Remorseful cheaters: do not "come clean" with your spouse.

[MySugaree]

Rip, your approach to this issue is pragmatic, ad hoc. Under the situational pragmatic approach maintenance of the relationship is the highest goal.Whether that involves the WS' total confession, partial confession or no confession depends on a host of factors:the BS's anticipated reaction; the impact on family stability; children; etc. The factors are many and are given various weight depending upon the circumstances. Anticipated consequences matter to the situational pragmatist who asks:Must I likely sacrifice my marriage on the Altar of Truth?

 

Opposed to the pragmatists, are the Truth Absolutists. These folks believe that regardless of the consequences the WS must admit everything to the BS. The Truth trumps the relationship. There is no middle ground.

 

For these Moral Extremists one size truly fits all--regardless of individual differences. Consequences of confession are irrelevant. This view makes for great posts, but bad life choices. (Ironically, both the WS and Truth Absolutists share one thing in common: both engage in, or advocate, a course of action that might nuke the marriage. They both risk turning a marriage/family into Ground Zero.The weapons are different: infidelity vs. a moral totalitarianism).

 

I stand with the situational pragmatists so long as life remains much, much more complicated than the righteous anger expressed on a Message Board.

[amerikajin]

Well, I've certainly learnt a lot, in more ways than one, OED

 

I hadn't considered the flip side of not telling being detrimental to the WS (and consequently the marriage) in forcing them to live with their lie and thus never forgive themselves. I hadn't really considered the position of the BS in not being allowed to make an informed decision regarding their relationship. I also hadn't considered that by telling it could allow the couple to move on and create something better - probably because it didn't enable me to do that.

 

Something strikes me, yet again, about relationships; they are all as individual and diverse as the people in them, and although that's a really obvious thing to say, I feel it needs pointing out again and again when I read so many inflexible thoughts on what is the moral, the right thing to do. There is no 'one size fits all' and consequently what will be healthy for one couple will be the toll of death for another.

 

However, for me personally, I stick by what I said originally - I would give anything to go back a year and never find out about my exBF's affairs, even if it would mean never achieving more happiness. I could live with it.

 

I guess that's how I feel right now, but, like everything and everyone I'm sure it'll change given time.

 

Indeed, the right and wrong of a relationship are ultimately judged by the people in the relationship.

 

If it were me, wanting to know vs. not wanting to know would probably depend on the circumstances. If we were not married, I would definitely want to know. In fact, this is probably when cheating would piss me off the most - people who cheat while dating are going to be on my shytelist. Just break up with me if you don't like me, but don't lead me on a goosechase and don't expose me to STD's.

 

On the other hand, if I were married for 15 years and had 3 kids...I would probably be just fine not knowing. I know divorcing would not be my immediate reaction if I did find out in that situation. I mean, you've already invested a lot of your life in a relationship by that point. Come to an understanding if you can.

[4whatItsWorth]

... i believe it has ruined our love, our relationship and possibly our future.....

 

No, you knowing didn't ruin it. He ruined it in the first place by going behind your back about it.

 

The "coming clean" is not what ruins the relationship - it's the act of betrayal in the first place.

[serial muse]

Rip, your approach to this issue is pragmatic, ad hoc. Under the situational pragmatic approach maintenance of the relationship is the highest goal.Whether that involves the WS' total confession, partial confession or no confession depends on a host of factors:the BS's anticipated reaction; the impact on family stability; children; etc. The factors are many and are given various weight depending upon the circumstances. Anticipated consequences matter to the situational pragmatist who asks:Must I likely sacrifice my marriage on the Altar of Truth?

 

Opposed to the pragmatists, are the Truth Absolutists. These folks believe that regardless of the consequences the WS must admit everything to the BS. The Truth trumps the relationship. There is no middle ground.

 

For these Moral Extremists one size truly fits all--regardless of individual differences. Consequences of confession are irrelevant. This view makes for great posts, but bad life choices. (Ironically, both the WS and Truth Absolutists share one thing in common: both engage in, or advocate, a course of action that might nuke the marriage. They both risk turning a marriage/family into Ground Zero.The weapons are different: infidelity vs. a moral totalitarianism).

 

I stand with the situational pragmatists so long as life remains much, much more complicated than the righteous anger expressed on a Message Board.

