any way to 'know' if a second chance might come?

[Faith2]

("By virtue of me saying it's over, and not wanting to discuss things with you, I have no obligation to discuss things with you"; "Also, I am no longer your best friend, so you can't rely on me for support"; "I don't want to be in a relationship with you"; "I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me").

 

These statements are absolutely unequivocal. He has said NO to you in every possible way.

 

I've always been the initiator in this relationship. So...what do you think?

 

As painful as it is, you must not initiate contact. Do not even be tempted to let him know that you'd be there to listen if he has a change of mind. That would be just laying out the doormat. Do not do that to yourself.

 

Go total no contact. Really, think about it... if you've always predictably been the initiator, he's probably thinking you'll do it again... and thinking of you with utter dread right now. Is that how you want him to think of you?

 

Instead be unpredictable... do NOT contact him. It might eventually make him curious. Or it might not. But one thing's for sure - if you initiate contact again, you'll just be doing more damage.

[CaliGuy]

But I have a question: do you really think it's always true that if someone really wants you, nothing will stop them from contacting you?

 

Yes and that is ideally the way you want it. After all, why invest your time in someone who does not feel YOUR time is worthy of them? See what I mean? If you're not a priority in their life and you make them a priority in yours you are unqually yoked and the relationship will fail.

 

Unless of course you enjoy being on the back burner. Not me. If I value someone that much and they don't value me then what's the sense of wasting time on them?

 

I feel like my guy really boxed himself in with his e-mail of now almost 8 weeks ago, because you can't just call someone up after writing words like his ("By virtue of me saying it's over, and not wanting to discuss things with you, I have no obligation to discuss things with you"; "Also, I am no longer your best friend, so you can't rely on me for support"; "I don't want to be in a relationship with you"; "I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me").

 

Sounds to me like he made things very clear and you're just not accepting it. Unfortunately you are hanging on to something you THINK is there while all along the truth is staring you in the face.

 

Think of his works like a baseball bat. He could not have smacked you any harder with it. Sorry that's just what I see in those words.

 

What if, once all the anger and hurt die down, he misses me and wants to contact me? Even if he wanted me desperately, why would he--passive in anything concerning emotion and risk-adverse (he works in risk management!)--stick his neck out and risk finding that I don't want him, that I'm angry at him, that I have found someone else? I've always been the initiator in this relationship. So...what do you think?

 

Several things.

 

Since you are always the initiator, he had no reason to work for your love and affection. You gave it to him on a silver platter and he took it for granted. As a part of that process, he lost his connection to you. Most people do when they don't have to work for things. If it's free (easy to get) it's usually of little value. Even people.

 

If his heart was to change, it will be from nothing you do but only time and his own personal reflection. You can sit here until the cows come home trying to scheme a plan to win him back and you will fail. Not because you didn't try, but because HE DID NOT TRY. See, you need two people on the same page to make a relationship work. He's on the last chapter and you're still at the beginning.

 

It's unfortunate but each and every relationship you have should not be mourned over but be GRATEFUL for. Because each one teaches you something new about yourself and about how love should work. When you recover from this, and you will, you'll be wiser, stronger, more confident and full of self-respect. Because going through a bad relationship is one of life's greatest trials and the one's that educate us the most.

 

Nothing else you experience in life will teach you more than a broken heart will. About yourself, about others and about love.

 

Let him go. Let him go for your own sake so that you have time to work on you. He's not meeting your needs and he shouldn't. You should be able to figure out how to meet your own needs and not depend on others to meet them for you. If you can not make yourself happy alone, you will not be able to make someone else happy in a relationship.

 

The sooner you get your life in order the sooner Mr. Right can find you. And you'll come back to LS one day and say "Wow, I didn't think I could ever meet someone better than my ex (for me) and yet it happened."

 

Of that, I promise you.

[Zapbasket]

Think of his works like a baseball bat. He could not have smacked you any harder with it. Sorry that's just what I see in those words.

 

Okay. So this is what is keeping me stuck: I cannot IMAGINE anyone writing such words to anyone, ever. It's not like I cheated on him; we argued a lot and both of us said things we shouldn't have but that's it. This e-mail stunned me to the bone and to hear an objective outsider say "he could not have smacked you any harder" is comforting. Here's his whole e-mail:

 

Green Cove,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling with my decision to end our relationship. I would never want to harm you and it was a very difficult thing to do.

 

I apologize in advance for the sternness of this letter, but I feel I need to get the message across to you as clear as I can.

 

I should not need to have to explain my decision yet again. By virtue of me saying it's over, and not wanting to discuss things with you, I have no obligation to discuss things with you. Moreover, you have acknowledged some of the problems with the relationship. One of the reasons I don't want to discuss things with you is that there will never be enough discussion--just as there was never enough arguing, or phone discussions, etc.

 

Also, I am no longer your best friend, so you can't rely on me for support.

 

But if you need to hear it one more time: I've ended the relationship for many reasons, including:

 

--The way, frequency and grounds over which we fought. Given that I'm not willing to change my style any more than I already have, and that I am unwilling to put up with those fights anymore, I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

--Our inability to reach agreement on many issues (family, living arrangements, finances, etc.). Given that I'm unwilling to compromise any further, I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

--My inability to overcome many of the hurtful things you said about me, my family and my friends.

--I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

 

The fourth reason is enough on its own and you need to respect that. I will not debate the other items with you.

 

I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me.

 

I mean, it's so awful, and I'd have never expected such a thing from him, ever. I could NEVER write someone an e-mail like that. What is your reaction? This is the wall I keep bumping against, I remember these words (I have them memorized) and they just send me reeling because they are so absolutely, resolutely, severing of any kind of connection. Not even "I wish you well." And the things he gives as reasons, we NEVER discussed this stuff, though I kept trying to initiate discussion.

 

How would you deal with something like this? I feel hollowed out inside, because I cannot imagine anything more cruel. Even hurling overt insults would have been less insulting and hurtful than this e-mail.

