy B from the same house and her had a lot more in common, which we all, including Guy A, noticed, and sure enough after about a month she was coming over fairly obviously to hang out with Guy B. finally guy A and him had a talk and guy A told him that he was 100% cool with him dating her. I thought that this was a little weird at the time, but whatever.

 

So guy B and her dated for a good three months or so but it was clear that their flame was burning out as they realized that similar music tastes and clothing styles did not a relationship make. then Guy C, another friend of ours, moved in to the same place. the girl and guy C became friends, and after the emminent breakup of guy B and her, she stayed in touch with Guy C...eventually starting to date him seriously and getting engaged to him a year later.

 

at the time I thought that this was ludicrous - how in the WORLD could guy C be with a girl that two other guys that he knew had been with? I had to know, so one day after a few beers I just straight up asked him, and he said that it never really bothered him, that he didn't really look at sex as anything to be ashamed of, and to him its preferrable to two strangers (I was completely of the opposite mentality at the time). I figured that there was no way that the relationship would last, eventually the weirdness of the situation would culminate into jealousy and they'd all hate each other.

 

well, fast forward a few years...A, B and C are still all great friends, B was the best man in C's wedding, C is still married to the girl, B is also married now and their wives are great friends, and being a very observant outsider I can say with authority that there is no tension when hanging out with any of them in any sort of combination. and me and my other friends who were aware of the whole situation don't think about it anymore and don't judge the guys or her, as they all seem 100% content!

 

I think that it should be obvious why I'm telling you this story, which is 100% true by the way.

 

 

This...this is alot like my situation in some aspects. And I like you at that time would have thought the exact same thing. I've always worried about things too much. I know I should just forget all of this mess and have a great relationship with a girl that wants to be with me. But yet I sit here typing on my lunch break with my own irrationally emotion-charged thoughts, trying to validate the world. What got you over this kind of mindset. You obviously no longer seem to worry over such trivial things. And I'm obviously spending waaayyy to much time dwelling on such things. Funny thing is some of the posters on this thread, I was so much alike in the thought of things like this. As I did get a little older I wasn't as bad but it's still there. I guess I'm just trying to push through it and move on. Maybe if I had done those sorts of things in my past with random girls, I wouldn't be such a prude about it.

[AAlike]

This...this is alot like my situation in some aspects. And I like you at that time would have thought the exact same thing. I've always worried about things too much. I know I should just forget all of this mess and have a great relationship with a girl that wants to be with me. But yet I sit here typing on my lunch break with my own irrationally emotion-charged thoughts, trying to validate the world. What got you over this kind of mindset. You obviously no longer seem to worry over such trivial things. And I'm obviously spending waaayyy to much time dwelling on such things. Funny thing is some of the posters on this thread, I was so much alike in the thought of things like this. As I did get a little older I wasn't as bad but it's still there. I guess I'm just trying to push through it and move on. Maybe if I had done those sorts of things in my past with random girls, I wouldn't be such a prude about it.

 

Siphon, I am 100% down with discussing this further - I am sending you a PM.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra - i'm surprised it took you this long to chime in!

 

Hmmm... I've been a bit busy lately.

 

Besides my attraction to the topic at hand is typically to defend a guy who is having trouble dealing with his feelings on this. The vast majority just say... "shut up and get over it". Which isn't fair or helpful.

 

I didn't say anything about taking responsibility, I said that they shouldn't be scrutinized any more than the guys just because they are thought of the "gatekeeper" or whatever (which, by the way, is a ridiculous notion, it takes two consenting adults to have sex).

do you believe that if a single man and woman decide to have consentual sex outside of a relationship that, because the male is generally considered to be the "pursuer", that the woman is devaluing herself by consenting and should therefore face some sort of judgement or consequences? otherwise, what is there to take responsibility for?

 

It is a ridiculous notion! However, it's essentially how the law is practiced. Face it... any man over the age of 18 claiming to have been date raped by a woman would get straight laughed out of court. Especially if he claimed to be too drunk to consent.

 

So, that's the society we have to work with.

 

In my view... it doesn't matter who the pursuer is/was.

 

wow. i can buy that a guy might be intimidated by an experienced girl due to insecurities, sure - but a girl that has sex with a couple of guys has less intrinsic "value" than one who doesn't?

 

I guess I just don't understand this idea of "sex as currency" or whatever, or the notion that we should be rating women on some sort of sliding scale, or that I should give two sh*ts about whether some other guy considered my girlfriend "valuable" at any point. all that should matter to me is that she didn't feel like she was devaluing herself, which she didn't, and that we value each other now, which we do. I haven't had an above average amount of casual sex, but I can say that at no point did I feel a pronounced lack of respect towards the girls when it has happened.

 

Well, you need to understand that Rank and Hierarchy is an ingrained social instinct. That's where the "value" system comes from.

 

I didn't make it up... it's something that we all have to deal with. I have an innate drive to be an Alpha type male, especially at my age.

 

I think you need to expound on what sex without love is! Sex minus love... seems dehumanizing and devaluing in my opinion. Like buying a prostitute only free.

 

if you're looking to the sexual act itself to make you feel special, then i don't think that you're going to ever sustain a relationship. sex itself is not unique, it's one of the most basic human functions. i've had sex with just over 20 women (most were girlfriends, I've been sexually active for fifteen years, so i don't feel that's very many, especially considering the extent of my social life and the opportunities that accompany that, but whatever), and I can DEFINITELY without a doubt say that this is special. and so can she, and I definitely believe her. and in no way do either of our pasts dilute anything.

 

Well, it's like this. I value football, therefore feeling special at football is important to me. I value sex... therefore the same applies.

 

In my personal experience, my friends who have dated the high number girls, have all run into major issues down the line. So while we can debate until we are blue in the face about the rightness or wrongness of casual sex. It's abundantly clear that the vast majority of women who engage in this behavior are doing so out of mental imbalances.

