michelangelo Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Well it appears we agree more than we disagree. I don't know how much time is too long or too short, all I know is that the OP claims he is sticking it out for the children and the children are witness to all this anger, there is no way it is not being manifested at home in one way or another, therefore if he is unwilling to seek therapy, unwilling to get past the anger and most of all unwilling to forgive, he might as well stay for his own personal selfish reasons ie. revenge, NOT for the children. JMO How are we to know that he is exhibiting extreme hostility daily at home? he says he vents here and does not treat her badly. So let's say he and his wife made a different choice, to part. Who's to say that the children then witnessing a string of men parading through their house as she dates her years away is better than the current situation?
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 How are we to know that he is exhibiting extreme hostility daily at home? he says he vents here and does not treat her badly. So let's say he and his wife made a different choice, to part. Who's to say that the children then witnessing a string of men parading through their house as she dates her years away is better than the current situation? Ok so let me see if I understand what you're saying on the one hand we shouldn't assume that given his level of anger that he displays on here and the things he says in a negative light about his W in a lot of his posts is not ok to assume that he is displaying his resentment at home, but when we look at the possibility of them splitting it IS safe to assume there will be a parade of men coming around the house making it an unhealthy environment for the children? I dunnow, you know, dispite SC's hateful comments I feel for the guy, I really do. I understand his resentment and I gotta give him this much it takes a strong person to decide to stay with a cheater and to try to overcome the deceit. But I just don't sense that he is doing anything positive to come to terms with what happened or that he is looking for ways to actually grow from the whole experience, and I don't see how that can be healthy for him or the family. I'm not saying play a blind eye at the fact that his W did a very rotten thing, I'm just saying that if you choose to stay with a cheater, you also have to do your part to meet them half way in that you need to try to come to some form of agreement on how you will both grow from said experience. I think 8 months is a long time to be carrying around so much hate, and I can easily see this turning out for the worse. It's just not going to magically fix itself. I know she needs to work extra hard at reassuring him and making him feel safe again, but he needs to do his part to. The onis is not 100% on her it's just too much to expect of another human being, fault or no fault you they both need to paly their part. He doesn't see the point in therapy because of some of the posts that he has read here, and it doesn't look like they can do it on their own, so what are the options? You know HC/SC when people post their stories/experiences on a public board such as this one you will find that the reason they are doing so is because they are looking for more answers to their problems. So it's safe to assume that the cases of those who have gone to therapy and it's worked for them are not going to start threads about how much better their lives are. Those people are out there living their new and improved lives (regardless of therapy I mean people who found a way to make it work) It's usually the people who are still in some state of distress that turn here so to think that just because some people here had ill experiences it doesn't mean that ALL experiences after A's or even with therapy are negative ones. Please reconsider your views on therapy if you are only going to judge by what you read here. Resentment can and will destroy you and you seem to love your children deeply I have no doubt about your wanting what is best for them, and what is best for them is a dad and mom who can make them feel safe, that includes taking care of your own emotional problems. HC Perhaps your W is not doing enough to prove to you that you can feel safe with her again, I don't know.... but it's the kind of thing that if you can't seem to get your needs across to her and neither can she, then therapy can help you to communicate with one another and to actually "listen" as opposed to hearing one another, which is what a lot of couples tend to do.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 But that's not what I was saying; my point is that what he initially posted is a valid feeling of 'ha! you're jealous, and screw you' that I'm sure anyone who's been cheated on can relate to. And I think people read him the riot act because of his previous posts and his posting record, and kind of didn't actually listen to what he was saying in that post. JMO. Thing is serial...for those who stay in the marriage for whatever reason...the cheater has exiled the BS to a lifetime of never forgetting the pain they caused...yet the people who defend the cheaters think the cheater should get off without some sort of hardship themselves. The BS gets this burden for a lifetime...but the cheater isn't suppose to receive any grief over a period of say a year? uh....ok. If I was a cheater, I'd expect and not blame the person I hurt to give me shi!t for a while...I'd deserve it. And why shouldn't I be able to say to her, "now you know how I feel"?? I don't say anything to her on a daily basis...I don't want to. I don't want to talk about it. The best thing she can do is shut her mouth about anything that has to do with cheating.....so when she tried to imply that I'm looking to hook up with someone else...thats when I couldn't take it anymore. I'm already swallowing alot and bottling up alot of resentment for the sake of the family....then she goes off and says that shi!t? Come on. She is in absolutely NO position to question me.