 

Then there are the Branders - those folks who have to give all the different viewpoints a name and classify them into camps.

 

Just joshin' wit ya.

 

But the interesting thing, as a counterpoint to your post, MS, is that while I advocate telling, I would say that my position on the matter is actually relative and pragmatic, from my point of view. Of course, that's because everyone prefers to think of themselves as pragmatic rather than Absolutist, which is an annoying descriptor.

 

I think you can take this argument in any direction you want, really, to suit one's personal preferences, but I could as easily argue that saying that it's possible to "save" a relationship by keeping the affair under wraps only describes a part of the truth, because ultimately the relationship that's saved is a matter of perception, since the BS has not become aware of the conditions and the WS is altering their own expectations and behavior to match. So, posing the question as whether to sacrifice a marriage on the altar of Truth is, to my mind, a rather misleading question. The marriage/relationship has become altered already; telling would alter it further, of course, but the real truth that any self-respecting Situational Pragmatist should come to terms with is that it has already become a third thing - one that the BS is unclear on and the WS is frantically making up as s/he goes along.

 

My personal stance on the issue - that I'd want to know and be a fully participating partner in forging (or not) a new relationship with my spouse post-affair - is absolutely based on how I feel, which is why I say it's relative. I do not suggest that 100% of the people in the world will agree with me. But I do say it's pragmatic because I have observed, after being around here for several years and talking over the issue with lots of family and friends, that most people will say the same. Obviously, not all, which is why you can't make anything absolute. But I think to say most is still fair.

 

Regardless, the sticking point for me is the implied argument for not telling: it suggests that, although the BS may make it clear that s/he'd want to know, they may in fact not know what's really good for them. While I know it's meant as pragmatism and intended to be for the good of the relationship, it's also rather condescending - and that point is probably a lot more galling to someone who has already been on the receiving end of that kind of condescension, having been intentionally kept in the dark, than to someone who wasn't. To me, that's a different kind of absolutism - one in which the WS has determined that they, and they alone, know what's for the best. In fact, there's another word you used that I think applies even more poignantly - it's a kind of totalitarian approach to the relationship (if we're going to be histrionic about it. )

 

I guess I'm saying that, to me, the most situationally pragmatic solution is one in which the two parties who are in the relationship anyway figure it out together.

 

So I would hardly call myself a Moral Absolutist. I admit I don't like being lied to. And I certainly want the chance to make my own decisions for myself and my own life, with the best possible information. But then, that's me. Taking the fun labels a step further, I suppose I consider myself a capitalist on the matter.

[Trialbyfire]

The fact is you think I'm condescending because I don't agree with you. The problem is you can't manage to simply say that you disagree with me and stop there, you need to degrade me as well. Fair is fair, I guess. I blew up really early on at you and upon realizing my hasty judgment and lopsided retribution I apologized, which went unacknowledged and unaccepted. I'll just have to deal with that.

 

Why is it, though that you can't make your point without denigrating the counter-point? Here you go so far as to say that you doubt my sincerity and whether or not my wife was actually unfaithful. Classy.

 

I'm not going to re-hash my position, but suffice to say that it obviously differs from your own, I was cheated on, and I did handle my situation differently. Here's how mine turned out: my wife cheated on me 7 years ago, she told me, we separated, we got counseling (lots), we un-separated, we worked really hard - both of us, we reconciled, we had two more children since then (total of 4 now) and have now been married 12 -1/2 years. The reason I am here now is that a distance is growing between us again and I'm terrified that my wife will "fall off the wagon". I'm pretty certain that the reason is that I've been in a massive growth phase in my business and have had to spend a lot of time away from home. The financial prosperity that I've been working hard to create has not created less stress like I've always imagined it would. I may need to take a step back and turn things a little more over to my general manager in order to spend more time at home.

 

I love my wife dearly and don't want to imagine a life without her. Whatever her imperfections, I'm willing to deal with them with her, and she's willing to deal with mine. My position comes from my heart and whatever insults you hurl at me won't change that. What can change is seeing how if my situation was different, I might wish a different handling of it.

 

Personally, I've learned a lot from this thread and I hope others have as well.

For all you know, she's continued to cheat on you through the years and has finally found someone that she maybe connecting with. The only problem is that you don't want to know so she's not telling you about it, which is okay with you.

