Answered Prayer

[Ariadne]

Moai,

 

People kill each other because they pray "wrong" or to the wrong god.

 

Nah, that's just people being people.

 

We do, actually. If I told you that I saw my cat fly, you would probably think that I was crazy. If you saw a man walking on water, you would probably assume it was a magic trick.

 

The fact that in the bible crazy book it says that there was a man that walked on water...

 

Is no proof that people's prayers are not being answered, or that there's no such things as miracles.

 

Ariadne

[Ariadne]

Oh,

 

And here is the proof that miracles can happen.

 

 

Ariadne

[Island Girl]

Oh,

 

And here is the proof that miracles can happen.

 

 

Ariadne

 

FYI --

 

Some guy sitting and talking about his thoughts of how the universe works isn't evidence that miracles happen.

 

Got something else?

 

Keep in mind it should be evidence -- factual and concrete.

 

Otherwise it is worthless.

[Ariadne]

Oh,

 

Some guy sitting and talking about his thoughts of how the universe works isn't evidence that miracles happen. Got something else?

 

I was just kidding that it was proof.

 

I thought it was a cute clip to add to this discussion.

 

Ariadne

[quankanne]

Then how does it "work"? What is it for? Why does the Bible say that it works one way, but you think it works another?

 

prayer is merely a way of communicating with God, and it "works" because I understand that he's listening. Not as a wish-granting Santy Claus, but as someone who loves me and therefore will hear my concerns.

 

as for the Bible talking about faith moving mountains ... the mountain is that cold heavy stone of disbelief we carry in our hearts ... it's all about personal growth, much in the same manner that study does for our intellect. And the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Look at Heaven's Gate. Look at Jonestown. Look at the honor killings that happen almost daily in Muslim countries. Look at their reaction to a series of cartoons, and the fact that not one newspaper in the US had the guts to reprint them. Others' fanaticism makes appeasers cower, and their power grows, until the Dark Ages have returned.

 

you seem to revel in upholding man's wicked behavior, which is kind of odd for someone who claims to only want to promote "rational" thought – by holding up the Jim Joneses and fanatics of the world, you attempt to make them the norm, rather than the exceptions that they are to whole body of believers. Thus, you are equally guilty of the "irrational" behavior you peg on believers.

[ilmw]

I'll try to be as brief as possible. I am not angry at god, as thre is no such thing, but I am angry at religious faith and the results of it.

 

The reason I care is because I care about people, and religion has caused and is causing a great deal of suffering. There are many ways that humans use to separate "us" from "them" but religion seems to be the favorite, and it is the one for which there is no evidence at all. Right now people are killing each other because they read the wrong book, or read the right book but interpret it incorrectly.

 

These books and ideas go back to a time when men thought that the Earth was flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and that demons made people sick. They thought that witches really existed and had power. And on and on.

 

I read a great description of this recently. Imagine we found a man from 1400 frozen in ice somewhere, and we were able to thaw him out. If we were to ask him about the world, he would hold ideas as true that would embarrass an elementary school child. Many of those ideas I list above. But if you ask him about religion, he would give answers just like believers today would.

 

These irrational beliefs are like an albatross around our collective necks, preventing us from making rational decisions about our world. The Bible says man has dominion over the Earth. So why worry about global warming? God will take care of it.

 

22% of Americans believe that Jesus is returning definitely in the next 50 years, and another 22% think that he probably is. That is 44% of the population that don't need to make plans for the world beyond that time. Or ever, really, as they will vanish in the Rapture.

 

There are men out there who think that in the next world they will get all they desire from Allah because they were faithful, and were martyrs for him. It is only a matter of time before men like this get WMD's and the means to deliver them anywhere in the world.

 

Stem-cell research is our best hope for alleviating a great deal of suffering, but it is banned in the US because of beliefs about the "soul" for which there is no evidence. People alive now and suffering are less valuable than 150 cells in a Petri dish.

 

We have a vaccine that can prevent many types of cervical cancer. But we can't give that to all girls, because it may cause them to engage in premarital sex. Better they die a lingering death.

 

I could go on, but that is what is happening in our world right now. If we are going to survive, we must throw off the shackles of these Iron Age superstitions.

 

Fair enough answer...

[Moai]

Oh,

 

And here is the proof that miracles can happen.

 

 

Ariadne

 

Now THAT was funny.

[Moai]

Then how does it "work"? What is it for? Why does the Bible say that it works one way, but you think it works another?

 

prayer is merely a way of communicating with God, and it "works" because I understand that he's listening. Not as a wish-granting Santy Claus, but as someone who loves me and therefore will hear my concerns.

 

Hear your concerns but do nothing? So, what you are saying is god is your invisible therapist?

 

Again, I quote Matthew 7:7 - "[Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

 

That sounds to me that god is a wishy-wash wish granting Santa Claus.

 

as for the Bible talking about faith moving mountains ... the mountain is that cold heavy stone of disbelief we carry in our hearts ... it's all about personal growth, much in the same manner that study does for our intellect. And the two are not mutually exclusive.

Uh-huh. The Bible says otherwise. Matthew 17:20 - "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

 

And what does your stronger faith result in? Does it make you a better person, or help you to figure out moral questions better?

 

Look at Heaven's Gate. Look at Jonestown. Look at the honor killings that happen almost daily in Muslim countries. Look at their reaction to a series of cartoons, and the fact that not one newspaper in the US had the guts to reprint them. Others' fanaticism makes appeasers cower, and their power grows, until the Dark Ages have returned.

