Still having trouble with finding effective approaches...

[carhill]

That's good advice (friends and acquaintances)...

 

Remember, every women you meet is a potential friend or acquaintance who might introduce you to the love of your life. She might even become that The trick is letting it happen rather than forcing the issue. Personally, I've never regretted all the female friends I've had, even though I've had few romantic relationships in my life. Women are a real asset

[monkey00]

That's good advice (friends and acquaintances)...

 

Remember, every women you meet is a potential friend or acquaintance who might introduce you to the love of your life. She might even become that The trick is letting it happen rather than forcing the issue. Personally, I've never regretted all the female friends I've had, even though I've had few romantic relationships in my life. Women are a real asset

 

I'm going to have to agree with this. This goes back to the point I mentioned about being friendly to women. Women do become a real asset, and aside from that being friends with one or many shows you're fully capable of dating the opposite sex.

 

What good is attempting to be active if virtually no one even appreciates it?

 

I think it's more of a lifestyle. You just have to do this for yourself and with people regularly. If you don't try, how will you know whether or not they appreciate it??

[xpaperxcutx]

Lights from your responses, I sense alot of enmity from you, I mean the responses that you've written here has given me the impression that you're a very sulky person, disheartened at best. I don't really think the problem are the women you're trying to get acquainted with, but with yourself.

[DanielMadr]

To be completely honest i never respond back to any guy when they say "hi", it doesnt matter if they are cute or ugly. I am just usually going about doing my ow thing in the store or mall whatever and have no interest in talking to anyone whatsoever. I am willing to bet other women do the same thing to or feel the same way. I am just not interested in getting to know any strangers/anyone new.

 

Sometimes people just do not want to talk and NOTHING you can do can make them talk.

 

Stuck-up people always do like that...then they sit at home bitting their nails.

[Lights]

IMO the best way to meet girls is through friends or acquaintances. Do you have many of these? If not, are you ok at making friends and/or acquaintances?

 

That's good advice (friends and acquaintances)...

 

Remember, every women you meet is a potential friend or acquaintance who might introduce you to the love of your life. She might even become that The trick is letting it happen rather than forcing the issue. Personally, I've never regretted all the female friends I've had, even though I've had few romantic relationships in my life. Women are a real asset

 

I'm going to have to agree with this. This goes back to the point I mentioned about being friendly to women. Women do become a real asset, and aside from that being friends with one or many shows you're fully capable of dating the opposite sex.

 

These all are based on the assumption that the women in question give me the proverbial time of day. I think it's clear that that's not been happening. It's still the same issue, whether as friends/acquaintances or as first dates; do I get them to even talk to me, and if they do talk, do I get to see them more than once or not (assuming that I want to)? This is why I asked the original questions.

 

hi Lights,

 

I remember you from when I originally joined this site...

In the gym, street or shops is not good at all. In those settings the girl has to come to you, that's it. If you hit on them in those settings 99.9% of them won't like it no matter what approach you take.

Hi Lino, could you explain about how to get them to come to me? I'd like to learn about that. (If you could send me a private message, if you have those enabled, that would be much appreciated.)

 

Lights from your responses, I sense alot of enmity from you, I mean the responses that you've written here has given me the impression that you're a very sulky person, disheartened at best. I don't really think the problem are the women you're trying to get acquainted with, but with yourself.

 

Yes, I am disheartened!

[Lights]

An update.

 

No change so far results-wise. It's all the same. I only hope that this will work...

 

If I were you, I'd read everything I could get my hands on regarding talking to people and making them feel at ease. Not the "how to pick up chicks" books... but more along the lines of how to win friends influence people, etc. Books that will help your creative side to see options for conversation starters or how to approach people in different ways to get different responses. Then practice the hell out of it. Try it on men, women, old people, kids... everyone. Until you feel comfortable with striking up conversations and you're getting results. THEN use those skills to strike up conversations with the woman are interested in getting to know.

 

I've recently bought a book on the subject. I'll see what happens when it arrives...

[lino]

These all are based on the assumption that the women in question give me the proverbial time of day. I think it's clear that that's not been happening. It's still the same issue, whether as friends/acquaintances or as first dates; do I get them to even talk to me, and if they do talk, do I get to see them more than once or not (assuming that I want to)? This is why I asked the original questions.

 

Well I didn't mean the friends/acquaintances had to necessarily be female.

