Lauriebell82 Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 But the real question : How does he treat you after 8 years ? Is he good to you ? Kind and caring ? What if you were lucky enough to have a great guy and he was willing to give you 8 more years of love ? But lets say he was not the marrying kind ? What if he continued to be the wonderful person you know and grew to love ? I would take 8 years of love ( married or not ) with a man who treated me with great respect. Say you don't ever get married but he fills your life with love ? Can you take the love without the wedding gown and the 3 tier cake ? I know I would take the gifts of love and take that into the years.... Yes, but what if you want to get married and have children? Marriage is obviously very important to the poster (she said so herself) so I really don't think she should compromise what she feels is right for her. I personally would never stay with someone who didn't want to get married, it's something I want for myself (one important reason is because I want to have children and would never do so out of wedlock). Maybe she feels the same way about the issue. I just think that it is all about what is important to the person. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 But the real question : How does he treat you after 8 years ? Is he good to you ? Kind and caring ? What if you were lucky enough to have a great guy and he was willing to give you 8 more years of love ? But lets say he was not the marrying kind ? What if he continued to be the wonderful person you know and grew to love ? I would take 8 years of love ( married or not ) with a man who treated me with great respect. Say you don't ever get married but he fills your life with love ? Can you take the love without the wedding gown and the 3 tier cake ? I know I would take the gifts of love and take that into the years.... He's not promising 8 more years of love. He's not saying he's willing to be with her for 8 years. He's not promising anything. That's the whole point of her dilemma. This isn't about gowns and cakes. This is about the level of commitment to each other and their future together. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 He's not promising 8 more years of love. He's not saying he's willing to be with her for 8 years. He's not promising anything. That's the whole point of her dilemma. This isn't about gowns and cakes. This is about the level of commitment to each other and their future together. Marriage doesn't promise any of those things either really. Relationships fail all the time with or with out marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Marriage doesn't promise any of those things either really. Relationships fail all the time with or with out marriage. Wanting to be married - like the OP does - means wanting to make a commitment, means making plans for the future together, means having intentions to stay together, and yes, making promises to forsake all others and to put the relationship first. Of course you can have that without being married. But, for the OP, the declaration of commitment that is marriage, is a deeper personal commitment than moving in together and she wants that level of commitment. Of course getting married doesn't mean all couples will live up to those promises or even want that level of commitment at some future time. But the point is she wants that declaration of intention, and that commitment, regardless of the odds of success or failure, guarantees or no guarantees. I have no interest in debating the success or failure of marriage or cohabitation or non-married commitment or whatever. The point is, the OP sees marriage as the kind of commitment she wants, her bf had originally said he wanted the same thing, and now he's backing out and offering cohabitation for an indefinite period to get over his indefinite fears of an indefinite future. THAT is the point of this thread, and she needs to decide if she wants to remain with him under his new terms, or if she will live her life on her own terms without him and seek a man who believes the same things she does about marriage, commitment, and cohabitation. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Wanting to be married - like the OP does - means wanting to make a commitment, means making plans for the future together, means having intentions to stay together, and yes, making promises to forsake all others and to put the relationship first. Of course you can have that without being married. But, for the OP, the declaration of commitment that is marriage, is a deeper personal commitment than moving in together and she wants that level of commitment. Of course getting married doesn't mean all couples will live up to those promises or even want that level of commitment at some future time. But the point is she wants that declaration of intention, and that commitment, regardless of the odds of success or failure, guarantees or no guarantees. I have no interest in debating the success or failure of marriage or cohabitation or non-married commitment or whatever. The point is, the OP sees marriage as the kind of commitment she wants, her bf had originally said he wanted the same thing, and now he's backing out and offering cohabitation for an indefinite period to get over his indefinite fears of an indefinite future. THAT is the point of this thread, and she needs to decide if she wants to remain with him under his new terms, or if she will live her life on her own terms without him and seek a man who believes the same things she does about marriage, commitment, and cohabitation. Yes the OP wants marriage but at this point her bf for whatever reason does not. There is nothing wrong with his feelings and if she can not accept his terms then she should move on to someone who feels the same as her. I was just trying to say just because someone doesn't want to be married DOES NOT mean they aren't commited. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Yes the OP wants marriage but at this point her bf for whatever reason does not. There is nothing wrong with his feelings and if she can not accept his terms then she should move on to someone who feels the same as her. I was just trying to say just because someone doesn't want to be married DOES NOT mean they aren't commited. Well, we're not talking about someone. We're talking about him. And he is hesitant about making a marriage commitment. He wasn't hesitant before when they discussed it and looked at rings, but he is now. Which leads one to question his level of commitment, doesn't it? Why is he suddenly not wanting marriage? He has not articulated why, or what his fears are. Does he disagree about children, about lifestyle, about practical issues that can be resolved? Is he suddenly opposed to marriage in general when he wasn't before? He never said he was committed but he just never wanted to get married. Doesn't that lead one to question his feelings for her, his love? What else could his fears be about except his uncertainty about his feelings for her, and his uncertainty about being committed? Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Well, we're not talking about someone. We're talking about him. And he is hesitant about making a marriage commitment. He wasn't hesitant before when they discussed it and looked at rings, but he is now. Which leads one to question his level of commitment, doesn't it? Why is he suddenly not wanting marriage? He has not articulated why, or what his fears are. Does he disagree about children, about lifestyle, about practical issues that can be resolved? Is he suddenly opposed to marriage in general when he wasn't before? He never said he was committed but he just never wanted to get married. Doesn't that lead one to question his feelings for her, his love? What else could his fears be about except his uncertainty about his feelings for her, and his uncertainty about being committed? I'm not sure why he would be uncertain. Maybe he never was ready and felt pressured into saying he was or maybe someone close to him is having marriage problems and that scares him. There could be a few different reasons as to why he was "ready" at one point and is not "ready" now. However they are both still young so if they are meant to be married and spend the rest of their lives together then why would a few months of trying it out hurt? Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I'm not sure why he would be uncertain. Maybe he never was ready and felt pressured into saying he was or maybe someone close to him is having marriage problems and that scares him. There could be a few different reasons as to why he was "ready" at one point and is not "ready" now. However they are both still young so if they are meant to be married and spend the rest of their lives together then why would a few months of trying it out hurt? An imperfect analogy: you interview for a job, you meet with all the primary decision makers, you make it past the HR background check, you pass your drug tests, and are offered the job. You love the company, love the job, are excited about the salary and benefits. You give notice at your old job, and get ready to start. When you arrive on your first day, you find out they've changed their mind and want to 'try before they buy' and you're not a regular hire with benefits and insurance, but a temp until they decide if they really want to hire you. Why would a few months trying it out hurt? It hurts because she now knows he is not at the same level of commitment that she is after 8 years of being together, that he is UNCERTAIN of her and their future together. That's what hurts. She was under the impression he felt the same way about her and committing to a marriage with her, and now she finds out she is with a guy who isn't so sure. That hurts. Her reality suddenly changed. She now knows they are no longer on the same page, they no longer seem to have the same intentions about each other. It hurts because there is no such thing as "meant to be together" - that's a choice and he's not making the choice. Moving in together may sound like a good compromise, but it's all her compromise. What is he compromising? Nothing. She takes all the risk by leaving her job, leaving her friends, and moving into his world indefinitely - moving in with a man whom she now knows is uncertain about her. It takes the joy out of moving in together for her, and he's going to feel under more pressure to make a decision because she clearly has different intentions and desires than he does. He has set up a volatile situation that's going to lead to a break up, or he's setting up a situation where he gets complacent and keeps putting off the decision indefinitely until she finally gets aggravated and then they break up when she realizes he's content to continue their live in status without marrying. Had he said he wasn't ready from the get-go, they wouldn't be in this position now. It would be more of a compromise if he offered to go to premarital counseling with her, so as to work on identifying his issues, and so they could make sure they understand each other and are working toward the same goal. But all he's offered is to move her in and see if the benefits of cohabitation help him get over his fears. But it's not a commitment in his mind - she knows that, he knows that. Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 NJ- brilliant post. After reading that, I have changed my mind and agree with you. I would feel hurt and disappointed if I was the OP too. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 NJ- brilliant post. After reading that, I have changed my mind and agree with you. I would feel hurt and disappointed if I was the OP too. Thanks, SB. That's what I read in the OP's posts - a lot of hurt and disappointment, and he's not really seeing that he's hurt her deeply and that everything has changed. Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Yes, the more I think about this situation the more I have to admit that as much as I would like to say I would be "cool" with it, I wouldn't be. I would be wondering if any kind of permanent commitment was on the not too distant horizon. I have never been in a R for longer than two years. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Maybe the OP boyfriends feels the same way alot of people feel. That no matter what you always live with someone before you marry them. If that is the case he should of probably asked her to move in with him before 8 years. He could be 99% sure that she is the one he wants but just needs the actual experiance of living together to make him 100% sure. I don't know why he is stalling so I can't say that he is never going to want to marry her and she should leave. Maybe she should suggest premarital counseling like norajane mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I agree with that too! Personally I would definitely prefer to live with someone before I married them. I think my biggest red flag with regards to this particular situation is the time frame. Eight years is a long time for there have been no co-habitation too, IMO, however I am aware there may be circumstances which mean this hasn't been possible. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I understand the OP's pain...Its something that is important to her. She should have what she wants : Marriage. but.... But what is far worse[/I] is if her fiance is having serious doubts inside, he continues to plan for a wedding (... not that he is now... ) because thats where she wants it to go...