 

you seem to revel in upholding man's wicked behavior, which is kind of odd for someone who claims to only want to promote "rational" thought – by holding up the Jim Joneses and fanatics of the world, you attempt to make them the norm, rather than the exceptions that they are to whole body of believers. Thus, you are equally guilty of the "irrational" behavior you peg on believers.

Nope. They are only recent examples. There are hundreds and hundreds more. Is it irrational of me to notice the reasons behind such things? It was their FAITH that led them to their tragic end. I am just reasonable enough to admit it.

 

Just because you are more moderate doesn't make your faith "different" than theirs, just less violent. Moreover, is it your faith that makes you different, or your rational mind? You can obviously see that the people involved in the above examples were tragically deluded. How is that? If your pastor gave a sermon telling you to kill unbelievers, would you? Why not?

 

Sunnis and Shi'ites kill each other, and have for centuries because they each interpret the same book differently--a book that god inspired, supposedly. Is that rational? India and Pakistan could throw nuclear weapons at each other because each thinks the other prays incorrectly. Is that rational? In Ireland, Catholics hate Protestants and they kill each other. Is that rational?

 

Right now there are Christian Scientists refusing to give their children medicine. Is that rational?

 

If you add up all the examples of irrational, murderous and immoral behavior based on faith, the fact is that you are in the minority, not they.

[Moai]

Moai,

 

People kill each other because they pray "wrong" or to the wrong god.

 

Nah, that's just people being people.

 

No it isn't. If that were so, I'd kill my neighbor because he is a leftist (he's also a great guy and good friend, but still...).

 

We do, actually. If I told you that I saw my cat fly, you would probably think that I was crazy. If you saw a man walking on water, you would probably assume it was a magic trick.

 

The fact that in the bible crazy book it says that there was a man that walked on water...

 

Is no proof that people's prayers are not being answered, or that there's no such things as miracles.

 

Ariadne

There is proof that people's prayers are not being answered. And there is no such thing as a miracle.

[Diamonds&Rust]

Moai, how many LoveShack members have you converted to atheism?

 

Perhaps a bicycle and a tie should suit you.

[sb129]

Sorry to contradict you this time Moai, but I can't help but think of the words of the late great Freddy Mercury.

 

 

Every drop of rain that falls in Sahara Desert says it all

It's a miracle

All God's (oops) creations great and small, the Golden Gate and the Taj Mahal

That's a miracle

Test tube babies being born, mothers, fathers dead and gone

It's a miracle

We're having a miracle on Earth, mother nature does it all for us

The wonders of this world go on, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon

Captain Cook and Cain and Abel, Jimi Hendrix to the Tower of Babel

It's a miracle, it's a miracle, it's a miracle, it's a miracle

The one thing we're all waiting for, is peace on Earth - an end to war

It's a miracle we need - the miracle

The miracle we're all waiting for today

If every leaf on every tree, could tell a story that would be a miracle

If every child on every street, had clothes to wear and food to eat

That's a miracle

If all God's people could be free, to live in perfect harmony

It's a miracle, we're having a miracle on Earth

Mother nature does it all for us

(the wonders of this world go on)

Open hearts and surgery, Sunday mornings with a cup of tea

Super powers always fighting

But Mona Lisa just keeps on smiling

It's a miracle, it's a miracle, it's a miracle

 

(The wonders of this world go on)

Well it's a miracle, it's a miracle, it's a miracle, it's a miracle

The one thing (the one thing)

We're all waiting for (we're all waiting for)

Is peace on Earth (peace on Earth) and an end to war (end to war)

It's a miracle we need, the miracle, the miracle

Peace on Earth and end to war today

That time will come one day you'll see when we can all be friends

That time will come one day you'll see when we can all be friends

That time will come one day you'll see when we can all be friends

That time will come one day you'll see when we can all be friends

That time will come

 

 

sorry, just couldn't resist.

[ruby_gloom]

That's about as backhanded a compliment as I have ever received. Thanks?

 

It was just a statement. No more. No less.

 

Yep. I am alarmed and saddened that the US is 21st in the world in science and math. I am saddened that only 14% of the US population accepts evolution. I could go on, but if you actually look at the antecedents of faith and the technology that the faithful can get theirs hands on, we are in a state of emergency.

 

To me, the fundamental culprit is our education, not religion. I don't know if you are too 'detached' from the younger scholastic days of, say, high school or the like or if perhaps when you went to high school the education was better or something, but have you taken a peak into it? It is in shambles.

 

Compare our education to that of, say, Japan. We are a joke.

 

I agree that education should be taught without religious influence. If parents that their children to have a religious education, then that's fine, but that's what private schools are for. Otherwise, I believe that the story of Creationism should be taught in schools as a story in an English literature class.

 

Other than that, religion serves no purpose in the classroom.

 

However, the fundamental problem at this moment is that education--good education--seems to be serving no purpose in the classroom.

 

But, if someone believes something based on zero evidence, they should be shown that to be the case.

 

I fail to see how that is any of your business.

 

How many teens kill themselves because of their sexuality every year (sexuality deemed "Evil" or "unnatural" for no good reason)?

 

Here in the states? After a certain age, how is that religions fault?

 

People need to start trying to fortify education and educate themselves and quit blaming ever misfortune on something or someone other than themselves.

 

How many women will get cervical cancer for lack of a vaccine? How many people must send money to Benny Hinn and his ilk before it is harmful?