[norajane]

The reason I am here now is that a distance is growing between us again and I'm terrified that my wife will "fall off the wagon". I'm pretty certain that the reason is that I've been in a massive growth phase in my business and have had to spend a lot of time away from home. The financial prosperity that I've been working hard to create has not created less stress like I've always imagined it would. I may need to take a step back and turn things a little more over to my general manager in order to spend more time at home.

 

I love my wife dearly and don't want to imagine a life without her. Whatever her imperfections, I'm willing to deal with them with her, and she's willing to deal with mine.

 

And THIS is exactly why it was best for your marriage that your wife told you about her affair. If she had not told you, you might be oblivious to how your current actions could jeopardize your relationship because of her tendency to look outside your marriage for attention. She might have cheated again, or cheated again long before now. If you didn't know she was capable of cheating when things got bad between you, you would continue working hard and thinking all was well when, instead, all was a sham and you could be betrayed again.

 

Since you know who your wife is - someone capable of cheating when things get bad - you know that now is the time to focus on making changes so your marriage doesn't get to the point where she chooses that as her default solution to your problems. If you don't have it in you to live that way - trying to accommodate for her capability of cheating on you - then you have the option of leaving. But if she had kept the wool pulled over your eyes, you'd have no options now except to be a cuckhold again and again, for as often as felt the need to stray.

 

I really, truly, wholeheartedly understand the "ignorance is bliss" concept if the cheater is remorseful and plans never to cheat again and puts 100% into working on making the relationship better. Oh, how nice it would be if it were really just a harmless mistake that didn't need to be told, if the BS didn't have to hear the horribly hurtful information that would destory so much! At the same time, though, it never works out that way. The damage is already done, the cracks have formed in the foundation, and no matter how long it takes, the house will eventually crumble, one way or another.

[Oper Edei Deixai]

And THIS is exactly why it was best for your marriage that your wife told you about her affair. If she had not told you, you might be oblivious to how your current actions could jeopardize your relationship because of her tendency to look outside your marriage for attention. She might have cheated again, or cheated again long before now. If you didn't know she was capable of cheating when things got bad between you, you would continue working hard and thinking all was well when, instead, all was a sham and you could be betrayed again.

 

Since you know who your wife is - someone capable of cheating when things get bad - you know that now is the time to focus on making changes so your marriage doesn't get to the point where she chooses that as her default solution to your problems. If you don't have it in you to live that way - trying to accommodate for her capability of cheating on you - then you have the option of leaving. But if she had kept the wool pulled over your eyes, you'd have no options now except to be a cuckhold again and again, for as often as felt the need to stray.

 

I really, truly, wholeheartedly understand the "ignorance is bliss" concept if the cheater is remorseful and plans never to cheat again and puts 100% into working on making the relationship better. Oh, how nice it would be if it were really just a harmless mistake that didn't need to be told, if the BS didn't have to hear the horribly hurtful information that would destory so much! At the same time, though, it never works out that way. The damage is already done, the cracks have formed in the foundation, and no matter how long it takes, the house will eventually crumble, one way or another.

 

I see your point. May I offer another?

 

Let me precede this by saying that I have never sat down with my wife and said "If this ever happens again, please don't tell me. There are a minute number of issues which should not be discussed with your spouse and are better suited to being discussed with complete strangers, and this is one of them. She DOES NOT KNOW that I would have preferred not to know.

 

Now, here's my counter situation. Because I know that my wife had an affair 7 years ago, I am now very sensitive to the condition of the marriage and our level of closeness/intimacy. I believe, 7 years later, that my wife thought that the affair was a horrible, horrible mistake and has "learned her lesson". but now, when things get strained all these years later, my mind immediately jumps to possibility that she could cheat again. I have absolutely no evidence that she is, and with a 3 year old and an infant at home (she's a stay-at-home mom) the logistics of an affair even being possible are ridiculously complicated. But here I am, assuming the worst, of a woman who is 99.999% likely to be completely innocent. (warning venturing into hypotheticals here) If I was unaware of the affair and we were heading into rough times, I would still be concerned, because I love my wife. It would still get my attention, but without me assuming that she is getting some strange.

