support or not support while in IC

[overandout]

Actually, the OP stated specifically that he's "in counseling to find the courage to leave".

 

No one needs to see a counselor to know that NO ONE stays in an unhappy situation out of a "sense of duty", especially if they are truly in love with someone else. No one is that altruistic, they are, by nature, selfish.

 

He's staying because he wants to stay, not out of any phoney "sense of duty". That's a crock if I ever heard one.

 

 

Very wise words, but the trouble is that some OW whhere the mm won't leave home cannot bear to admit that the mm might actually care for/love his wife. The follow on is that he prefers his wife/family to the OW but some OW delude themslves that the mm is really in love with them (the OW) and not the wife. They kid themselves that the mm is doing something that he does not want to do.

Whereas in reality, the mm is doing what he wants to do and he wants to remain in his marriage. He still wants to sleep with his wife. If he has to, he will choose the wife and leave the OW out to dry. Some mm do this nicely and some don't.

In time the mm may find a more compliant OW or he may not and just concentrate on his family.

 

I subscribe to the belief that if a mm truly loves his OW then he will take steps to be with her in a committed and monogamous relationship. Isn't that what love is about (amongst other things) or am I missing something here. It is love that drives people to do things that they would not nomally do but for the power of their feelings. Or have I been reading to many Mills and Boon and Danielle Steel!

[Mino]

Very wise words, but the trouble is that some OW whhere the mm won't leave home cannot bear to admit that the mm might actually care for/love his wife. The follow on is that he prefers his wife/family to the OW but some OW delude themslves that the mm is really in love with them (the OW) and not the wife. They kid themselves that the mm is doing something that he does not want to do.

Whereas in reality, the mm is doing what he wants to do and he wants to remain in his marriage. He still wants to sleep with his wife. If he has to, he will choose the wife and leave the OW out to dry. Some mm do this nicely and some don't.

In time the mm may find a more compliant OW or he may not and just concentrate on his family.

 

I subscribe to the belief that if a mm truly loves his OW then he will take steps to be with her in a committed and monogamous relationship. Isn't that what love is about (amongst other things) or am I missing something here. It is love that drives people to do things that they would not nomally do but for the power of their feelings. Or have I been reading to many Mills and Boon and Danielle Steel!

I never said he does not care for his w, and of coarse he still has love for her, she is the mother of his child. But also understand I am not deluding myself to think he loves me. He does love me, this I know.

[GreenEyedLady]

I never said he does not care for his w, and of coarse he still has love for her, she is the mother of his child. But also understand I am not deluding myself to think he loves me. He does love me, this I know.

 

You go girl! You know him, not the others on this forum who would much rather see OW sad and depressed than strong in their beliefs and feelings...

[Ms_Natalie]

IC....counselling to make him leave his wife????

 

hmmm, that sounds somewhat strange to me, correct me if i'm wrong.

He should be 100% sure that he wants to leave her....why would he need counselling??? Does he not have balls of his own????

 

Please correct me, if I received the OP wrongly...

[Impudent Oyster]

Mino, I went back and read your first posts here..no wonder you're frustrated! You've been with this MM three years, he recently had a baby AFTER you started seeing him, and your first posts here sound identical to this one.

 

It's been almost a year and you and he are in the exact same spot. You just may be in that spot next year too, and by then he and his wife may have another child.

[Ms_Natalie]

woah, mino...you have the strength and understanding of the pope. How could you accept him having a child while you were together?? You should have left this R, a long time ago.

 

Sorry

[frannie]

Have you considered the possibility that he really does NOT want to leave? I know what he says, but many MM still love the wife very much. I wonder if it is so much courage as it is the finality of saying good bye to a woman he still loves.

 

Have you considered if you want to live your life with a man who does not have the courage to make such a decision for you?

 

And I don't mean to be harsh, but if it takes counseling to make him realize that he loves you more than his wife...what does that say about his love for you? What does that say about how important you are to him? Shouldn't he be able to leave for you if the love is there? And if he fears his wife this much....do you think he will be able to be a good partner to you?

 

I know the thread has moved on, but I just wanted to address this thoughtful post from James.