 

I'm completely for stem cell research, so there's no disagreement here.

 

How am I shoving anything down anyone's throat? I am not the one making claims, I am answering them.

 

The problem you have is that you are too arrogant when expressing your beliefs.

 

And these believers who believe one thing are also rejecting all the others. By claiming to be a Christian, you are also rejecting Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism--every other religion on the planet. I do too, I just reject one more.

 

I don't claim to be anything, really. At least, probably not anything you are familiar with.

 

I don't reject anything, though. But just because I accept it doesn't mean I practice it. Those two things are not synonymous.

 

By the way, Catholicism is a Christian religion.

 

Yea, I know.

 

Would you rather I let comments go to the wayside and forge ahead in a way that makes you feel comfortable?

 

That suggests that I am currently uncomfortable, and I'm not.

 

 

Got something else?

 

Keep in mind it should be evidence -- factual and concrete.

 

Otherwise it is worthless.

 

People without tact are distasteful.

 

Moai, how many LoveShack members have you converted to atheism?

 

With that attitude, I doubt very many.

[quankanne]

Hear your concerns but do nothing? So, what you are saying is God is your invisible therapist?

 

:laugh: that's an amusing thought! Naw, just an ever-lovin' parent who is concerned about my needs and fears and desires and etc. Kind of like the pluperfect version of my mother.

 

Again, I quote Matthew 7:7 … That sounds to me that god is a wishy-wash wish granting Santa Claus. a true believer isn't gonna keep a Christmas list of wants like a greedy five-year-old, but rather, asks for guidance in decision-making, in coming to terms with what's going on, in knowing how to respond to a certain need. I still stand firmly in my belief that the biggest mountain that needs to be conquered is the human heart, and I feel this is what your other Scripture passage refers to (faith moving a mountain). The Matthew quote above talks about having faith in knowing that what you need – not "want" – most will be given to you. That you're not alone out there, but that Someone sees your needs and will provide for you simply out of love for you.

 

And what does your stronger faith result in? Does it make you a better person, or help you to figure out moral questions better? It makes me strive to be the best person I can be, even when I feel murderous rage at someone. You talk about irrational behavior on a wide-scale level ... I see it in my own family and struggle greatly with trying to do right by those very people who hurt me because it's the only way they feel they can keep me in check. Which sucks, but my faith keeps me from devolving into the kind of people they are. And my faith allows me to respond with more love and patience than I realize I possess when I deal with them ... it's not my own natural inclination, but God working through me. You can call it what you want, but I know that it's only the grace of God that allows me to respond this way. Otherwise I'd be one of those hot-headed kooks beating the shxt out of people for stupid behavior I don't agree with. ("If your pastor gave a sermon telling you to kill unbelievers, would you? Why not?")

 

They are only recent examples. There are hundreds and hundreds more. Is it irrational of me to notice the reasons behind such things? It was their FAITH that led them to their tragic end. I am just reasonable enough to admit it. I don't disput that it's their flawed faith that has led them to irrational acts; I'm just saying that for all those hundreds and hundreds of people, there are millions of people who exist who don't model their faith in that manner. However, I think a common misconception is that by pointing holding up as a model that handful of whacked-out extremist believers, we fail to see that the average believer is moderate in their stance. People want the extremes to be the norm, and when they repeat these things often enough eventually people come to accept it as "truth," when it's not:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070520183447.htm

[Storyrider]

Some people have said the onus is on believers to "prove" that God communicates with us. (Diamonds and Rust compared that to proving the existence of love.) I would put forth the analogy of music. Who can prove that music is real?

 

What if it is just a jumble of notes that some people are genetically preprogrammed to find stimulating. Just bunches of notes, not music. Does anyone really believe that?

 

Here is a related story from Tales of the Hassidim, compiled by Martin Buber:

 

The Deaf Man

 

Rabbi Moshe Hayyim Efraim, the Baal Shem's grandson told: "I heard this from my grandfather: Once a fiddler played so sweetly that all who heard him began to dance, and whoever came near enough to hear joined in the dance. Then a deaf man who knew nothing of music happened along, and to him all he saw seemed the action of madmen--senseless and in bad taste."

[quankanne]

What if it is just a jumble of notes that some people are genetically preprogrammed to find stimulating. Just bunches of notes, not music. Does anyone really believe that?

 

that faith is a call to dialogue with God? I can believe that quite readily, because while the message might be broadcast for all to hear, only a willing/seeking heart can translate that message ...

 

good analogy. Also describes why some people just love that ©rap music while the rest of us shake our head in disbelief at the atonal madness of it :laugh:

[Ariadne]

Hey,

 

No it isn't. If that were so, I'd kill my neighbor because he is a leftist (he's also a great guy and good friend, but still...).

 

Oh, people kill neighbors too sometimes.

 

There is proof that people's prayers are not being answered. And there is no such thing as a miracle.

 

That's cool.

 

Ariadne

[Moai]

It was just a statement. No more. No less.

 

 

 

To me, the fundamental culprit is our education, not religion. I don't know if you are too 'detached' from the younger scholastic days of, say, high school or the like or if perhaps when you went to high school the education was better or something, but have you taken a peak into it? It is in shambles.

 

Yes, it is. 54% of the American public do not accept evolution. The unifying theory of all biology is not taught, or if it is taught at all it is so watered down it is meaningless. And you have religion to thank for that.

 

Compare our education to that of, say, Japan. We are a joke.