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 But that's not what I was saying; my point is that what he initially posted is a valid feeling of 'ha! you're jealous, and screw you' that I'm sure anyone who's been cheated on can relate to. And I think people read him the riot act because of his previous posts and his posting record, and kind of didn't actually listen to what he was saying in that post. JMO. Thing is serial...for those who stay in the marriage for whatever reason...the cheater has exiled the BS to a lifetime of never forgetting the pain they caused...yet the people who defend the cheaters think the cheater should get off without some sort of hardship themselves. The BS gets this burden for a lifetime...but the cheater isn't suppose to receive any grief over a period of say a year? uh....ok. If I was a cheater, I'd expect and not blame the person I hurt to give me shi!t for a while...I'd deserve it. And why shouldn't I be able to say to her, "now you know how I feel"?? I don't say anything to her on a daily basis...I don't want to. I don't want to talk about it. The best thing she can do is shut her mouth about anything that has to do with cheating.....so when she tried to imply that I'm looking to hook up with someone else...thats when I couldn't take it anymore. I'm already swallowing alot and bottling up alot of resentment for the sake of the family....then she goes off and says that shi!t? Come on. She is in absolutely NO position to question me.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 First of all your original post stated that you ended up in a big fight, if you wanted no part of it why did turn into a big fight?. I wanted no part of a fight that she started. I would have preferred she not start a fight...especially with a topic she has no business accusing me of.
whichwayisup Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 HC, can I ask something? Did you ever read that link I supplied for you by DazednConfused? Just think that if you sat and read his thread (it's a long one) you could gain some real perspective from what he went through and how he dealt with his cheating wife. I'll go find the link and post it again either way.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Well it appears we agree more than we disagree. I don't know how much time is too long or too short, all I know is that the OP claims he is sticking it out for the children and the children are witness to all this anger, there is no way it is not being manifested at home in one way or another You are not there.....you don't have a clue.
whichwayisup Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t40398/ TC, he has said OVER AND OVER AND OVER again that he doesn't display hate or anger at home. He has said he comes here and vents, goes to the gym to take out his frustrations so when he IS home, he's feeling good and happy. You seem to have painted him with a pissed off face, grumpy ALL the time at home, waiting to fight with his wife. I don't understand why you don't believe HC when he says he keeps this stuff away from the kids as much as possible. All you know is what HC has shared. You don't know him, how he is at home, his mannerisms, how he is daily with his wife. Obviously it's not ALL bad seeing as they sleep in the same bed, live the same house and parent their kids together. For you to assume that he's abusive towards his wife, even after he says he isn't, is just crazy. Why keep arguing with him when he keeps telling you that's not how it is. It's pointless and not getting you or him anywhere. You've given some good advice, when you're not attacking him...But you keep on putting your own spin on how YOU think he is at home, and you're wrong.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 I know she needs to work extra hard at reassuring him and making him feel safe again, but he needs to do his part to. The onis is not 100% on her it's just too much to expect of another human being, fault or no fault you they both need to paly their part. Why not? The burden of having to remember what she did to me will be there for the rest of my life 100%....what is her burden? She won't be feeling guilty a few years from now any longer about what she did....yet I'll still have to remember what she did from time to time....so you want to talk about too much to expect of another human being....how about expecting someone so be the one to suck it up even though the hurt will be there in some way shape or form from here on out. HC Perhaps your W is not doing enough to prove to you that you can feel safe with her again BINGO...I even told her this last week that she hasn't done a damn thing to make amends...and until I start seeing something...there won't be any change. I tell you what...if I ever did do therapy, which I'll admit will be a longshot, the first mention from a therapist that I need to understand "why" she cheated...I'll stand up and say, "ok...this conversation is over, so is the therapy, and I'm out of here".