 

I can't speak for Mino, obviously, but from someone in a similar position. The counselling isn't about 'deciding who you love more' one woman or another. It's about deciding whether to stay married for the sake of the marriage and children, or to leave to pursue personal happiness. Many men (and women) find that a very difficult question, and something that they struggle with. In fact, if that wasn't the case there would be far, far fewer affairs at all. Everyone would just leave a marriage simply because they 'fell in love' with another person. But there is the struggle: you have made promises, commitments, and have children to consider.

[frannie]

IC....counselling to make him leave his wife????

 

hmmm, that sounds somewhat strange to me, correct me if i'm wrong.

He should be 100% sure that he wants to leave her....why would he need counselling??? Does he not have balls of his own????

 

Please correct me, if I received the OP wrongly...

 

This is the problem, MN. Wanting and doing are two very very different animals. Unfortunately for most OW, that's something that they don't realise until very late in the proceedings. He can be 110% sure of what he wants to do, but can you do that when the consequences of that action are absolutely huge?

 

You call it 'balls', I would call it difficulty in exherting your need for personal fulfilment and happiness when you have dependents who you will certainly have to hurt, and possibly damage.

 

I don't call 'balls' the quality required to walk out on your W and abandon your children (which is how it is perceived). That's not 'balls' ... men who do that without a backward glance don't have more 'balls' than the next man. Not in my opinion anyway.

[complicatedlife]

You call it 'balls', I would call it difficulty in exherting your need for personal fulfilment and happiness when you have dependents who you will certainly have to hurt, and possibly damage.

 

I don't call 'balls' the quality required to walk out on your W and abandon your children (which is how it is perceived). That's not 'balls' ... men who do that without a backward glance don't have more 'balls' than the next man. Not in my opinion anyway.

 

My MM always says that - you know what you want to do, but the consequence to the people who you care about is hard to deal with and makes you feel as though you are being selfish. Any human being - man or woman, for whom it would be easy to walk away from their family and not feel remorse or any regret - what would that person be? To me, inhuman. It's GOT to feel awful to do that. If my MM were happy and had no guilty feelings when he moved out, I would think he was extremely weird and non-caring.

[Mino]

This is the problem, MN. Wanting and doing are two very very different animals. Unfortunately for most OW, that's something that they don't realise until very late in the proceedings. He can be 110% sure of what he wants to do, but can you do that when the consequences of that action are absolutely huge?

 

You call it 'balls', I would call it difficulty in exherting your need for personal fulfilment and happiness when you have dependents who you will certainly have to hurt, and possibly damage.

 

I don't call 'balls' the quality required to walk out on your W and abandon your children (which is how it is perceived). That's not 'balls' ... men who do that without a backward glance don't have more 'balls' than the next man. Not in my opinion anyway.

Thank you Frannie, You understand! Seems not everybody does...... He does care about hurting others, thats why he is still there. Its not a marriage that he is in, its a situation he feels stuck in, out of fear and guilt. He is trying to learn how to deal with these feelings, not an easy thing to do. Thank you frannie for your support!!!!

[Mino]

My MM always says that - you know what you want to do, but the consequence to the people who you care about is hard to deal with and makes you feel as though you are being selfish. Any human being - man or woman, for whom it would be easy to walk away from their family and not feel remorse or any regret - what would that person be? To me, inhuman. It's GOT to feel awful to do that. If my MM were happy and had no guilty feelings when he moved out, I would think he was extremely weird and non-caring.

You are so right CL!!, Thanks for understanding:)

[Mino]

woah, mino...you have the strength and understanding of the pope. How could you accept him having a child while you were together?? You should have left this R, a long time ago.

 

Sorry

HI MS N, We were not in a relationship (love) the first year. I had also left the country for two months, so during this time were she did concieve thiere child we were not together.

[Impudent Oyster]

T

You call it 'balls', I would call it difficulty in exherting your need for personal fulfilment and happiness when you have dependents who you will certainly have to hurt, and possibly damage.

 

.

 

He doesn't seem to have any problem with getting personal fullfilment and happiness with another women behind his wife's back though, does he?

 

Oh yeah, this guy DEFINITELY lacks cajones...big time.