 

It's true.

 

I agree that education should be taught without religious influence. If parents that their children to have a religious education, then that's fine, but that's what private schools are for. Otherwise, I believe that the story of Creationism should be taught in schools as a story in an English literature class.

 

I would suggest a world religions class, but that is neither here nor there. It seems we agree that such things have no place in science class.

 

Other than that, religion serves no purpose in the classroom.

 

Unless it is a comparative religion class. Sadly, people of faith do not agree with you.

 

However, the fundamental problem at this moment is that education--good education--seems to be serving no purpose in the classroom.

 

Yep. People are so worried about their kids getting basic sex education that they forget that they need good math and science skills. But such things are secondary to making sure your kid doesn't believe in an observable fact.

 

I fail to see how that is any of your business.

 

It is my business because they make it so. If they just "believed" something but didn't make decisions about the lives of others there would be no issue. But they do. Read some 'Focus On The Family" literature, or examine the state of education, as you mention above.

 

Homosexuals are persecuted because a 2,000 year old book says their sexual behavior is unnatural. Gays are murdered because of the words in that book.

 

Marijuana is illegal because the faith of these people gives them the right to stomp out behavior they see as "sinful", even if practiced by adults in the privacy of their own homes. Books are banned. Children are indoctrinated.

 

Here in the states? After a certain age, how is that religions fault?

 

People need to start trying to fortify education and educate themselves and quit blaming ever misfortune on something or someone other than themselves.

 

A young person who comes out to their parents risks alienation from their family, or worse. They are also told that they are evil and going to hell, that the parents are ashamed, etc. It is easy for you to say the above, never having gone through such a thing. I haven't either, but I know that if homosexuality was seen as the normal thing it is (even though the Bible says it isn't), things like that would happen far less often.

 

I'm completely for stem cell research, so there's no disagreement here.

 

If you engage in it in South Dakota you get arrested. It's part of the arithmetic of souls that is nonsensical, and yet again based on zero evidence. Since such belief directly effects the possibility of my niece getting burn treatments it is my business.

 

And it isn't as if these people are of a different political party and I disagree with their point of view, they have very real beliefs about the nature of reality, life after death, the soul, and moral behavior based on no evidence whatsoever. And yet, we are all supposed to respect that, and not give offense? Are you kidding? It would be funny if it weren't so terrifying and tragic.

 

The problem you have is that you are too arrogant when expressing your beliefs.

 

In your opinion. Substitute "Zeus" for god in any of my posts and then decide if I am being arrogant. I am sure when men began to question the morality of slavery the more strident were seen as arrogant. Now, if I were to come on these forums and advocate slavery, imagine the reaction.

 

I don't claim to be anything, really. At least, probably not anything you are familiar with.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Somewhat arrogant of you to assume to know that whith which I am familiar.

 

I don't reject anything, though. But just because I accept it doesn't mean I practice it. Those two things are not synonymous.

 

Yes, they are. Someone who recognizes evil and does nothing is just as guilty as the perpetrator. Maybe you don't think it is evil, but in a way your moderate belief protects the radical.

 

Yea, I know.

 

That suggests that I am currently uncomfortable, and I'm not.

 

That's good.

 

People without tact are distasteful.

 

Pot. Kettle. <shrug>

 

With that attitude, I doubt very many.

 

Three that I am aware of. And I am not "converting" anyone. They just realize that their religion is a fallacy, and that their god is imaginary. It's like "converting" someone to the idea that electricity works.

[Moai]

Moai, how many LoveShack members have you converted to atheism?

 

Perhaps a bicycle and a tie should suit you.

 

As I posted a few moments ago, three that I know of. And again, I didn't "convert" them. The evidence did. I may have written it but it had nothing to do with me; it didn't originate with me, nor will it die with me.

[HokeyReligions]

Neither have invisible pink unicorns. The onus is on believers to prove god exists. You cannot prove a negative. Hence them trying to use prayer as evidence.

 

Believers do not need to prove God exists. For them He does and that is all that matters to their immortal soul. Do they want to spread the word and encourage others to believe - sure. If you find something that makes sense to you, brings you peace or contentment and joy - wouldn't you want that same thing for others? Especially for those you love? I wish I could share my feelings for animals with everyone and that everyone could feel the same joy and empathy and love I feel for them. I have introduced some to the fact (and yes I believe it to be FACT) that animals have feelings and are not just ornaments for the backs of pickup trucks and it HAS made a difference to them - and to the animals they have.

 

 

Two things: The finding pet example was printed in "Guideposts", a magazine devoted to bolstering people's faith. A woman lost her dog in the woods, and went into the house and prayed and prayed for the return of Fluffy, and she went back outsie and there was Fluffy! Praise God! See, faith is working in your life!

I didn't read that. I have my own personal account of finding a dog. I'm still agnostic, but at the time I wondered if that experience was from God. We rescued a dog from a parking lot. He was cut up pretty bad and tied to a fence so he couldn't even sit down without choking. We took him to the vet and got him some care. I thought we had a new home for him, but they backed out. We found another home for him and took him there. We got a call the next day saying he got out of their yard. I left work and we went searching for him. I printed a huge banner and after many hours of searching, I was taping the banner to a large sign in a church front yard. Just as I finished putting it up I heard my husband say "Honey - there he is" We found him, in a church yard. We brought him back to his new people and helped them secure the fence. He was happy and loved after that. Interpretation could be the hand of God at work.

