support or not support while in IC

[frannie]

I don't want to see any woman, OW or not, sad and depressed. I want to see them strong and happy. It is obvious that for many women, remaining in a relationship with MM is what is making them sad and depressed. Therefore I say, stop being a sad and depressed OW and become a strong and happy independent woman. Nothing wrong with that advice IMO!

 

I feel the same way. Being in an affair can be a relatively good relationship compared to many, dependent on how often you get to see someone, whether the times you spend with them are happy ones, whether you're getting something out of it.

 

When it isn't like that, or becomes unfulfilling or you feel it's going nowhere and you need it to... you just have to move on. The point is knowing when you've reached that place, and then acting on it.

[frannie]

So having balls is continuing a long time affair while still at home with Wife and kids?

 

Sorry but if making your mind up and leaving does not mean a person has balls then staying and continuing the lying and deceit does? I don't get that!?!?

 

I don't think either situation means the man in question has 'balls'. In fact quite the contrary, as I'm sure my other posts make clear. There's nothing 'ballsy' about having an affair: it's all about cowardice and lying.

[JamesM]

"If he is afraid to break up his family, then he must not have enough love for you"

 

This is exactly what I don't get. Are you really telling me that if someone loves someone "enough", then they'd not be bothered somehow about their own family..? Does romantic love really make you less concerned with your children's welfare?

 

First, it has been established that he has no commitment to his wife. Any MM who has an affair has proven that. And I don't say that to put myself above them...far from it.

 

Second, Mino's MM according to her, is not just concerned about hurting his children, he is now suddenly afraid that he will hurt his wife. This is his main fear it seems to me. He does not have the "cajones" to tell her that it is over...if it really is in his mind. Perhaps a part of him really wants reconciliation with his wife. Yet he hangs on to his OW. As you know full well, it is easier to have an affair in private and keep the family. It is much harder to be honest and leave the wife.

 

The problem here is not the children. It is the courage to face the wife and say good bye. From what I read on this Board, many MM have this problem, and this has nothing to do with OCD or any other emotional/mental/physical disorder.

 

When I say he does not love her enough, I mean it as it sounds. If he loved her more than his wife, then it would not take 3 1/2 years and hours of counseling. It simply takes a decision. I can understand if this was less than a year into the affair, but based on my reading this Board, if this affair is going to lead into an honest relationship, then by now it should have.

 

I think he does not have enough love and commitment to his new lover to make that switch. I am not saying that it is easy, but if no decision has been made in 3 1/2 years, then as many OWs will say, it is quite unlikely that simple counseling will help.

 

BUT....if there is any chance of this going anywhere, the OW needs to be out of the picture so that the MM can make his own decisions about getting his life in order without outside pressures and influences.

[Mino]

First, it has been established that he has no commitment to his wife. Any MM who has an affair has proven that. And I don't say that to put myself above them...far from it.

 

Second, Mino's MM according to her, is not just concerned about hurting his children, he is now suddenly afraid that he will hurt his wife. This is his main fear it seems to me. He does not have the "cajones" to tell her that it is over...if it really is in his mind. Perhaps a part of him really wants reconciliation with his wife. Yet he hangs on to his OW. As you know full well, it is easier to have an affair in private and keep the family. It is much harder to be honest and leave the wife.

 

The problem here is not the children. It is the courage to face the wife and say good bye. From what I read on this Board, many MM have this problem, and this has nothing to do with OCD or any other emotional/mental/physical disorder.

 

When I say he does not love her enough, I mean it as it sounds. If he loved her more than his wife, then it would not take 3 1/2 years and hours of counseling. It simply takes a decision. I can understand if this was less than a year into the affair, but based on my reading this Board, if this affair is going to lead into an honest relationship, then by now it should have.

 

I think he does not have enough love and commitment to his new lover to make that switch. I am not saying that it is easy, but if no decision has been made in 3 1/2 years, then as many OWs will say, it is quite unlikely that simple counseling will help.

 

BUT....if there is any chance of this going anywhere, the OW needs to be out of the picture so that the MM can make his own decisions about getting his life in order without outside pressures and influences.

Yes James that makes sense, but his ocd does come into play when the day comes up that he has decided on, thay is where the fear attacts come in on doomsday, chaos, bad things will happen. Then he cant go through with it. It still is also about the child since he adores his child, But I do agree with you, its easier to stay in the situation since his wife, who is fully aware of the A and I are allowing this to continue.