 

If he had any, he wouldn't be on his 8th (or is it 9th?) attempt at leaving. He's like a yo-yo. What does that mean anyway? Has he physically left his wife and gotten his own place or lived with Mino?

 

Mino, can you clarify what you mean when you say he leaves...what precisely does he do, tell his wife he loves another woman and then walks out the door on her and the baby? And she keeps taking him back? If so, she doesn't have any balls either.

[Mino]

Mino, I went back and read your first posts here..no wonder you're frustrated! You've been with this MM three years, he recently had a baby AFTER you started seeing him, and your first posts here sound identical to this one.

 

It's been almost a year and you and he are in the exact same spot. You just may be in that spot next year too, and by then he and his wife may have another child.

Hi IO, with the holidays coming up, your right , I feel like I am in the same spot. The difference is that now he is in IC. I am fusterated, bucause I am tired, that is why I I dont know if I should continue to support him through his issues. I dont want to be here next year,

[Impudent Oyster]

Hi IO, with the holidays coming up, your right , I feel like I am in the same spot. The difference is that now he is in IC. I am fusterated, bucause I am tired, that is why I I dont know if I should continue to support him through his issues. I dont want to be here next year,

 

Mino, have you ever laid down the gauntlet, I mean REALLY laid it down, as in, we are DONE until you are divorced?

 

I don't see why he would ever make a decision (and I mean really make it, as in actions, not words or promises.) if you keep breaking NC. He has no reason to.

 

Why should he end his marriage if you allow him to have it all?

 

He's never really left his wife, has he? Deep down you probably know he's never even broached the subject with her.

[Shades of Grey]

Mino,

 

My advice would be to take care to protect yourself. My concern for you is that him finally going to IC will create huge expectations that he will finally gain the strength to leave his marriage once and for all. Be prepared that this still might not happen and that the more you invest in supporting him the harder it will be.

 

When my MM started IC I felt huge relief because I thought it would once and for all help him to unbury his head from out of the sand. I thought that he would finally realise that he couldn't carry on the way he was and needed to accept responsibility for his actions and make some positive and proactive decisions about his future... He still took the path of least resistance in the end.

 

I can completely understand that you don't want to back off completely and leave it to him but don't be his crutch. If he wants to be with you he'll find his own way. In the meantime you need to try and find yours.

[JamesM]

Honestly, I think when women who are mistresses are so patient with their married men, it increases the likelihood that he will stay in his marriage. This is just an observation, and I don't mean it harshly. Nor do I say that this is your MM, but I can say that he exhibits plenty of indications that make me think he really does not want to leave. (Men say alot of things they don't mean). But think...if you simply told him that you love him but cannot be with a man who cannot honor his commitments to his wife, then I think you would not only see the real "man" and what his intentions are, but you would also feel so much better as a person knowing that the relationship would be built on a foundation of trust and respect....not one of dishonesty and lies.

 

I cannot help but say the same thing...if he loved you and you loved him, then both of you would make the commitment to wait until he has life straightened out. If he needs counseling to make a decision to leave his current situation, then I am willing to guess that his wife does not know his complete true feelings. If he is afraid of what his wife will do to him or if he is afraid to break up his family, then he must not have enough love for you and still has some for his wife.

 

While I have no doubt that he loves you emotionally, I am concerned that he loves you in the sense of commitment. I am not advocating that you leave him never to return, but if he has as many problems in life as you say he does, then it would be better for both of you if he fixes his OCD, insecurities, and family situation alone.

 

Thank you Frannie, You understand! Seems not everybody does...... He does care about hurting others, thats why he is still there. Its not a marriage that he is in, its a situation he feels stuck in, out of fear and guilt. He is trying to learn how to deal with these feelings, not an easy thing to do. Thank you frannie for your support!!!!

 

Sometimes those of us who are not in the same situation actually understand better than the ones who are in the same situation. Objective opinions can be given when not in a subjective state. As a married man who has been enticed with the idea of an affair before, I don't do it because I do care about hurting others. If I did not, then I would find me a nice mistress and enjoy the thrill of the OW, while at the same time I would enjoy the company of my wife. I would keep telling her how awful my wife is and how misunderstood I am. But the fact is...I don't want to hurt my wife, family, or an OW

 

It has taken him over three years to deal with these feelings of fear and guilt. How much longer are you willing to wait? It took him three years to get into counseling....was this totally his idea or was it your suggestion? Have you had to persuade him at all to go to a counselor or did he tell you that he was doing it?

