I am an idiot - longish rant

[moimeme]

Wow! Gosh, but you certainly have a tale to tell. It was a nice Christmas gift:)

 

This reply may be a little disjointed - it's late and I'm tired but I was so impressed by your story I had to thank you for telling it.

 

I have heard other's stories like yours - people who endured years and years of difficulties but hung in there. Mighty impressive and I'm very glad that it's now the relationship you always knew you'd have - some problems aside. Thank you *very* much for taking the time to tell your tale.

 

Hurt is a big issue. It's too bad he hadn't been diagnosed before; it would have been much easier to deal with him had I known he had these issues. I've known schizophrenics and bipolar people; oddly enough, I may have been better able to deal with someone like that because I knew what to expect but this disorder business is something else.

 

Who knew that someone who's chronically late could have a disorder rather than just be an inconsiderate airhead? For instance, a lot of people know about Obsessive-Compulsive disorder (or they're learning a bit about it if they watch 'Monk') so, if someone takes out a disinfectant cloth and wipes his hands after shaking your hand, you might understand that he's driven by a disorder. If, on the other hand, you'd never heard of such a thing, you'd either be insulted or think he was insane.

 

So, before I could follow how a disordered mind might operate, I was very hurt by his behaviours. Marriage Builders calls it 'love-busters'. Well, my love got busted. Bigtime. Every now and then, a flicker twinkles, but it doesn't last long. I'm not sure if I can fan it back into a flame. I know I'm not really able to decide now. I need lists of my own. I need to purge the anger and hurt, too. We need to start over with this new paradigm.

 

I'm not sure if I'll ever manage to be objective enough to detach from the 'bad' behaviour, so there's no way I'd be able to stay if he doesn't get treated for the behaviours I truly detest. Having said that, I, like you, don't like to jump ship because life is challenging. There's also the matter of his kids - they're quite attached to me and, since their mother is on her second prospective father for them since they broke up (three years ago!) they could stand a little consistency in their lives.

 

Sure, the popular theory today is that one is only responsible to oneself and that one's primary reason for living is to fulfil oneself, but I ain't buying.

 

There is nothing wrong with making sacrifices for someone you love and there is nothing wrong with being hopeful, even when those around you think you are wrong to feel that way.

 

Oh, my goodness! What? 'Make sacrifices for someone you love'? Best duck before you get pelted by the Codependent Police, lady. In this child-addicted society, you can't sacrifice enough for the almighty child, but heaven help the poor fool who doesn't mind doing the same for another adult! After all, once you're grown, you're totally healed and fully capable of managing yourself, even if you were extremely badly wounded as a child, right? You don't deserve anybody helping you, just hie yourself to a nice doctor-person (never mind that there are a lot of 'em who graduate far from the top of the class) and trust your heart and psyche to this stranger. Bah, humbug, says I. Not without making sure the 'stranger' knows what s/he's doing, says I.

 

You're quite right. Not all relationships like yours or mine can or do survive. However, some of us have enough wits about them to be able to figure that out. I did leave the abusive alcoholic. He had two chances in three months. He blew it and I decamped. It didn't take a degree to figure out he was way beyond the reach of my love and, despite what any Psych degreed soul wishes to contend, love can heal - and that's something a person will only get from a friend or lover or family member - not somebody with a pretty paper on the wall. The person with the paper can apply knowledge to untangle the difficulties with rationality or chemical imbalances, but that's just part of a cure.

 

I was healed by someone's affection once. It isn't the cure-all, true, but I believe it's very important. You have healed with your love. What better thing can we do with ourselves and our time? Certainly, dumping this guy isn't going to do much for him when he's already certain he's 'unlovable'.

 

Again, thanks much Hokey. I'm going to keep a copy of your story in my 'Spirit' file for future rereads. You have the love we all want. It took work to get, but doesn't everything of real value?

 

best,

Moimeme

[Just A Girl2]

Yes, Hokey's experience with her husband is wonderful and inspiring...and a true testament of love and commitment.......but do you really think you can compare a situation such as hers, to one such as yours?

 

Maybe I'm off the mark here, but I think it's a hole different story when it comes to problems in a marriage, and the degree of commitment that should be there, and problems that take place in a non-marital relationship.

 

When you're married, at least IMO, you've stood before your partner, friends, family, and God, and you've made a very solemn promise to stick it out, for better or worse, til death do you part, in sickness and in health, etc. Just by the act of making such a solemn lifetime commitment to one another, it SHOULD be expected, to a large degree, that a spouse doesn't hit the door running when things are tough......(although that's very commonplace today).