 

Listen in the end I always ask myself... does this behavior make biological sense.... and no women with huge numbers of lovers take a foolish risk.

 

you don't "rank and quantify" anything!

 

Sorry but I'm a "Show me the Money" type. Prove it or get out.

 

If you can't make your actions prove that I am more important than the last guy... I'm going to find someone who can.

 

so everyone is in their 20's as I had expected. I think that this has a lot to do with this manner of thinking - I don't think middle-aged people start "comparing numbers" early in their relationships, I think it's way easier to understand that people hit different stages in their lives when you are in later stages yourself. For instance, when my mom and stepdad got together, I don't imagine they had some conversation about each other's sexual histories (in fact, I know that they didn't) - hell, they were both divorced with kids, I think that it went without saying that they had both had some sex and made some mistakes!!

 

Actually the age grouping seems to be ridiculously close in this thread.

 

I'd say there is probably a hormonal reason behind part of these feelings. Probably has to do with testosterone, production of which drops as we age.

[Siphon9a]

Siphon, I am 100% down with discussing this further - I am sending you a PM.

 

I wish I could get into PM to read it. Since I'm a newbie I don't have rights to PM's yet. I guess your account has to be established for a period of time to activate PM's. I definitely do want to continue this cause I can see where your coming from, I just have a bit further to go> Any admins help a newbie out????

[AAlike]

I wish I could get into PM to read it. Since I'm a newbie I don't have rights to PM's yet. I guess your account has to be established for a period of time to activate PM's. I definitely do want to continue this cause I can see where your coming from, I just have a bit further to go> Any admins help a newbie out????

 

so i noticed. you can give me your e-mail address too.

[Siphon9a]

Hmmm... I've been a bit busy lately.

 

Besides my attraction to the topic at hand is typically to defend a guy who is having trouble dealing with his feelings on this. The vast majority just say... "shut up and get over it". Which isn't fair or helpful.

 

 

 

It is a ridiculous notion! However, it's essentially how the law is practiced. Face it... any man over the age of 18 claiming to have been date raped by a woman would get straight laughed out of court. Especially if he claimed to be too drunk to consent.

 

So, that's the society we have to work with.

 

In my view... it doesn't matter who the pursuer is/was.

 

 

 

Well, you need to understand that Rank and Hierarchy is an ingrained social instinct. That's where the "value" system comes from.

 

I didn't make it up... it's something that we all have to deal with. I have an innate drive to be an Alpha type male, especially at my age.

 

I think you need to expound on what sex without love is! Sex minus love... seems dehumanizing and devaluing in my opinion. Like buying a prostitute only free.

 

 

 

Well, it's like this. I value football, therefore feeling special at football is important to me. I value sex... therefore the same applies.

 

In my personal experience, my friends who have dated the high number girls, have all run into major issues down the line. So while we can debate until we are blue in the face about the rightness or wrongness of casual sex. It's abundantly clear that the vast majority of women who engage in this behavior are doing so out of mental imbalances.

 

Listen in the end I always ask myself... does this behavior make biological sense.... and no women with huge numbers of lovers take a foolish risk.

 

 

 

Sorry but I'm a "Show me the Money" type. Prove it or get out.

 

If you can't make your actions prove that I am more important than the last guy... I'm going to find someone who can.

 

 

 

Actually the age grouping seems to be ridiculously close in this thread.

 

I'd say there is probably a hormonal reason behind part of these feelings. Probably has to do with testosterone, production of which drops as we age.

 

Cobra, I see your side and viewpoints on alot of this. I understand why my SO did the things she did. The breakdown is in part what alot of posters have said in the stories and opinions I have heard.

 

Facts:

1st True love broke up with her over drugs and stippers

She was heartbroken and hurt, didn't think love was real

Looking to feel something in some way.

Admits she didn't want to have "stupid sex" and wanted one person

Was always crying and mentally and emotionally beat up over everything.

 

Given those situations, I can understand where there would be a mental imbalance or emotional imbalance at that given time. I've seen girls go through this all before. If I did indeed think in some way she was a slut or anything thereof I wouldn't have even bothered. She's a good person who went through a tough time in her life. We all deal with things in different ways. The thing is, she cares for me and I for her. I know for a fact she was a mess for awhile, and was always depressed. I knew her kind of at that time. She had been working on getting her life back together and not doing the things she was doing and moving on from that after she got over her first love. I believe her in this because I kind of knew her, but not what she had done. The pieces of the story fit and as obsessive compulsive as I am, if there was one part that didn't fit I would question it. But nevertheless I guess what I'm trying to say is I see your point in it all but for me I want to try and work through it cause in my eyes she's worth it. For all the others guys that were with her and didn't see what I see in her....well ****'em they missed out on an awesome person with a big heart who just wants to care for someone and wants someone to care for her.

[Siphon9a]

so i noticed. you can give me your e-mail address too.

Coming your way!

 

[email protected]

[AAlike]

Cobra, I see your side and viewpoints on alot of this. I understand why my SO did the things she did. The breakdown is in part what alot of posters have said in the stories and opinions I have heard.

 

Facts:

1st True love broke up with her over drugs and stippers

She was heartbroken and hurt, didn't think love was real

Looking to feel something in some way.

Admits she didn't want to have "stupid sex" and wanted one person

Was always crying and mentally and emotionally beat up over everything.

 

Given those situations, I can understand where there would be a mental imbalance or emotional imbalance at that given time. I've seen girls go through this all before. If I did indeed think in some way she was a slut or anything thereof I wouldn't have even bothered. She's a good person who went through a tough time in her life. We all deal with things in different ways. The thing is, she cares for me and I for her. I know for a fact she was a mess for awhile, and was always depressed. I knew her kind of at that time. She had been working on getting her life back together and not doing the things she was doing and moving on from that after she got over her first love. I believe her in this because I kind of knew her, but not what she had done. The pieces of the story fit and as obsessive compulsive as I am, if there was one part that didn't fit I would question it. But nevertheless I guess what I'm trying to say is I see your point in it all but for me I want to try and work through it cause in my eyes she's worth it. For all the others guys that were with her and didn't see what I see in her....well ****'em they missed out on an awesome person with a big heart who just wants to care for someone and wants someone to care for her.