 

There are, I believe, 2 valid ways to look at it.

[norajane]

But here I am, assuming the worst, of a woman who is 99.999% likely to be completely innocent. (warning venturing into hypotheticals here) If I was unaware of the affair and we were heading into rough times, I would still be concerned, because I love my wife. It would still get my attention, but without me assuming that she is getting some strange.

 

There are, I believe, 2 valid ways to look at it.

 

See, the thing is, my view is it wouldn't have gotten your attention, because you would have no idea that she was capable of cheating, and it would never cross your mind that she'd walk out with no job and a 3 year old and an infant just because you were working long hours - in your mind, doing what was best for your business and earning more for your family.

 

What exactly is it that you think would have gotten your attention? You would have been unaware you were heading into rough times, because you'd have no idea you'd had rough times before and you'd have no idea what was going on unless she flat out said I'm leaving or I found another man....in which case, she'd already made up her mind to go. You wouldn't have seen it coming, and couldn't have tried to head it off.

[Ladyjane14]

....I am now very sensitive to the condition of the marriage and our level of closeness/intimacy....

 

....with a 3 year old and an infant at home (she's a stay-at-home mom)....

 

You know OED, having small children at home is a REALLY stressful time for almost every couple. Joyous... but stressful.

You've said that you're finely attuned to the level of emotional intimacy in your marriage. It could be that this blip on your radar is just an indicator of something pretty average for most couples with young children.

 

Possibly some of the normal solutions for alleviating stress and promoting intimacy might be in order. Right now, you're wife is REALLY involved with the babies. As a SAHM, they're her focus and her pride. But even so, she'll need a little TLC from time to time. She'll also need to see you INVOLVED in the family in a big way so she feels the "teamwork". :bunny:

 

If you type in the words, "why women leave men, marriagebuilders", you'll find a pretty cool article which will help you get an idea of what alot of women are looking for in terms of emotional intimacy and partnership.

[michelangelo]

I

...but now, when things get strained all these years later, my mind immediately jumps to possibility that she could cheat again. I have absolutely no evidence that she is, and with a 3 year old and an infant at home (she's a stay-at-home mom) the logistics of an affair even being possible are ridiculously complicated. But here I am, assuming the worst, of a woman who is 99.999% likely to be completely innocent. (warning venturing into hypotheticals here) ...

 

Um, not to burst your bubble, but my wife cheated on me with the same situation happening. She pulled it off with a combination of lies, my blind trust, and paid-for babysitting.

 

ANY woman who wants to cheat, especially one who has done it before, can figure out a way to ditch the kids and go get some.

[mrmaximum]

Ick...and so it goes... Truly OED, you are so bloody condescending.

 

The fact is, everyone has an opinion and whatever and however they agree or disagree, has nothing to do with the "best of us" or the "worst of us". These discussions are awesome because they illustrate all sides to this. It is a topic that's painful to many who have posted in this thread. I'm honestly starting to wonder if you were ever cheated on because your attitude tends to come across solely from a cheaters perspective, one who is attempting to justify his indefensible actions.

 

That's interesting that I'm not the only one that brought that up. Here is a question, what if it was your spouse that asked you if you would tell after you cheated. What would you tell them if they asked you point blank? So what say you OED? What would you tell you spouse if they posed this question to you? My Fiancee and I had this same discussion in the beginning since infidelity is such a big part of our respective histories, this is just hypothetical or course, but all the same, what would you say?

[mrmaximum]

No, you knowing didn't ruin it. He ruined it in the first place by going behind your back about it.

 

The "coming clean" is not what ruins the relationship - it's the act of betrayal in the first place.

 

This is where the 'liberal right" seems to get confused. The initial action is what caused the challenge, not telling your spouse about it. We can weigh all these 'nuking the marriage' mumbo jumbo all you want, these thoughts are what should have been considered BEFORE the affair, not after. This is what I mean about shades of grey, the time to grow a conscience about morality isn't after the damage is done, this is what some of the posters here are trying to say, they go together hand in hand, if you cheat, come clean, that's it.

[Scrivdog]

In the all too common scenario where the husband sees that his wife rarely wants sex with him ..

 

Why doesn't she just come out and give the reason? Ex:

 

1) "You physically repulse me"

2) "I no longer have any sexual desires whatsoever"

3) "I don't love you romantically anymore"

..