Do you have many friends/acquaintances(either male or female, doesn't matter) that you hang out with? If so do you ever meet any of their female friends/acquaintances while hanging out? IMO that's the best scenario to meet a girl because in that situation if she's hanging out with you & your friend then she can't simply pass you by like a chick in the shops or on the street would.

 

I'll send you a PM.

[FormerNiceGuy]

I think there’s a huge underlying problem behind all of these tactics and methods to try to speak to a woman.

 

I think that instead of people asking the question, “How do I talk to her?”

 

They should instead ask, “How do I talk to people?”

If you already know how to talk to people and they find you interesting, then it really doesn’t pose a problem to speak to a woman.

 

The only difference is that the guy just adds sexuality in his conversation.

 

Look at the most popular guys and all those who have charisma, and you’ll see that they were brought up this way.

 

Then, take a look at all those loners, and all those “losers”, and you’ll see that they were brought up in a certain way.

 

If you could never talk to people in the first place, how do you expect to talk to women?

 

And so these losers ask, “I’m not outgoing. I’m shy. How do I talk to women? What pickup lines should I use?”

 

Pickup lines and tactics are weak. If you can already talk, you don’t have to use someone else’s lines.

 

Look at the best players. Look at the kings. What do they all have in common?

 

They know how to talk.

Losers use pickup lines. And pickup lines always lose.

 

If pickup lines worked, wouldn’t everybody who used a pickup line be getting laid?

 

No.

 

The problem with pickup lines is that they only work on stupid women.

 

 

But the natural and genuine ability to speak is something you don’t get from reading books. Look, it sounds harsh, but I’ll just let you in on the truth.

 

If you think you can use pickup lines to replace years of social mastery, then I encourage you to do so.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is that you cannot skip steps. And a lot of people think they can just skip steps. But you can't. You have to work from the ground up. People who are "natural" at it or were social to begin with, can go straight for the kill.

 

They already know how to talk to regular people and they have that natural ability to speak to everyone so they can use those internal skills to get women. People who weren't as socially gifted cannot skip steps.

 

They have to start from the beginning, which is learning how to speak to regular people. If you don't know how to speak with regular people with ease, comfort, and alacrity then it won't come out natural.

 

Most of these "problems" and "questions" I see here aren't related to a lack in "game", but rather a lack in BASIC SOCIAL SKILLS.

 

You can develop all these social skills by working from the ground up. My point is not to worry so much about confidence, mystery, being a challenge, ambition etc. Rather, I focus on the things that produce those.

 

Try to improve your sense of humor. Try to be more friendly. Try to improve your SOCIAL SKILLS. Get involved with people, learn how to be a leader. Become comfortable with interacting with other people. Be social.

 

Once you know how to speak to regular people then you will succeed with women because it’s no different. The only difference is that you are adding sexuality.

 

If you try to skip steps then you will fail to those who are already natural at it. But if you want to succeed…then you have to start from the beginning.

 

I think one of the best ways to get a girl to like you and to get your best game on is to just act like you know her.

 

When you memorize and use tactics and pickup lines, it doesn’t sound sincere. It makes it sound like you’ve been thinking too much about it.

 

Women aren’t stupid. They can talk to a guy and see whether the guy is just trying to get into her pants. Don’t analyze women too much. The way I look at it, you just got to act like she knows you and you know her.

 

Make her feel comfortable.

 

 

Now, there’s one bit of advice I must add. And one crucial one at that. While you do act like you know her, you must act like a guy who has some sexual interest in her as well.

 

Treat her like an ex-girlfriend that you used to like.

 

You wouldn’t use cheap pickup lines! You wouldn’t have to think about tactics! You wouldn’t think about whether she likes you or not! You wouldn’t CARE about whether what you’re saying is right! You wouldn’t give a damn.

 

Why?

 

Because you know her!

 

This is why it helps when you assume that a girl likes you! This is also why women like guys who already have girlfriends. These guys act and speak differently.

 

When you act like you know a girl, you don’t care about whether she likes you, because in your mind, she does like you!

 

The trick is to talk to them like you know them and to not care whether what you’re saying is right. If you believe that what you say is smooth, it will be! When you start second-guessing yourself, your words come out weak and fake.

 

Hope this helps.

[Lights]

I think there’s a huge underlying problem behind all of these tactics and methods to try to speak to a woman.

 

I think that instead of people asking the question, “How do I talk to her?”

 

They should instead ask, “How do I talk to people?”

If you already know how to talk to people and they find you interesting, then it really doesn’t pose a problem to speak to a woman.