[Zapbasket]

These statements are absolutely unequivocal. He has said NO to you in every possible way.

 

As painful as it is, you must not initiate contact. Do not even be tempted to let him know that you'd be there to listen if he has a change of mind. That would be just laying out the doormat. Do not do that to yourself.

 

Go total no contact. Really, think about it... if you've always predictably been the initiator, he's probably thinking you'll do it again... and thinking of you with utter dread right now. Is that how you want him to think of you?

 

Instead be unpredictable... do NOT contact him. It might eventually make him curious. Or it might not. But one thing's for sure - if you initiate contact again, you'll just be doing more damage.

 

Thanks for posting. And forgive me: I'm dense in my pain and confusion. Do you think it's possible for someone to write something so definitive but not be 100% behind it; could someone write something like that and still love the person to whom they're writing?

 

Also, why would he be thinking of me with utter dread? Because he thinks I'll try to contact him again?

 

Lastly, why, exactly (and i'm not doubting you but just need to get this into my skull), would I be doing MORE damage if I initiate contact? Last night, for instance, I saw a Danish film ("After the Wedding") in which two lovers estranged for 20 years meet each other under unusual circumstances. The man had been in India all that time, while the woman had left him there to return to Denmark. At their reunion, he said to her, "I always thought you'd come back to India." And she said, "I always thought you'd come back to Denmark." All those years and each was waiting for the other to return. A phone call could have eliminated that confusion! I know it may even sound pathetic but I really feel that people tend towards reconciliation and connection, and that to cut off eats up a lot of psychic energy; that cutting off is really not what anyone wants. Even if he didn't want to be in the relationship, he didn't have to leave it so that ANY contact at ANY time is near-impossible. Anyway, what do you think?

[norajane]

Okay. So this is what is keeping me stuck: I cannot IMAGINE anyone writing such words to anyone, ever.

 

It doesn't matter that you cannot imagine writing such words to anyone. HE wrote them to YOU - and he did recognize he was being harsh, which is why he apologized first. He obviously felt you weren't getting the message so he finally had to say it in a way that you could not possibly misinterpret:

 

I apologize in advance for the sternness of this letter, but I feel I need to get the message across to you as clear as I can.

 

But if you need to hear it one more time: I've ended the relationship for many reasons

 

--I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

 

I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me.

 

And by that last sentence asking you to stop contacting him, he shows that HE KNOWS that you want to talk to him. You don't need to initiate contact in order for him to be aware of that - it's not like the 20 years between India and Denmark - HE KNOWS you would talk if he wanted to. But he does not.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm trying to help you see that you have nothing to lose by staying away from him, and everything to gain by putting this behind you.

[Zapbasket]

And by that last sentence asking you to stop contacting him, he shows that HE KNOWS that you want to talk to him. You don't need to initiate contact in order for him to be aware of that - it's not like the 20 years between India and Denmark - HE KNOWS you would talk if he wanted to. But he does not.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm trying to help you see that you have nothing to lose by staying away from him, and everything to gain by putting this behind you.

 

This is despair talking here, but believe me I'm absorbing what you're saying and I thank you for it: What do I have to gain by putting this behind me? I committed to a relationship for 5 years with who I thought was a wonderful, caring person who loved me. Now, instead of being able to walk away feeling like I was respected in this breakup, and we were able to arrive at closure and a genuine discussion of issues, I feel confused, cut off, and like this person never loved me, and maybe isn't that great of a person after all. Which means that the past 5 years are a lie. Also, with what CaliGuy said, that given I was always the initiator he didn't have to work for the relationship, that makes me feel awful that maybe my guy never respected me. And I feel more betrayed than ever. And to move forward, how can I, when I TRUSTED this person, I, who always pride myself on my choice of friends and people radar, was in love with someone who I felt loved me. I FELT that he loved me, even at the time of the breakup. So I just feel so confused I don't know where to point my feet. And I feel like a fool.

[CaliGuy]

Okay. So this is what is keeping me stuck: I cannot IMAGINE anyone writing such words to anyone, ever.

 

That is you. You are not him. That's what you need to understand. He does not think, feel or act in the same manner as you.

 

It's not like I cheated on him; we argued a lot and both of us said things we shouldn't have but that's it.

 

You don't need something terrible to happen for a relationship to fall apart. Over time people either grow closer to together or further apart. In his case, he grew apart from you.

 

This is what you need to accept. Regardless of the reasons why. You want closure and that doesn't come from him, it comes from you. It starts with you accepting that it's over and then realizing that you have to move on with your life, without him in it.

 

This e-mail stunned me to the bone and to hear an objective outsider say "he could not have smacked you any harder" is comforting. Here's his whole e-mail:

 

Green Cove,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling with my decision to end our relationship. I would never want to harm you and it was a very difficult thing to do.

 

I apologize in advance for the sternness of this letter, but I feel I need to get the message across to you as clear as I can.

 

I should not need to have to explain my decision yet again. By virtue of me saying it's over, and not wanting to discuss things with you, I have no obligation to discuss things with you. Moreover, you have acknowledged some of the problems with the relationship. One of the reasons I don't want to discuss things with you is that there will never be enough discussion--just as there was never enough arguing, or phone discussions, etc.

 

Also, I am no longer your best friend, so you can't rely on me for support.

 

But if you need to hear it one more time: I've ended the relationship for many reasons, including:

 

--The way, frequency and grounds over which we fought. Given that I'm not willing to change my style any more than I already have, and that I am unwilling to put up with those fights anymore, I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

--Our inability to reach agreement on many issues (family, living arrangements, finances, etc.). Given that I'm unwilling to compromise any further, I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

--My inability to overcome many of the hurtful things you said about me, my family and my friends.

--I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

 

The fourth reason is enough on its own and you need to respect that. I will not debate the other items with you.

 

I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me.

 

He's made it VERY clear he wants to move on with his lfie without you. In fact, he could not have made it more clear. You're still stuck on chapter one, he's finished the book. Please accept his words.

