Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Moai]

Because intelligence easily produce pride. are you pride? are you humble? doesn't seem so

 

Actually Old Testament and New Testament describe same God. Like I said before, Bible is like a mirror. Meek humble sheep reflect out Love of God, but wrong doer and rebellion goat reflect out anger of God. why God angry? He wants people to treat people right and with love, He wants people to be humble, when people did things wrong or oppress other people, God would angry. Why did you pick out the anger part from Bible? I thought God try to protect meek sheep from wolf:p

 

No, because intelligence works against religion, not for it. My humility is irrelevant to the question as to whether or not god exists, or if he is wrathful or benevolent. To answer your question, I am just as humble as everybody else, I suppose. I am smarter than some people, and not as smart as many others. That goes for every talent that I possess.

 

You are correct, the Old and New Testament describe the same god.

 

Why are there angry parts in the Bible for me to pick out in the first place? And I only selected those because they illustrate my point. God is certainly not angry when people are oppressed, as Numbers clearly shows. As long as it is his favorite people doing the oppressing, he is all for it. There are many, many other examples. Jesus is exactly the same way. When either speaks of love at all (which is rare), it is the love for other believers/Hebrews. It is not for all mankind in general.

 

If god wants believers (and everyone else, by what you have said), why do so few do it? And who defines it? And if that is what god wants, why does he order the opposite so often?

 

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, and to forgive those who trespass against you. Right? If that is a good idea, why doesn't he do that? If I don't believe in his divinity, then I am wronging him in some way, but instead of forgiving me outright, I am consigned to hell. Why one rule for me and another for him? I would never consign anyone to hell just for thinking differently than I do. Does that mean I am more compassionate than god? And how can that be, since I am only human, and he is god?

 

Why does god come back and destroy everything if he is all-loving?

 

For example, when anesthetic was developed for women going through labor, Christian leaders were against it, since god made labor painful because of the fall and to lessen it would be to go against god's wishes. Is that showing love for others? Right now there is a vaccine for HPV, and Christian leaders oppose it. Why? Because it might encourage women to have premarital sex. So, they would rather have their children die a horrible lingering death from cervical cancer than have a simple shot.

 

Does that sound intelligent to you? Or even remotely rational? Or even loving?

[burning 4 revenge]

The concept of God continued to change with time. There were influences from the Persians and the Greeks on the Jewish conception of God in successive historical periods. There were debates within the community. It isn't all so cut and dry.

 

The ideas of light and darkness and Heaven and Hell came from the Persians. The idea of the afterlife probably came from Egypt. It's even been speculated that the entire monotheistic belief system originated there and that Mosaic law has its origins in Egypt as well.

 

Whatever else you may think, I think that the Jewish respect for life at the time of Jesus' ministry was a rarity in the Ancient world, although there were others who had that same repsect for life. Was it a compassionate religion? No, perhaps not, but the fifth commandment still seems remarkable to me in the historical context.

[Love Hurts]

Point blank I am asking you these questions:

 

Do you believe that the bible is the word of god?

 

Do you accept that the bible is true?

 

----

 

As for the other one's I have asked you a couple of times on this thread and others over the last few months - it's alright. You don't have to answer.

 

It must be difficult to be locked away from society. You must fear stigma.

 

But don't worry - your secret is safe with me.

 

 

Ok, I am sorry to have missed your questions in this thread; I coast around the net boards and often times do not read all posting in a thread.

 

Yes I believe the word of God is true… Holy Men convicted by the Holy Spirit wrote the word of God… The same Spirit that rose Christ from the Grave… The same Spirit that washes us from the inside out. Yes do believe a few insignificant errors through the translations. Still it holds the Truth that we need to know. The heart of scripture is on Salvation... Christ came to save us.

 

2 Peter 1:21

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Island Girl]

Yes do believe a few insignificant errors through the translations.

 

If you believe there are errors in translations -- how do you know which are errors and which are not?

 

How do YOU know which passages should be accepted literally and which can be discarded due to error in translations?

 

I am asking YOU these questions. I want to see your words not bible quotations.

 

Also - you didn't answer:

 

Do you believe the bible is the literal word of god?

 

And do you believe in the bible?

[Moai]

Ok, I am sorry to have missed your questions in this thread; I coast around the net boards and often times do not read all posting in a thread.