 

I will send you an e-mail soon bro - however, one thing that I think should be said on the forum is that you seem to continually point out that she did this while going through a bad time - if you're going to get over it simply because of that fact justifying it, then you're not REALLY getting over it. truly getting over it will be when you realize that she doesn't NEED any justification for anything that she did before you were around, unless it was illegal or harmful.

[Siphon9a]

I will send you an e-mail soon bro - however, one thing that I think should be said on the forum is that you seem to continually point out that she did this while going through a bad time - if you're going to get over it simply because of that fact justifying it, then you're not REALLY getting over it. truly getting over it will be when you realize that she doesn't NEED any justification for anything that she did before you were around, unless it was illegal or harmful.

 

I see what your saying in that regard. She was free to make any choice she wanted as to how she lived and what she wanted to do to make herself happy at that time. I guess that thats the rationalization in me trying to find a reason for the actions. In the broader scope of things I guess it really shouldn't matter. But if I looked at the broader range of things I wouldn't have given any of this any thought at all. It's something I've got to work on.

[AAlike]

Hmmm... I've been a bit busy lately.

 

Besides my attraction to the topic at hand is typically to defend a guy who is having trouble dealing with his feelings on this. The vast majority just say... "shut up and get over it". Which isn't fair or helpful.

 

We are 100% in agreement there. There are a lot of sources that put those types of thoughts into our heads, some obvious and some subtle, and it's not always that easy to just undo that type of conditioning, as irrational and inherently sexist as it may be. However, I don't know that condoning this type of thought is helpful either.

 

It is a ridiculous notion! However, it's essentially how the law is practiced. Face it... any man over the age of 18 claiming to have been date raped by a woman would get straight laughed out of court. Especially if he claimed to be too drunk to consent.

 

So, that's the society we have to work with.

 

In my view... it doesn't matter who the pursuer is/was.

 

Fine, but those laws are only applied to and for non-consentual sex. and while I agree that those laws do shape perceptions on a very basic level, what I'm saying is that most sexual situations do not play out like that at all - these laws are only made to address extreme cases. this would imply that women are constantly on the defensive when it comes to sex and that men are the only ones with a sex "drive" per se. This is definitely NOT the case in reality, and I think that one of the main reasons that you see less women acting out on their sex drives in public is due to perceptions like this. I think that's why guys are generally surprised by their girlfriends' sex drives behind closed doors, and I also think that a lot of womens' casual experiences take place in situations that they feel that they have a lower risk of being judged. If you take away those perceptions, I think you see a lot more single women acting out on their sexuality. and I have a feeling that seeing men as pursuers is affecting your view whether you're realizing it or not.

 

Well, you need to understand that Rank and Hierarchy is an ingrained social instinct. That's where the "value" system comes from.

 

I didn't make it up... it's something that we all have to deal with. I have an innate drive to be an Alpha type male, especially at my age.

 

I think you need to expound on what sex without love is! Sex minus love... seems dehumanizing and devaluing in my opinion. Like buying a prostitute only free.

 

sure, I'm a competitive mf'er myself. but what exactly are you competing against in this scenario? The previous guys? I'd think that if the girl is staying with you that you've already won that competition. Her sexuality? That might be more of a valid point, and that may be at the root of the problem - guys are intimidated somewhat by a sexually assertive girl.

 

I guess I am referring to "sex without love" completely at face value - when you have sex with someone that you wouldn't necessarily say "I love you" to. it can be a friend, stranger, or even someone that you're in the early stages of dating. What separates this from soliciting a prostitute is that there is still an innate level of companionship and mutual desire that comes from this type of sex that does not come from a prostitute. granted, it's certainly on a smaller, more finite scale than sex with a girlfriend or wife - and if personally this would never intrigue you or would make you feel uncomfortable, that's totally fine, and plenty of people are in the same boat as you - but to imply that other people are "devalued" because they engage in it...I mean, your thoughts are completely your prerogative but in this day and age you're excluding a heck of a large portion of the population!

 

Let me ask you this - do you also have a set formula or parameters regarding a girl's sexual past that would cause you to immediately write them off as a potential girlfriend?

 

Well, it's like this. I value football, therefore feeling special at football is important to me. I value sex... therefore the same applies.

 

In my personal experience, my friends who have dated the high number girls, have all run into major issues down the line. So while we can debate until we are blue in the face about the rightness or wrongness of casual sex. It's abundantly clear that the vast majority of women who engage in this behavior are doing so out of mental imbalances.

 

Listen in the end I always ask myself... does this behavior make biological sense.... and no women with huge numbers of lovers take a foolish risk.

 

whoa - you mean women that engage in casual sex at all, or women with "huge" numbers? I mean, I think that anyone who's sleeping with hundreds of people or something like that probably has some mental issues, sure. but most of these types of discussions on here don't involve huge numbers or insane pasts - most of them involve a few isolated incidents, or running into one or two guys that a girl has slept with, or a crazy one-off night - basically things that are only considered abnormal because they don't directly correspond with the guy's past.

 

Sorry but I'm a "Show me the Money" type. Prove it or get out.

 

If you can't make your actions prove that I am more important than the last guy... I'm going to find someone who can.

 

i don't disagree with that at all either. but my girlfriend has had sex before me, both casual and within a loving relationship, and she has had no difficulty in conveying my importance in tons of ways.

 

Actually the age grouping seems to be ridiculously close in this thread.

 

I'd say there is probably a hormonal reason behind part of these feelings. Probably has to do with testosterone, production of which drops as we age.

 

interesting theory - yeah, I'd probably buy that to some extent, sure.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra, I see your side and viewpoints on alot of this. I understand why my SO did the things she did. The breakdown is in part what alot of posters have said in the stories and opinions I have heard.