It goes beyond people suffering, it is BELIEVERS suffering. I quoted two of the many passages in the Bible that state cearly that god answers prayers and if you have faith you get what you want. And yet no matter how faithful, people with terminal diseases still die. So, either god ignores some believers and answers others (which means he was lying in the passages I was quoting) or he can't do anything extraordinary, or he doesn't exist. Which is the best explanation?

The Bible is a metaphore. Ask and you shall receive - ask honestly and be open to acceptance that Jesus died for your sins - and you will believe it - that knowledge and relief will be inside you. Jesus or self-hypnosis? Who knows. If one believes its Jesus, well - maybe it is. The key is to separate what God states He wants for his followers from what the world has established in societies. Winning a lottery would be great - but that alone is not going to open one's heart to God. From my understanding God doesn't deal in trade. Prayers are not for material things, and for those suffering the prayer would be to be able to withstand it in this life, not necessarily to conquer it.

 

 

 

Then it isn't an answer at all. If I am suffering from a fatal illness but I know that I will die a lingering, painful death and pray for release, and that death eventually comes on exactly the schedule expected, that counts as an answered prayer?

The prayer would not be for release so much as for the ability to withstand the illness and pain for God. For understanding that it is God's plan - even though we don't know the reasons behind it. Release will come eventually no matter the faith. I think it was better for mom to pray for release And for the ability to withstand her physical pain because it gave her spiritual comfort and because it gave her the time she needed to let go of worldly things. A quick painless death could be considered a 'cheat' in a way because the spirit is not getting the time it may need to come to grips with death. If I died right now I would go missing the books I like to read, and the movies I like, and my house, and my dogs, and my family. If I have a long illness in which to prepare spiritually I might come to accept the letting go of earthly things and be able to help my family cope after I'm gone because I'll let them know that I'm ready and it's OK. Mom's suffering was harder on me most of the time, then it was on her. I've heard of many others who deal with long illnesses in the family being the same way - and our Hospice workers said the same thing - at the end the comfort seems to come from the person who is dying and given to the people left behind. Often there is survivor's guilt associated with this.

 

 

 

No. I know there are people who think there is, but there is no evidence to suggest that.

 

 

 

If Hinduism is true then we will be reincarnated, no matter what we do.

Yes, but not with the same sick bodies as before. If reincarnation is true then it just another form of rebirth.

 

 

 

Why is that our only hope? Look at the claims you have made that have no evidence whatsoever. There is a being called god. There is a being called Satan. They are enemies. One hates us for some reason. One loves us. We have a thing called a soul. This is what they battle over. We need saving. This is true, regardless of the other claims about gods and what happens after death, even though they all have equal evidence.

 

Faith has no evidence. It is not expected to have evidence. That is a human and worldly expectation - not a spiritual/faithful one.

 

 

 

But the Bible, the book from whence you get the idea of god and Satan battling, says that prayer DOES heal the body. Other people believe that, and they read the same book you do. Jesus says that prayer and faith will heal the body.

But what body? I don't take that literally. It can heal - that has been documented, but is it God-healing or something of our own creation - that we can heal ourselves through an amazing focus of our minds that is attributed to God. I read that "body" as a whole, not an individual body. A body or group or congregation of believers - their souls can be healed of hatred, bigotry, unbelief, sins. A 'body' of people, not an individual body.

 

Think about this: I am sure that she disagreed with the other 2,499 versions of Christianity. So, she could have been wrong. She could be in a place of eternal torment. Who can say? People have just as much faith in Hinduism, but since their beliefs are false they are in hell. Does your mom get a pass because she was YOUR mom, or because she believed deeply? Many people believe that by being a good person you go to Heaven, but many others think you are saved by grace through faith. So there are people who think they are going to Heaven but they aren't. Are you sure your mom is one of them?

Perhaps there are many "Heavens" or perhaps God is the same and it is belief in Him - no matter what He is called or what practice worships and that death and Heaven is simply being where God is and there it doesn't matter what organized religion was the path to Him. I was raised in a predominatly Christian country and society so I'm more familiar with that than with other religions.

 

And lest you get angry with me, I am not the one suggesting such things are true, believers are.

Not all believers, and I'm not angry. My loss is still fresh and it did hurt a bit when I read that - but I'm not angry. I would love to think of mom still existing and being content - but honestly I believe that she simply no longer exists, just as she did not exist before she was conceived.

[Diamonds&Rust]

Unless it is a comparative religion class. Sadly, people of faith do not agree with you.

Not all people of faith believe in Creationism.

 

In your opinion. Substitute "Zeus" for god in any of my posts and then decide if I am being arrogant.

 

This is not an apt analogy. Believing that Zeus existed was not part of Greek religion. It was a religion rooted in practice, not belief; the ritualistic worship of Greek gods was central to Greek society and arts, the question of whether they existed was not integral to the religion.

 

I haven't either, but I know that if homosexuality was seen as the normal thing it is (even though the Bible says it isn't), things like that would happen far less often.

 

What makes you so certain that it's scriptural condemnation? Eating pork is condemned in the same book of the Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, with the same Hebrew word, yet Christians never persecute pork-eaters. Religious rhetoric against homosexuals is not evidence that religion causes homophobia. If it weren't in the Bible, people who hate gays could easily find a different reason.