[Impudent Oyster]

Then he cant go through with it. It still is also about the child since he adores his child, But I do agree with you, its easier to stay in the situation since his wife, who is fully aware of the A and I are allowing this to continue.

 

Do you know for a fact that she's fully aware of the A or did the MM just tell you that? Have you heard that from her lips, you've spoken to her? She knows it's ongoing or she knows he had an affair but it's over now?

 

You might be surprised by what she does or doesn't "know".

[Impudent Oyster]

Don't you think that's a good reason to get counselling? Because I do.

 

Absolutely. This guy is definitely in need of counseling, and lots of it!

[Mino]

Do you know for a fact that she's fully aware of the A or did the MM just tell you that? Have you heard that from her lips, you've spoken to her? She knows it's ongoing or she knows he had an affair but it's over now?

 

You might be surprised by what she does or doesn't "know".

Gee Io, now I have an itch to call her and find out what does she know.... I know she does not know its been over 3 years,

[overandout]

First, it has been established that he has no commitment to his wife. Any MM who has an affair has proven that. And I don't say that to put myself above them...far from it.

 

Second, Mino's MM according to her, is not just concerned about hurting his children, he is now suddenly afraid that he will hurt his wife. This is his main fear it seems to me. He does not have the "cajones" to tell her that it is over...if it really is in his mind. Perhaps a part of him really wants reconciliation with his wife. Yet he hangs on to his OW. As you know full well, it is easier to have an affair in private and keep the family. It is much harder to be honest and leave the wife.

 

The problem here is not the children. It is the courage to face the wife and say good bye. From what I read on this Board, many MM have this problem, and this has nothing to do with OCD or any other emotional/mental/physical disorder.

 

When I say he does not love her enough, I mean it as it sounds. If he loved her more than his wife, then it would not take 3 1/2 years and hours of counseling. It simply takes a decision. I can understand if this was less than a year into the affair, but based on my reading this Board, if this affair is going to lead into an honest relationship, then by now it should have.

 

I think he does not have enough love and commitment to his new lover to make that switch. I am not saying that it is easy, but if no decision has been made in 3 1/2 years, then as many OWs will say, it is quite unlikely that simple counseling will help.

 

BUT....if there is any chance of this going anywhere, the OW needs to be out of the picture so that the MM can make his own decisions about getting his life in order without outside pressures and influences.

 

 

Just to say that I agree wirth this entirely.

 

Love is often the catalyst for doing "unpalatable" things and leaving a comfortable domestic routine and upsetting all those involved is not something one does, unless they are deeply in love with the person they are giving it up for.

 

If the mm goes into counselling it often helps him and his spouse and refocuses him on his marriage and family. If the OW is hoping that counselling will make the xmm "see the light", she will be disappointed.

Anyway, who the hell wants a man who has to be counselled into leaving home? Who wants someone who is so unsure of himself and what he wants; he will most likely be a flip flopper and cause anguish that way, in the unlikely event that he ever leaves home.

[frannie]

Mino's MM according to her, is not just concerned about hurting his children, he is now suddenly afraid that he will hurt his wife. This is his main fear it seems to me. He does not have the "cajones" to tell her that it is over...if it really is in his mind. Perhaps a part of him really wants reconciliation with his wife. Yet he hangs on to his OW.

 

Right, well I see those points, and that would make Mino's situation very different from my own. I am always wary of affairs where there is still romantic feeling or the possibility of it with the W, because if that's there, its a whole different situation.

 

I think Mino, that you need to step right away from this and let him work it all out for himself. Just to give a comparison, my MM says there is no worry about hurting his W, yet even so, he and I are only in contact via email now, and we're not discussing what goes on in his counselling at all. It's really all his own business. Still a very sticky position to be in for the OW however, but I don't think NC is right for me (at the moment?) for reasons I've outlined elsewhere.

 

What are you thinking at the moment, Mino?

[overandout]

I never said he does not care for his w, and of coarse he still has love for her, she is the mother of his child. But also understand I am not deluding myself to think he loves me. He does love me, this I know.

 

 

Mino, I really feel for you.

I do not doubt that he does love you, but he also is not leaving his family.

You are clearly not content with all this indecision especially as he has tried 9 times to leave.

Try and ignore the few people here that continuously snipe at my posts, I do:D

 

It may be best for you if you back right off and let him sort himself out once and for all (assuming he can).