 

 

Siphon,

 

Don't get me wrong bro... I'm just saying that what you feel is natural, and that lots of us guys have the same issue.

 

Fact is that your girl regrets it. Shows her brain is engaged. Really you only have two options... find a way to get over it, or break up and move on. Personally, it sounds like she is worth the effort, so my vote goes for work on it.

 

Is there anything that could make it easier on you?

[Siphon9a]

Siphon,

 

Don't get me wrong bro... I'm just saying that what you feel is natural, and that lots of us guys have the same issue.

 

Fact is that your girl regrets it. Shows her brain is engaged. Really you only have two options... find a way to get over it, or break up and move on. Personally, it sounds like she is worth the effort, so my vote goes for work on it.

 

Is there anything that could make it easier on you?

 

I think the only thing that will make it easier is time. I mean it doesn't help the fact that her FWB was a good friend of mine but I'm sure after a period of time, it won't matter to me at all. I mean I'm starting to realize that there are alot more important things to worry about. Not to say that it still doesn't come to my mind. I guess it boils down to this. If I wasn't so into this girl, I probably wouldn't care at all. I know all she wants is for me to stop worrying about it all and just focus on her and I together. As for whether or not she actually does regret or "not feel proud" of those things? Only she knows for sure. I would venture a guess that she doesn't even think about those things. I know I never think about the past girls I've slept with and the things I have done when I'm with her. Never even enters my mind. I have an ex that I'm friends with and although were not real close she does confide things to me as she recently broke up with her boyfriend after me. I just got to get it through my head that it just doesn't matter. People do things to meet the needs they feel are there. After talking with AAlike I'm starting to see there is a more broad scope to all of this than a short time period or incident. I mean, she's not cheating on me and really digs being around me. She's putting up with all this stupid **** I'm putting her through and hasn't just said to hell with it all, I'll find someone who will understand. I feel like with time all this will slowly pass. Luckily with my job and busy lifestyle, time goes by rather quickly sometimes! I will all work out like it's suppose to. Life always does.

[Cobra_X30]

We are 100% in agreement there. There are a lot of sources that put those types of thoughts into our heads, some obvious and some subtle, and it's not always that easy to just undo that type of conditioning, as irrational and inherently sexist as it may be. However, I don't know that condoning this type of thought is helpful either.

 

Nobody is going to really listen when they feel under attack.

 

Genki was a perfect example. Once they stopped jumping on him, he opened up and started working through things.

 

Fine, but those laws are only applied to and for non-consentual sex. and while I agree that those laws do shape perceptions on a very basic level, what I'm saying is that most sexual situations do not play out like that at all - these laws are only made to address extreme cases. this would imply that women are constantly on the defensive when it comes to sex and that men are the only ones with a sex "drive" per se. This is definitely NOT the case in reality, and I think that one of the main reasons that you see less women acting out on their sex drives in public is due to perceptions like this. I think that's why guys are generally surprised by their girlfriends' sex drives behind closed doors, and I also think that a lot of womens' casual experiences take place in situations that they feel that they have a lower risk of being judged. If you take away those perceptions, I think you see a lot more single women acting out on their sexuality. and I have a feeling that seeing men as pursuers is affecting your view whether you're realizing it or not.

 

Our view on extreme cases is just a magnification of our societal view of every day life.

 

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of my gender bias? I fully admit to it. I think that men and women are different... and that we have different roles to play... and that is natural. See, equal does not mean the exact same. People can be different and still be equal.

 

I don't think we should encourage sport sex. Not until we understand it's affects on human psychology better, and eliminate STD's.

 

sure, I'm a competitive mf'er myself. but what exactly are you competing against in this scenario? The previous guys? I'd think that if the girl is staying with you that you've already won that competition. Her sexuality? That might be more of a valid point, and that may be at the root of the problem - guys are intimidated somewhat by a sexually assertive girl.

 

What kind of argument is that? "She is with you right now?" If you really were competing against previous lovers... then that argument is worthless. She was with them before just as she is with you now. Your no different in the scheme of things.

 

However, the competitive aspect comes into play when you consider what your competing over. When you win a prize that every other guy already has... your just the last guy to win. Big deal.

 

Now... you compete and win a prize that very few other men have... then it has a much higher value to you!

 

Trust me, you graduate from Harvard... you feel a sense of accomplishment. You graduate from community college, just like a zillion other people.... how proud are you?

 

I guess I am referring to "sex without love" completely at face value - when you have sex with someone that you wouldn't necessarily say "I love you" to. it can be a friend, stranger, or even someone that you're in the early stages of dating. What separates this from soliciting a prostitute is that there is still an innate level of companionship and mutual desire that comes from this type of sex that does not come from a prostitute. granted, it's certainly on a smaller, more finite scale than sex with a girlfriend or wife - and if personally this would never intrigue you or would make you feel uncomfortable, that's totally fine, and plenty of people are in the same boat as you - but to imply that other people are "devalued" because they engage in it...I mean, your thoughts are completely your prerogative but in this day and age you're excluding a heck of a large portion of the population! Let me ask you this - do you also have a set formula or parameters regarding a girl's sexual past that would cause you to immediately write them off as a potential girlfriend?

 

How many people have you met that engage in casual sex for those reasons? To have some small communal bond? I'd say it's pretty rare. The vast majority of FWB situations are a user/used relationship. Even if it doesn't start out that way.

 

I typically apply a don't ask don't tell policy to relationships. However, I often will rule out a female prior to dating if I hear from friends that she has a bad reputation. I tend to be really picky in regards to many, many personality traits... I don't just look at one thing.

 

whoa - you mean women that engage in casual sex at all, or women with "huge" numbers? I mean, I think that anyone who's sleeping with hundreds of people or something like that probably has some mental issues, sure. but most of these types of discussions on here don't involve huge numbers or insane pasts - most of them involve a few isolated incidents, or running into one or two guys that a girl has slept with, or a crazy one-off night - basically things that are only considered abnormal because they don't directly correspond with the guy's past.