 

But you're not married, right? Why are you willing to make such a commitment to someone you aren't married to?..who you describe as someone who lacks empathy, who's uncooperative, who's selfish, who's argumentative? .....and what about the fact that you've mentioned that when his 4 children come for the holidays, you wish you could just go to a hotel. I'm not judging you for how you feel........but really, not once have I read anything about being deeply in love with this guy....nor have i read anything about him being deeply in love with you. So, based on all of the above, I'm not sure that you should take comfort in Hokey's situation, and feel more justified in staying with this man.

 

Hokey's husband's situation sounds incredibly different to me. Unless she left some details out, I didn't get the impression that he treated her badly......I only got the impression that her poor husband felt bad about himself, and was deeply discouraged. I gathered from her post that her husband did make much effort to get things sorted out....that he acknowledged that he had problems....that he worked hard to deal with them and overcome them to the degree that he could. Her situation, IMO, really doesn't mirror yours very much at all.

 

I can sort of understand why you're attitude here has turned to one of being on the defensive.......but I am noting some catty comments directed at those who don't agree with you, or to those who question the copious amount of time you've invested, in trying to come up with your boyfriend's possible disorders/problems.

 

Read my response a few posts up.......and what I shared there with you, about "love addiction."

 

I'm not sure I understand your analogy, about how we as a society fight to protect children...well here it is:

 

Oh, my goodness! What? 'Make sacrifices for someone you love'? Best duck before you get pelted by the Codependent Police, lady. In this child-addicted society, you can't sacrifice enough for the almighty child, but heaven help the poor fool who doesn't mind doing the same for another adult! After all, once you're grown, you're totally healed and fully capable of managing yourself, even if you were extremely badly wounded as a child, right? You don't deserve anybody helping you, just hie yourself to a nice doctor-person (never mind that there are a lot of 'em who graduate far from the top of the class) and trust your heart and psyche to this stranger. Bah, humbug, says I. Not without making sure the 'stranger' knows what s/he's doing, says I.

 

 

There's a very distinct fundamental difference between children and adults. Children are innocent. They are helpless for the most part. They must rely solely on adults (parents, relatives, etc) for guidance, security, safety, having their needs met, etc. They obviously don't have the ability to sit down and analyze their behavior, or come to a realization that they might have problems. Adults can. Adults have the ability to be insightful, to reflect, to soul search, to be cognizant of their behavior and actions. Don't you think?

 

I don't buy this stuff about being badly wounded as a child. Well to some degree I do, but I think that nowadays, people are so hellbent on reasons to abdicate themselves of personal responsibility for their problems/behavior/actions/attitudes, by quickly blaming it on their childhood.

 

I had a rotten childhood. A very loveless mother who was abusive physically, mentally, verbally, emotionally. I spent much of my childhood covered in welts from being strapped with a skipping rope (for something irrelevant, like not doing something fast enough for her), listening to her make threats to go downstairs into the basement to load up the shotgun and kill herself, because myself and my sister "were so bad" (we were under the age of 9 here), to having to use all my strength at a very young age, to prevent her hands that were wrapped around my throat/in an attempt to choke me, from actually choking me. Our home was filled with much tension and fear. Not a lot of love. The motto in our home was "children are to be seen and not heard."

 

I went on to go from one abusive relationship with men, to another..including a marriage.

 

I should be filled to the brim with disorders and inadequacies and idiosyncracies and quirks and insecurities and fears and self esteem problems and flashbacks and the like............but I don't think I am. Although my Mother is a different person now, I do not have any kind of real closeness with her, and her domineering, negative, controlling nature still exists......but I am an adult now and I don't have to take her crap, and I don't, and I tell her that. I do realize that a large part of her doesn't accept full responsibility for the way she terrorized me as a child......in her heart, she still feels somewhat justified.....and that she just "didn't know any better."

 

Do I let my childhood be an excuse for treating people (people I"m in a relationship with) like crap? Of course not. And it didn't take me any counselling or psychotherapy or the like to come to this realization.

 

I am a product of my childhood, but there is much good that came from my bad childhood, and my abusive relationships/marriage.....I am now a much stronger person, and i simply don't take crap from anyone, in any shape or form. Instead of the shy little girl I used to be, I am now an assertive woman who takes pleasure in standing up for myself......to have gotten to the place where I feel the freedom to do so.

 

So, without making this all about me, what I'm saying is, a person's bad childhood can only go so far in excusing their bad, toxic behavior. There simply comes a point where as adults, we need to sh*t or get off the pot.......to take responsibility for our problems, or continue to place blame elsewhere.

 

I surely don't expect everyone who's had an abusive, chaotic childhood to be like me........to have gotten to this place of inner strength and confidence in myself.........but oodles of people out there have, it's very possible. I just think that too many people today get caught up in blaming their assh*lishness on their childhood, possible convenient disorders, the way the wind's blowing, etc. Seems like everyone and their dog has a therapist these days. It's almost trendy!

