Is separation really just divorce?

[LookinFWD]

Alcoholic or not, dry drunk, recovering for life whatever

you want to call me my wife wants me to separate and

it is mostly because we argue in front of the children I

would say, certainly other issues, maybe drinking a bit

but she wants me gone

 

I do not think it is a good idea.

 

She won't go to joint therapy, says I need to go and get help with emotions, I am to blame for this ultimatum.

 

I am saying ok thanks I can see that this really needs to be fixed

it is an emergency lets go for therapy together, do whatever

it takes. She is saying no, this is all your fault get out

 

I think being separated is damaging to the kids, costly and

only going to lead to divorce

 

She is the one who wants this and is making all the threats

 

I said I will not drink, I will get individual help and when she finally

comes around to getting joint therapy I will be elated but I do not

want to move out

 

That is exactly what is going down. It is like a twisted power play

on her side and it is all about me leaving, renting for a year, "playing divorce" like playing house I guess

 

I am drained and pissed by this and just need her to calm down,

take a moment to stop this freight train of madness which I calling

the "separation demand"

 

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic

for thinking this?

[Tripper]

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic

for thinking this?

 

LFWD, Great on making 30 days sober. Can you do it for 130 days? 230?? 330??.. I ask because this seems like a major issue for your wife and you tend to be defensive.

Your major issue is separation vs. divorce. So in some ways I'm not sure the both of you are actually on the same problem page.

Also I get the impression that she's pretty much made up her mind. She wants to separate.

I think you need to ask her exactly what she hopes to get out of separation. Not the general "I need space" stuff, but stuff like the home environment would be better without you half cut or I need to be on my own to work out my anger issues towards you etc... IOW what's a concrete and compelling reason to separate. I would also suggest that since she wants to separate, while you're willing to contribute to child support, you shouldn't be on the hook for all the bills regarding the house. She should pay half of those...

If she can't pony up answers to those kind of questions then you may as well just go for divorce and save yourself prolonged agony in limbo..

[redblack66]

She won't go to joint therapy, says I need to go and get help with emotions, I am to blame for this ultimatum.

 

Just don't take all the blame. Being there.

 

I am saying ok thanks I can see that this really needs to be fixed

it is an emergency lets go for therapy together, do whatever

it takes. She is saying no, this is all your fault get out

 

I DON'T want to mess up your thoughts, but one of the signs of a cheating wife is when she blames everything on the husband.

I am not saying this is the case; I am just saying that this is one of the signs. I read somewhere a list of such signs. Search on the internet.

 

That is exactly what is going down. It is like a twisted power play

on her side and it is all about me leaving, renting for a year, "playing divorce" like playing house I guess

 

Just do not leave the house before you talk to a lawyer. I had and still have the same problem.

 

I did the following. I asked my wife to write a note that she would like me out of the house. She refused to write such because she did not want to take the responsibility, and perhaps was thinking that one day the kids would learn that daddy did not leave them, and it was mommy's idea.

 

I am drained and pissed by this and just need her to calm down,

take a moment to stop this freight train of madness which I calling

the "separation demand"

 

She will come down if you play well, but this is up to you. You are likely to be emotionally drained.

 

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic

for thinking this?

 

I agree with you, but again be very careful as each case is very specific.

[blind_otter]

 

She won't go to joint therapy, says I need to go and get help with emotions, I am to blame for this ultimatum.

 

I am saying ok thanks I can see that this really needs to be fixed

it is an emergency lets go for therapy together, do whatever

it takes. She is saying no, this is all your fault get out

 

I think being separated is damaging to the kids, costly and

only going to lead to divorce

 

Separation doesn't necessarily lead to divorce. It's a time to rethink everything about your relationship, the choices that you have made to get you where you are today, and the new, different, better choices you can make in the future to repair the damage that has been done.

 

I said I will not drink, I will get individual help and when she finally

comes around to getting joint therapy I will be elated but I do not

want to move out

 

Take those steps. Do what you need to do without trying to think about the ends that you are trying to achieve. This is about becoming a healthier person - and that should be with or without your wife by your side.