 

I mean, it's so awful, and I'd have never expected such a thing from him, ever. I could NEVER write someone an e-mail like that. What is your reaction? This is the wall I keep bumping against, I remember these words (I have them memorized) and they just send me reeling because they are so absolutely, resolutely, severing of any kind of connection. Not even "I wish you well." And the things he gives as reasons, we NEVER discussed this stuff, though I kept trying to initiate discussion.

 

You're trying to look for a reason as to why he would feel that way. He's right. He doesn't have to explain it at all. He's stated clearly that he wants to move on with his life. Why won't you accept that?

 

How would you deal with something like this? I feel hollowed out inside, because I cannot imagine anything more cruel. Even hurling overt insults would have been less insulting and hurtful than this e-mail.

 

How would I deal with it? I would say "Ok, that's fine. If she doesn't want me in her life I am sure there are many other women who would! I am valuable to someone, regardless of whether she wants me or not. Just because she doesn't love me does not mean someone else won't. And what a happy day it will be when I do meet her. The longer I cling on to someone who doesn't want me, the longer it will take me to meet the one that does."

 

You see what I am saying here? You're clinging on to him for dear life, he is pulling away as hard as he can. The more you cling to him, the more you try and force him back to you or try and reason with him, the more he will start to resent you.

 

You can not force someone to love you. Even God does not force you to love him. And if He will not force you to love him, what makes you think He is going to force someone else to love you?

 

The bottom line is, He won't. Love is at it's strongest when it's not forced on each other but comes and goes as it pleases.

 

If you can not accept his words, if you aren't going to listen to the advice you have been given then seek Counseling. You are having a hard time accepting rejection. I know, we all do. But we get rejected every day. It does not mean that you are no longer valuable. It just means in he was not meant for you in God's plan for your life.

 

And trust me, nobody knows what is better for you than God. One day you will thank Him for the pain you are going through now. Because it will make you stronger, more confident, more self-assured and this path will lead you to the RIGHT man in your life.

 

Let him go to live his life so you can get on with yours.

[CaliGuy]

This is despair talking here, but believe me I'm absorbing what you're saying and I thank you for it: What do I have to gain by putting this behind me?

 

Everything. And you have your entire future to lose the more you hang on to him. What have you to gain by obsessing over him? Absolutely nothing because NONE of what he does is under your control. The only thing in this life you control is the here and now.

 

And the more time you spend trying to figure out why and if he will ever contact you, the more of your life you will waste away. Its' sad, really. Out there is someone who will love and cherish you and yet you are wasting your time on someone that does not want to be with you and has made it painfully clear.

 

Everyone gets rejected in their life. None of us are immune. But the ones who find happiness are those who LEARN from rejection and do not let their sense of self-worth be based on what someone else thinks of themself.

 

"To thy ownself be true."

 

I committed to a relationship for 5 years with who I thought was a wonderful, caring person who loved me. Now, instead of being able to walk away feeling like I was respected in this breakup, and we were able to arrive at closure and a genuine discussion of issues, I feel confused, cut off, and like this person never loved me, and maybe isn't that great of a person after all. Which means that the past 5 years are a lie.

 

Seems to me that you banked your happiness on this guy instead of yourself. As I said before, if you can not make yourself happy alone you will not be able to make yourself happy with someone else. You feel like the last five years were a waste but they were not. You had good times and bad times. It's only a waste if you LEARN NOTHING FROM IT.

 

Learn from this relationship failure to make yourself a better, stronger, more confident person or yes, it was indeed a waste.

 

Also, with what CaliGuy said, that given I was always the initiator he didn't have to work for the relationship, that makes me feel awful that maybe my guy never respected me.

 

No, he did not. But that doesn't matter. You don't need his respect. All you need is YOURS.

 

And I feel more betrayed than ever.

 

You allowed this to happen. You could probably see that he was taking you for granted yet instead of pulling back and letting him come to you, you pushed even harder. The book "Love Must Be Tough" explains this in great detail. You trapped him in a cage, metaphorically speaking and he wanted out. The more you tried to bring him closer to you, in essense, the more you pushed him away.

 

And to move forward, how can I, when I TRUSTED this person, I, who always pride myself on my choice of friends and people radar, was in love with someone who I felt loved me. I FELT that he loved me, even at the time of the breakup. So I just feel so confused I don't know where to point my feet. And I feel like a fool.

 

We all do at some time or another. Chalk it up to a life lesson. You have learned a great deal from this relationship. More than you realize right now. But please understand. Nobody is going to pick you up, dust you off and make you feel better. Only you can do that.

 

Do go see a Counselor because I believe you benefit from the insight they can give you. I have been to Counselors before and they have made me see myself in a light that greatly benefitted me.

 

My question to you is how long do you want to feel like crap? Because the longer you delay working on yourself, the longer it will take to heal. Life has much to offer you. God has great plans for you.

 

But unless you are willing to look to today and the future as an opporunity, you will never find it. Life is truly what you make of it. You can choose to wallow in the quagmire of what is the past or you can fly on the wings of Eagles by deciding that you will not let this man control your feelings.

 

Once you have control of those feelings and put things into perspective, life will start to look brighter.

 

It's all up to you.

[Faith2]

Do you think it's possible for someone to write something so definitive but not be 100% behind it; could someone write something like that and still love the person to whom they're writing?

 

I can't answer for his feelings. But his actions and his words are unequivocal. He deliberately used such harsh wording in order to make it absolutely 100% clear that the relationship is completely over.

 

Also, why would he be thinking of me with utter dread? Because he thinks I'll try to contact him again?

 

Yes.

 

Lastly, why, exactly (and i'm not doubting you but just need to get this into my skull), would I be doing MORE damage if I initiate contact?

 

The damage would be to yourself. I've read your other posts, and I feel the terrible anguish and despair that are tormenting you now. Many of us on LS have been or are in that same place. You are receiving good advice on your threads.

 

You must protect yourself from further damage.

