Trialbyfire Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 While I am quite sure, Nancy that I cannot change your opinion about extramarital realtionships (We are all here to imprint our opinions to others, not to change ours, don't we?), I want to take your answer as an inducement to refine my posting a bit. "Betrayal just happens" is indeed easily misunderstood because it's clear that from a certain point even the seduced partner must "do" something. What I wanted to convey is that - and I am talking about my own case 20 years ago - when someone is starved for years he or she is an easy prey for an intruder: helpless, defenceless, willing but not necessarily active. That's not meant as an excuse, just as an explanation. @ trialbyfire: All discussions making the "cheater" a criminal and the other partner a poor victim are idle. No counselor would ever have any success with such a procedure. I just checked my balls and can tell you that I took nearly 22 years to work on the issues. Then decided to go. You may blame me for blaming someone else .... And you really want to appeal to all who once made a faux pas to leave their partners in the instant? Refer to the bolded text. First, you were a victim to your wife's issues, then you became a victim to your OWs wiles. Overall, there's only one thread of continuity in both situations. YOU. Time to take responsibility for yourself and work on what's broken inside you first, before you run around throwing blame on other people for making you unhappy. Neither women should be solely responsible for your happiness. If a marriage is irreconcileable, then it's time to walk. No use making both parties miserable in something that should be the meeting of hearts and minds. Link to post Share on other sites
nancyleeh Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 While I am quite sure, Nancy that I cannot change your opinion about extramarital realtionships (We are all here to imprint our opinions to others, not to change ours, don't we?), We are in agreement. I want to take your answer as an inducement to refine my posting a bit. "Betrayal just happens" is indeed easily misunderstood because it's clear that from a certain point even the seduced partner must "do" something. What I wanted to convey is that - and I am talking about my own case 20 years ago - when someone is starved for years he or she is an easy prey for an intruder: helpless, defenceless, willing but not necessarily active. That's not meant as an excuse, just as an explanation.@ trialbyfire: All discussions making the "cheater" a criminal and the other partner a poor victim are idle. No counselor would ever have any success with such a procedure. As one who has been betrayed and now lives with an impotent man for many years, I do hear what you are saying. One can be easy prey if they allow themselves to be preyed upon. And not to change your mind but only to state my own opinion based on experience, when my husband betrayed me, it was his choice and one he made with a free will and without mental disability and did so while having a wife who was more than willing to engage in sex with him. A choice, that is what he made. As for living without sex, since he is now impotent, it is my choice to honor the marraige and for go sex. Not an easy choice by all means, but still....a choice. I could get in a mindset that allowed me to begin an affair but I'd divorce him before I made that choice. See, that word choice again.... nancyleeh Link to post Share on other sites
LabradorsGalor Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I can't imagine anyone deciding to have an affair in an effort to strengthen their marriage. Anyone who would do that would need to have something fairly far off-center in their head. That doesn't mean, though, that IF the marriage survives an affair that it isn't stronger than it was before the affair. The affair, though, isn't what made it stronger, the survival is. We've all heard the saying "whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger", well, it's the same for a marriage. There aren't very many marriages that survive infidelity. Those that do survive as a marriage, (not just two people living in the same house angry and bitter - just sticking it out for the sake of the kids, etc.) are stronger by virtue of the hard work that both partners put into fixing the marriage after D-Day. Thanks for the insight. Reading this is extremely helpful for me to keep focused on working on my relationship. I'm willing to put the hard work in and if my wife and I choose to end our marriage, I know that I won't have any regrets in terms of working on my marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Till-Andy Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 First, you were a victim to your wife's issues, then you became a victim to your OWs wiles. Overall, there's only one thread of continuity in both situations. YOU. Time to take responsibility for yourself and work on what's broken inside you first The advice comes a bit late but fortunately I've already followed it: I did not want to be a victim of my first wife and seperated from her. If a marriage is irreconcileable, then it's time to walk.The affair with the OW was abandoned by me after a year or so. ( about five years before the separation) If there was anything broken inside me it has healed perfectly since. I did take care of myself and found myself a wife I've been happy with for a while. I cannot remember run around throwing blame on other people for making me unhappy. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 and I am talking about my own case 20 years ago - when someone is starved for years he or she is an easy prey for an intruder: helpless, defenceless, willing but not necessarily active. That's not meant as an excuse, just as an explanation. This was said by you. An intruder. Right. We all have at one time or another been solicited, some of us more often than once, but chose to honour our commitments. You are casting blame on the OW, where the blame, if you can be honest with yourself, resides within yourself. The advice comes a bit late but fortunately I've already followed it: I did not want to be a victim of my first wife and seperated from her. The affair with the OW was abandoned by me after a year or so. ( about five years before the separation) If there was anything broken inside me it has healed perfectly since. I did take care of myself and found myself a wife I've been happy with for a while. I cannot remember run around throwing blame on other people for making me unhappy. Why indulge in an affair in the first place? Look at how you refer to your current partner. You may want to consider why people only make you happy for awhile. An affair is your personal choice. No one forces this on you. When you cheat, you force your decision onto your wife of the moment... Not very admirable or even justifiable, at least compared to what I consider a person with integrity. Link to post Share on other sites
LabradorsGalor Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 An affair is your personal choice. No one forces this on you. When you cheat, you force your decision onto your wife of the moment... Not very admirable or even justifiable, at least compared to what I consider a person with integrity. Wow Trial, I understand your anger toward the other person since my wife had an affair. However, I don't think anyone is trying to justify that an affair is a good thing or that there is any excuse for an affair. Rather, I think it is healthy to understand why affairs happen - why otherwise decent, honest, loving people do bad and hurtful things to people they love. Hmmm...wait I think that can be said for both spouses - regardless of who had the affair. You are right, there is nothing that justifies a person having an affair. But in the same breath, it seems to me (but what do I know) that there is little that justifies someone doing mean, spiteful things like withholding love or ignoring or abandoning initimacy or a relationship. Life, love, and relationships, to me, are very complicated and only get more complicated the older I get. Simply saying the only solution is to walk before having an affair ignores that people are human and make mistakes particularly when they are hurting and in pain. For me, I am trying to bring compasion and forgiveness to my relationship...compasion and forgiveness to my wife and to myself. But then again, what do I know? Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 You are right, there is nothing that justifies a person having an affair. But in the same breath, it seems to me (but what do I know) that there is little that justifies someone doing mean, spiteful things like withholding love or ignoring or abandoning initimacy or a relationship. Life, love, and relationships, to me, are very complicated and only get more complicated the older I get. Simply saying the only solution is to walk before having an affair ignores that people are human and make mistakes particularly when they are hurting and in pain. For me, I am trying to bring compasion and forgiveness to my relationship...compasion and forgiveness to my wife and to myself. But then again, what do I know? See, that's what I will never understand. It's not complicated at all. The complication is called gaslighting or justifying. A person is unhappy, gets tempted, folds to the temptation. Very ABC. When you commit, it's not negotiable. When one party severs the commitment, work on reconciliation. If reconciliation isn't possible, walk. Again very ABC. - edit: wrong poster... Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 We are in agreement. As one who has been betrayed and now lives with an impotent man for many years, I do hear what you are saying. One can be easy prey if they allow themselves to be preyed upon. And not to change your mind but only to state my own opinion based on experience, when my husband betrayed me, it was his choice and one he made with a free will and without mental disability and did so while having a wife who was more than willing to engage in sex with him. A choice, that is what he made. As for living without sex, since he is now impotent, it is my choice to honor the marraige and for go sex. Not an easy choice by all means, but still....a choice. I could get in a mindset that allowed me to begin an affair but I'd divorce him before I made that choice. See, that word choice again.... nancyleeh I hope you keep making the RIGHT choice! By the way, why didn't you leave your husband? Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Is it true that betrayal SOMETIMES improves the relationship in the marriage? I mean for example some hubbies work better their marriage after been cheated by their wives? Is it possible? Not in my case....although still fresh, I won't say it can't be okay again...but it will NEVER improve and I will NEVER trust her again...not 100% anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