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 HC, can I ask something? Did you ever read that link I supplied for you by DazednConfused? Just think that if you sat and read his thread (it's a long one) you could gain some real perspective from what he went through and how he dealt with his cheating wife. I'll go find the link and post it again either way. Ya I read it...and the moral of that story to me was..."if 95% of a perfect husband isn't enough...cheat on him and you'll get the other 5% out of him" I bet his wife thought, "gee..I should cheat more often to get what I want from my husband".
whichwayisup Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 The onis is not 100% on her it's just too much to expect of another human being, Uhh, it IS up to her 100% to prove to him that she was wrong, to not only show in words, but in actions too that she is capable of change, and can earn his trust again. She has to admit HER wrongs, as in choosing to cheat on him. He deserves the truth and she needs to own up to it, take repsonsibility for her actions. ANY therapist is gonna PUSH her to do this. If she can't do this for her husband, then she should say goodbye now and end the marriage.
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 BINGO...I even told her this last week that she hasn't done a damn thing to make amends...and until I start seeing something...there won't be any change. I tell you what...if I ever did do therapy, which I'll admit will be a longshot, the first mention from a therapist that I need to understand "why" she cheated...I'll stand up and say, "ok...this conversation is over, so is the therapy, and I'm out of here". Sounds like you are afraid to know why she did it....if it could mean something coming back to the dynamic you could have had with her at the time...
whichwayisup Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Ya I read it...and the moral of that story to me was..."if 95% of a perfect husband isn't enough...cheat on him and you'll get the other 5% out of him" I bet his wife thought, "gee..I should cheat more often to get what I want from my husband". In time, when the anger and pain isn't bubbling under the surface, re-read his thread again. Don't think you're in the right mindset these days to be open to what I was hoping you'd get from his situation and how he handled things. Just wish he was still around posting because I really think he could help you through this.
whichwayisup Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 if it could mean something coming back to the dynamic you could have had with her at the time... Why are you blaming HIM for her choice to cheat on him?? It sounds like you're about to go there again. And, remember, the cheating that he knows of 100% for sure happened BEFORE they were married.
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Uhh, it IS up to her 100% to prove to him that she was wrong, to not only show in words, but in actions too that she is capable of change, and can earn his trust again. She has to admit HER wrongs, as in choosing to cheat on him. He deserves the truth and she needs to own up to it, take repsonsibility for her actions. ANY therapist is gonna PUSH her to do this. If she can't do this for her husband, then she should say goodbye now and end the marriage. Uhhh and it's up to him 100% to do his part in the matter. So if you add up both sides of the equation it adds up to 200% which means 50/50. If she is doing her 100% he sure as heck better be doing his part but I don't see him even trying. The only thing he is doing is staying, that's not doing his part...that's just staying. If he won't even admit to himself the possbility of understanding what happened then there is no hope that he will EVER forgive. All you know is what HC has shared. You don't know him, how he is at home, his mannerisms, how he is daily with his wife. Obviously it's not ALL bad seeing as they sleep in the same bed, live the same house and parent their kids together. For you to assume that he's abusive towards his wife, even after he says he isn't, is just crazy. Why keep arguing with him when he keeps telling you that's not how it is. It's pointless and not getting you or him anywhere. You've given some good advice, when you're not attacking him...But you keep on putting your own spin on how YOU think he is at home, and you're wrong Excuse me but I know what he manifests here and I don't see you knowing any more than any of us, your "assumptions"are also just that, ASSUMPTIONS. so you stick to your ""assumptions"and I'll stick to mine, capiche? So if you think I'm wrong, that's your assumption and quite frankly I don't give a damn if you think I am right or wrong. And HC is a grown man he can defend himself if needs be, don't think he needs you stepping in to cheer lead for him, if he has a bone to pick with me in regards to my opinions he voices them quite well on his own.