 

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic

for thinking this?

 

Well this is black and white, all-or-nothing thinking. IMO a sudden divorce would be more traumatic to the children. But that's just my opinion. My parents had their issues and talked about divorce when I was young. What was beneficial in that situation was witnessing the steps they took together to remedy the situation and come to terms with their differences. BTW, my Dad was an alcoholic. It was a major issue for mom.

[Kasan]

Women usually give clues that they are unhappy in a marriage.

 

Usually, divorce or separation is the very last resort for them and when they want them, they usually mean they are pretty much done in a marriage. It doesn't matter whether you think it is wise or not--it is what she wants and needs. She is willing to let a 14 year marriage go.

 

The best thing that you can do for yourself right now is to get into counseling ASAP, stop your drinking and work on yourself. Use this as a kick in the butt to make yourself a better man. Truthfully, will it be enough for her...I dunno.

 

And you can pass off the drinking as being inconsequential and that you can stop at any time, but it is a huge issue for your wife. How many of the fights stemmed from your drinking?

 

Separating to spare the kids from the fighting might not be a bad idea. You both can have some space to gain some clarity on the situation.

 

I am sorry to be harsh here, but it would be interesting to hear things from her side. She is very angry for a reason.

[Ronni_W]

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic for thinking this?

 

No, you are not a lunatic

 

I understand that you are drained and exhausted and depleted. If at all possible, try to do something positive to refresh and re-energize your mind and heart.

 

I guess the thing is, in YOUR own mind, what are the *practical* differences between divorcing now, or in 6 or 12 months?

 

You seem to have a thought that "getting the papers signed" now will somehow be easier on the kids. How, exactly? (Again, not asking you to answer here...just something for you to consider on a personal level.)

 

Forcing a divorce now, when your wife is totally willing to give you the chance you need, where she rides out a period for you to get sober and emotionally healthy -- that doesn't mean you have any true "power", you know?

 

Whether you divorce now or later, you'll still be living apart - with all the financial resources that involves. The kids will see the situation pretty much the same -- and again, will take their cue from their Mom and Dad.

 

She is NOT "threatening" you...she is telling you what YOU need to do, and asking you to do it, so that you guys have a snowball's hope in Hades of being one family living under one roof.

 

You will go under - and likely start drinking again - if you allow your thoughts to portray YOU as the only victim here.

 

God bless.

[LookinFWD]

Thanks Tripper I agree with you and the other posters that she has

made up her mind. Since she won't get joint counseling and will not

answer the questions or give concrete answers I think I will just go

ahead and help her to end it. Yes I can be drink free and have for years

at time in the past and don't see any reason to start now, especially with

needing to move on after 14 married years. I need to get in the best shape possible and don't need a beer belly that's for sure!

 

Thanks to all. I feel a lot better. What a great site this is. I will try to

see if she will respect and accept my wish to solve our problems progressively and without a forced coersive separation. If not there

are other fish in the sea

 

 

 

 

LFWD, Great on making 30 days sober. Can you do it for 130 days? 230?? 330??.. I ask because this seems like a major issue for your wife and you tend to be defensive.

Your major issue is separation vs. divorce. So in some ways I'm not sure the both of you are actually on the same problem page.

Also I get the impression that she's pretty much made up her mind. She wants to separate.

I think you need to ask her exactly what she hopes to get out of separation. Not the general "I need space" stuff, but stuff like the home environment would be better without you half cut or I need to be on my own to work out my anger issues towards you etc... IOW what's a concrete and compelling reason to separate. I would also suggest that since she wants to separate, while you're willing to contribute to child support, you shouldn't be on the hook for all the bills regarding the house. She should pay half of those...

If she can't pony up answers to those kind of questions then you may as well just go for divorce and save yourself prolonged agony in limbo..