[Moai]

Believers do not need to prove God exists. For them He does and that is all that matters to their immortal soul. Do they want to spread the word and encourage others to believe - sure. If you find something that makes sense to you, brings you peace or contentment and joy - wouldn't you want that same thing for others? Especially for those you love? I wish I could share my feelings for animals with everyone and that everyone could feel the same joy and empathy and love I feel for them. I have introduced some to the fact (and yes I believe it to be FACT) that animals have feelings and are not just ornaments for the backs of pickup trucks and it HAS made a difference to them - and to the animals they have.

Yes, believers DO need to prove god exists. Why be a Christian and not a Hindu? Do I go to church on Saturday or Sunday? Do I pray facing East or does it not matter? Can I eat pork? How do I know? Oh, right, you have a book that tells you the answers to all those questions...

 

Your feelings for animals is not based on faith. You have evidence for such a belief. There is more evidence coming in every day. There still is no evidence for any god anywhere.

 

You and I both know that "sharing" one's religion goes a little beyond something that brings joy and happiness. With religion comes ideas of natural and unnatural behavior, and the concept of sin. Religion makes people think that they can reach into the privacy of others' homes and tell them who they can get naked with and how, or if they can smoke a particular plant or not. That's just two things, there are many, many more.

 

There are people of faith working to make the US a theocracy RIGHT NOW. They think that god gave the US to Christians and that we should be a Christian nation, and that our laws should be based on the Bible.

 

I didn't read that. I have my own personal account of finding a dog. I'm still agnostic, but at the time I wondered if that experience was from God. We rescued a dog from a parking lot. He was cut up pretty bad and tied to a fence so he couldn't even sit down without choking. We took him to the vet and got him some care. I thought we had a new home for him, but they backed out. We found another home for him and took him there. We got a call the next day saying he got out of their yard. I left work and we went searching for him. I printed a huge banner and after many hours of searching, I was taping the banner to a large sign in a church front yard. Just as I finished putting it up I heard my husband say "Honey - there he is" We found him, in a church yard. We brought him back to his new people and helped them secure the fence. He was happy and loved after that. Interpretation could be the hand of God at work.

Such an interpretation is morally bankrupt. To say that a god who has infinite power is working hard to save this dog while infants are dying of leukemia and he does nothing is sick. It amazes me that people don't see that.

 

I also share your love of dogs, by the way. And it speaks well of you to show such concern for their welfare. You did all of that to save that dog, and you should get the credit for it.

 

The Bible is a metaphore. Ask and you shall receive - ask honestly and be open to acceptance that Jesus died for your sins - and you will believe it - that knowledge and relief will be inside you. Jesus or self-hypnosis? Who knows. If one believes its Jesus, well - maybe it is. The key is to separate what God states He wants for his followers from what the world has established in societies. Winning a lottery would be great - but that alone is not going to open one's heart to God. From my understanding God doesn't deal in trade. Prayers are not for material things, and for those suffering the prayer would be to be able to withstand it in this life, not necessarily to conquer it.

Again, that may not be your understanding, but the book says differently. The passage in Matthew cannot honestly be made to be metaphorical.

 

And prayer IS for material things. That is the whole point. Otherwise, what is prayer? When I lie awake thinking am I praying? I have been to lots of different churches, and during every service there was prayer, and people prayed for material things. The answered prayer I read about on these forums was a prayer for something material.

 

Moreover, "thou shalt not suffer a which to live" is a metaphor for what exactly? And while many may now see that as a metaphor, others in the past did not. How is that people now are able to interpret the Bible correctly (as metaphor) and yet some of the greatest thinkers in the Christian tradition could not?

 

The prayer would not be for release so much as for the ability to withstand the illness and pain for God. For understanding that it is God's plan - even though we don't know the reasons behind it. Release will come eventually no matter the faith. I think it was better for mom to pray for release And for the ability to withstand her physical pain because it gave her spiritual comfort and because it gave her the time she needed to let go of worldly things. A quick painless death could be considered a 'cheat' in a way because the spirit is not getting the time it may need to come to grips with death. If I died right now I would go missing the books I like to read, and the movies I like, and my house, and my dogs, and my family. If I have a long illness in which to prepare spiritually I might come to accept the letting go of earthly things and be able to help my family cope after I'm gone because I'll let them know that I'm ready and it's OK. Mom's suffering was harder on me most of the time, then it was on her. I've heard of many others who deal with long illnesses in the family being the same way - and our Hospice workers said the same thing - at the end the comfort seems to come from the person who is dying and given to the people left behind. Often there is survivor's guilt associated with this.

Then why doesn't everyone die a lingering death? The man killed in a car accident did not get the benefit of preparing his spirit for death. Why not?

 

Beyond that, there are people who wish to avoid a lingering death, but they are prohibited from suicide because of the religious faith of others.

 

No. I know there are people who think there is, but there is no evidence to suggest that.

 

Yes, but not with the same sick bodies as before. If reincarnation is true then it just another form of rebirth.

And you could come back as a roach, or deformed, or what have you, all based on your prior performance.

 

Faith has no evidence. It is not expected to have evidence. That is a human and worldly expectation - not a spiritual/faithful one.

It is true, faith has no evidence. Yet it makes people certain about things in the natural world, and makes them certain about areas of human behavior.

 

But what body? I don't take that literally. It can heal - that has been documented, but is it God-healing or something of our own creation - that we can heal ourselves through an amazing focus of our minds that is attributed to God. I read that "body" as a whole, not an individual body. A body or group or congregation of believers - their souls can be healed of hatred, bigotry, unbelief, sins. A 'body' of people, not an individual body.