Art_Critic Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 HC, Nobody seems to give you any advice that you can grab a hold of and use.. Even people in your corner you don't use their advice. If you are here to just blow off steam then why don't you do that with a therapist that can actually do you some good ? I think you need a therapist.. and if you are using LS as your therapist then I think we are in over our heads.. Your marriage isn't fixable with anything we can tell you as you don't seem to use any advice that anyone gives you. You are going to have to fix it yourself... LS is a web forum of people just like yourself.. We are all just people bouncing ideas off each other..
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 HC, You seem to have all the answers.. nobody seems to give you any advice that you can grab a hold of and use.. Why are you here ? If you are here to just blow off steam then why don't you do that with a therapist that can actually do you some good ? I think you need a therapist.. and if you are using LS as your therapist then I think we are in over our heads.. Your marriage isn't fixable with anything we can tell you as you don't seem to use any advice that anyone gives you. You are going to have to fix it yourself. LS is a web forum of people just like yourself.. We are all just people bouncing ideas off each other.. What is it you are after on LS ? My guess is he is just looking to antagonise anyone who falls under the category of undesirable, much like what he thinks of his W. He is not looking to improve, progress or even understand his anger he just wants another outlet for his anger thinking it's therapeutic, but I just don't think that you can compartmentalize your anger from a place like this and your every day life, people are as they are here when they interact with others in daily life. Sorry I just don't buy it that he uses this as an outlet and that's it because it's as you said AC he just brushes all opinions off, he just does not want to move past the state he is in and fails to see the harm he is doing to himself let alone his family. You really don't have to be a psychiatrist or a trained professional to see that WWIU. If you miss the point then that's your mishap.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Sounds like you are afraid to know why she did it....if it could mean something coming back to the dynamic you could have had with her at the time... I don't care why she did it. If it were because she didn't think all my efforts were enough for her...or because she just cannot resist another man's advance...whatever...it doesn't matter. The only thing that matter to me is that she DID cheat. I have already said...I did everything in my power to show her that she was everything to me. I don't believe that when someone bends over backwards to make someone happy, that one should then break his back completely to keep their SO from cheating. Nobody is perfect....my wife sure as hell wasn't perfect back then either....but did I cheat on her? No.
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 I don't care why she did it. If it were because she didn't think all my efforts were enough for her...or because she just cannot resist another man's advance...whatever...it doesn't matter. The only thing that matter to me is that she DID cheat. I have already said...I did everything in my power to show her that she was everything to me. I don't believe that when someone bends over backwards to make someone happy, that one should then break his back completely to keep their SO from cheating. Nobody is perfect....my wife sure as hell wasn't perfect back then either....but did I cheat on her? No. What if she did it because it was her lame ass way to get your attention...or because she was feeling neglected or better yet simply because she needed her ego stroked because she had low self esteem. Maybe she didna't think through the repercutions of her actions, maybe maybe maybe....at the end of the day it DOESN'T matter why if all that matter is she hurt you like that, but understanding sometimes takes some of the burden off of your shoulders, that's another unecessary weight you are carrying and you might not even realise it. Why did she tell you about it now after all these years anway...? Keep meaning to ask..
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 I I have already said...I did everything in my power to show her that she was everything to me. I don't believe that when someone bends over backwards to make someone happy, that one should then break his back completely to keep their SO from cheating. . Also you idea of bending over backwards may not be her idea of what she needs. Look I am not saying analyse what you did to "push"her to cheat but it's worht looking at what each other's needs were/are. why did she do it, what does she say? why would she do that? have you asked her?
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 What if she did it because it was her lame ass way to get your attention She had my attention...and plenty of it. We went everywhere and did everything together...never withheld affection either. ...or because she was feeling neglected or better yet simply because she needed her ego stroked because she had low self esteem. If she had low self-esteem no matter how much I told her she was gorgeous...then it isn't my problem. Maybe she didna't think through the repercutions of her actions, maybe maybe maybe Maybe maybe maybe....and after all that..I still don't care "why"....all that matters is that she did. I could see if I was a physically or emotionally abusive person...but it wasn't the case in any way shape or form. Having said that, then it makes absolutely no difference "why". Why did she tell you about it now after all these years anway...? Keep meaning to ask.. She didn't tell me...a friend of hers that I haven't seen in forever that she pissed off told me....I was a put out by her friend not telling me and this could have all been avoided. Her friend told me that she was sorry and that back then they didn't have the bad blood between them and didn't want to be the cause of her marriage not happening. Only reason she told me is because she asked how we were doing, then spilled the beans because she already thought I knew. She was quite surprised when she realized that I had no idea.