LabradorsGalor Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 See, that's what I will never understand. It's not complicated at all. The complication is called gaslighting or justifying. A person is unhappy, gets tempted, folds to the temptation. Very ABC. When you commit, it's not negotiable. When one party severs the commitment, work on reconciliation. If reconciliation isn't possible, walk. Again very ABC. - edit: wrong poster... Trial - no one is gaslighting or justifying and to describe being unhappy, tempted and folding as being elementary or basic skips over and completely ignores the complexity of husband/wife relationships that can cause so much pain and hurt (speaking entirely from my experience). If your simple model and view works for you, then great - but recognize it doesn't work for everyone. For me, it goes back to an issue of compasion and forgiveness. I'm not going to pretend for a minute that what my wife did was justifiable, but I'm finding it very helpful to understand that she wasn't alone in getting to a place in our relationship where she was unhappy, tempted, and folded. The journey to that place is the complicated part that isn't always easy to sort out. And I accept my role in helping her get their. I was a bastar# and she was a bitc# toward each other and we both contributed to the vicious dynamic. Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 You can't compare cheating to a heart attack. You've in effect suggested that the cheater is innocent There is NO such thing as an innocent cheater. Simply put, an affair is the moral degradation of the two knowing parties involved, whereby through selfish actions they make a choice to indulge. How is it moral degradation of the betrayed partner? Their morals haven't degraded...only the cheater's. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Trial - no one is gaslighting or justifying and to describe being unhappy, tempted and folding as being elementary or basic skips over and completely ignores the complexity of husband/wife relationships that can cause so much pain and hurt (speaking entirely from my experience). If your simple model and view works for you, then great - but recognize it doesn't work for everyone. For me, it goes back to an issue of compasion and forgiveness. I'm not going to pretend for a minute that what my wife did was justifiable, but I'm finding it very helpful to understand that she wasn't alone in getting to a place in our relationship where she was unhappy, tempted, and folded. The journey to that place is the complicated part that isn't always easy to sort out. And I accept my role in helping her get their. I was a bastar# and she was a bitc# toward each other and we both contributed to the vicious dynamic. Did you revenge cheat? Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 How is it moral degradation of the betrayed partner? Their morals haven't degraded...only the cheater's. SC, did you notice that I put in the adjective of "knowing" partners? This means the cheater and the OW/OM. Link to post Share on other sites
Sup Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 There is NO such thing as an innocent cheater. I agree, that's an Oxymoron. Link to post Share on other sites
nancyleeh Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Sup, I have to say I was crazed at the time I learned he cheated on me, literally an emotional mess. We went for STD testing....both of us....and I did file for divorce which I think probably was a wake up call for him! During that interm of timewe made a decision to work on the relationship instead of ending our marriage. I don't think staying together is always the best thing to do but my husband was willing to do what was needed to again secure our marriage and I also worked on things I could change in myself. That was 7 years ago. Even so, now and then the thoughts of the affair come back to haunt my mind. I do not act out on the thoughts, knowing what is done is done and in the past but it is my opinion that those thoughts are never completely relinquished by the betrayer's partner, even after many years, which is why if I ever feel I can no longer deal with our now sexless marriage, I would leave rather than cheat. I'd like to say that his impotence is just desserts for his betrayal but of course that would be rotten of me especially since the lack of intimacy affects me as well as him. nancyleeh Link to post Share on other sites
Till-Andy Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 ... As for living without sex, since he is now impotent, it is my choice to honor the marraige and for go sex. Not an easy choice by all means, but still....a choice. nancyleeh @ nancyleeh Before I post any improper or invalid argument I'd be intrested to know what happened to your husband - if you are willing to tell it. Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 SC, did you notice that I put in the adjective of "knowing" partners? This means the cheater and the OW/OM. Ah...didn't catch that ....I was like Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Even so, now and then the thoughts of the affair come back to haunt my mind. And after 7 years?....see..this is what the cheaters and OM/OW don't seem to get. They think they should get off so easy, and that the betrayed should just "get over it"...when in reality, they sentenced the BS to a lifetime of these memories coming back to get their blood boiling here and there. I do not act out on the thoughts, knowing what is done is done and in the past but it is my opinion that those thoughts are never completely relinquished by the betrayer's partner Boom!...exactly... well said. Anyone here want tell this person to "get over it"? I'd like to say that his impotence is just desserts for his betrayal but of course that would be rotten of me especially since the lack of intimacy affects me as well as him. nancyleeh Question...how does he feel about the impotence? Is he worried now that you might dole out the betrayal to him like he did to you since he is no longer able to perform? Link to post Share on other sites