 

Doesn't she owe that much to her husband? Shouldn't she come clean also? At least that way he knows what kind of marriage he has .. right?

[Trialbyfire]

I did ask you once before. Are you meeting all her needs, besides financial needs?

[whichwayisup]

In the all too common scenario where the husband sees that his wife rarely wants sex with him ..

 

Why doesn't she just come out and give the reason? Ex:

 

1) "You physically repulse me"

2) "I no longer have any sexual desires whatsoever"

3) "I don't love you romantically anymore"

..

 

Doesn't she owe that much to her husband? Shouldn't she come clean also? At least that way he knows what kind of marriage he has .. right?

 

Nice way to mess someone up. I mean, imagine if a husband said to his wife

- You repulse me, I have no sexual attraction towards you, and I don't love you romantically anymore" everybody would be on the guy for even CONSIDERING telling his wife that. SO, why on earth would a wife want to say that to her husband? There are ways of letting your spouse know how you feel WITHOUT killing their heart and giving them insecurities.

[Oper Edei Deixai]

That's interesting that I'm not the only one that brought that up. Here is a question, what if it was your spouse that asked you if you would tell after you cheated. What would you tell them if they asked you point blank? So what say you OED? What would you tell you spouse if they posed this question to you? My Fiancee and I had this same discussion in the beginning since infidelity is such a big part of our respective histories, this is just hypothetical or course, but all the same, what would you say?

 

First: I am NOT a cheater in wolves's clothing. You're childish for suggesting it since I already addressed the post you quoted regarding the point you highlighted. Are you trying to pick a fight? Are you passive aggressive? Is that why your so cheats?

 

Second: That's a pretty twisted conversation to have with your wife/SO. It's a loaded question. I used to ask kids loaded questions why I was little because it was funny when I was 10 ("So, Billy, are you still sh*tting your pants? HAR HAR!"). If you answer yes to your SO, you're implying consent as long as you are given proper notice. If you say no, again you are implying consent, no notice required. Why on earth would you even broach this subject with her? You're just asking for trouble. It's an argument guaranteed.

 

To answer you, however, I would say it depends on what kind of affair it was/is for both the first and second scenarios you describe. Were you/was I in love? Do you/ do I miss them? Did you/I break it off or were you/I the dumped one (i.e. did not end by my decision). All these factors need to be weighed, and the more emotional it was/is it needs to be disclosed. I've said from the beginning of this thread that the topic is not one size fits all relationships and all scenarios. If it was a point blank question from my wife, I'd probably leave the room. To you, as a point blank question, I'd probably hmmm and haaa a lot and eventually say "In the absence of any other details, I'd say yes, I'd like to know."

 

I know that you're sitting basking in the blue glow of your CRT pumping your fist and saying "YEAH! I KNEW IT! HE ADMITTED IT!" but that's how you absolutists see it - corner them into addressing a question with carte blanche criteria and consider it a "victory" when they come up with the answer you want in your little Kobashi maru inquisition. I still think there are a fair number of circumstances where the answer would be "no".

[Oper Edei Deixai]

I did ask you once before. Are you meeting all her needs, besides financial needs?

 

Are you talking to me? I think I am. I hope I am. She says I am, but I have a feeling nonetheless that I am not. I really, really wish I could see her thoughts and see where she'd like me to improve, the things that for whatever reason she feels she can't tell me.

[Oper Edei Deixai]

In the all too common scenario where the husband sees that his wife rarely wants sex with him ..

 

Why doesn't she just come out and give the reason? Ex:

 

1) "You physically repulse me"

2) "I no longer have any sexual desires whatsoever"

3) "I don't love you romantically anymore"

..

 

Doesn't she owe that much to her husband? Shouldn't she come clean also? At least that way he knows what kind of marriage he has .. right?

 

Dude, I have to say the one point the "spill the beans" camp has that I've really had to think hard about is the idea that the cheater gets to decide what the betrayed spouse is allowed to know or not know. I agree that it seems unfair that one half of the couple should not get to decide or limit the other without their consent.