The same issue nevertheless presents itself in that it takes two to tango. It's not hard to talk to people provided one has closed sufficient physical distance given (unless relative movement speeds of oneself and the people in the immediate area happen to be working against one); it's hard getting them to talk back. I am having difficulty getting a reasonably reliable response to even a hi and am not sure what would get even the most basic of initial responses except by luck.

 

Pickup lines and tactics are weak. If you can already talk, you don’t have to use someone else’s lines.

I don't think anyone in this thread ever mentioned pick up lines. It's not whether I can talk; it's whether they talk back and find the approach actually attractive.

 

Try to improve your sense of humor. Try to be more friendly. Try to improve your SOCIAL SKILLS. Get involved with people, learn how to be a leader. Become comfortable with interacting with other people. Be social.

I'm quite curious just how you use this when people will not even respond to the most basic of initial greetings or conversation starters...

 

Treat her like an ex-girlfriend that you used to like.

I don't have any ex-girlfriends, so I don't know what this means.

[xpaperxcutx]

Lights, FormerNiceGuy, just gave one of the best advices out there, so don't OVERANALYZE. You're putting too much effort in trying to dissect the female behaviour and not enough on how to actually work yourself up to the point of approaching one in person. Remember it is what it is.

[Walk]

The same issue nevertheless presents itself in that it takes two to tango. It's not hard to talk to people provided one has closed sufficient physical distance given (unless relative movement speeds of oneself and the people in the immediate area happen to be working against one); it's hard getting them to talk back. I am having difficulty getting a reasonably reliable response to even a hi and am not sure what would get even the most basic of initial responses except by luck.

I'm wondering if you have this same problem with men? Can you comfortable approach someone of the same sex and strike up a conversation and have them respond and interact?

 

I'm curious as to whether all people react to you the same way, or only the female gender. And if it is only the female gender, then can you describe the difference between how you present yourself to a man versus to a woman? Maybe by verbalizing the differences in how you approach the two genders you might be able to pick out where the potential hang up is occuring. If you can narrow down the issue it may help you alter the outcome.

 

Ironically, I was discussing with my fiance not too long ago about my inability to meet women who I have anything in common with. And I keep doing the same thing to find new friends, and I continue to meet the same types of people. If I want to have a chance at meeting someone I could potentially have a friendship with, then I'll have to go places where I can meet people I'll have something in common with.

 

You're almost asking the impossible here. Even I can't stop a woman on the street and get her to agree to give me her phone number or meet up with me for coffee. People do not trust strangers anymore, and for good reasons.

[Storyrider]

I wonder if you would have more luck asking people where they met their SOs. That might give you an idea of venues that work.

 

I met the first two in school. They were part of a larger group of friends. Two I met through mutual friends at parties where I knew many of the guests and was socializing freely. Another lived in a dorm with me, another social environment. One was a coworker.

 

Notice that these meetings all took place within a social structure that was already intact. I had a web of friends and acquaintances through which I established and progressed with these romantic relationships. There was a context. I didn't meet any of them from just a random approach on the street.

 

Are you in a social vacuum?

[halfarock]

If you are just going out and seeing some girl and going up and approaching, you’re always going to have a large number of rejections, out of hand. Typically you need to make eye contact, get some kind of interest going before you approach.

 

I’ve never had your type of problems so I’m not sure that what I have to say relates. Nonetheless I have had more than my fair share of successes with women and I have never just approached a woman. It always starts with becoming familiar with each other in the course of socializing within a larger group, within my social circle, in the course of doing business, within interest groups, and the like. At some point a woman and I will just kind of connect.

 

It is like I’ll be hanging out with a group of people and there will be a general group conversation going on and in between all that there will be a woman and our eyes will meet and there is a type of communication, a non-verbal communication that goes on that demonstrates to each other a mutual interest. In the course of everything else we’ll find ourselves drifting off to the side of the group. Our conversation will be in line with the general conversation of the group but there is a personalness to it. Often it feels more like we are building an alliance, a partnership, or whatever rather than trying to form a romantic tryst, even though it may well lead to that.

 

It is never forced. It either happens or it doesn’t.

[Lights]

Lights, FormerNiceGuy, just gave one of the best advices out there, so don't OVERANALYZE. You're putting too much effort in trying to dissect the female behaviour and not enough on how to actually work yourself up to the point of approaching one in person. Remember it is what it is.

Hi Xpapercutx, I'm not overanalyzing anything--merely pointing out that most of FNG's advice hasn't really applied to my situation.