[LookinFWD]

No way am I the victim Ronni nor do I want to be. The victims are

the children if anyone is. Maybe there is no victim but it aint me

 

To answer your question and maybe to help other guys facing a

get out ultimatum the quicker we split the faster the kids will be

in a new house with their mom. This means they can get on with their

routinues as soon as possible. I want them to stay in the house we

have but that is not going to work.

 

I live in a place that is for families. If I am going to be single

oh I am 42 by the way I am going to want to make new friends

and live in place conducive to that if that is my new life.

 

We need to sell our house so that my wife will have money to buy

a new one. It takes time to sell and buy a house

 

Why wife wants to stay in the house, not pay a single bill and

for me to find an apartment for up to a year. There are no short

term leases and there is no "when I am convinced you are ok you

can come home" agreement.

 

I have paid all the bills for 15 years and she wants me to continue and

also pay another complete mortgage for a year on another apartment.

 

I've got to stop posting and hogging up the internet space:)

 

 

 

No, you are not a lunatic

 

I understand that you are drained and exhausted and depleted. If at all possible, try to do something positive to refresh and re-energize your mind and heart.

 

I guess the thing is, in YOUR own mind, what are the *practical* differences between divorcing now, or in 6 or 12 months?

 

You seem to have a thought that "getting the papers signed" now will somehow be easier on the kids. How, exactly? (Again, not asking you to answer here...just something for you to consider on a personal level.)

 

Forcing a divorce now, when your wife is totally willing to give you the chance you need, where she rides out a period for you to get sober and emotionally healthy -- that doesn't mean you have any true "power", you know?

 

Whether you divorce now or later, you'll still be living apart - with all the financial resources that involves. The kids will see the situation pretty much the same -- and again, will take their cue from their Mom and Dad.

 

She is NOT "threatening" you...she is telling you what YOU need to do, and asking you to do it, so that you guys have a snowball's hope in Hades of being one family living under one roof.

 

You will go under - and likely start drinking again - if you allow your thoughts to portray YOU as the only victim here.

 

God bless.

[GeminiWoman]

To me a divorce is healthier than a prolonged separation. Am I a lunatic

for thinking this?

 

Although I wouldn't say you are a lunatic for thinking a divorce is healthier than a separation, it really does appear you are about to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

Here's the thing....right now your wife is so angry and hurt and possibly scared that all she can think of is how much she needs to get away from you and the marriage. The fact that she is asking for a separation and not a divorce is a GOOD thing. She may be thinking that once the tension of living together is gone you will both be able to see things more clearly and fix the problems. She probably needs a lot more than 30 days 'good behavior' to feel confident that you have made real and permanent changes. The problems in the marriage have probably been going on for years and 30 days is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

Many people reconcile after a separation. Your kids will be fine as long as you both handle it maturity and dignity. Trust me, if you gave them a vote - separation, then possible reconciliation or go directly to divorce, they would most assuredly choose separate with a chance of reconciliation.

 

I left my husband about 5 months ago (married 18 years). I was done and refused any more counseling. Although, the 'issues' have not been fixed to date, he handled the separation with a lot of grace and kindness towards me. Now that the 'smoke' has cleared and I've have some breathing space,I would seriously consider reconciling if he was sincere in owning up to his own issues (yes, I have mine as well) and was willing to come together to redefine our marriage in a way that is good for both of us. The ONLY reason I would be willing to do this is because he treated me well during the long process of separating and these last five months. Had he demanded we go directly to divorce (actually, in our state you are required to live separately for a year anyway) there would be little chance of reconciling at this point. You can't 'force' her to remain married to you but you could greatly increase your chances of getting back together by treating her with respect. If you lash out now with ultimatums, all you are going to do is give her evidence that she is right in leaving you. I'm not saying you should let her walk all over you. By all means, make sure you have protected yourself legally but my advice to you is don't burn any bridges. Good luck.

[Trimmer]

This got long...

 

In my opinion a quick break with the most limited transition will be the best for the children so I think I will tell her I will not move out and we should go directly into a divorce with a mediator.

 

Does anyone agree with a long multi living arrangement separation causing more disruption to innocent children than a quick divorce.