LabradorsGalor Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Did you revenge cheat? Trial - why would you even suggest such a thing!!?? Seems you're willing to assume the worst in people. Nothing I've said would even suggest that is I "revenge cheated". And to be clear. NO. I have compasion and understand life is far more complicated for most people than you're painting it out to be. Again, no excuses for cheating, but I understand that good people do bad things that they later regret. I don't know anyone that has not done a foolish, dumb, regretful, bad thing. Having the compasion to live and forgive is critical to one's own happiness. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Trial - why would you even suggest such a thing!!?? Seems you're willing to assume the worst in people. Nothing I've said would even suggest that is I "revenge cheated". And to be clear. NO. I have compasion and understand life is far more complicated for most people than you're painting it out to be. Again, no excuses for cheating, but I understand that good people do bad things that they later regret. I don't know anyone that has not done a foolish, dumb, regretful, bad thing. Having the compasion to live and forgive is critical to one's own happiness. Sorry but right now, I'm not in a forgiving or compassionate space. I was about a month ago but got sucked back into the land of the ever-needy emotional vampire. Save yourself a lifetime more of grief. A cheater is such because of selfish needs. Selfishness rarely goes away. Good luck. Myself, I'd rather stake that emotional vampire from fifty paces away. Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Wow Trial, I understand your anger toward the other person since my wife had an affair. However, I don't think anyone is trying to justify that an affair is a good thing or that there is any excuse for an affair. Rather, I think it is healthy to understand why affairs happen So if my wife cheats just because it was a thrill for her and she was flattered that someone else besides me is attracted to her...how does that help? What difference does it make? Sure..if I was an abusive bastard and neglectful(which the latter is debatable), then maybe you have a point. But if it is just pure selfishness and the thrill of something new, how does it help to know that? Betrayal is betrayal no matter how you slice it...and knowing the reasons doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me. cuz this is what its like if it is important to know "why"...:"oh...you had an affair because it was new and exciting to you? Oh...ok...I understand completely...its ok that you f#cked me over....no problem honey." Link to post Share on other sites
nancyleeh Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Question...how does he feel about the impotence? Is he worried now that you might dole out the betrayal to him like he did to you since he is no longer able to perform? Salicious Crumb, of course he feels awful that he is impotent and so do I but what is, is. I don't think he fears I will cheat on him. I give him no reason to be fearful. nancyleeh Link to post Share on other sites
Carnebor Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 The logic of better marriages being born of infidelity is like saying that breaking my legs will help me have stronger legs. You know, the doctors will set them and then I'll get rehabilitation and the muscles will be strengthened and toned and I'll learn to walk better and...oh! wait. Maybe I can avoid the unnecessary pain of the break by working out, exercising my legs and producing strength and shape. Yeah...I think that's better. Building strong relationships is not like earthquakes producing mountains. The best relationships are more like black lumps of coal enduring pressure for a long time but producing something precious, priceless, and very hard to break...diamonds. Link to post Share on other sites
Salicious Crumb Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Salicious Crumb, of course he feels awful that he is impotent and so do I but what is, is. I don't think he fears I will cheat on him. I give him no reason to be fearful. nancyleeh Well..when I asked the question of how does he feel about it...Ya...I know it has to be difficult for him...but I was more curious as to him worrying about how you might react. The fact that you give him no reason to be fearful, especially after he is known to be unfaithful, says alot about you. I don't think he truly knows how lucky he is. Link to post Share on other sites
a4a Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 well I had a graze with this last night.... right smack in front of the H. I tell you it did give him a little wake up call. I did not do anything out of line but another party did show interest in a very very polite way. Lets say there was a click..... and I instead of normally deflecting it...... I ignored it and just went along innocently. So maybe a little jealousy does help..... maybe not an outright affair.... but a little dose to cause you to remember to appreciate your spouse does work. Link to post Share on other sites
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