It must be excruciating for you if he has tried to leave so many times and then hasn't followed through.

 

Can I just add that if he truly wanted to be with you, then he has the option of making that happen. It does happen you know. Not very often bcause most mm are just toying with their OW and do not want to leave their families; in short life at home isn't that bad. Some mm will tell their OW that he doesn't love the wife as a ploy to make them stay.

At least you acknowledge that your mm has feelings for his wife.

 

I do not want to see you still here in 3 or 6 months time getting hurt and frsutrated by this man's indecision. Only you can decide the best way forward for you, but your mm's dithering isn't doing your emotional health any good whatsoever. If you can back off with total NC or whatever suits you, it might be a way forward.

 

If your mm is truly in love with you he will leave home to be with you--bottom line.

 

All the best whatever you decide anyway.

[head.heart& hand]

[quote name=If the mm goes into counselling it often helps him and his spouse and refocuses him on his marriage and family.

 

Despite my circumstances----I believe this is a good thing

 

If the OW is hoping that counselling will make the xmm "see the light", she will be disappointed".Anyway, who the hell wants a man who has to be counselled into leaving home? Who wants someone who is so unsure of himself and what he wants; he will most likely be a flip flopper and cause anguish that way, in the unlikely event that he ever leaves home.

 

 

 

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room"—that’s a quote from my counselor (who I think is really sharp, I really respect him). It's part of the human condition. In reading many posts here, I find nonsensical judgments such as "if he really loved you –(m-o-r-e- than the w), he would leave,” and all sorts of related clichés. I think the mm’s internal and conflicting struggle is often times, just that, filled with ambivalence in which the mm should be encouraged to work through with the counselor regardless of whether or not the outcome of his sessions result in favor of the ow or his w.

 

I am not in communication with my mm and won’t be unless he takes the final legal step to divorce. I am confident that I will hold my ground. Although sad and feeling a void, in many ways I am relieved to know that

one way or the other, this relationship is moving forward ( and yes, moving forward includes the possibility/ likelihood of it ending). If my mm comes to me in 3-6 weeks and tells me he just can’t bring himself to follow through with a divorce, I can accept that (I’m anticipating that). I would PREFER that he works through this decision with a counselor, EVEN it’s in his w’s favor. The decision has to be the right one for him ( the right one for me was to to say , no more to"this" relationship). After all, despite having moved out over two years ago and establishing a separate residence, he’s been showing me (all along) that he has been unable to take THE final step ( which has impacted my respect for him as well). At this point, not making a decision is a decision, which is telling me its time to move forward without him.

[frannie]

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room"—that’s a quote from my counselor (who I think is really sharp, I really respect him). It's part of the human condition. In reading many posts here, I find nonsensical judgments such as "if he really loved you –(m-o-r-e- than the w), he would leave,” and all sorts of related clichés. I think the mm’s internal and conflicting struggle is often times, just that, filled with ambivalence in which the mm should be encouraged to work through with the counselor regardless of whether or not the outcome of his sessions result in favor of the ow or his w.

 

I am not in communication with my mm and won’t be unless he takes the final legal step to divorce. I am confident that I will hold my ground. Although sad and feeling a void, in many ways I am relieved to know that

one way or the other, this relationship is moving forward ( and yes, moving forward includes the possibility/ likelihood of it ending). If my mm comes to me in 3-6 weeks and tells me he just can’t bring himself to follow through with a divorce, I can accept that (I’m anticipating that). I would PREFER that he works through this decision with a counselor, EVEN it’s in his w’s favor. The decision has to be the right one for him ( the right one for me was to to say , no more to"this" relationship). After all, despite having moved out over two years ago and establishing a separate residence, he’s been showing me (all along) that he has been unable to take THE final step ( which has impacted my respect for him as well). At this point, not making a decision is a decision, which is telling me its time to move forward without him.

 

wow... apart from that final section about having moved out two years ago, I could have written all of that, since I feel entirely the same way!

 

I'm also very impressed with this statement from your counsellor:

 

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room"

 

That really does sum it up, doesn't it?

[head.heart& hand]

so in brief, in case my answer to the question of support or no support while in IC is-

 

Initially, to provide support by:

• encouraging the professional support of a counselor.

• resisting the urge to be a biased armchair counselor with an agenda

 

You should seek professional support as well, by raising your thread question --I think its a really good one--! I'm assuming your level of support will change as your mm moves through the process and you'll want to be both compassionate and disciplined on your end ( I would also assume some level of communication when things are further along). Its all so delicate--a definite conversation with a counselor.