I think both situations are hugely disruptive to the children and their lifestyle, and agonizing over which is more disruptive than the other is a relatively minor point, especially in the context of using that as a pivot point to decide whether to stay in your marriage and try to reconcile, or immediately give up all hope and bail out. I'm not even sure you can confidently characterize either option as truly less "disruptive" than the other, but even if you could, the difference either way would be so very uncertain that I do think you are a little crazy if you are using that as the only reason you are intending to divorce immediately.

 

Are you ready to hang it up, to end the marriage? You sound ambivalent at best, and even maybe a little eager to get out the door. A thought just occurred to me, and I don't have time to go back through all your posts right now, but I don't recall you telling us how your marriage was, what you liked about your wife back when things were working (if they ever were?) what your vision is for what your marriage could be, or what you would grieve or mourn about losing, even if that's just a memory of how good things were in the past.

 

What have the last 14 years been like for you? What have they been like for her?

 

Do you want to stay in this marriage?

 

Even in talking about your changes, you "told her I would focus all my energy on preventing a divorce especially with the kids in mind", yet nowhere did you speak about fixing your marriage. "Preventing the divorce" is appropriately your first hurdle, but it seems to me what your wife is working on is imagining a better relationship in the future, and that's a different thing from just preventing the divorce.

 

Now, she may or may not be able to imagine that better future relationship with you, and this is really the thing that your future with her hinges upon.

 

Prior to her telling me to get out when she said don't drink in front of the children I told her to buzz off, I work hard I am going to drink beer and watch football today, etc

I'm going to take a guess here, and imagine that just the act of stopping drinking - even if you are permanently successful - may not be enough to turn you into the man that she imagines in her better future. Even if you stop, are you still the kind of guy who will tell her to "buzz off" if she tries to talk to you about something that is concerning her? You, yourself, put such an emphasis on what is best for the kids... When she tried to do that, you shut her down.

 

What kind of person, what kind of relationship, what kind of husband do you think she would need to see in her future to want to change course?

 

If it was simply the fact of your drinking that was the problem, you would have solved it by stopping. She isn't able to see the person you are, the way you interact with her, as something she can live with in the future.

 

Again, whether she could change her opinion of you is unknown, but you see, just stopping drinking isn't the change she needs.

 

...the quicker we split the faster the kids will be in a new house with their mom. This means they can get on with their routinues as soon as possible.

The kids are completely innocent and deserve the least amount of disruption as possible. In my opinion that is my wife working together with me (despite my greater share of the past problems) and working out our problems as a family in our marital home with me drink free.

 

If she says no then I say for the children a quick divorce that lands the

kids in a house with their mother as quickly as possible is better than a drawn out separation

I think your statement is too simplistic as you have put it. If you mean a separation where you remain angry, uncertain, unfocused, etc. then you may be right. But I think a separation where the partners really work with an intent to better themselves and the relationship, with the possibility of reconciliation, offers better hope in the long run (at least some hope) than an immediate divorce, which cuts off all possibility of remaining a family unit.

 

I think in considering what is "better for the kids," you are only imagining the transition from the existing life to the new life, and imagining that once that transition is over, it will all be done. Thus your interest in forcing that transition to happen quickly, and avoidance of the separation on the grounds that it would be "long and drawn out..."

 

You need to consider divorce as a thing that your kids will carry with them for a long time, into their adult lives. A divorce isn't a flash that occurs in a moment of time; it is a weight that we carry forward into and through our lives. That weight, that loss, can be heavier or lighter - harder or easier to bear - depending on the emotional and developmental support children receive, and the level of cooperation and support the parents can demonstrate in their new roles as parents-but-not-spouses.

 

But the thing is, the vast majority of the feeling of loss is not caused by the big flash at the moment of the divorce, but by the carrying around of that weight afterward, as all the realities of the new life set in, sometimes over a long period of time. Making it a "quick and done" divorce doesn't mean that you will have any easier time of helping your children through the next years of their lives as they adapt, grieve, process, and learn to live with it.