[moimeme]

Gosh - 'just' a girl? Hm. I'll leave it to the Psychs here to deal with that one

 

I think there's a huge difference, and "fine line" between supporting one's partner, and not deserting them in their time of need, and being a martyr and totally losing yourself to be with them/for them.

I do believe I have agreed with others who have said the same..

What exactly are you even *getting* from this relationship, other than well acquainted with the DSM-IV?

Actually, not the DSM-IV. But ask me about 'executive function' and you'll get an earful

 

What am I getting? Educated, if nothing else!

Don't you think it's simply unhealthy/abnormal/absurd, that being in this relationship is exhausting you to the extent that you can't even hold down a job?.

If I had a job, I'd still be there. Just didn't get one after we moved. And, yes, I believe I also said that I had overdone the 'caregiver' bit.

there's MANY men out there who had much worse childhoods?

Well, there is no definitive information yet on what causes disorders. I only speculated that his could be over-developed coping mechanisms. It appears more and more that most mental illnesses are physical, though, largely because many respond very well to medications so this is not an issue of willpower, intelligence, or personal responsibility.

No offense, but did it occur to you that maybe he just doesn't have what it takes to be in a relationship, not in any way related to personality disorders?

Could be. That was my starting position. The interesting thing is that most of these disorders have sets of symptoms that would not be likely to appear together if someone was just a jerk. Not only that, but some of the symptoms are downright peculiar. For instance, people with one type of ADD all are real fussy about their socks and not having any fuzzies in or on their socks! The way the symptoms group are just too odd to appear together randomly, IMHO. One of the reasons I want him diagnosed is precisely to prove he is ill. If his brain shows normal functioning then hooey to him. But I'll bet all of you that there will be a frontal lobe abnormality and possibly some cingulate issues.

 

Thanks for the quotes from the book. I assure you wholeheartedly that they do not describe me. I don't know if you have had to deal with anybody caring for somebody with a chronic illness. I have just been at a workshop given by a counsellor (yes, dears, degree and all) and, for sure, I am suffering 'caregiver burnout'. People who have someone ill in the family do just what I have done - expend too much of themselves on behalf of the sick one. I get it now. I'm fixing that. Thanks anyhoo.

I don't think it's too much to ask, to be with someone who's UNselfish..who possesses a sense of empathy, who is NOT argumentative (which can be a result of being immature, defensive, not able to take constructive criticism, ego problems, etc) and who knows how to cooperate?

No, me neither. Found many? Add to that intelligent, affectionate, spiritual, and a bunch of other things. Even harder to find.

These negative qualities are all on the ADD list. People with ADD, once treated, change quite a bit. He has been working on changes. He was a slob; he has changed his ways at my bidding (it took a bit of persuading, but he did). He is OCD but is managing to get a handle on many of the compulsions. He takes normal-length showers now. He will discuss feelings. He will do a lot of things a lot of guys won't. If I hadn't seen that he has managed to make changes and that he is receptive to information (after a while), I'd already be gone.

Clearly, from the above passage, I don't get the sense at all, that your b/f can admit that he has any problems

Clearly. My fault. I was pretty grumped when I wrote that. It's true, but it's also true, (and I have written this subsequently) that, aside from the OCPD, which is the newest issue, he does definitely admit he has problems - heaps of them.

 

College is not a walk in the park and he must have had to be able to do research, learn, possess a fair degree of self discipline, etc.

His dyslexia is not 'alleged'. It was diagnosed and is very real. And, you are wrong about accommodations. In fact, most universities have special facilities for people with learning disabilities. He had to scan in his textbooks and then have a voice reader read them to him. He did it because he had to but, like a lot of dyslexics, he doesn't read by choice. Also, I am a skilled researcher. I found stuff he would never have found. Nor would most people. It's my job to know how to do it so why not use the skills for his benefit? Or should one do nothing for someone in one's life?

 

Anyway, in doing all this research, I'm thinking, yet again, that I should go back to school and get the psych degree. I have been fascinated by psychology all my life but thought it wasn't a practical career choice. Even if I don't go the degree route, I am getting involved in advocacy for people with mental disorders. So, in fact, in doing this research for him, I'm finally finding something that I really would like to do for the rest of my life. So you see, rather than a minus, it's a plus. Actually, given my 'druthers, I'd rather win a lottery and do nothing but read, study, and research to the end of my days. I happen to love this stuff. It's completely fascinating. I have to tear myself away from it.

but in sacrificing yourself for him, it doesn't seem that you're able to meet YOUR own needs! Does this seem healthy to you?

Asked and answered.