[overandout]

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room"—that’s a quote from my counselor (who I think is really sharp, I really respect him). It's part of the human condition. In reading many posts here, I find nonsensical judgments such as "if he really loved you –(m-o-r-e- than the w), he would leave,” and all sorts of related clichés. I think the mm’s internal and conflicting struggle is often times, just that, filled with ambivalence in which the mm should be encouraged to work through with the counselor regardless of whether or not the outcome of his sessions result in favor of the ow or his w.

 

I am not in communication with my mm and won’t be unless he takes the final legal step to divorce. I am confident that I will hold my ground. Although sad and feeling a void, in many ways I am relieved to know that

one way or the other, this relationship is moving forward ( and yes, moving forward includes the possibility/ likelihood of it ending). If my mm comes to me in 3-6 weeks and tells me he just can’t bring himself to follow through with a divorce, I can accept that (I’m anticipating that). I would PREFER that he works through this decision with a counselor, EVEN it’s in his w’s favor. The decision has to be the right one for him ( the right one for me was to to say , no more to"this" relationship). After all, despite having moved out over two years ago and establishing a separate residence, he’s been showing me (all along) that he has been unable to take THE final step ( which has impacted my respect for him as well). At this point, not making a decision is a decision, which is telling me its time to move forward without him.

 

 

So are you saying that if your mm leaves home it will have nothing to do with his love for you?

What is it all about then?

[head.heart& hand]

wow... apart from that final section about having moved out two years ago, I could have written all of that, since I feel entirely the same way!

 

I'm also very impressed with this statement from your counsellor:

 

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room" That really does sum it up, doesn't it?

 

Hi Frannie!

Yes--he's really good. I'm not suprised that you could relate as I actually thought of many of several your threads after meeting with my counsleor yesterday (first time, in quite some time). I also thought--WOAH, I've read things on here that run contrary to what my counselor suggests, which made me even more convinced that LS is a great sounding board, yet posters really should get professional advice first, then weigh in on LS.

 

I almost started a new thread with my counslelors quote ( copy and paste)-- if others want to weigh in on this , I will.

 

I think we're in similar places--I'll be seein' ya' round the L-shack!

[head.heart& hand]

So are you saying that if your mm leaves home it will have nothing to do with his love for you?

What is it all about then?

 

 

NO, that's not what I'm saying (obviously, I am the reason he left).

 

Although he was not fullfilled in his marriage, there is still love between them (don't you think this is true for many mm--I do)? This is very delicate--its not a competition of "If he loved me more---" ( somehow, that just sounds very immature to me). He loves us both, but (again) differently. In being separated for some time, he now needs to muster the courage to be honest with her about their future and what that will look like; renewed, indefinitely separated or divorced. Unless of course he just wants to keep the status quo, which he can do with his w, but not with me.

[overandout]

NO, that's not what I'm saying (obviously, I am the reason he left).

 

Although he was not fullfilled in his marriage, there is still love between them (don't you think this is true for many mm--I do)? This is very delicate--its not a competition of "If he loved me more---" ( somehow, that just sounds very immature to me). He loves us both, but (again) differently. In being separated for some time, he now needs to muster the courage to be honest with her about their future and what that will look like; renewed, indefinitely separated or divorced. Unless of course he just wants to keep the status quo, which he can do with his w, but not with me.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying.

Sorry I should have read your posts more carefully (already left home).

I can see why you commented on my post as you did. I maintain that a mm who is in love with his OW will leave home--depth of feelings etc. It sorts out the genuine from the cake eaters. It is arguable that those who stay married do so bcause they do not want to be with the OW in a full time committed relationship (not in love with her imo).

 

In your case, the fact that he has left is certainly a clear indication of his feelings for you. He has done the hard part by walking out.

AND I do agree that many mm have love for their wife and you acknowledge that. I have issues when it is not acknowledged.

 

Glad that you have taken the stand that basically it is "all or nothing" for you. Hope it works out for you.

[Mino]

Right, well I see those points, and that would make Mino's situation very different from my own. I am always wary of affairs where there is still romantic feeling or the possibility of it with the W, because if that's there, its a whole different situation.