 

And each child is different - my daughter (now 10) processed it right away, and has asked questions and raised discussions when issues came up for her; I feel like she got on an even keel relatively quickly, even though it was devastating for her immediately after we told them. On the other hand, my son (now 8) seemed like it was not a huge deal initially, but I believe only now - around 2 years later - is he beginning to really feel the effects, grieve, and have difficulties expressing himself, etc.

 

Now, I agree that there are things about a separation that are scary and uncertain, and that uncertainty can be very unsettling to kids, but again, here you set the tone. If you are grousing around, acting unstable yourself, complaining, etc. - if you have given up hope - then that will create a great air of uncertainty for the kids. They need to know that you and your wife - individually - are in control of yourselves, and that they can still count on both of you, and can still trust they will be loved by both of you. This is paramount, and it's why kids are so damaged by parental conflict - it casts them adrift from the parents that they count on as their anchors.

 

So, given all of the above, I suggest 2 things:

 

- if there is hope, then I think you may need to consider opening yourself up to making changes that go deeper than just the single behavioral change of stopping drinking. I am going on a guess here, but I still bet that what she would need from you goes deeper, and is more than that one behavioral change.

 

- if you can somehow discern whether there is hope of her reconciling with "a changed you" at some time in the future, then you could enter a separation with some hope, and with a focus, and things to work on. I would normally think a counselor might be the right help the two of you have this discussion, but since she is willing to go to mediation, maybe this is something you can discuss in mediation. At least trying to have a discussion of "what is the end game" should be a reasonable topic for mediation.

 

In the end, I will agree with you this much: if there is no hope on her side, and if she is already decided on divorce, then I believe she owes it to you and the kids to make that clear to you now, so you don't all go through an unnecessary separation.

 

On the other hand, if there is some possibility of reconciliation on her part, if she can see a possible future with a changed you, and if you are willing to do some hard work that goes deeper than just a behavioral change to your drinking, then I think the separation offers some hope. It may still end up in divorce, due to decisions, change, or a failure to change on the part of either or both of you, but if you are both willing to consider reconciliation as a possibility, and can both envision a future together - even if it's remote - then might you not owe it to your kids to at least explore that possibility?

 

But only if you want it, too.

[GeminiWoman]

 

In the end, I will agree with you this much: if there is no hope on her side, and if she is already decided on divorce, then I believe she owes it to you and the kids to make that clear to you now, so you don't all go through an unnecessary separation.

 

On the other hand, if there is some possibility of reconciliation on her part, if she can see a possible future with a changed you, and if you are willing to do some hard work that goes deeper than just a behavioral change to your drinking, then I think the separation offers some hope. It may still end up in divorce, due to decisions, change, or a failure to change on the part of either or both of you, but if you are both willing to consider reconciliation as a possibility, and can both envision a future together - even if it's remote - then might you not owe it to your kids to at least explore that possibility?

 

But only if you want it, too.

 

Excellent post, Trimmer. As a woman who is going through the separation process right at this very moment (at my request), your comments are dead on. Divorce is a long, long painful process for all involved, even under the best of circumstances.

 

I would only add that sometimes women are dead certain the marriage is over and they are done because, quite frankly, in the midst of the stress of a failing marriage sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. There are several men on this forum who can attest to the fact that their wives were certain the marriage was over only to discover they still enough feelings for their husbands after they left to give it a second chance (I believe one of those men is 'ilmw'. I have read his story and he handled the whole separation thing in such a way that it left the door open for his wife to come back and she did. His story is a great guide to how to properly handle a separation if you want a shot at reconciling with your spouse.).

 

The choice is yours - either go along with what your wife is offering (while protecting yourself financially and legally) and hope she will see the good in the marriage once she gets a little distance or tell her if she leaves it's over. Chances are great she will still leave and that door will be closed for good. It's your call. I know from your perspective you think that divorce might be the lesser of two evils but trust me, it's not. Either way you are going to experience a lot of pain. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes we need that pain as a catalyst for growth. The bottom line is your wife is telling you that the marriage has become intolerable to her and the only way she feels she will be able to survive emotionally is to take a break from it. Once she is out, she is likely to see her contribution to the martial problems. She will also get a chance to see that you are willing and able to make permanent changes in regards to the drinking issue. In my mind, how can that be a bad thing? Clearly, staying in the marriage and hoping things will get better is no longer an option for her.