 

As for your experience with an adult with ADHD, I don't blame you for leaving. Nobody, certainly not most ADDers, believes that ADD should be an 'excuse'. It's an explanation, but it doesn't absolve the ADDer from seeking treatment to deal with his issues. And, for the umpteen-and-one-dozenth time, for all his tiresome traits, my guy is more than willing to get a diagnosis. He knows he's got problems. He hates it, and sometimes, I think, it all overwhelms him. How would you like to have that many problems? And how would you like it if you had no choice but to have to do all that work if you want to be 'acceptable'? You can't just roll along like most everybody else. No, you have to ferret out every one of your couple dozen or more issues and run it into the ground. I totally get how that could be pretty disheartening and, sometimes, you'd just want to ignore it.

 

Thanks for your concern. I'm not codependent. I'm a burned-out caregiver. There's a fascinating job I might get in the new year; something I would love to do. He is willing to get diagnosed and to work on himself. He has a lot of flaws, now, but my research told me that the ADDer and the OCDer who wish to be helped can change quite a bit. Peel the worst of the traits away and he's a pretty good guy. It's just this OCPD that has me worried.

 

But we'll see. He's going to a very interesting place. Could be he gets healed another way entirely! Anyway, there'll be six months where we can each work on our own stuff. I'll keep apprised of the research, because it's got me hooked, but I'll have space to do my own stuff, too. He'll have space to deal with his stuff. I made it - the kids are here. He's always better when they're around because he focuses so much attention on them and then he'll be packing and off. He'll get all stressed about leaving and possibly do some annoying things, but they'll be the last ones for a long while, so I'll manage.

 

I thought I was sliding off the end of the rope but here's a knot to hang on to (thanks, Hokey!). I'll just grab it tight and look forward to a whole new year. A friend told me the other day that she'll be glad to see the end of '02, too. Here's to '03!

[moimeme]

Maybe I'm off the mark here, but I think it's a hole different story when it comes to problems in a marriage, and the degree of commitment that should be there, and problems that take place in a non-marital relationship.

Well, we've been living together for two years and planned to marry until I started seeing how many problems there were. Plans are on hold until I see what happens with respect to diagnosis and treatment. However, we had committed and I'm still committed, as is he - at least to trying to make it work.

and what about the fact that you've mentioned that when his 4 children come for the holidays, you wish you could just go to a hotel

Only 2 of 'em staying for the duration. I was totally worn out, but I'm feeling better. He did a lot of the prep work so I didn't have to do it all.

but really, not once have I read anything about being deeply in love with this guy....nor have i read anything about him being deeply in love with you

He loves me. Me, I don't know what I think. The behaviours are pretty bruising. It would have been useful to know about the disorders earlier. Hokey speaks of it having taken a long time to purge the hurt.

I didn't get the impression that he treated her badly

You might wish to reread her post carefully. She said:

Quote from original post: “he's selfish, lacks empathy, and is argumentative and uncooperative most of the time. Not only that, he thinks I'm nuts because his behaviours are upsetting me badly. He says I have an anger problem!”

 

That pretty much described my relationship for the first 5 years (2 years dating, 3 years married). I used to cry every day because I loved him so much and didn’t want to leave, but I was so miserable.

Adults have the ability to be insightful, to reflect, to soul search, to be cognizant of their behavior and actions. Don't you think?.

Oh, lord no. Some adults do. "Insightful"? You must be kidding! Again, some people are. Certainly not the majority of people. Maybe half. Why do you think there are a zillion advice columnists, shows, books, etc etc etc? A heckuva lot of people haven't a clue. When I was young, I thought all adults had it together. As an adult, I'm almost astonished when I find one person who does. Just about anybody you look at is dealing with some issue or other. Basically, humanity is a bunch of walking wounded. You do know that a lot of alcoholics are just trying to self-medicate their inner pain, right? Read the health stats - they figure up to a quarter of the population has some mental type problem (depression being the biggie, but the others, too). I don't know what planet you live on - it's not the same one as the one I live on!

I don't buy this stuff about being badly wounded as a child?

The three most 'damaged' people I have ever known had terrible childhoods. Not in terms of circumstance, but in terms of lack of parental care. Not a one of those three people even realizes he or she has a problem, much less thinks his or her parents are at fault. Each of those people were eager for parental approval they never got, and still weren't receiving as adults. I watched it in action in every case. It was heartbreaking. Parents can warp kids badly and forever. It isn't an excuse, but sometimes if you don't know the source of a problem, it's harder to fix. I don't honestly know if somebody who was treated that way by parents can get over it, even if they do figure out that that's their problem. And, truly, I don't think all that many people enjoy having problems.

Do I let my childhood be an excuse for treating people (people I"m in a relationship with) like crap? Of course not. And it didn't take me any counselling or psychotherapy or the like to come to this realization.

So is it your contention that you are everyman? That every single person is constituted exactly like you internally so that the experience you have is identical to everyone else, and your reaction is identical to that of everyone else? How is it you extrapolate from the personal to the general?