( and for whatever his reasons ) he isn't ready for the permanence of marraige and all it means... I take it that he takes marraige very seriously and he is not ready to step in the ring. Another area to examine : They are both young and that means he has been with her for 8 years. Maybe he wonders about what else is out there. Maybe thats the hesitation. I don't say this to hurt the poster but perhaps counseling might reveal that he could wonder about that... Perhaps not and he loves her like crazy and never wants to be with anyone else. Only in his mind does he struggle ( if at all ) with that thought... I take it that the posters that want her to go for marraige have a stronger stance on marraige versus those who believe that if you love someone time is not a boundry and marraige will come when they are BOTH ready. We all have different opinions and hopefully OP can find her happiness in life and I wish her the best. To compare this with the seeking of employment ( because a previous poster did ) ...once again there are no gaurantees that the employer will be a success with the employee. The employer has a right to put the employee on a probationary period and the employee meets all the requirements for a successful match.. I feel the fiance ( because its important to him to find out ) has a right to pre~test the live - in arrangement. . Some may strongly disagree but the divorce rate is quite high . I think breaking up is easier than a long dredged out divorce . Shoot me in the foot but I stand by that.. Op will find whats right for her. Whether she agrees with me ( or anyone who might agree with me ) there are different opinions and through all of this OP can sift through it all and see the different sides and make her own decision. Link to post Share on other sites
BentSpine Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free", At least I would hope that my partner would actually enjoy spending time with me, getting some milk herself, instead of her putting up with me so that one day she could feel socially upgraded from girlfriend to wife. Link to post Share on other sites
Beautiful Tess Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 You don't like ultimatums, but you'll leave if he doesn't propose.... Love is beyond ultimatums, papers, rings.... If you're in love , you'd never leave If he were in love, he'd marry her. Sorry, but that's the bottom line. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free", At least I would hope that my partner would actually enjoy spending time with me, getting some milk herself, instead of her putting up with me so that one day she could feel socially upgraded from girlfriend to wife. And what if your partner did enjoy the milk...for 8 years...and now wants to know if milk is all you are willing to offer for the rest of her life? Some people actually want the whole cow, not just the milk. Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 If he were in love, he'd marry her. Sorry, but that's the bottom line. Not everyone cares about marriage. Sorry thats just the bottom line. Not saying the OP should settle for less then she wants, but just not everyone feels if you love someone you have to marry them. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Not everyone cares about marriage. Sorry thats just the bottom line. Not saying the OP should settle for less then she wants, but just not everyone feels if you love someone you have to marry them. I don't want to marry anyone either and neither does the guy I like... Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I don't want to marry anyone either and neither does the guy I like... Ok.... I don't want to marry anyone either and my boyfriend of 6 years doesn't either. All I was saying was if you love someone you do not have to marry them. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Ok.... I don't want to marry anyone either and my boyfriend of 6 years doesn't either. All I was saying was if you love someone you do not have to marry them. It seems its all mostly for the bride. You notice how the groom has little input in the whole thing ? The bride stresses for 6 months to a year and we all know the rest of wedding planning.... How many men get cold feet in dealing with Bridezilla ? Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Knowing a few Bridezillas personally has completely put me off the idea of wanting a wedding. Note: it hasn't put me off MARRIAGE, just all the stress that goes with a wedding. I know quite a few people who have stressed over having the perfect wedding, but haven't stopped to consider what comes after the honeymoon. Many of these marriages are in trouble or over now. Link to post Share on other sites
catrocks Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 It seems its all mostly for the bride. You notice how the groom has little input in the whole thing ? The bride stresses for 6 months to a year and we all know the rest of wedding planning.... So not true. Ok, in many cases it's probably true but certainly not all the time. Planning our wedding has been a joint affair. It's been fun Link to post Share on other sites
rainfall Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 It seems its all mostly for the bride. You notice how the groom has little input in the whole thing ? The bride stresses for 6 months to a year and we all know the rest of wedding planning.... How many men get cold feet in dealing with Bridezilla ? Yeah we have discussed it and decided if we ever do get married we are going to vegas. Alot more fun and alot less stress. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 So not true. Ok, in many cases it's probably true but certainly not all the time. Planning our wedding has been a joint affair. It's been fun It is great to find a man that will become deeply involved in the planning but as a general rule I think the norm is that the woman does alot of the planning.......... Example : How many tiers on the wedding cake ? The design ? What flavor cakes ? What flavor of fillings ?... How many men do you know who get that involved with the cake ? Her Dress : How many hours will she spend fitting and finding the perfect dress ? Beaded ? Simple ? Sleeveless ? The list goes on and on... But for the man he just simply makes a Tux appointment , they measure him and he's done for the most part. So for the women who's dream it is to plan this very important event and wants nothing to go wrong on the wedding day she puts alot into the entire event. Whats sad is " the wedding should cost $ 200 and the divorce $ 10,000 when in fact it is reversed. The wedding is very expensive and the divorce is $ 1000...maybe reversing that would make people stop and think about that for a minute.... But for the truly lucky ones out there wedding planning is an exciting time and may those marraiges last into the future.... Link to post Share on other sites
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