 

This breakup is still fairly fresh, and the pain is still raw. There's been no 20 years of longing between you like in that movie you saw. Nevermind the movie... it is only fantasy (as alluring as its idea seems).

 

Your reality is right there in that message he wrote to you. Instead of rereading it and asking yourself Why? Why?... you must take the words at face value...

 

"I don't want to be in a relationship with you.

The fourth reason is enough on its own and you need to respect that. I will not debate the other items with you.

I'm sorry that I need to say this, but I request that you stop contacting me."

 

Heartbreaking, I know. But he has laid it all out clearly.

 

Now... you must give yourself and your heart over to the safety and protection of No Contact. Think of NC as a benevolent protective barrier, like a cocoon. Every morning when you wake up, you can breathe a sigh of relief because you're in that NC cocoon and you don't have to contact him, you don't have to figure out what to say, you don't have to cope with any more hurtful messages from him. Instead you are in a safety zone where the rawness can heal.

 

In time, NC will allow you to sort out your feelings and gain clarity and control of your thoughts.

 

As for the crying... this is actually healthy for you. Tears wash away toxins from your body that have built up from the pain you're feeling. (Google for tears and toxins, and you'll find some interesting articles.) So when your tears come, think of it as having a good cry.

 

And finally, do keep going to therapy. If you think you're getting nowhere, if you're talking around in circles, tell your therapist exactly that. She/he will either direct you to a new approach, or refer you to a new therapist who's a better match for you.

[polywog]

Hi GreenCove,

My heart aches for you because I'm going through all those same feelings. I know you've read my threads so you know.

 

Reading through this thread was a real gift for me today. I related so deeply to your feelings and questions, and the replies you got were just what I needed to hear. I am having a nearly inpossible time letting go, too... can't believe he didn't/doesn't love me, deep down just want him to change his mind (ashamed to admt it, but...well). Have been spinning my wheels looking at every little clue that he's deluding himself, not realizing I was doing that until I read this great (but painful) thread.

 

Anyhow, you great LSers who replied, know you helped another one get back on the path to recovery...in a big way, and I thank you!

 

Cheers GreenCove, that we keep getting stronger and wiser and open ourselves up to real love!

[ringside]

ALso, in my experience, people always resurface and with them, whatever you may have tried to shut out in shutting them out of your life. I personally try to keep as open as possible, and work on myself from inside, since banning people as a way of dealing with things really doesn't help you deal, at least not for me, at least not in my experience. I can't imagine that this mode really could work for anyone.

 

I know what you mean; I feel the same way too. But it isn't about how you deal with things, but how he's chosen to deal with it. You may not agree but it's his choice - and nothing you can do will change that. Since it's inalterable, the best thing you can do for yourself - your happiness, your future, your emotional well-being - is to accept it. No matter how painful it is, you have to accept it. It's the only way to move forward and not be stuck in the past.

 

I don't take relationships lightly, I don't see people as expendable, and I don't believe that the grass is always greener with someone else. I gave my heart to this person because he seemed to have the same sentiments, and the loyalty and integrity to work withi me to keep our relationship alive. This breakup has erased my whole sense of things; I feel so disoriented; I guess I cling to hope as a way of restoring the way I felt things to be. I guess I am just very naive?

 

You're grieving; it's understandable. I'd say you're in denial. And just because this relationship didn't work out the way you thought it would, doesn't mean that all that you believed in are automatically wiped out.

 

We can never forget each other. And so I think that people in that situation will find their way to contact at some point.

 

I completely agree with this assessment. But:

 

My instincts regarding this person in particular are that he is going to contact me, but it might not be for a very long time ...

 

The bolded part says it all: It might not be for a very long time. You don't know how long it's going to be. It could be a few weeks, a few months, a few years. Are you going to sit around letting your life stagnate over something so uncertain?

 

...unless this breakup caused him to look closely at himself and what he wants and he quickly comes to feel more definite about who he is, where he's going, and he'll contact me either to get back together or to put the proper closure on things.

 

What if he doesn't do any of those things? You're speculating that he MIGHT look closely at himself and make a few realisations and contact you; but what if he doesn't? Once again, way too uncertain.

 

I always want to be surprised by people...but in this case my instincts also say that he's probably trying to forget about things, and not think about things, and just throw himself into solidifying his new life--his first real independence from his family--with minimal introspection. That always was my feeling about him, though--that he didn't want to have to think about things; he didn't want things to be hard--but then he'd always surprise me. So I guess I really don't know...and that's a the principal cause of the pain I'm feeling.

 

Maybe he'd surprise you, and for your sake, I hope he does. BUT, you can't survive on a diet of hope. Excuse the cliche but I've learnt that it's true and that you really, really need something more substantial and certain in order to live your life the way you deserve to live it.

 

You said it yourself: You really don't know. And nobody here can give you an answer. I wish I knew if my ex and I would ever end up together again (to the extent that I've wanted to go palm-reading a few times. Or fortune-telling, whatever, and usually when I'm sane and rational I don't believe in things like that) but the fact is that I don't, and neither does he. No matter how badly we want answers to questions like that, the fact is, we won't get them. Until the day comes when he contacts you, IF that day comes at all, you have to stop wishing and expecting and hoping that he would. You have to stop speculating over what he'd do. I think, too, that the fact that your instincts are telling you two different things says a lot: That for once, you really, really don't know. Unless you're absolutely sure (even then there's no way to be absolutely sure in life), there's really no point in speculating and waiting anymore. You're cheating yourself out of more meaningful and lasting relationships that will come your way and that's terribly unfair to you. You have to let him go.

 

I agree with everyone else on this thread who's said that the email he sent is very, very clear on his not wanting any contact with you at all. This sucks to the max, and I wouldn't be any better off than you if I were in your shoes; but it is what it is. For your own sake, you have to accept it.

 

How would you deal with something like this? I feel hollowed out inside, because I cannot imagine anything more cruel. Even hurling overt insults would have been less insulting and hurtful than this e-mail.