 

I think Mino, that you need to step right away from this and let him work it all out for himself. Just to give a comparison, my MM says there is no worry about hurting his W, yet even so, he and I are only in contact via email now, and we're not discussing what goes on in his counselling at all. It's really all his own business. Still a very sticky position to be in for the OW however, but I don't think NC is right for me (at the moment?) for reasons I've outlined elsewhere.

 

What are you thinking at the moment, Mino?

Hi Frannie, Just want to clarify, he has no romantic love/ feeling for his w. He has love for her, he cares about her well being, and he does feel responsible for her. That is why he is also in ic. His happiness comes last. He feels he does not deserve to be happy. That is what he is working on, himself. To be able to make the choices in his life for himself. not live for other people. They have a child together, she takes care of the house, there is really not much marriage left, other then living together under one roof, and taking care of the child, just one big lie, really, and both are too afraid to make the move. She is not happy, not really. not in her soul, and how can he be, 3 year affair, is no fun anymore, its tiresome, and with his medical issue, he gets these fear attacks,

[Mino]

wow... apart from that final section about having moved out two years ago, I could have written all of that, since I feel entirely the same way!

 

I'm also very impressed with this statement from your counsellor:

 

"AMBIVALENCE fills my waiting room"

 

That really does sum it up, doesn't it?

Hi, thanks for your imput, That statement hurt what James wrote about if he really loved you.....more... I wish it were that cut and dry, but its not. Thats why I started this thread. It not a question of who he loves. I know he loves me. He does however, has a responsibility to his w for truth and closing the chapter on his m first. He should have done this a long time ago. I do not want to be the ow anymore, I been over it already from the 2 year on. I hate it, Its too to painful. But i love him. I feel his pain too. I know it is there. Nc is hard too, we see each other everyday at work. we miss each other when we dont see each other. But I know it best for me to back off completely, that is why i have made plans to leave the country for a month. I am so very fusterated , i feel like sometimes my hands are tied, like i am to weak to do the nc. my heart achs, really achs, its the worst feeling/pain in the world

[JamesM]

Hi, thanks for your imput, That statement hurt what James wrote about if he really loved you.....more... I wish it were that cut and dry, but its not. Thats why I started this thread.

 

Then if my statement hurt you, I want to apologize. Yes, it bothers me if that happens. While sometimes what I say may be my feelings, I really do not say it to hurt you.

 

When I say that "if he loved you...then he would choose you," I guess it is a simplistic statement to say that. What I should better say is that to me it seems that he should not have a problem of WHAT his decision should be, but how he wants to go about it.

 

I remember back when I dated my wife. We became engaged (the first time) mainly because she pressured me into it. It was not that I did not love her, but I wasn't sure that I had enough love or commitment to her to make a lifetime decision. Finally after a month of agony, I told her that I wanted to back out of the engagement due to the indecision I had. Her comment was.."Then we need to break up." My response was not what she expected..."Okay." This led to a month of...yes, ambivalence. But after a month, I knew what I wanted to date her, and she wanted to date me. There was no pressure from her. This time she wanted to be with me...not just married to me. And when I was ready, she would be ready. We dated for four more months and were reengaged. That was almost eighteen years ago. To this day...no matter what difficulties we encounter, I know that I made my own decision and I was not pushed into a marriage with her by anyone but myself.

 

My point is that this is what your MM needs. He needs to make this decision for himself...wherever it may lead.

 

If ambivalence is....

 

1: simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings (as attraction and repulsion) toward an object, person, or action

 

2 a: continual fluctuation (as between one thing and its opposite) b: uncertainty as to which approach to follow

 

...then the question is why is he ambivalent, and to whom is he ambivalent?

 

Again, I apologize for the hurt that my statements made. It truly does bother me when that happens.

[Mino]

Then if my statement hurt you, I want to apologize. Yes, it bothers me if that happens. While sometimes what I say may be my feelings, I really do not say it to hurt you.

 

When I say that "if he loved you...then he would choose you," I guess it is a simplistic statement to say that. What I should better say is that to me it seems that he should not have a problem of WHAT his decision should be, but how he wants to go about it.

 

I remember back when I dated my wife. We became engaged (the first time) mainly because she pressured me into it. It was not that I did not love her, but I wasn't sure that I had enough love or commitment to her to make a lifetime decision. Finally after a month of agony, I told her that I wanted to back out of the engagement due to the indecision I had. Her comment was.."Then we need to break up." My response was not what she expected..."Okay." This led to a month of...yes, ambivalence. But after a month, I knew what I wanted to date her, and she wanted to date me. There was no pressure from her. This time she wanted to be with me...not just married to me. And when I was ready, she would be ready. We dated for four more months and were reengaged. That was almost eighteen years ago. To this day...no matter what difficulties we encounter, I know that I made my own decision and I was not pushed into a marriage with her by anyone but myself.