So Jesus healing the blind in the Bible is a metaphor? Him casting demons into pigs is a metaphor? Sorry, but that is disingenuous. The amazing focus of the mind you talk about has not been documented reliably, in point of fact.

 

There are about 150 million Americans who don't agree with you about the healing metaphor. Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff makes millions each year off the fact that it isn't a metaphor. As I have mentioned before, people withhold medicine or don't seek medical treatment because they don't see it as a metaphor.

 

There is a passage in the Bible about believers being immune to poison and snake bite, as well as healing.

Mark 16:18

“They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

 

Again, it is torturing the text to see this as a metaphor, but that is beside the point. There are people--millions of them--who think that this is literally true. There are people in Appalachia who drink poison and handle snakes to show the depth of their faith. And they die. George Hensley, the man who started this particular cult, was bitten by a snake, refused medical treatment, and he died. So much for faith being harmless.

 

Perhaps there are many "Heavens" or perhaps God is the same and it is belief in Him - no matter what He is called or what practice worships and that death and Heaven is simply being where God is and there it doesn't matter what organized religion was the path to Him. I was raised in a predominatly Christian country and society so I'm more familiar with that than with other religions.

 

Maybe. There is no evidence one way or the other. But there are people who make very specific claims about how to get to Heaven, what it means, and what society should be like. You know it, and I know it.

 

Not all believers, and I'm not angry. My loss is still fresh and it did hurt a bit when I read that - but I'm not angry. I would love to think of mom still existing and being content - but honestly I believe that she simply no longer exists, just as she did not exist before she was conceived.

 

That is the most rational position. And I am glad you are not angry, and I did not mean for my comments to cause you any discomfort, so please accept my apology in that case. As I said, I do not for one second believe that, but there are people on these very forums who do.

[Moai]

Not all people of faith believe in Creationism.

 

Really? I had no idea. Thanks for the information.

 

Not all people of faith are Christians. But there are about 150 million people in the Untied States that do believe in Creationism in one form or other. There is a brand new museum in Kentucky dedicated to Creationism--Grand Opening May 28th! Prepare to BELIEVE!

 

You make it seem as if the fact that you don't believe such things that nobody does, or that those who do are so few in number as to be a fringe minority. That is not the case.

 

Not only that, but your more moderate faith and the objections you raise in its defense shelter their more radical beliefs from scrutiny.

 

This is not an apt analogy. Believing that Zeus existed was not part of Greek religion. It was a religion rooted in practice, not belief; the ritualistic worship of Greek gods was central to Greek society and arts, the question of whether they existed was not integral to the religion.

Yes, it is a perfect analogy. Nobody spoke about "believing" in the gods because their existence was taken as a given. So yes, believing in Zeus WAS a part of Greek religion--or more properly, religions. "Your oracles are meaningless!!!!" Is that arrogant, am I being too strident, or should i be more civil to those oracle-believers?

 

If you don't want to use the word Zeus, try Thor or Cthulhu and the point is the same. Or substitute "astrology," it makes no difference. My point is that nobody would accuse me of being arrogant or somesuch because I deny that Cthulhu exists and think belief in him is silly. I am sure if I substituted Islam for Christianity there would be little problem as well.

 

What makes you so certain that it's scriptural condemnation? Eating pork is condemned in the same book of the Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, with the same Hebrew word, yet Christians never persecute pork-eaters. Religious rhetoric against homosexuals is not evidence that religion causes homophobia. If it weren't in the Bible, people who hate gays could easily find a different reason.

That is because most Christians eat pork. They also believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law and that he made it ok to eat pork. He also made it ok to ignore most of the commandments in the Old Testament. It isn't true, but they believe that. They don't stone people to death for working on Sunday, either. Just examples of how believers generally accept the easy parts of the Bible or substitute other, more rational beliefs for the ones in god's book when it suits them.

 

And what makes me sure that it is god-belief that causes homophobia is the rhetoric of these people themselves. It isn't like I am just making it up, or that I want it to be based on the Bible but it isn't. Go to the Focus on the Family website if you don't believe me. Here's a link: http://www.family.org/socialissues/A000000782.cfm Enjoy!

 

If not for believing homosexuality as a sin, how could anyone possibly see anything wrong with it? You don't see people getting killed or denied rights simply because they are into BD/SM do you? People that have a foot fetish aren't seen as a major threat to morality in this country, are they?

 

It's funny that one of Dobson's biggest supporters and friends was recently caught doing speed and had a relationship with a gay prostitute. Comedy!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html

 

Doesn't it bother you that men like that would regularly have conferences with the President of the United States? This guy is a Creationist, by the way, and he and GWB would talk regularly about Biblical prophecy and how to combat the moral outrages they see as rampant in our nation. They both believe that Jesus is DEFINITELY coming back some time in the next 50 years. And one of them has access to nuclear weapons. Tell me again how faith is harmless, and that it is none of my business to criticize it, or I shouldn't care....sheesh.

[Moai]

Hear your concerns but do nothing? So, what you are saying is God is your invisible therapist?

 

:laugh: that's an amusing thought! Naw, just an ever-lovin' parent who is concerned about my needs and fears and desires and etc. Kind of like the pluperfect version of my mother.

 

An invisible mother who never answers you, and doesn't do anything one way or the other.