hardcase Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 Also you idea of bending over backwards may not be her idea of what she needs. Look I am not saying analyse what you did to "push"her to cheat but it's worht looking at what each other's needs were/are. why did she do it, what does she say? why would she do that? have you asked her? She just gave the old bullshi!t answers..."it just happened and I was stupid". And if what I was giving her wasn't enough to keep her from cheating...then f#ck it....a man can only give so much until there is nothing of himself left. And thats exactly my case..I gave and gave and never did anything for myself. But you can better believe I am gonna be taking care of my needs from here on out.
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 She just gave the old bullshi!t answers..."it just happened and I was stupid". And if what I was giving her wasn't enough to keep her from cheating...then f#ck it....a man can only give so much until there is nothing of himself left. And thats exactly my case..I gave and gave and never did anything for myself. But you can better believe I am gonna be taking care of my needs from here on out. Well that is pretty bull***** answer, it doesn't "just happen" and there is always a reason. Would knowing it had nothing to do with you make a difference at all? why did she think you knew? Was this a full on A or a sexual fling? ohh you found out from her friend not her directly? would you not have married her if you found out then? If she had low self-esteem no matter how much I told her she was gorgeous...then it isn't my problem. of course not, that is her problem 100% But if you could get your head around that it might ease some of the pain you feel.
Tomcat33 Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 The bottom line is and I took full note of it, is that you say don't feel that she is doing her part to make you feel safe again. That's very important, Do you communicate this to her? And if so how? She does need to pull her weight but also you must not meet her with resistance because she is just going to fight it more, and the more you resist each other the futher you drift from your ultimate goal, and it is to gain some sort of safety again, and initimacy..I'm sure the intimacy is not where it should be (I dont mean in a sexual way 'that will take a long time and can only come with the rest...I mean intimacy in the whole aspect of it the connection of trust, admiration, respect and most of all friendhship.
NoIDidn't Posted May 15, 2007 Posted May 15, 2007 TC If you are anything, you are definitely a trooper. I don't agree with much of what you post on the other forum, but I do here. SC/HC is not trying to help himself. Anger and resentment are the quick path to divorce. I usually agree with WWIU but I so don't in his case. This man is hellbent on being as angry as he can possibly be. There is just no way possible that he can be this nasty on a forum of complete strangers and not be so towards his W and kids. I just don't buy it. He is starting to sound like the perfect MM. "I do everything for my family" "My W just doesn't appreciate me" "She cheated on me" "She deserves whatever I decide to give her" "I was the perfect H" and on and on and on. I think that SC was a caldron of anger just waiting to boil over anyways. I don't like his venting one bit. Like SM, I too, wish he would tone it down. I may not agree with the choices of the OPs, but I am not going to call them names or make the nastiest comments that I can make. Here we have the pot calling the kettle black. He says mean and purposely hurtful things to the OPs in their forum, but then if it is even almost thrown back at him he says "you are trying to hurt me". And he is in for a real surprise if and when he does D his W. She will more than likely get custody of the kids and the house. And not because she is a woman as has been implied. He is clearly unstable. He doesn't answer questions directly unless he is able to get in a dig about his W. A judge is going to make note of that. His poor kids will probably be subjected to hearing about their "whore" of a mother for decades to come from a dad that just will not move on from how perfect he was and what she "DID" to him. SC is officially bitter. And that's a tough place to move on from. Its anger now, it will be rage later. I am starting to think that she what she did didn't bring this out of him, per se. It had to be in there already to be brought out. This is a trainwreck in the making. And its not sad anymore. Its down right pathetic. (And SC, I didn't say you were pathetic before you use your skills of deflection and place words where they were not)
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