 

My point is that this is what your MM needs. He needs to make this decision for himself...wherever it may lead.

 

If ambivalence is....

 

 

 

...then the question is why is he ambivalent, and to whom is he ambivalent?

 

Again, I apologize for the hurt that my statements made. It truly does bother me when that happens.

Thank you James, I do respect all your insight. I am thankful for that. Your statement hurt, but I understand why you said it. It makes logical sense to me, I wish everything were logical, in this R, it would be easier to deal with.

[frannie]

If ambivalence is....

 

1: simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings (as attraction and repulsion) toward an object, person, or action

 

2 a: continual fluctuation (as between one thing and its opposite) b: uncertainty as to which approach to follow

 

...then the question is why is he ambivalent, and to whom is he ambivalent?

 

Again, I apologize for the hurt that my statements made. It truly does bother me when that happens.

 

James just speaking for myself I think it's obvious that while you make clear statements about things you have no intention of causing anyone hurt.

 

I think that in the case of a MM considering whether to leave his family, then the second of your definitions fits. A man in that situation is looking at two courses of action, both of which he 'wants' to do, but both of which leads to loss of some kind. Hence the ambivalence.

 

Specifically: if he leaves his marriage, he can begin life with his OW, but in doing that he risks hurting his children, and of course reduced contact with them. If he stays married, he stays in close contact with his children, but loses his OW (if she's decided she no longer wants to be in the affair). The difficulty in making a decision is clear. And it's obviously much easier if the affair can continue and heads can remain in the sand.

[OWoman]

I think that in the case of a MM considering whether to leave his family, then the second of your definitions fits. A man in that situation is looking at two courses of action, both of which he 'wants' to do, but both of which leads to loss of some kind. Hence the ambivalence.

 

Specifically: if he leaves his marriage, he can begin life with his OW, but in doing that he risks hurting his children, and of course reduced contact with them. If he stays married, he stays in close contact with his children, but loses his OW (if she's decided she no longer wants to be in the affair). The difficulty in making a decision is clear. And it's obviously much easier if the affair can continue and heads can remain in the sand.

 

And the first often applies too. both with respect to the W - for whom he often feels some residual love, albeit not on the scale of the passion he feels for the OW, as well as long simmering anger and resentment - and towards the OW, whom he loves and worships on the one hand, but also resents on the other, for bringing such complications into his life.

 

Though, of course, most MM would probably deny that.

[OpenBook]

I think that in the case of a MM considering whether to leave his family, then the second of your definitions fits. A man in that situation is looking at two courses of action, both of which he 'wants' to do, but both of which leads to loss of some kind. Hence the ambivalence.

 

Specifically: if he leaves his marriage, he can begin life with his OW, but in doing that he risks hurting his children, and of course reduced contact with them. If he stays married, he stays in close contact with his children, but loses his OW (if she's decided she no longer wants to be in the affair). The difficulty in making a decision is clear. And it's obviously much easier if the affair can continue and heads can remain in the sand.

 

And the first often applies too. both with respect to the W - for whom he often feels some residual love, albeit not on the scale of the passion he feels for the OW, as well as long simmering anger and resentment - and towards the OW, whom he loves and worships on the one hand, but also resents on the other, for bringing such complications into his life.

 

Though, of course, most MM would probably deny that.

 

Yes! My nirvana! More clarity, without the vitriol! Thanks ladies - and James - for your thoughtfulness and intelligence. This is really helping me open my eyes.

[head.heart& hand]

 

Resentment, yes. Lets talk about that...

 

Don't you think this is especiallly true (the mm feeling resentful) when the ow finally says, no more of "this", after going along with "this" for some time?

 

One familiar Cycle:

• The OW grows increasingly more resentful that her mm has both the w and ow in his ilfe.

• The ow only knows only what the mm tells her about his m.

• Ow wrestles with trust. In mm not leaving his w, trust diminishes (was there more to their relationship than he told me---?

• OW calls it off due to her resentment.

• mm feels resentful that ow cut it off, as she went along for it for so long (and doesn't understand how complicated his situation is---)