 

I'm not going to disagree with you in general here.

 

My point was simply that # of sexual partners often correlates directly to your state of mental health.

 

i don't disagree with that at all either. but my girlfriend has had sex before me, both casual and within a loving relationship, and she has had no difficulty in conveying my importance in tons of ways.

 

This has to do with your emotional needs. I'd have to be a real jerkoff to sit here and try to tell you that your GF doesn't think your important. Serious... I'm very glad that your relationship is going good, and that she is meeting your needs.

[Stockalone]

whoa, I never implied that the past has no meaning whatsoever - it certainly does...but someone's past needs to be taken AS A WHOLE and is not defined by two or three isolated incidents and that someone should not be branded with a scarlet letter for doing something in years past that hurt no one and is essentially normal amongst young people as long as they are ready to leave that behind them upon entering a relationship.

 

I don't care if society considers it normal. All that matters is if I think it is o.k., which I don't.

 

I am not tyring to change people, let alone force them to change. If they want to have casual sex, by all means, let them. I am not even branding people with a scarlett letter in my mind, that would imply a desire to punish them for their actions. Even though that is not my intention, I can see how people would feel that is exactly what I am doing.

 

I have no desire to punish them (it's not like we are talking about cheaters), but if I were to ignore their decisions, that would feel like validating those decisions and that would seriously compromise a core belief of mine.

 

 

 

By focusing on two or three nights and/or bad decisions that you disagree with, it is you that is ignoring the bulk of someone's past, not me.

 

Those few decisions can indeed outweigh everything else in someone's past. However, I am not ignoring the bulk of someone's past, I am merely assigning a different value to certain aspects of their past compared to other people.

[AAlike]

 

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of my gender bias? I fully admit to it. I think that men and women are different... and that we have different roles to play... and that is natural. See, equal does not mean the exact same. People can be different and still be equal.

 

no disagreement there - I think the genders are obviously different as well in regards to sexuality. but I also think that cultural elements have sensationalized these differences and have resulted in women suppressing sexuality and men supressing emotion - and the results of this have manifested themselves in discussions like this!

 

I don't think we should encourage sport sex. Not until we understand it's affects on human psychology better, and eliminate STD's.

 

we shouldn't encourage or discourage it - it should be a decision left solely up to the participants and that's it. however, our current culture of "promote everything revolving around sex but feel ashamed if you actually have it" needs to go. pick a damn side.

 

What kind of argument is that? "She is with you right now?" If you really were competing against previous lovers... then that argument is worthless. She was with them before just as she is with you now. Your no different in the scheme of things.

 

However, the competitive aspect comes into play when you consider what your competing over. When you win a prize that every other guy already has... your just the last guy to win. Big deal.

 

Now... you compete and win a prize that very few other men have... then it has a much higher value to you!

 

Trust me, you graduate from Harvard... you feel a sense of accomplishment. You graduate from community college, just like a zillion other people.... how proud are you?

 

wow. curious Cobra - is this how you personally think or are you just citing this as an illustration of the typical "alpha male" reasoning that so often leads to these issues?

 

This is a very alarming, unbelievably sexist line of thinking - yet, I can't say that ten years ago I wouldn't have agreed with it somewhat, even subconsciously. kind of disturbing.

 

so by this logic, the highest "class" of man or whatever would be competing for the virgins of the world, while the lower settle for the devalued fornicators.

 

I also feel like this statement implies that women don't have a whole heck of a lot to offer beyond sex - that once someone else has had sex with a women that he has "gotten as much out of her" or whatever as someone who is dating her. that is scary and totally inaccurate. sex itself is a pretty mundane act that can be accomplished between any two people - it's the appreciation of the person as a whole that makes it have any true signficance or lasting effect - and that's the prize, man.

 

How many people have you met that engage in casual sex for those reasons? To have some small communal bond? I'd say it's pretty rare. The vast majority of FWB situations are a user/used relationship. Even if it doesn't start out that way.

 

of course, like many other spur of the moment and/or youthful decisions, there is some element of instant gratification, sure. but I know that in my case I didn't fall in love until I was 30 years old, but I met plenty of women that I was attracted to and enjoyed their company - some of which I slept with, probably because of the combination of hormones and desire for companionship. You can equate that to me calling a hooker if you wish, I don't see it that way at all.

 

I typically apply a don't ask don't tell policy to relationships. However, I often will rule out a female prior to dating if I hear from friends that she has a bad reputation. I tend to be really picky in regards to many, many personality traits... I don't just look at one thing.

 

good, I completely advocate being picky on a complete scale! I was just wondering if sexual histories (within reason of course) can be dealbreakers to you as well.

 

My point was simply that # of sexual partners often correlates directly to your state of mental health.

 

maybe in some situations that's true, but "often"? that's a fairly strong statement. If someone has slept with hundreds of people, or a ton within a very short time (only using this as an example siphon), yes, I'd say that it is often indicative of some sort of suboptimal mental or emotional state, sure. but to say that a 27-year old woman that has been with 10 guys is probably in a weaker mental state than someone of the same age that's been with 5 guys is ridiculous. maybe she's just been single longer, or gets bored of guys more often, or maybe (gasp) she just liked the occassional fling in college.

 

This has to do with your emotional needs. I'd have to be a real jerkoff to sit here and try to tell you that your GF doesn't think your important. Serious... I'm very glad that your relationship is going good, and that she is meeting your needs.

 

I was never taking anything personally, don't worry about that man.

[Cobra_X30]

no disagreement there - I think the genders are obviously different as well in regards to sexuality. but I also think that cultural elements have sensationalized these differences and have resulted in women suppressing sexuality and men supressing emotion - and the results of this have manifested themselves in discussions like this!

 

Are you sure that this isn't a bad system already?

 

I look at places like South Africa and think... do they need more casual sex?

 

I think it's best that we discourage risky sexual behavior... instead of pretending that it has no consequences. It does. Sometimes it just messes with your head, sometimes it can cause physical damage.