 

I know you think that those of us who are promoting NC may not understand, but as a man, I have a good idea of what a MM can say to keep a woman.

 

BTW, have you lived with him and experienced his OCD and indecision? I am sure you may say he isn't that way with you, but he will be. Having experienced OCD as a child and personally, it doesn't just go away if we leave a situation. It is still there. And if you were a spouse of one, many areas of your life would be affected by it.

 

I truly hope you make it through this time of uncertainty, but I really think that if you relationship with the MM started today based on honesty and commitment instead of lies and secrecy, you would be better off for it down the road if the two of you got married.

[nadiaj2727]

You go girl! You know him, not the others on this forum who would much rather see OW sad and depressed than strong in their beliefs and feelings...

 

I don't want to see any woman, OW or not, sad and depressed. I want to see them strong and happy. It is obvious that for many women, remaining in a relationship with MM is what is making them sad and depressed. Therefore I say, stop being a sad and depressed OW and become a strong and happy independent woman. Nothing wrong with that advice IMO!

[nadiaj2727]

Mino, have you ever laid down the gauntlet, I mean REALLY laid it down, as in, we are DONE until you are divorced?

 

I don't see why he would ever make a decision (and I mean really make it, as in actions, not words or promises.) if you keep breaking NC. He has no reason to.

 

Why should he end his marriage if you allow him to have it all?

 

 

Hi Mino! I remember you really helped me when I was in the process of leaving my xMM. So I want to help you but honestly I think IO's above is the best... so all I can say is, consider it. I think she is smart when she advises you to tell him "I have waited long enough... I cannot be with you anymore until after you get divorced."

 

How many times have you told him no contact and then gone back to him? He knows you are always there for him no matter what. You love him and want to be unselfish and patient. He loves you but he is using you in a way, by continuing to come back to you when he wants to but while he's still unable to completely be with you. Perhaps think about what is best for you and then do that, instead of falling into the same old pattern of thinking NC is best and then caving.

[Mino]

Mino, have you ever laid down the gauntlet, I mean REALLY laid it down, as in, we are DONE until you are divorced?

 

I don't see why he would ever make a decision (and I mean really make it, as in actions, not words or promises.) if you keep breaking NC. He has no reason to.

 

Why should he end his marriage if you allow him to have it all?

 

He's never really left his wife, has he? Deep down you probably know he's never even broached the subject with her.

OK,,, so I was also dreaming that she was standing at my door screaming, Everything you have said makes sense, Io, and I respect your thoughts, I do. but that last stament was a jab, I am not stupid, IO

[Mino]

Honestly, I think when women who are mistresses are so patient with their married men, it increases the likelihood that he will stay in his marriage. This is just an observation, and I don't mean it harshly. Nor do I say that this is your MM, but I can say that he exhibits plenty of indications that make me think he really does not want to leave. (Men say alot of things they don't mean). But think...if you simply told him that you love him but cannot be with a man who cannot honor his commitments to his wife, then I think you would not only see the real "man" and what his intentions are, but you would also feel so much better as a person knowing that the relationship would be built on a foundation of trust and respect....not one of dishonesty and lies.

 

I cannot help but say the same thing...if he loved you and you loved him, then both of you would make the commitment to wait until he has life straightened out. If he needs counseling to make a decision to leave his current situation, then I am willing to guess that his wife does not know his complete true feelings. If he is afraid of what his wife will do to him or if he is afraid to break up his family, then he must not have enough love for you and still has some for his wife.

 

While I have no doubt that he loves you emotionally, I am concerned that he loves you in the sense of commitment. I am not advocating that you leave him never to return, but if he has as many problems in life as you say he does, then it would be better for both of you if he fixes his OCD, insecurities, and family situation alone.