 

I would probably react the same way you're reacting to it. I'd probably also hate him, or if I feel charitable, thank him for making things so clear so that I can move on with my life instead of waiting around for a possibility that may never come to fruition. The email is harsh and it's cruel, and I can only imagine the heartbreak you must be feeling. Still, it's the way he chose to word it; it's the way he thought best conveyed his intention. He's made himself very clear to you and the only thing you can do is to accept it.

 

NC really does help you heal. I find that I cope better with the breakup if I don't see my ex around campus at all. Of course, I do stupid things like attend a boring 9 AM lecture no one goes for just to see him and I've called him a couple of times to talk but I find that such contact derails any progress I've made towards moving on. Every single time I talk to him, I feel like **** afterwards. And it's got to a point where I think, What's the point of doing this to myself? I love him, but I love myself more. And I'm sure that's true for you too. If you don't realise it now, you WILL realise it soon.

[bridget_jones]

And if you notice you are feeling sorry for yourself, all you have to do is look around the forums. There are many here who have it much, much worse than we do.

 

I just went to a funeral for a friend of mine. Her husband comitted suicide after being arrested. When I read the arrest report, I understood why he did so. Now she is left with no husband and will be tormented for the rest of her life feeling filthy over what HE did. She's got it bad.

.

This type of advice, telling people who are dealing with a breakup that others have it worse, really doesn't help. No disrespect or offense here. I know you're saying 'put it all into perspective' but it's not the same situation, and everyone has their OWN life challenges and their own stories, and this is what is hurting HER. My counselor actually told me this when he told me that he understood what pain was when his fiancee was killed in a plane crash, and how he went through a difficult time, but in the end things life worked itself out, he met someone new a few years later and has a beautiful daughter now. It's not that he's glad that his fiancee died, but things worked out. I responded "wow, this really helps me put things into perspective of how little my problem really is." He told me what I wrote, he didn't tell me to put it into "perspective" or compare the smallness of my problem to his, but to let me know that life manages to work itself outand you will get through this Being in a relationship for 5 years and then having it suddenly end IS a real loss emotionally and you can't really compare it to your friend's, she's not necessarily suffering emotionally anymore than Green Cove. They're both suffering loss.

Saying something like that is about as helpful as when parents say "think of all the starving children in Africa" when their child doesn't want to eat their peas.

[Zapbasket]

Everyone's comments are really a tremendous help. Even to hear people's reactions to his e-mail, the unanimous opinion that he is about as clear and severing as clear and severing can be, helps me towards accepting what every fibre of my being is up in arms against accepting. What's so hurtful is that in this e-mail he was more clear than he was in any other communication in the relationship--that, or this time I'm FORCED to hear him as he is preventing any opportunity for further discussion of the issues.

 

I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on what I wrote in response to his e-mail. In retrospect I wish I hadn't responded at all, and just let his words be the last, and let him wonder how I took the news and what I felt about it and him. But here's what I said, and it matters because not only are these the last words I will perhaps ever get to say to him--certainly the last intimate words--these are the last words of our relationship. These are the last words on the last page of the book.

 

Thank you for responding to me. Of course this hits very hard. Please know that I never wanted to harm you, either. I loved you very much, wanted to spend my life with you, and yes, wanted to have a family with you. I spent two years reshaping my dreams so that I could ultimately marry you and raise a family with you. I don't know that you ever understood that.

 

I am sorry, so very sorry, I hurt you. I apologized to you in a long letter over Christmas. But you have only blamed me for the failure of the relationship, without acknowledging your role in it. Your telling me of your mother and friends questioning my character and choices, for example, was profoundly hurtful, and while you did finally acknowledge and apologize for the incident with your mum, you never apologized for pitting me against your friends. I had nothing unkind to say about your friends until you told me how they all were questioning me. You yourself said very hurtful things about me, for which you never apologized, even when I told you point-blank how hurtful your comments were.

 

You kept pushing me on the family issue, but never raised the issue of marriage with me. I had no clear idea when or even if you were going to propose, and it scared me, which is one reason I kept hedging about moving in with you.

 

I told you what I could conttribute towards rent but you never seemed satisfied. I began to think you didn't want me to move in at all. This fall, you didn't tell me how frustrated you were becoming, and then just quit on me with no warning. I felt like I was flailing around just trying to guess what you ultimately wanted, and becoming more and more hurt and scared while you stood by and judged me.

 

You say in your e-mail that there was "never enough phone discussions"--did you ever consider that it was because I missed you? Hanging up with you every night broke my heart. I never wanted us to be long-distance.

 

You say there was "never enough arguing"--did you ever consider that especially this fall I was desperately trying to get you to tell me your intentions and becoming more afraid and defensive when you did not?

 

I believed and still believe that all this was stuff we could have worked out. I'm sorry, more than you'll ever know, that you don't share that belief. I think that the prolonged long distance, coupled with the transitions both of us made in such a short time, fogged our decision-making abilities and muddled our communication. I think beneath it all, the love that kept us together for all these years still was there. At least on my part it was.

 

I miss you, and will miss you, and will always love you deep down even as I move on with my life. I wish you the best and perhaps one day we can be friends. You are an outstanding man and I only feel lucky for having you in my life. I wish things could have worked out differently; I loved your family, your life in ______, the life you were envisioning for the two of us, and most of all, I deeply, deeply loved you. I've watched everything I've worked so hard for these past years fall apart around me. I wish you could have held on so that we could have worked this out.

 

Please tell your Nanny, your Granny and Papa, your parents, [your siblings] and [your family's dog] that I loved them, was terribly fond of them, and will be available to help them anytime, with anything, in the future should I be in a position to do so. I hope that ultimately this ending doesn't have to mean forever in all aspects, even if we're not going to have contact anymore, for a long time.

 

I wish you everything wonderful, always.

 

Green Cove

 

Did I make myself a doormat in this e-mail? Was it not respecting of his request for no contact? (I sent it within the hour after receiving his e-mail.) Is there any way this could have pissed him off more?