 

I say we should all be very picky about who we have sex with.

 

we shouldn't encourage or discourage it - it should be a decision left solely up to the participants and that's it. however, our current culture of "promote everything revolving around sex but feel ashamed if you actually have it" needs to go. pick a damn side.

 

Yes! We do need to change our sex saturated media.

 

The whole thing about feeling ashamed... again... it's all about context.

 

wow. curious Cobra - is this how you personally think or are you just citing this as an illustration of the typical "alpha male" reasoning that so often leads to these issues?

This is a very alarming, unbelievably sexist line of thinking - yet, I can't say that ten years ago I wouldn't have agreed with it somewhat, even subconsciously. kind of disturbing.

so by this logic, the highest "class" of man or whatever would be competing for the virgins of the world, while the lower settle for the devalued fornicators.

I also feel like this statement implies that women don't have a whole heck of a lot to offer beyond sex - that once someone else has had sex with a women that he has "gotten as much out of her" or whatever as someone who is dating her. that is scary and totally inaccurate. sex itself is a pretty mundane act that can be accomplished between any two people - it's the appreciation of the person as a whole that makes it have any true signficance or lasting effect - and that's the prize, man.

 

First, women have much, much more to offer than sex, I completely agree on that point. However, you cannot say that sex is unimportant. In fact, I'd say that is the defining reason men and women get together... to produce offspring. Never, ever forget that the purpose of sex is to produce children. That's how we are hardwired to think... no amount of condoms will change that.

 

Now, in regards to class and hierarchy... this is, was, and always will be a perceived value system. A king is only a king so long as we believe that he is.

 

The same applies here. An ex prostitute will have a lower perceived value to most males because of the vast quantity of other men who have been with her. Because of that value drop in your mind, and in the minds of other men, she has less to offer you emotionally in that arena.

 

Now, depending on your mindset this can go the other way. I've seen both.

 

I hope that makes things a touch more clear.

 

of course, like many other spur of the moment and/or youthful decisions, there is some element of instant gratification, sure. but I know that in my case I didn't fall in love until I was 30 years old, but I met plenty of women that I was attracted to and enjoyed their company - some of which I slept with, probably because of the combination of hormones and desire for companionship. You can equate that to me calling a hooker if you wish, I don't see it that way at all.

 

Instant gratification seeking is rarely an admirable character trait in a mate.

 

So, you had sex with women you made no commitment to, and never had any long term interest in?

 

For me... I would not do that. Not that I am better, I just view my sexuality in a different way. If I don't find future value in a woman I'm not going to have sex with her. Maybe I'm too picky.

 

I tend to go through relationships quickly anyway... so I suppose the distinction is splitting hairs in a way. It's just I take a different attitude going into a sexual encounter.

 

good, I completely advocate being picky on a complete scale! I was just wondering if sexual histories (within reason of course) can be dealbreakers to you as well.

 

Yes and no. It can be a dealbreaker... but it's because I value sex in a relationship, and I'm not interested in a woman that fails to value that as well. If it's cheap to her, we are fundamentally incompatible.

 

maybe in some situations that's true, but "often"? that's a fairly strong statement. If someone has slept with hundreds of people, or a ton within a very short time (only using this as an example siphon), yes, I'd say that it is often indicative of some sort of suboptimal mental or emotional state, sure. but to say that a 27-year old woman that has been with 10 guys is probably in a weaker mental state than someone of the same age that's been with 5 guys is ridiculous. maybe she's just been single longer, or gets bored of guys more often, or maybe (gasp) she just liked the occassional fling in college.

 

See your trying to assign an exact numerical value to this. There is not one. Like everything else in life it is very circumstantial.

 

I place less importance on the exact number and more on the context in which the sex took place. So for example... if she had 10 boyfriends... that is much different to me than if she had 10 guys all in one night. I suppose if you want an equation for that you could assume that I apply multipliers to multiples.

 

I was never taking anything personally, don't worry about that man.

 

I'm glad... I did not and do not wish to offend. This can be a touchy subject.

 

I appreciate that your smart and logical!

[AAlike]

I think it's best that we discourage risky sexual behavior... instead of pretending that it has no consequences. It does. Sometimes it just messes with your head, sometimes it can cause physical damage.

 

I say we should all be very picky about who we have sex with.

 

well, ok, in a self-preservation sense sure (although I'd argue that unprotected sex with someone you're dating is riskier than protected sex with a stranger or acquaintance) - but I really don't think that OP and other guys' issues have anything to do with the riskiness involved.

 

First, women have much, much more to offer than sex, I completely agree on that point. However, you cannot say that sex is unimportant. In fact, I'd say that is the defining reason men and women get together... to produce offspring. Never, ever forget that the purpose of sex is to produce children. That's how we are hardwired to think... no amount of condoms will change that.

 

see, I think that "hardwired for reproduction" thing is ridiculous - we're also "hardwired" to get an erection anytime a girl bends over and to think about sex 500 times a day or whatever the average man does. To me, if anything, that would suggest a biological predilection for promiscuity over monogamy.

 

The same applies here. An ex prostitute will have a lower perceived value to most males because of the vast quantity of other men who have been with her. Because of that value drop in your mind, and in the minds of other men, she has less to offer you emotionally in that arena.

 

but we're not talking about prostitutes here - we're talking about incidents like "I saw some guy she made out with in college and I had to go punch out a wall." prostitution is illegal, and renders sex as a profession instead of an enjoyable activity. if someone is having sex without any enjoyment, yeah, that's a problem. although I suppose that I can understand the "diminishing value" theory that you're advocating here when applied to that sort of extreme, I'm saying that any sensible, mature, realistic man should realize that a few casual incidents with a nominal amount of people should not register on that scale. otherwise you're implying that virgins are intrinsically the most "valuable" of women - and hey, if you want to seek out a 28-year old virgin, more power to you. I'd be extremely wary of one, myself.