 

 

 

Sometimes those of us who are not in the same situation actually understand better than the ones who are in the same situation. Objective opinions can be given when not in a subjective state. As a married man who has been enticed with the idea of an affair before, I don't do it because I do care about hurting others. If I did not, then I would find me a nice mistress and enjoy the thrill of the OW, while at the same time I would enjoy the company of my wife. I would keep telling her how awful my wife is and how misunderstood I am. But the fact is...I don't want to hurt my wife, family, or an OW

 

It has taken him over three years to deal with these feelings of fear and guilt. How much longer are you willing to wait? It took him three years to get into counseling....was this totally his idea or was it your suggestion? Have you had to persuade him at all to go to a counselor or did he tell you that he was doing it?

 

I know you think that those of us who are promoting NC may not understand, but as a man, I have a good idea of what a MM can say to keep a woman.

 

BTW, have you lived with him and experienced his OCD and indecision? I am sure you may say he isn't that way with you, but he will be. Having experienced OCD as a child and personally, it doesn't just go away if we leave a situation. It is still there. And if you were a spouse of one, many areas of your life would be affected by it.

 

I truly hope you make it through this time of uncertainty, but I really think that if you relationship with the MM started today based on honesty and commitment instead of lies and secrecy, you would be better off for it down the road if the two of you got married.

Thank you for all your insights, James. You have very good points. Yes I know his ocd will not go away, They say it gets worse with age. I have read several books on the condition. I have mention Nc to hime, I am thinking of leaving the area next month for a month to get my head together, I think that is a good start

[sarme]

This is the problem, MN. Wanting and doing are two very very different animals. Unfortunately for most OW, that's something that they don't realise until very late in the proceedings. He can be 110% sure of what he wants to do, but can you do that when the consequences of that action are absolutely huge?

 

You call it 'balls', I would call it difficulty in exherting your need for personal fulfilment and happiness when you have dependents who you will certainly have to hurt, and possibly damage.

 

I don't call 'balls' the quality required to walk out on your W and abandon your children (which is how it is perceived). That's not 'balls' ... men who do that without a backward glance don't have more 'balls' than the next man. Not in my opinion anyway.

 

So having balls is continuing a long time affair while still at home with Wife and kids?

 

Sorry but if making your mind up and leaving does not mean a person has balls then staying and continuing the lying and deceit does? I don't get that!?!?

[Mino]

Mino,

 

My advice would be to take care to protect yourself. My concern for you is that him finally going to IC will create huge expectations that he will finally gain the strength to leave his marriage once and for all. Be prepared that this still might not happen and that the more you invest in supporting him the harder it will be.

 

When my MM started IC I felt huge relief because I thought it would once and for all help him to unbury his head from out of the sand. I thought that he would finally realise that he couldn't carry on the way he was and needed to accept responsibility for his actions and make some positive and proactive decisions about his future... He still took the path of least resistance in the end. makes a lot of sense, Shades,,,,, I dont have much faith anymore anyway..... Plus Therapy can takes years,,, take alot of courage , and your right people to take the easier road sometimes Thank you

[frannie]

He doesn't seem to have any problem with getting personal fullfilment and happiness with another women behind his wife's back though, does he?

 

Don't you think that's a good reason to get counselling? Because I do.

[frannie]

Honestly, I think when women who are mistresses are so patient with their married men, it increases the likelihood that he will stay in his marriage. This is just an observation, and I don't mean it harshly. Nor do I say that this is your MM, but I can say that he exhibits plenty of indications that make me think he really does not want to leave. (Men say alot of things they don't mean). But think...if you simply told him that you love him but cannot be with a man who cannot honor his commitments to his wife, then I think you would not only see the real "man" and what his intentions are, but you would also feel so much better as a person knowing that the relationship would be built on a foundation of trust and respect....not one of dishonesty and lies.

 

I cannot help but say the same thing...if he loved you and you loved him, then both of you would make the commitment to wait until he has life straightened out. If he needs counseling to make a decision to leave his current situation, then I am willing to guess that his wife does not know his complete true feelings. If he is afraid of what his wife will do to him or if he is afraid to break up his family, then he must not have enough love for you and still has some for his wife.

 

"If he is afraid to break up his family, then he must not have enough love for you"

 

This is exactly what I don't get. Are you really telling me that if someone loves someone "enough", then they'd not be bothered somehow about their own family..? Does romantic love really make you less concerned with your children's welfare?