 

Again, I quote Matthew 7:7 … That sounds to me that god is a wishy-wash wish granting Santa Claus. a true believer isn't gonna keep a Christmas list of wants like a greedy five-year-old, but rather, asks for guidance in decision-making, in coming to terms with what's going on, in knowing how to respond to a certain need. I still stand firmly in my belief that the biggest mountain that needs to be conquered is the human heart, and I feel this is what your other Scripture passage refers to (faith moving a mountain). The Matthew quote above talks about having faith in knowing that what you need – not "want" – most will be given to you. That you're not alone out there, but that Someone sees your needs and will provide for you simply out of love for you.

 

You may believe that, but millions of others disagree. Watch BET late-night, or TBN anytime if you don't believe me. Creflo Dollar is another great one for this. It goes like this: If you give me money, you are sowing your seed in God's house, and God will grow that seed, and return it to you TENFOLD! Praise Jesus! If you have faith, all your financial needs will be met--praise God--and you will see an end to poverty!

 

I am not making that up, and I am not making up the fact that millions of people believe this. Most believers do to some extent. And while you see it as faith in the human heart or whatever, the vast majority of believer's don't.

 

I would also add that if your stance is the correct one, why didn't the Bible make tat more clear? How is that a book inspired by God doesn't have a clear definition about how to pray, what to pray for, and how prayer works? Every believer thinks that it does, yet they disagree greatly. How come?

 

And what does your stronger faith result in? Does it make you a better person, or help you to figure out moral questions better? It makes me strive to be the best person I can be, even when I feel murderous rage at someone. You talk about irrational behavior on a wide-scale level ... I see it in my own family and struggle greatly with trying to do right by those very people who hurt me because it's the only way they feel they can keep me in check. Which sucks, but my faith keeps me from devolving into the kind of people they are. And my faith allows me to respond with more love and patience than I realize I possess when I deal with them ... it's not my own natural inclination, but God working through me. You can call it what you want, but I know that it's only the grace of God that allows me to respond this way. Otherwise I'd be one of those hot-headed kooks beating the shxt out of people for stupid behavior I don't agree with. ("If your pastor gave a sermon telling you to kill unbelievers, would you? Why not?")

 

I too strive to be a more moral person every day, and yet I need no faith in an invisible super-being to do so. I would assert that you are the one doing all the work to be better, and that it is your nature to ignore those murderous inclinations. I am truly sorry that you have issues with your family the way you do. Far be it for be to tell you how to deal with your situation, but I don't think that you give yourself enough credit.

 

They are only recent examples. There are hundreds and hundreds more. Is it irrational of me to notice the reasons behind such things? It was their FAITH that led them to their tragic end. I am just reasonable enough to admit it. I don't disput that it's their flawed faith that has led them to irrational acts; I'm just saying that for all those hundreds and hundreds of people, there are millions of people who exist who don't model their faith in that manner. However, I think a common misconception is that by pointing holding up as a model that handful of whacked-out extremist believers, we fail to see that the average believer is moderate in their stance. People want the extremes to be the norm, and when they repeat these things often enough eventually people come to accept it as "truth," when it's not:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070520183447.htm

 

I am aware of that. It's funny, but the news aids in this. On a particular issue there may be a tiny minority who has an alternate view, but because they get equal time on some debate show the perception is that there is a huge movement when in fact it is a small number at best.

 

But that is not the case here. There are numerous polls to show that such irrationality is rampant. I am aware that not all faithful are faithful to the same degree, but the fanatical have more influence, are far more dangerous, and far more prevalent than most moderate believers are willing to accept. And that is part of the problem: in defending your more moderate position, you are giving aid to and protecting the more radical. To not challenge your faith, or to see such things as none of anyone else's business provides insulation from criticism to those who would dominate and control society more than either of us would like.

[Moai]

Some people have said the onus is on believers to "prove" that God communicates with us. (Diamonds and Rust compared that to proving the existence of love.) I would put forth the analogy of music. Who can prove that music is real?

 

What if it is just a jumble of notes that some people are genetically preprogrammed to find stimulating. Just bunches of notes, not music. Does anyone really believe that?

 

Actually, yes. That's why taste in music varies so much. But we have evidence that there is such a thing a music, also.

 

Here is a related story from Tales of the Hassidim, compiled by Martin Buber:

 

I get the point, but the deaf man is making several mistakes in his reasoning, were this the case. He obviously could see the fiddle player, and when the fiddle player stopped the dancing would stop, so he could gather that the fiddle playing activity was the cause of the dancing. I would also doubt that the deaf man was unaware that other people can hear, as he must see them talk to one another.

 

To put it another way, if you walk into a room and everyone is rolling around on the ground, and screaming and chattering unintelligibly and your senses are working as they should, you would think that these people are mad as hatters. You may have missed the sign that describes the building as a Pentacostal church, or these people are crazy.

 

Let's say you are there to warn these people about an approaching storm. They tell you that they are aware of the storm,, and that they are praying and that will protect them from certain death that is moments away. What do you do? Leave them to die, knowing that what they are doing will have no effect? Do you join in with them? Do you insist that they flee, because you know that what they are doing will not help them?

[amerikajin]

The simple fact is that no prayer is EVER answered. If you pray for something that goes against the laws of physics or outside of the norms of probability god remains silent.

 

I know that is because god does not exist.

 

Bzzzzzzzzzp! Wrong.

 

You didn't bother to consider that maybe God has no intention of violating the laws of physics, or that God simply, for whatever reason, doesn't intervene; that doesn't preclude the existence of God.