 

Instant gratification seeking is rarely an admirable character trait in a mate.

 

Sure, but it's a very common trait in someone that's young, and also a trait that people commonly grow out of.

 

So, you had sex with women you made no commitment to, and never had any long term interest in?

 

I suppose so - although with some of them, maybe I was trying to find long term interest in them, who knows. It's all been muddied since finding the right girl.

 

For me... I would not do that. Not that I am better, I just view my sexuality in a different way. If I don't find future value in a woman I'm not going to have sex with her. Maybe I'm too picky.

 

and that's fine - if that's what works for you, that's what you should do. there's no "better or worse", there's just choices.

[Siphon9a]

Those few decisions can indeed outweigh everything else in someone's past. However, I am not ignoring the bulk of someone's past, I am merely assigning a different value to certain aspects of their past compared to other people.

 

I seen things that way when I first posted this thread on this site. Things in the last few days have made me realize alot. I've also visited other forums with views and and ideas that were similar to my own. It took me realizing those things and who I am to get to this point I'm at right now. I just don't care about the past anymore. I think I was so wrapped up with her past and those people and what everyone would think and say. I just finally made the decision to not worry about it anymore. Not to say I might not think about it at times, but at the end of the day, I'm happy with her and her company. We have fun together and she understands me and is willing to work on whatever it is that may come about and I am the same with her. She does whatever she can to make sure I'm happy. This situation is just one of those obstacles that come about in some realtionships. I'm not going to put too much emphasis on a "way in the future" kind of thing, but I'm going to see where this goes with this girl. There are some things in life you just can't control and I'm learning that. The past is one of them and so is the future. I'm just going to do my best to work on the right now and the weeks ahead and stop looking at a few months ago or years in the future. I've got enough more important **** in the now to keep me occupied for awhile.

 

AAlike, I appreciate you talking with me man. You were a big help in explaining things and it was nice to just get all that out and talk about it rather than post online or go to my/our "friends" to talk about it. Props to you man! Let me know when your down this way. I at least owe you a beer!

Edited March 27, 2008 by Siphon9a

[AAlike]

I seen things that way when I first posted this thread on this site. Things in the last few days have made me realize alot. I've also visited other forums with views and and ideas that were similar to my own. It took me realizing those things and who I am to get to this point I'm at right now. I just don't care about the past anymore. I think I was so wrapped up with her past and those people and what everyone would think and say. I just finally made the decision to not worry about it anymore. Not to say I might not think about it at times, but at the end of the day, I'm happy with her and her company. We have fun together and she understands me and is willing to work on whatever it is that may come about and I am the same with her. She does whatever she can to make sure I'm happy. This situation is just one of those obstacles that come about in some realtionships. I'm not going to put too much emphasis on a "way in the future" kind of thing, but I'm going to see where this goes with this girl. There are some things in life you just can't control and I'm learning that. The past is one of them and so is the future. I'm just going to do my best to work on the right now and the weeks ahead and stop looking at a few months ago or years in the future. I've got enough more important **** in the now to keep me occupied for awhile.

 

AAlike, I appreciate you talking with me man. You were a big help in explaining things and it was nice to just get all that out and talk about it rather than post online or go to my/our "friends" to talk about it. Props to you man! Let me know when your down this way. I at least owe you a beer!

 

Hey, good to hear that things are getting better. I think you've got the right attitude, and I think that if you are truly happy with her, that will eventually outweigh you caring about what other people think (another probable cause of this that we hadn't discussed), and you'll realize that although you'll never know the details of what went down in her past experiences, you'll also realize that both her and the guys have moved on and don't give a damn anymore and it's only you sitting there dwelling on it. like I said, it's gradual, and although you'll probably never look back on her past and have a good chuckle about it, eventually you'll just get to the point where you accept it all and realize that no harm really came of it, and I think that'll come soon.

 

although I will certainly accept your offer for a beer if I'm 'round your way, it was certainly no problem to talk with you...like I said I have been EXACTLY where you are and I know how much just talking it out can help matters and I know how much it helped me when I felt frustrated in a similar manner. so don't sweat it at all, like I said, it still helps me a little bit too.

[Siphon9a]

Hey, good to hear that things are getting better. I think you've got the right attitude, and I think that if you are truly happy with her, that will eventually outweigh you caring about what other people think (another probable cause of this that we hadn't discussed), and you'll realize that although you'll never know the details of what went down in her past experiences, you'll also realize that both her and the guys have moved on and don't give a damn anymore and it's only you sitting there dwelling on it. like I said, it's gradual, and although you'll probably never look back on her past and have a good chuckle about it, eventually you'll just get to the point where you accept it all and realize that no harm really came of it, and I think that'll come soon.

 

although I will certainly accept your offer for a beer if I'm 'round your way, it was certainly no problem to talk with you...like I said I have been EXACTLY where you are and I know how much just talking it out can help matters and I know how much it helped me when I felt frustrated in a similar manner. so don't sweat it at all, like I said, it still helps me a little bit too.

 

Yeah I generally do these kinds of things when I think about situations I'm in. I'll rack my brain over them on what decision to make and then it will all finally click. I'm just glad I seen so many different opinions on the subject to really realize where I was at and where I was headed. I kinda told her last night that there's some "things" I cleared up and you could tell she was so relieved. Plus that night and getting ready for work this morning was even better!

 

Yeah we never got into the "what others think". I come to the conclusion that they don't care. One of our close guy friends came up to me the other day when I was having a party and just ask simply "are you happy? I said yeah I am, and he said I'm glad to hear it, you deserve to be." and that was all he said. I didn't know what to really make of it until now. I guess in all this I am finally seeing alot more of the world and not the narrow scope I only let myself see. Thanks to coming here and posting this, it has opened up my eyes.

 

I just hope somewhere down the road someone will read this and it will help them.

[dogtown]

I don't know if anyone is still reading this post, but I'll chime in.