 

I'm wondering if you have this same problem with men? Can you comfortable approach someone of the same sex and strike up a conversation and have them respond and interact?

 

I'm curious as to whether all people react to you the same way, or only the female gender. And if it is only the female gender, then can you describe the difference between how you present yourself to a man versus to a woman? Maybe by verbalizing the differences in how you approach the two genders you might be able to pick out where the potential hang up is occuring. If you can narrow down the issue it may help you alter the outcome.

 

It's never truly comfortable, no. It's different with men though; although I also need to do this sort of thing far less often, and I virtually never do the more forward approaches with them. (Most recently I struck up a conversation with some guys on a train; they were on their way to a music jam session and I recognized the music they were reading, and conversation came more easily due to that and happening to help one of them with the train locations) Most of the time with men though there already are things to talk about at the ready in those situations, (this is mainly because my work and daily life are extremely male-heavy, and also because I seem to relate much better to men as long as no rivalry over women or the like is involved), so "approaching" in that sense often isn't required.

 

I don't often meet single women of interest, even if I go out of my way to try to find environments that the legends du jour claim have a higher percentage of them. In practice it's difficult even closing physical distances in moving situations, so most opportunities are cut off before I can even start. Beyond that, everything else seems to be based on pure luck; I have not been able to identify anything that makes the difference between a positive and negative result, even to a hi or to initial eye contact as per the other posters' mention.

 

Specific to approaches, with women I may on occasion make a more direct approach (e.g. "Hi, I just thought I'd meet you. I'm Lights...") than I do with men, but in practice I cannot assume I will be given sufficient time to even complete those sentences. Other approaches such as mention of nearby visible things or phenomena (attempting conversation about something she's wearing, something about the immediate situation, etc.) are equally luck-based. As far as extended conversations go, it has been several months since I have last been successful at generating an extended conversation with a woman right on the spot (sitting down in a mall food court; turns out she was working at one of the shops and getting some food while temporarily off her shift. Nothing came of it, no interest of any kind seemed to be there.)

 

It's frustrating as hell. With men, I don't so much need to really care as approaching in that sense isn't always even necessary and I pass by plenty of them anyways, but as for the matter of finding women of interest, it's almost as if it requires some sort of masochistic pleasure in beating my head on a wall. No information seems to come my way on why each approach succeeds or fails.

 

Ironically, I was discussing with my fiance not too long ago about my inability to meet women who I have anything in common with. And I keep doing the same thing to find new friends, and I continue to meet the same types of people. If I want to have a chance at meeting someone I could potentially have a friendship with, then I'll have to go places where I can meet people I'll have something in common with.

Good luck Walk!! Hope things go well for you on that front.

 

I wonder if you would have more luck asking people where they met their SOs. That might give you an idea of venues that work.

Ok. Normally I'm afraid of asking people about their SOs or dating lives in general (if I ask them, they then might ask me, and then I'll be stuck either leaving them hanging if I refuse or else go off whining about this infuriating mess if I speak), but I suppose I'll try that anyways...

 

Are you in a social vacuum?

Sort of. I don't have the advantage of a social network that has single women of interest in it.

 

If you are just going out and seeing some girl and going up and approaching, you’re always going to have a large number of rejections, out of hand. Typically you need to make eye contact, get some kind of interest going before you approach.

Hi Halfarock. What would get the interest going?

 

I’ve never had your type of problems so I’m not sure that what I have to say relates. Nonetheless I have had more than my fair share of successes with women and I have never just approached a woman. It always starts with becoming familiar with each other in the course of socializing within a larger group, within my social circle, in the course of doing business, within interest groups, and the like. At some point a woman and I will just kind of connect.

Oh. I've never been able to accomplish something like that.

 

It is never forced. It either happens or it doesn’t.

Regrettably, I've never had that advantage. Virtually all socializing for me outside of dealing with a few workmates, and all attempts at meeting women, are forced, so to speak; if I don't actively go and try to meet them while the chance is there, I will guarantee my isolation as nothing seems to happen on its own.

[Walk]

I may be wrong, but I think what's really going on is your projecting a high level of anxiety when you see a woman you would like to approach, and the women are picking up on that.