[LookinFWD]

Both Trimmer and Gemini

 

Thank you for your posts. Trimmer you are very smart and wow can you

write. I am pretty blown away but most of these posts. You guys are pretty knowledgable about things I have no clue.

 

My whole life I have sort of been a dumb jock so reading the insight I clearly don't have emotionally is shocking.

 

Either way I guess most of this is I just don't want to leave and get a one

year lease. I don't want to be humiliated that I am a bad guy by my family. I want to do everything but don't want to distance myself from the kids. My relationship with them despite what my wife says is good and getting better all the time.

 

I think I understand you when you say pain is sometimes good,

I think my wife really believes that. I don't agree and think it is a shame.

In my opinion women are too fickle and give up too easily, I think also that

my wife is guided by her friends most of which are honestly in what they

call bad marriages, are already divorced and one is a widow. Misery loves company that I truly believe. My wifes therapist could be what some have refered to as non marriage friendly. There are alternatives to separation and divorce and it is called working on it. My wife has my full attention believe me.

 

Do I sound defensive? Yes I do because I am. I feel that while there are

problems on both sides we can work them out without me moving out. I am advocating that maybe "separation as a tool for saving marriages" is

divisive and because it is normally a precursor to divorce anyway just out and out flawed. I think it simple starts a snow ball that can't stop once it

starts rolling. Plenty of man made inventions suck and to me separation sucks big time.

 

Enough complaining.....I am feel backed into a corner by my wife and all the advise I seem to get is "give her space", you gotta do what she wants", " get your act together if you want her to take you back". What about her just letting me stay?

 

I just feel bullied and don't like it but I guess the whole thing takes it roots from women being bullied by a bunch of non progressive convervatives men and the terrible lack of equal rights for women for so

many years.

 

Oh it is just so frustrating this thing between and

 

I simply do not want to get separated. I don't want to do that to the

kids. I don't want to leave my house. I don't want to be humilated. I don't

want to pay 2 mortages, 2 electric bills, 2 heating bills, 2 cable bills,

all the insurance for the house, cars, provide health care, buy all the food,

pay all of the kids educational expenses, pay for therapists, pay for mediators, all if then my wife decides that she now wants out or the grass is greener with some other guy after 15 years of providing absolutely everything. If I was to move out I would feel that I would have to get a really good place because I don't want my kids to see me living in any

way other than I really should.

 

There are ass wipes out there that cheat on their wives. Some guy across

the street told his wife he didn't love her anymore and just walked out on

a 4 and 6 son and daughter. I am not one of these monsters

 

Ok I think I have vented enough and thanks very much again for your

incredible posts

[PWSX3]

Something else for you to think about, us as guys are fixers, we want to fix something when it is broken. You see your marriage as something that is broke & you are trying to "fix" it but some things we just can't fix.

 

Woman look at it all kinds of ways, & I have a feeling they do a lot better job of it then us guys do.

Just like my W your W isn't thinking about you & her, she is thinking what can I do to get a way? When my W moved out there was no other person, she just wanted to find herself. We had been together since after high school & she thought I treated her badly. I really feel part of it was her friends telling her how bad I was & she could do better. I have to agree I was doing things wrong but part of that is how I was raised, how I thought a marriage should be. Now that I have had some time to think, read, read, read, & learn & can see I needed to change. It wasn't just for our marriage but it was for me & whoever it might be down the road. My W moved back after 7 months & I feel I learned more from the separation then she did.

 

When your kid (small ones) runs from you & you chase after them what do they do? Most of the time they will run farther or faster. The more you chase the more they run & that is what your W is doing right now. The more you try to "FIX" your relationship the more she is going to run & there is nothing you can do about it except chase her away......