 

I went through the exact same experience in a relationship. As I dated the girl I continually found out more about their past. First I found out that she and her best friend used to chase professional athletes. Found out she slept with a few of them. Then I found out that she slept with a couple of our student's parents (we work at the same school). It was intense processing all this stuff. Like Siphon, I had a hard time dealing with it. It was like I got to know one person only to have my perspective of them completely changed. The person I know would not do this! Why did she do this? So the fact that everytime I turned on Sportscenter I thought of athletes traveling through town doing my girlfriend and then everytime I taught my students I was like, "my girlfriend slept with your Dad and you don't even know it" all made me have second thoughts.

 

Long story short. I can't say I ever got over that stuff (and I don't really consider myself insecure - I'm happy, athletic and I love talking to people - but I guess I am after reading these posts). What it came down to is that the person I am going to marry has to be balanced in order for the marriage to last X amount of years. Her past was not balanced behavior. Eventually, she will redirect that imbalanced behavior somewhere else. Maybe it won't be that desire to sleep around, but other parts of her life will be out of whack as her past has already shown. And I was starting to see that emerge in the relationship - fighting with me over petty stuff like why I didn't invite her somewhere or refuses to talk to me for 3 days because I grabbed dinner with a buddy one night and didn't call her until late. People don't really get over things they just learn to redirect the incorrect behavior somewhere else in their life.

 

So my advice Siphon if you're still reading...

 

Look beyond her past behavior. Are there any indications currently that she is out of balance? Ok, we all are to a certain degree, I know, but how extreme is it?

 

You seem like you have it figured out and I wish you all the best.

Edited April 3, 2008 by dogtown

[AAlike]

I don't know if anyone is still reading this post, but I'll chime in.

 

I went through the exact same experience in a relationship. As I dated the girl I continually found out more about their past. First I found out that she and her best friend used to chase professional athletes. Found out she slept with a few of them. Then I found out that she slept with a couple of our student's parents (we work at the same school). It was intense processing all this stuff. Like Siphon, I had a hard time dealing with it. It was like I got to know one person only to have my perspective of them completely changed. The person I know would not do this! Why did she do this? So the fact that everytime I turned on Sportscenter I thought of athletes traveling through town doing my girlfriend and then everytime I taught my students I was like, "my girlfriend slept with your Dad and you don't even know it" all made me have second thoughts.

 

Long story short. I can't say I ever got over that stuff (and I don't really consider myself insecure - I'm happy, athletic and I love talking to people - but I guess I am after reading these posts). What it came down to is that the person I am going to marry has to be balanced in order for the marriage to last X amount of years. Her past was not balanced behavior. Eventually, she will redirect that imbalanced behavior somewhere else. Maybe it won't be that desire to sleep around, but other parts of her life will be out of whack as her past has already shown. And I was starting to see that emerge in the relationship - fighting with me over petty stuff like why I didn't invite her somewhere or refuses to talk to me for 3 days because I grabbed dinner with a buddy one night and didn't call her until late. People don't really get over things they just learn to redirect the incorrect behavior somewhere else in their life.

 

So my advice Siphon if you're still reading...

 

Look beyond her past behavior. Are there any indications currently that she is out of balance? Ok, we all are to a certain degree, I know, but how extreme is it?

 

You seem like you have it figured out and I wish you all the best.

 

very interesting post dogtown...and it illustrates that there are two separate potential issues - issue A being "my girlfriend has had a colorful sexual past" and issue B being "my girlfriend has shown clear signs of questionable judgement and/or emotionally unstable behavior." Ideally, issue A should not bother you, and that's more the "guy" issues of retroactive jealousy/insecurity/whatever, and "the past should not matter" come into play. However, issue B is a totally separate avenue, and I don't think being concerned with it is indicative of any insecurity whatsoever. Perhaps the million dollar question is does issue A automatically imply that issue B is true, and if not, how extreme of a sexual past is dismissable before you start thinking that it must be indicative of some instability that will affect you going forward? I don't know that there's a definitive answer to that question.

 

However, I will say that those of you who say that people "never get over things" and never change are being a tad ridiculous. Can you people honestly say that people are apt to make the same decisions in their 30's as they do their teens? Or even at 25 as they did at 21? While I would agree that a lot of casual sex is had at least in part for the purpose of short-term validation and gratification, I would argue that a large portion of peoples' actions, esepcially younger people, are done for that same purpose. That said, I would also have had a pretty big problem with the whole "sleeping with the student's parents" thing...maybe because I don't even see how that could be validating or gratifying.

[dogtown]

Perhaps the million dollar question is does issue A automatically imply that issue B is true, and if not, how extreme of a sexual past is dismissable before you start thinking that it must be indicative of some instability that will affect you going forward? I don't know that there's a definitive answer to that question.

 

Agreed. I think it is an instance of "I'll know it when I see/hear it". Putting an exact number/measurment on it is not fair or possible.

 

However, I will say that those of you who say that people "never get over things" and never change are being a tad ridiculous. Can you people honestly say that people are apt to make the same decisions in their 30's as they do their teens? Or even at 25 as they did at 21? While I would agree that a lot of casual sex is had at least in part for the purpose of short-term validation and gratification, I would argue that a large portion of peoples' actions, esepcially younger people, are done for that same purpose.

 

Yeah, I've really struggled with the fact that people can or cannot change. Currently, I'm of the camp that yes people change, but they redirect that obsessive behavior somewhere else. So for instance, a chain smoker may quit smoking, but they will, in most cases, redirect that obsession somewhere else be it chewing gum or drinking 10 cups of coffee a day. Actually, now that I think about it maybe this comparison isn't fair since nicotine causes addiction. However, is not the person who feels the "need" or "desire" to constantly sleep with someone else suffering a psychological addiction? They are addicted to the fact that they need to feel wanted or close to someone.

 

So I take the stance that these obsessive behaviors manifest themselves in different forms later on. That's what I saw happening in my relationship. And I think that is what you need to be wary of when your partner says they've slept with 40+ people.