 

Are you afraid of anything (bugs, etc?) I'm not. If I'm not, why should you be? That is a logical fallacy. You are you. You are not 'we'.

 

We are all different. We have different strengths, resources, intelligence. Some of us shatter at an insult, others weather the sort of lives that you had (horrible).

 

I'm tough. I figure it's a gift. I don't expect people to expect me to jog; I'm dreadful at running. I don't expect them be able to handle the stuff I've handled. Nor do I blame them because they aren't as resilient as I. Nor do I take inordinate pride in my strength. I am grateful for it, and consider it as I would the ability to sing or any other 'ability' - as a quality of mine and not necessarily of everyone's. Just because you have the strength you have, I don't think you ought to judge others who do not as being weak-willed. Some people are just not capable.

 

As for my fellow, he had a terrific childhood in terms of home life. His mom and dad love him to bits and supported him in everything. They had him diagnosed with dyslexia and helped him overcome it. It was only the schoolkids who were mean, and he doesn't blame anything on that.

Seems like everyone and their dog has a therapist these days. It's almost trendy!

It's been trendy for a long while. How can you help but have a therapist? If you try to help yourself, a phalanx of people with PhDs land on you and berate you for trying to be an informed patient!!! Anyway, didn't you suggest I see one?

 

I'm not defensive; it's just a little wierd to me that I have now said several times that a) I don't want to fix anybody b) he actually does want help c) I get that I am burned out and I get how to not be in future and d) I am all for getting a proper formal diagnosis and people still seem to find it necessary to tell me a, I'm codependent, b, why should I stay if he doesn't want help, c, why don't I realize I've done too much, and d, he should be diagnosed by a real doctor over and over! I do get it. I don't get that people get that I do get it!! LOL!

[Just A Girl2]

Okay, so it's more than obvious that the only response you "like" of the dozen or more you were given, is the one from Hokey...because it's a lot in line with your very firm beliefs. Let me ask you this, though.....did you come here hoping to read only what you wanted to hear, or did you actually want some feedback, as diverse as it might be?

 

It seems you have a real chip on your shoulder when it comes to those with degrees, professionals in the psych field, and you are quick and defensive when anyone suggests that you yourself display characteristics of being codependent/addicted.

 

I don't doubt you have caregiver burnout (and yes, I know what that's about, by virtue of my profession)....but people here based the question of whether you might be codpendent/addicted, on the fact that you've freely admitted to "saving" a lot of people, and helping to fix them/their lives.

 

You didn't exactly blow in here and paint a very rosy picture of your boyfriend. Not until this last response of yours, did you even have one truly positive/complimentary thing to say about him......I don't think.

 

You are quick to keep reminding us as to how proficient you are at doing Internet Research, and how you do that for a living. That's great....but being able to read hoards of online articles on specific subjects doesn't instantly make one an adult and/or abnormal psychology major. Slowly, you come across as someone who's sure of yourself, sure of what you're doing, sure of this guy, sure of where things stand...so then I have to ask, why did you post in the first place? It seems that you're very quick and defensively and slightly snidely, dismissing all advice and input here, that doesn't jive with your firm beliefs........with all due respect, you seem a little bit closed minded??

 

Comments like this are kind of out of line, I think, given the amount of thought and time people have put into their responses to you here:

 

It's my job to know how to do it so why not use the skills for his benefit? Or should one do nothing for someone in one's life?

 

See, I find comments like the last sentence, to be catty, condescending and confrontational. Why the need to make myself or anyone here out to be this selfish, ungiving, miserly, knowledge-hoarding jerk?

 

There's a distinct difference, IMO, between trying to help one's partner, and trying to be the hero/martyr, and in the process, making them the sole focus of one's life and letting yourself fall by the wayside (caregiver burnout). For goodness sake, the guy hasn't even had a psych evaluation of any kind yet. What's the delay? But my point is, you're now labelling yourself as having caregive burnout, but it's not even been remotely proven by trained professionals that he in fact has ANY kind of actual disorder/mental illness/etc.

 

You come across almost obsessed with him and his problems....like you have nothing else in life to focus on but him and those problems. That doesn't healthy to me at all. It verges on a "god complex" to me. I sense that you derive a sense of purpose in life....that it's become your sole mission, to not only diagnose this man (and tell the professionals he ends up seeing down the road, what "you" think he has, that's bold).....but to do nothing else in life (including not even holding down a job) but do research and come up with scads of possible diagnoses.

 

If he does in fact have all these many problems and disorders, you've been with him for 2 yrs now......why hasn't he sought any kind of assessment or help yet? What's the hold-up?

 

You strike me as the kind of person who enjoys a good mystery.....who enjoys solving a difficult puzzle. Maybe the basis of all of this isn't so much about wanting to help him, but more about wanting to prove you are a good researcher/are right in your suspicions?