 

That being said, I agree that it is B.S. that the wife (it's almost always the wife) can up and say, "I don't want sex. Therefore, since it is immoral for you to go outside the marriage to get sex, I have decided for you that you will no longer have sex." Women do not see it this way, but that is what they are saying. Here again it is wrong that one partner gets to decide for the other what they will or will not have.

 

Bearing that in mind, you're argument is, well, ridiculous. They are not even in the same GALAXY of magnitude, and is an issue that can be addressed by ultimatum - "we WILL do what is necessary for you to rediscover your libido, or you WILL NOT be married anymore, at least not to me." Having the wife "cut you off" for a reason that she cannot, or will not discuss with you is hardly tantamount to disclosure of an affair.

[Erik]

I agree 100% with OED. 'Coming clean' is the easy way out. Weep a bit, fight a bit, make up, make love. The cheated will feel obliged to forgive and obliged to say that yes, our love is strong enough to bear that. Now the cheater is feeling exonerated and the cheated is feeling soiled.

 

Take responsibility for your sins and lie, lie, lie. Bear your own cross, as OED says, don't unload it onto your spouse.

 

Let me hasten to add, that this advise goes for one-night stands only. If you are cheating on a regular basis and don't want a divorce, honesty is the only thing that MAY work, but it will hurt your spouse a lot and probably ruin, if not end, your marriage.

[Scrivdog]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

 

Many have argued that the cheater needs to disclose because failing to do so leaves the other spouse loyal to the marriage partner for the wrong reasons. I'm following the same arguments given here that by not telling, the spouse can't make a decision to stay in the marriage using all the unformation at his/her disposal.

 

If a husband were to know that his wife no longer loves him nor is attracted to him, then shouldn't he have the chance to know this and decide to stay or not as opposed to being fed a pack of lies?

 

But posters above have suggested that doing so would be cruel and so therefore it should be kept from him.

 

So what is good for the goose is not for the gander?

 

..

Bearing that in mind, you're argument is, well, ridiculous. They are not even in the same GALAXY of magnitude, and is an issue that can be addressed by ultimatum - "we WILL do what is necessary for you to rediscover your libido, or you WILL NOT be married anymore, at least not to me." Having the wife "cut you off" for a reason that she cannot, or will not discuss with you is hardly tantamount to disclosure of an affair.

[Ripples]

No, you knowing didn't ruin it. He ruined it in the first place by going behind your back about it.

 

The "coming clean" is not what ruins the relationship - it's the act of betrayal in the first place.

 

Er, I hate to keep stirring this thread up as I think we all know where each other stands on the tell/not tell issue and it doesn't look like many minds are changed, but (I like that word... ) I wanted to disagree with the statement quoted.

 

I don't believe that the 'coming clean' ruins a relationship, nor do I believe that having an affair ruins it. I think the damage starts off well before either of those things occur and the affair is a symptom of the ruin already incurred. It's just a damn shame that it needs an affair to highlight to both parties just how bad the relationship has got.

 

If an affair will save a marriage then I would bet the threat of an affair would save it too. The parties involved need to talk about it though, and isn't that always the case?

[Erik]

If a husband were to know that his wife no longer loves him nor is attracted to him, then shouldn't he have the chance to know this and decide to stay or not as opposed to being fed a pack of lies?

 

But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about an affair that has already ended. You have already devalued your marriage by breaking it, so why exasperate the mistake?

[Trialbyfire]

If an affair will save a marriage then I would bet the threat of an affair would save it too. The parties involved need to talk about it though, and isn't that always the case?

Save it or create further chasms? This is reliant on the psychy of the individuals.

[Ripples]

Yes, of course you're right, TBF. I'm glad to see that you feel there is no 'one size fits all' solution

 

However, I may have not been clear enough in my post.

 

I feel that when an actual affair will save a particular marriage, i.e. if the marriage dynamic is such that each partner cares for the other enough to recognise crisis point and be willing to work through it. Then the threat of an affair (by this I don't mean one party threatening the other), I am willing to bet, would be enough for each party to examine the relationship and thus save it.

 

Conversely, if an affair will render a marriage unsaveable, then I would be willing to bet that a threat of an affair would not send the couple into examination and reparation.

[Trialbyfire]

Ripples, if a spouse gives every indication of being emotionally distant due to an affair, would it honestly make you want them more, or would it make you put some distance into the relationship too?