[CaliGuy]

This type of advice, telling people who are dealing with a breakup that others have it worse, really doesn't help. No disrespect or offense here. I know you're saying 'put it all into perspective' but it's not the same situation, and everyone has their OWN life challenges and their own stories, and this is what is hurting HER. My counselor actually told me this when he told me that he understood what pain was when his fiancee was killed in a plane crash, and how he went through a difficult time, but in the end things life worked itself out, he met someone new a few years later and has a beautiful daughter now. It's not that he's glad that his fiancee died, but things worked out. I responded "wow, this really helps me put things into perspective of how little my problem really is." He told me what I wrote, he didn't tell me to put it into "perspective" or compare the smallness of my problem to his, but to let me know that life manages to work itself outand you will get through this Being in a relationship for 5 years and then having it suddenly end IS a real loss emotionally and you can't really compare it to your friend's, she's not necessarily suffering emotionally anymore than Green Cove. They're both suffering loss.

Saying something like that is about as helpful as when parents say "think of all the starving children in Africa" when their child doesn't want to eat their peas.

 

It may not help everyone of that I agree. It did help me put things in perspective though. So for some, it may help and for others it may not. I guess it just depends on the individual.

[bridget_jones]

Your friend doesn't have to live the rest of her life dealing with what her husband did. He did that, not her.

 

I was going by what my counselor said and it makes sense.

 

When I've gone through tough times, people tend to say "It could be worse." Well, not necessarily because you don't know my pain and I'm talking about what I'm going through, so it isn't helpful, and it sort of invalidates what I'm feeling. I'm glad my counselor told me that. A breakup is like a death. And sometimes couples who weren't married were more emotionally attached than those who aren't, just because she has kids doesn't make her situation worse necessarily.

[oppath]

Agreed. Our emotions and life experiences are individual and it is not always helpful to compare. Now, it IS helpful to look at the positives in your life, but individual feelings can run deep.

 

Greencove, you didn't make yourself a doormat. It sounds like you said things you've been wanting to say for a while, especially if he acted like you were to blame for the end of the relationship. Nothing is wrong with getting those things off of your chest AS LONG AS YOU DON'T LONG for a reaction. Don't analyze your letter. It was fine. You said some things you needed to say. Now let it go. Don't contact him again and don't desire a response.

 

His initial email was not all that cold or cruel. It was clear, but is was not aggressive. It was assertive. He likely wants no contact so you BOTH can heal and come to terms with the separation. It does not mean forever, but it does mean for an undisclosed and indeterminate amount of time.

[bridget_jones]

I thought it was a very harsh email. I wouldn't respond. I also thought you were too apologetic but we tend to blame ourselves and be hard on ourselves when the other party ends the relationship. I don't think you had anything to apologize for. If he really loved you that much, he wouldn't have wanted you to pay rent anyway if you moved in. Especially he was already paying rent for himself, why should you pay rent, you're doing him a favor by moving in.

Plus...it's condescending. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a man who would write a rude letter like that.

[Ssheena]

What's done is done. His email is very very clear.

 

I understand why you emailed him back but I wouldn't have recommended it. It's like he said, discussion, discussion, discussion. Just let it be.

 

He requested you not contact him again and what did you do? Contact him again.

 

I'm truly sorry you are in this place. You are however, lucky in respect to that many of us don't get that kind of - it's over, forget it, you don't have a chance, leave me ALONE already, closure. He not only closed the door, he locked it.

 

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on down the road but please be easy on yourself. It hurts.

[Zapbasket]

What's done is done. His email is very very clear.

 

I understand why you emailed him back but I wouldn't have recommended it. It's like he said, discussion, discussion, discussion. Just let it be.

 

He requested you not contact him again and what did you do? Contact him again.

 

I'm truly sorry you are in this place. You are however, lucky in respect to that many of us don't get that kind of - it's over, forget it, you don't have a chance, leave me ALONE already, closure. He not only closed the door, he locked it.

 

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on down the road but please be easy on yourself. It hurts.

 

I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure I'm lucky in how he laid it out. This e-mail came on 2/13 when he broke up with me on 12/5 in a phone call, during which he tried to bait me to anger and then wanted to have a "nice conversation" and then told me he that I couldn't come with him to his family's at Christmas because tickets were too expensive and then wanted nice chit-chat while I got increasingly upset that we weren't looking for tickets online together, or making plans to have some sort of Christmas together at the apartment since we weren't going to be together during the holidays. The conversation heated up and he told me it's over, he's sorry, and he hung up on me and turned off his phone--something he did all the time during our LDR. He then called my mother the next day during work hours, crying and saying he's so sorry, and telling her he couldn't deal with me, that I'm a wonderful person but I couldn't compromise and don't want children (I NEVER said that). I called him on 12/9 and he said he "wants to be with me forever, but he can't" because he's a "non-arguing person, whereas I'm an arguing person" (bs; he always picked arguments with me), and then he refused to see me. I, desperate, came into the city and tried to reach him but he wouldn't pick up; however I know he listened to all my voicemails. In my last voicemail I said I thought it was awful that he would not break up with me face to face when we have been together for 5 years, and so he texted me saying we could talk at 4pm the next day by phone. I wasn't having that and so the next morning I came into the city, called to confirm he was at home, and then showed up at his apartment, right outside the door, and called to tell him I was there. He hyperventilated for a few minutes and then said he'd let me in if I promised I'd leave when he said I had to leave. I acquiesced, and then he spent the rest of the time blaming me for everything, and said that the way he felt he didn't want to continue the relationship but he wanted space and would contact me "in the New Year." I defensively said don't contact me unless he wanted to get back together, and then my holidays were a horrendous time, during which I contacted him to wish him a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and he never picked up. Finally he returned on 1/1, I e-mailed him on 1/2 asking if we could meet, and he said we could "for closure." We met at his apartment on 1/4, and he seemed angry, hurt, miserable, and was completely non-communicative and sent very mixed messages in his body language even while he told me it was over. So I didn't really believe he could mean it, and called him a few times, and he never answered or called back. And then on 1/22 I called him at work and he was quite nasty, saying he "couldn't walk me through this" which was not what I was asking at all. I said to him, "We should put better closure on this, and not leave on such a nasty note. This is not the way to end a 5-year relationship." He told me not to contact him again and hung up on me quite nastily. Our 5-year anniversary was 1/26 and I e-mailed him a picture of us on our first anniversary, and begged him at least to consider coming out with me to see how it feels. No response. Then his birthday came up on 2/11, and I couldn't handle it and I called the day before and after, saying we were each other's best friend and I can't understand how he could cut someone he loved off like this. ANd then this e-mail.