 

You painted a picture, initially, of being a woman who was "burnt out" and not getting anything from this relationship....but what kept you from leaving it was an overwhelming feeling/belief that if you left him, you would be a rotten person for giving up on him...and that his feelings of being unlovable would only be confirmed. Staying with someone who has sh*tloads of problems to avoid guilt, is not a sound reason to stay. It certainly does them no favors, either.

 

It doesn't sound like he's the easiest person to live with......hell, he even accused YOU of having an "anger problem"........what's to stop him from one day just up and leaving you? As it stands now, there's no real commitment there. He could leave any time.....and then you'll be forced to face the fact that you put your own life on hold for however long, all for him...then where will you be left? Unemployed, a gap in your employment history, all that time and energy expended on someone who left....and for what?

 

The whole things sounds very dysfunctional and unbalanced. There doesn't seem to be any balance in your life, based on all you've written. Your sole focus is on him. Does he make you as much of a priority? Do you feel like you're even close to being on the same wavelength as someone you have to constantly guide/babysit/look after? Seems more like a parent-child relationship to me.

 

And if he's got as many problems as you believe he does, I feel very sorry for his children..all 4 of them...I wonder how his actions and behavior and quirks and all that must affect them?

 

Well anyway, good luck in your life.

[moimeme]

When I said the thing about I don't know what planet you live on, it was just that I was astonished at your remark about

Adults have the ability to be insightful, to reflect, to soul search, to be cognizant of their behavior and actions. Don't you think?.

...it's so different from my experience.

It seems you have a real chip on your shoulder when it comes to those with degrees, professionals in the psych field...?.

Not at all. I even said that I was thinking of doing a degree in Psych. I have a couple degrees, myself, so I definitely don't have anything against people with 'em. I do, however, intensely dislike any 'medical professional' who would dissuade a patient (other than a hypochondriac, I suppose) from learning as much as they can about their condition.

Let me ask you this, though.....did you come here hoping to read only what you wanted to hear, or did you actually want some feedback, as diverse as it might be?

My reason for coming to this board was to ask this:

If anybody has a crumb of a positive story to toss me to persuade me that all my expenditure of self hasn't been in vain and that there is some hope, please toss it now. Just pitch it in the general direction of the black hole at the end of this note, where I'm currently residing.

Hokey answered the question I asked. She has the story I was looking for. I know I'm doing something extraordinarily difficult. I just wanted to know if the odds were completely impossible.

'They' say that it is when we begin to believe that our situation is hopeless that despair sets in. I was beginning to despair. I can do this so long as there's a glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel but some days all I see is that 'black hole'. Hokey lit the candle and its light is one I can follow.

 

I'm not trying to have the last word, but if you ask something, or I think you have a misconception about something, I figure I owe it to you to get it straight. Obviously, you can't know every thing about me and my whole life from a few posts on a board.

Why the need to make myself or anyone here out to be this selfish, ungiving, miserly, knowledge-hoarding jerk?

? I didn't do anything of the sort. I was asked why it was I doing the research. It's because I can. And because I enjoy learning.

For goodness sake, the guy hasn't even had a psych evaluation of any kind yet. What's the delay?

They cost between $350 and $700. We haven't had that much free cash floating around lately - particularly since both our vehicles required expensive repairs lately. I was also trying to find a good doc. We're in a new town; it's not that easy to locate a doctor that easily when one doesn't know people to give them referrals. I finally found a good guy - as it turns out, he lives next door to us!!! We discussed all this in November, but he was on his way out of town until January. This was going to happen in January.

I sense that you derive a sense of purpose in life....that it's become your sole mission, to not only diagnose this man

Not at all. It was my sole mission in life to rescue the relationship. In the attempt, I started finding this information, and then I followed all the trails I found. I have other personal business to attend to which also takes up quite a bit of time.

If he does in fact have all these many problems and disorders, you've been with him for 2 yrs now......why hasn't he sought any kind of assessment or help yet? What's the hold-up?

See, if he *knew* he had disorders, he would've known to look for help. If I knew there were such disorders to find, I'd have suggested he look for help. Like all new relationships, they didn't really become evident until almost a year into the relationship. I figured out about ADD in June, just as I was about to toss him out forever. In fact, I had told him to leave and never return and meant it. Then I hit the ADD list of symptoms and it described him to a 'T' (and me, too, to a lesser degree). The OCD was obvious. The APD and OCPD fill in a couple of holes. It is extremely common for people to have multiple disorders.

It doesn't sound like he's the easiest person to live with......hell, he even accused YOU of having an "anger problem"........what's to stop him from one day just up and leaving you?

Not a thing, and if he does, that's his choice.