 

You are capable of striking up conversations with men when you want to. This leads me to believe that you feel more relaxed with men. You also don't seem to lack the social skills to initiate a conversation, since it works with males. You seem as if your introverted and haven't had much experience in interacting with women. However, your posts tend to show a level of insecurity with yourself that you are probably projecting at higher levels when speaking with women. Add in the self-imposed pressure of higher then normal expectations, (I feel expecting a person to show signs of interest while passing you on the street is a high expectation) and it causes a person to tense up and seem stilted and on edge.

 

If you're approaching women feeling tensed, aggitated, and on edge, they'll bolt. They do anything possible to avoid eye contact, they'll hurry faster, and if you do get to say 'hi' they'll continue moving away from you.

 

Which seems to be how you describe your interactions with women.

 

Anyway, I think women are picking up on your anxiety in getting her to talk to you, and they're staying away from you. Probably the best method of over coming this is by being successful in getting women. Since that's not occuring (yet!), you're going to have to find a different way to approach women. The usual route isn't working for you. Try thinking out side the box and see what comes up.

 

Volunter at an female dominated charity organization. Library's often offer short classes or seminars for the public, google your library and check out their calendar of events. Find one that seems like women would enjoy and go to it. Go to an art exhibit. etc....

 

And when you go, just practice talking to women. Don't go with the belief that you need to get a woman to show interest in you. Take all the pressure off yourself. Use it as a learning experience, and a way to hone your conversation skills. Work on talking to them while feeling relaxed, and as comfortable as possible. I think if you take the pressure off of yourself, you'll find your more succesful in getting positive responses from women. The more positive reseponses you get, the greater your level of self-confidence will become. The more self-confident you feel, the more comfortable you'll feel in approaching other women in other settings, and the more likely you are to have a successful encounter.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Walk

[AllInOne]

And when you go, just practice talking to women. Don't go with the belief that you need to get a woman to show interest in you. Take all the pressure off yourself. Use it as a learning experience, and a way to hone your conversation skills. Work on talking to them while feeling relaxed, and as comfortable as possible. I think if you take the pressure off of yourself, you'll find your more succesful in getting positive responses from women. The more positive reseponses you get, the greater your level of self-confidence will become. The more self-confident you feel, the more comfortable you'll feel in approaching other women in other settings, and the more likely you are to have a successful encounter.

 

Hi Lights, I didn't read all the posts here but, I think you sound similar to me in some ways, so I can relate. I too don't have a network that can produce potential dates so I am left trying to meet complete strangers. I think Walk's advice above is outstanding. Especially the bold part. I have done just what she described and it has worked well.

 

It seems like you keep bringing up having trouble dealing with people physically moving too fast which sounds like you are trying to meet strangers walking down the street. I really don't think this should be attempted at all if that is what you are trying to do. I think you need to go somewhere where people are somewhat stationary like a book store or a coffee shop.

 

Good Luck.

[malaclypse]

You _are_ overanalyzing.

 

In my experience, the best approach is not to 'think in advance' at all - if you want to talk to a girl, just go to her and say hi. If there is a basic interest on her side, a conversation will start automatically...

 

Pick-up lines suck, but just being friendly and doing the first step (as in, start talking to her) does wonders....

[Trimmer]

Lights -

 

You asked once, in Nov 2007:

Is this the sort of issue that one would see a dating coach or the like about?

 

Did you ever give further thought to persuing this?

 

I just think there is only so much you can do by text, when my whole point is that you can't distill it down to a deterministic, high-percentage, luck-free set of rules for successful approaches, without factoring in all the intangible, non-verbal stuff that we cant help with over text messages.

 

I think it could be really valuable to have an independent observer right there in front of you, who can look at you as a whole person, including verbal, non-verbal, body language, appearance, attitude, etc. and who is not invested in the outcome, other than an obligation to be honest with you.

 

You've been at it so long, pounding the same pavement with little success or progress. What do you have to lose by "thinking outside the box" a little?

[TrojanForLife]

Things don't seem to change. I'm still having difficulty getting responses to a hi or to initial attempts at conversation. The rejections yield no information. How do I find out what's going wrong?

 

Also, what are some high-percentage direct approaches? I'm particularly interested in ones that work well in situations where I and the other are moving quickly, there is no previously-existing or borrowed rapport, and there is no information indicating that either will see the other again except by chance.

 

I used to have this problem 24/7, especially during the day when I was just out and about and I'd see a hot girl in the mall or in the grocery store or walking towards me on the street. I was good at opening the convo but never could seal the deal. Anyway, my friend told me to try myspace and facebook dating because practically every girl I see when I'm out in public either has myspace or facebook, and there's no worrying about approaching her. Have you tried that?