 

I just feel he was very disrespectful and cowardly in how he broke up with me. And having written this novel, I see CaliGuy's point about not festering in the past, and I am trying, really, to move on, but I can't believe the hate with which he addressed me from December on, and how he gave no warning that breakup was imminent, and treated me like some putrid loaf of **** that he needed to get rid of as quickly as possible. This from the person closest to me, to whom I had shared more than anyone in my whole life--how, oh how, can I get over something like this? Such extraordinary disrespect. I investigated moving out of the country by summer's end, but I just started a new job after a long spate of being in school, and I can't just up and leave, and besides, I don't have the money right now. So I'm stuck having to move to the same city he's in--a very expensive city--knowing he's making 95K and maybe more by now while I'm making 28K.... God, it hurts. And to lock the door, as you say; why didn't he tell me he was feeling so strongly about things; you don't just arrive at a point one day, in an instant, where you don't want a thing to do with someone. Was he trying to be caring in that e-mail?

 

What also is confusing is that this e-mail is like the capping off of similar behavior throughout our relationship, i.e., the hanging up, the shutting down whenever we had to discuss something difficult, so that I was always placed in the position of Nag, the strange combination of irritation, fascination, and admiration of my passionate nature (for example, one time early in our relationship we were walking down a tree-lined street and I exclaimed how I love trees, especially when they're bare, just these clean, jagged lines reaching toward the sky), and he stopped in his tracks and said with that combination of frustration, irritation, admiration, and fascination, "You love everything!" And I was like, well, is that a bad thing? Also early in our relationship, he told me his soul had died and he could be very downerly about how he thought through problems and I was always capering around him, trying to cheer him up. It wasn't ALWAYS like that, but it was a dynamic, on that I thought would soften as our relationship progressed. Instead, I feel it won in the end. We had an ongoing squabble that aptly fits the title of "Communication versus Stonewalling," and even though he acknowledged at one point that my insistence on communication was a relationship saver, he continually was irritated by it and would hang up, or shut down and stop talking, or, when we were in the same city, by walking away from me in public and then blaming me for creating a "scene" when I would run after him, which would make me feel soooo humiliated. And I feel that in that squabble, he finially committed the Ultimate Act of Stonewalling; i.e., he "won." And the thing is, I wasn't trying to make it a battle at all; I just wanted us to discuss the important things, like work out finances before he moved out here, which he avoided doing...or talk about how and whether we're scared about being together in addition to being excited about it--a request to which he replied, "I am thinking about it a lot." But did I hear what he was thinking? No.

 

And now I'm wondering whether I asked for too much, whether I should learn not to ask for communication. I realize in the end I gave him no space to come around to communicating on his own, but that was after several years of giving him that space, and then he'd never return to address the subject, thus thrusting me into that Nag position. Were these grounds upon which to break up sooner? I just trusted we'd work out that dynamic as we both matured and as we were no longer in a LDR. I am singularly insulted and hurt (and feel ashamed and guilty), that here he is in his final communication saying he doesn't want to talk to me because there will "never be enough discussion." I feel ashamed for ever having insisted on it, because now I fear he'll find someone who doesn't care about communicating and I'll look like the Nag forever when in my sense of myself I am in NO WAY a nag.

[bridget_jones]

I wrote before I have never had a guy I was seeing hang up on me and turn off the phone. He seems like a very rude person who made you unhappy and walking on eggshells.

I think you can meet someone who will treat you much better, with love and respect. I know he moved across the country to be with you, but that is the only positive thing you have said that he contributed to the relationship. That still doesn't make up for the fact that he treated you like crap the rest of the time. I would rather be single than be treated like he treated you.

There are WAY better guys out there than him. I would look forward to meeting someone better and free from all the pain he caused you.

[Zapbasket]

I wrote before I have never had a guy I was seeing hang up on me and turn off the phone. He seems like a very rude person who made you unhappy and walking on eggshells.

I think you can meet someone who will treat you much better, with love and respect. I know he moved across the country to be with you, but that is the only positive thing you have said that he contributed to the relationship. That still doesn't make up for the fact that he treated you like crap the rest of the time. I would rather be single than be treated like he treated you.

There are WAY better guys out there than him. I would look forward to meeting someone better and free from all the pain he caused you.

 

Bridget_jones, I know, and I have been thinking about what you've said in this and other posts. That's what is so hard: I want to turn him into a jerk as I think it would help me detach and move on, but I can see how I contributed to the problems. Maybe, in relationships, when someone can't do what you're asking them to do (e.g. in my case, communicate his feelings more directly and help at coming to solutions that work for both of us), rather than get angry and frustrated all the time, it is better to pull back and sort out what you need to do to work with what you do have. He does sound a bit like an ass in what I wrote above, but that was his "Hyde side" and he definitely was a Jekyll, as well. Maybe I needed to sit down and ask myself, "Since there ARE so many things I love about him, and granted the communication issues are heightened in a LDR, can I accept that this mode just isn't as natural or comfortable for him as it is for me? Can I back off a bit?" And then, if I couldn't, I could say to him, "I feel very strongly that I need you to be the one to address issues directly more often. I need you to tell me what you need and agree to work with me towards solutions so that we can continue to remain happy in the relationship." And if he couldn't do that to my satisfaction, then I needed to decide whether it was productive for me to remain, or to leave. As it was, as our constant arguing this fall showed, we both harbored resentments from the LDR period that ultimately destroyed our trust in each other and our ability to weather all the changes the fall brought in a way that enabled us to draw closer, rather than alienated from each other, each feeling the other was not meeting their needs.