There doesn't seem to be any balance in your life, based on all you've written. Your sole focus is on him.... Does he make you as much of a priority? then you'll be forced to face the fact that you put your own life on hold for however long, all for him...then where will you be left? Unemployed, a gap in your employment history, all that time and energy expended on someone who left....and for what?

Oh, goodness. My 'sole focus' has been on him for six months of the two years. And still, it hasn't been my 'sole' focus. I do have other things to do. I just didn't figure a complete biography was warranted. JustA, I *GET* that I overdid it for a while. I will not be doing that any more, even were he staying in town. And for what? For direction in my life, as it turns out.

And if he's got as many problems as you believe he does, I feel very sorry for his children..all 4 of them...I wonder how his actions and behavior and quirks and all that must affect them?

He is the best father I have ever known. He cares deeply about his kids and does everything he can to be an excellent parent. Yes, he is quirky, and the older kids are a little put off by that, but the younger ones are too young to notice. I am pointing out to him where his quirks affect the relationship, and he is working on that. He's doing pretty well, I have to add. He has a lot of compulsions. If he could get them under control, much of the bad behaviour would be gone, but it's not easily done. This man is, I repeat, by far the best father I've ever seen. He adores his kids and they're nuts about him.

I merely brought up my own childhood as an example of how it's not always appropriate to justify a person's "problems" by blaming it on their childhood...because there are many people out there (including myself, God, didn't I make this clear enough for you?) who had extremely rotten childhoods......but they don't sit around and blame everything in life, including their hangups and insecurities, on their childhood.

A) Nobody's blaming anything on anybody's childhood. I posited a theory that he developed coping mechanisms in childhood which have overdeveloped into these disorders.

B) I suppose there are some people who try to blame their bad character on poor childhood. I don't think their number is large.

 

I *am* grateful for all the respondents' concerns. I'm a little disconcerted that some people seem to be trying to save me, and are getting angry that I'm not being saved by them . I also will have no truck nor trade with 'medical professionals' who still think that medical knowledge is their exclusive province. That's an old-fashioned 'doctor is God' view that is supposed to be falling by the wayside. I really think that saying it's 'bold' for me to posit some suggestions to a psychologist is a view that should have gone out with button shoes. Fortunately, the neuropsychologist living next to us was not at all offended and was more than pleased to discuss this stuff with me.

[fire fly]

after reading through this all, here are some of my observations.

 

seems like you don't have much use for the medical community and you think you know more than they do, which is why you're spending hours and hours of time trying to investigate his symptoms yourself, when he could have already been in to see someone.

 

you speak of him like he's an incapacitated, bed ridden dependent, who's left you with caregiver burnout. this isn't a man who's on his death bed, who can't get himself to the bathroom on his own or feed himself. i suspect he needs much less help then you think he needs from you. people give up their jobs for loved ones if that loved one is facing a terminal illness, not because they have some personality traits that are quirky.

 

i suspect you derive a sense of purpose in life right now, from immersing yourself totally into his life and his problems. you feel he couldn't cope with you and your top notch research skills.

 

is he taking as much of an active interest in getting things sorted out as you seem to be? do you have anything else going on in your life at the moment, like friendships with others, do you ever get out and socialize with friends or family, do you have any interests or hobbies other than researching his problems? do you ever stop and do things for yourself? when is the last time you did something for yourself?

 

i sense that maybe you enjoy being in relationships with people who have problems because then you can be the one to set them on their way to being fixed. Saviour-complex. seems like your doing all the giving and he's doing all the taking.

[moimeme]

Firefly, I've responded to all your points elsewhere. I don't want to 'save' anybody. I figure my duty as a friend or partner is to stand by and help friends or partners when they want me to. Could be why I have friendships of many years' duration - they know they can count on me when the chips are down. However, it isn't my fulltime occupation, nor do I wish it to be.

 

I don't think I know more than the medical community. I was trying to figure out what was wrong with *us*. Then it looked like we both had a condition. I have said now umpty-zillion times that we will get a diagnosis. You just don't walk into the corner grocery and get one, you know. I was trying to keep my sanity intact while waiting for the money to come in to do the assessment. I am owed a heap of bucks which is tied up in a bureaucratic knot. I expected it months ago. If it would've turned up when it was supposed to, we would've gotten the appointment. It never did. Sorry I'm not so rich I can't just drop seven hundred bucks at the drop of a hat.

 

The nature of his condition is such that he stresses about every little thing; i.e. at least once daily. If I don't talk him down, the flap he's in prevents me from accomplishing anything anyway so I do. He has intrusive thoughts, so has the same worries over and over. Needs the same reassurances over and over. After the several hundredth time, some of them start to sink in and some of the worries abate a bit. There's no way to stop him; he's like a broken faucet. If the stressing starts, there's no way to shut it off - unless I intervene somehow. And, yes, he needs to learn how to deal with his own stress. And, yes, that's a condition of his return. I'm not babysitting any more. Didn't want to in the first place, sure don't want to now.