 

Do relationships ultimately come down to ultimatums? If, instead of just ending things, he had given me an ultimatum: "I need you to change _____ and _____ and I need to warn you that I really am at the end of my rope. I want things to work, but this must change or I am gone." I would have cried and freaked out, but I would have been sooooo grateful for his honesty as instead I felt his resentment and was terrified because I didn't know its source or what I could effectively do to help quell it.

 

Sometimes I wish he'd cheated on me, because then it would be absolutely clear: he is not the one for me. The problem is, the ball of pain that keeps me on these boards talking my heart out (sorry, all, for the verbose posts!), that I feel we WERE right for each other, and things got spoiled over time because we both failed to take the appropriate steps that would have kept the relationship flourishing. And then, Bridget, sometimes I question even that these days, and worry that perhaps I am blind and this person was NOT right for me. But my gut says we were right...and then his breakup e-mail says I wasn't right for him. But then was it that, or that he was just so angry and frustrated at that point that he could see no value ini hanging on? I feel that finding the answers to these questions will help keep me from making the same mistake. But then...I wonder if I'd be better served by doing my utmost to forget about all of it, and not try to understand any part of it, and try to pretend it never happened and focus on what I can do each day to enrich my present existence. But then...do these activities have to be mutually exclusive?

 

No answers. None at all. This is the first time in my life when I've really felt I can't find ANY answers. Sucks.

[Faith2]

Speaking from my own experience, having gone from a 2-year LDR to living together (he moved to the US from Germany - yes, a very big transition)....

 

We naively believed that the communication problems we had while LD would evaporate when we were finally ND... or No Distance, as we called it.

 

Hah.

 

Not only did that change bring the expected transition issues, but it also brought a bold new dimension to our relationship and multiple unforeseen complications.

 

But the details of my story are irrelevant. I want to focus on you.

 

IMO, this is what I see in your post...

 

You two also believed that the move from LD to being together would bring you together on deeper levels. Instead, the differences between you became acute, most noticeably your incompatibilty of energy levels.

 

Green Cove, your energy is so intense and passionate, to the degree that it was sapping the energy out of him.

 

His hanging up on you... on the surface it appears rude, yes. But I think he did that out of self-preservation. He drew boundary lines, you persisently overstepped them.

 

Even in his last email he drew the blackest clearest boundary line of all, and yet you immediately overstepped it and wrote him back.

 

It's understandable that now you regret sending that email reply. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing ONLY if we learn from it. You are still aching to overstep. You haven't learned yet.

 

Differing levels of energy can make or break a relationship. Sometimes the differences are complementary, sometimes abrasive. Certainly, compatibility is put to the test when you make the transition from LD to real life.

 

In the case of you and your ex, your energies in this relationship proved to be incompatible to the extreme. The more you pushed way forward, the more he pulled way back. In a strange way, I think he did that in order to create some kind of balance, to offset your high energy by becoming more withdrawn. But the balance tipped over too far.

 

Ultimately you ended up doing all the dancing for two, because he had left the dance floor.

 

When that fundamental compatibility goes out the window, out also goes any hope for communicaton.

 

To me, his final email conveys the message that he is tapped out. There is nothing more, and he has accepted that.

 

Now you must accept it, too.

 

He has given you closure.

 

Repeat it as a mantra until finally every fiber of your being resonates with that understanding and acceptance.

[bridget_jones]

Sorry, Faith, you're giving him too much credit. Hanging up on your girlfriend is unacceptable. Let's stop making excuses for jerky men and passing it off as "incompatibility." He's a jerk the way he treated her and that email....shows how much of an arrogant jerk he is, also. He knew that what he wrote was really harsh and downright mean and rude. Jerk! You are too good for him, Greencove.

[Faith2]

BJ, I agree with you that hanging up is jerky. But did you read all the way through GreenCove's last two posts?

 

Call me a jerk too. I've hung up on my guy when he escalated into intense arguing.... he could get easily carried away... LDRs put a terrible strain on one's emotions. Yet I would never hang up without first giving him fair warning: "Stop and cool off now, or else I need to hang up and take a time-out." If he kept hammering at me, I'd say; "I'm hanging up now" and place the receiver back in the hook.

 

It was a struggle to keep him from overstepping my boundaries, worst of all when he would phone me at work. Did you read the part about GreenCove phoning her ex at work? That's symptomatic of chronic boundary violation.

 

I'm not trying to excuse her ex's behavior. I'm trying to get her to recognize her own reactive behavior both then and right now, and the damage she's doing to herself by continually flailing against the wall of this breakup.

[Zapbasket]

Okay, Faith, I was with you on what you said in your longer post above, but I'm not sure I agree that I am a "chronic boundary violator." I called him at work after trying him on his cell and noting that he refused to pick up. I was still very much in shock and just couldn't believe he ended it like he did and didn't want to speak to me. And during the relationship, I first asked, then begged, and finally demanded that he communicate his needs to me as well as suggest a solution that works for us both rather than leaving me always to do the dirty work. Once he explained to me that he likes to think things over first before offering an opinion whereas I think through discussion with people. And I tried to respect that; I'd say, "Okay, we don't have to keep talking about it for now" and he's say, "Thanks; I'll bring it up tomorrow," and I'd say, "Okay" but then he'd never bring it up, even after several days. And then when I'd say, "Remember that issue from a few days ago?" He'd get defensive. ANd that frustrated me so much that yes, I became more pushy than I ever would otherwise. (And I do feel very badly about that, but I feel in part I was driven to it; I don't yet see what an alternative way to deal with the dynamic woudl have been--What could I have done differently?)

 

the rest of your post, about energy levels, I'm mulling over and will respond in a bit. Some of that really rang true. And I'm interested in hearing about your situation with the German guy; are you still together?