 

I don't feel he couldn't cope. I feel if I left him to do this for himself, I'd long be in the looney bin before he managed to finish the task. Plus, he's too busy worrying whether he's a good dad and dealing with an exwife from hell. Either I throw him the lifesaver, or I drown. Either I point him in the direction of how to improve the relationship, or I crash and burn.

 

Had he been diagnosed as a child, and the treatment started then, I am positive this would be a very different person. Unfortunately, things like this get missed by the 'medical community' until it's way too late. Maybe, had someone seen a 'symptom list' and suggested he go for the right sort of evaluation, his and my pain (plus that of others along his way) might have been avoided. Maybe, if a family doctor could diagnose a disability from the usual half-hour visit, this wouldn't happen, but our medical system is not set up to catch disorders unless they cause a person or his family enough stress for them to want to find out what's wrong.

 

I have no reason to put my full trust in physicians. My mother died because of one who didn't do his job properly - and I've known far too many people misdiagnosed or with missed diagnosis. I have no idea where you people get the idea that doctors are all-knowing. I also have no idea why anybody thinks any one person knows everything. I don't, and neither does the doc, in most cases. I have always figured that the more brains asked to participate in a problem, the better the solution can be. Even a mere layperson is capable of comprehending enough informaton to be an informed patient.

 

As for me, I do something for myself daily. I boost my endorphins with chocolate, and I make sure to watch or read something funny to boost my immune system and endorphins.

 

I also research. I keep my brain active rather than numbed by the ghastly routine of everyday work (at least, the sorts of jobs I've had, some highly paid.) As I mentioned, I love to research. My way of dealing with stress is to go find solutions to whatever problem is causing stress, so all this research has been for me. To figure out whether I should even bother with this guy. Also to learn about this disorder stuff, which is not really well-known by the public at large.

 

In fact, I have spent huge chunks of time on helping myself, I realize - it's just that I've got stuck on these three methods when I should also be exercising and participating in more outside activities. Interestingly, it was one of those very medical professionals who said that I was definitely suffering burnout and that I was definitely a 'caregiver' when I expressed doubt that I should be at her session. So should I listen to her? She has *the* degree, after all!

 

If I could have any job in the world right this minute, by far my preference would be to work with some sort of team researching the mind and its workings; not as a scientist (icky stuff) but helping design and conduct studies, etc. Or maybe I should go for journalism instead and write about this stuff for public consumption and education rather than going for psych. It'd take less time.

 

I don't want to 'save' people. I'm happy when I can help out, but I don't *need* people to lean on me. I like it. It feels nice to help someone but that's it. I'm curious: if I had gone into a helping profession, would you be accusing me of wanting to save people (in a pejorative sense) or would you *expect* me to want to help people? My career tests have always shown that I should be helping or teaching people, for heaven's sakes! I didn't want to be a shrink, but I realize I should have gone into psychology and research because it's been one of my biggest interests throughout my life. This break and this research has given new life to that desire so maybe now I'll have the good sense to change my career so that I work in a field congruent with one of my greatest interests.

 

Would you rather I flip burgers? Type letters for a living? I've done both but they're not me, and they sure aren't fulfilling. Nor were the much more highly-paid jobs. What ought I be doing if not researching? I said I had a terrific job opportunity coming up in the new year. There is no possible way I would have had it come my way had I not been in the very situation I am in. I would probably be slaving away in yet another soul-destroying job; another hamster in a wheel.

 

So, in the end, whether we stay together or no, this experience has taught me a great deal and, like Hokey, I wouldn't trade it in. It would be very nice if it turns out to be a happy-ever-after, but if not, well, there may well yet be one waiting for me down the line.

[Arabess]

Moimeme,

 

I know that I know you have it within you to overlook a multitude of short comings in order to find the diamond in the rough. Truth is....some diamonds don't want to be polished. It's as though they find a famililarity within their own failures.....and seeing beyond them....isn't a place they even wish to arrive at.

 

All the help and understanding in the world doesn't seem to stop the pattern of self destruction and sabotaging their own happiness in every arena.

 

I don't think you can love someone through it. I think you can only get sucked into it....and become more miserable than they are. Eventually, they begin to resent you because you are no longer willing to validate their excuses for not pulling themselves together.

 

It's almost a no-win situation.

[moimeme]

Thanks, Arabess

 

Sometimes love can heal. Unfortunately, it is not a guaranteed remedy and it doesn't always work. What I finally figured out is that the person you are trying to love needs to be able to accept love in order for it to help. And, sadly, there are a lot of people who feel so unworthy that they aren't even able to allow themselves to be loved.