 

Yes I believe the word of God is true… Holy Men convicted by the Holy Spirit wrote the word of God… The same Spirit that rose Christ from the Grave… The same Spirit that washes us from the inside out. Yes do believe a few insignificant errors through the translations. Still it holds the Truth that we need to know. The heart of scripture is on Salvation... Christ came to save us.

 

2 Peter 1:21

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

Errors in translation? Do tell! How can you tell what are errors and what is correct? Are you relying on men who know ancient Greek, for example, and their recent translation? And how do you know that they are correct?

 

The heart of Scripture is certainly not on salvation, although i am sure you would like it to be The vast majority of the bible focuses on bizarre food restrictions, how to treat slaves, cruel punishments for slight transgressions (i.e. stoning someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath), whether or not women can speak in church, and the end of the world. Jesus is only even in four small chapters. And even then, he is not focused fully on salvation. If you read the text, Jesus says that most people will go to hell.

 

"Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

That means that even people who THINK that they are doing the Lord's will, and earnestly believe that will still go to Hell. That means even you could be one of them. And, if the translations are in error, how do you know if what you are doing is right?

 

"Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

So god definitely wants us to be afraid of him. Can you love what you are afraid of?

 

Jesus speaks in parables specifically confuse people so they will go to hell. Why does Jesus want anyone to go to Hell?

 

"Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"

[Love Hurts]

i'm astonished you think it's acceptable to be this judgmental, LH. be careful not to overlook the beam in your own eye while you're inspecting everyone else's eyes for motes. you have been instructed by jesus to love and never to judge. the way of god is love, not fear. if you were able to take an impartial look at your posts i think you would see that they are often filled with fear. 'if you do this you'll go to hell. if you don't think that you'll go to hell. god punishes sinners' etc etc etc.

 

please stop speaking like this, for your own good as well as other people's. if you want to live in fear of hell and think god is an angry, vengeful being, good for you. you're wrong, but you have every right to be if you want. seriously, you risk turning people off christianity with this incessant fearmongering. some of the people here might benefit from coming closer to a loving god, but you are speaking as if god is something to be feared. i'm afraid it comes across as if there is very little love in your posts - only judgment about what everyone else is doing wrong. i don't condemn you for it, but if you know god you should know better.

 

i know you think you are doing it for their own good, but actually it appears that you are placing people on a scale of being less worthy than you are. you even said in another post that you wonder who is saved and who isn't. why is this your concern? while you look at people to categorise them into 'saved' and 'damned' you are not seeing them as god sees them. the message of jesus is one of love. if you're speaking on behalf of jesus, you should be preaching it.

 

Bluestueday,

 

I will wake up a sleeper. I do not cradle the weak or cater to the wicked. I am speaking to you in the spiritual realm my friend.

I will call an orange and orange and an apple an apple.

 

Life is short; many are on the wrong path. My one and only desire it to win Souls from the grip of Satan.

 

You can sell ice-cream sundaes and I will say look here…. do you see that fire pit… Scripture tells us that’s a real place. And if you don’t wake up my friend scripture tells us that’s where you are headed.

 

Ok so I will step on toes and squelch the kiss of Judah… I am not baby-sitting sleepers. Blow the trump and say wake up eternity is; you will never ever die. So where- go- you my friend?

 

Judgmental … you must be able to discern that we are permitted to judge. Did you know that?

If I could not judge nor you…. Guess what? None of us would find Christ. We would all be deceived and devoured by wolves.

 

THE FINE LINE:

 

Judge not...

Beware of wolves in sheep clothing.

Don’t cast your pearls to swine

By their fruits you shall know them.

_____________________

Judge

 

2 Chronicles 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Judge not- do not cast stones.............. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy

brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye

We to shall be judged by the measurement we judge others… {Self explanatory

 

Wolves:

Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Luke 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

 

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Many souls can and will be lead away by the non-ability to discern the difference in a false profit or minister. (Ex. Jim Jones, some Televangelists or the Anti Christ}

_____________________

Pearls

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 13:45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchantman, seeking goodly pearls:

Job 28:18No mention shall be made of coral, or of pearls: for the price of wisdom is above rubies.

Don’t cast your pearls to swine; discern swine. Swine can gobble anything including the dirt from the ground and are still unfulfilled, left empty.

___________________

Fruit

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them..

By their fruits you shall know them..... Discerning by words and works of : this is also for one proclaiming salvation... you will know by their fruits including words...... {Some of us are slower at the ability to discern than others).

 

Plucking fruit from a tree;

We know.... Fresh, ripe fruit.

Green.... immature fruit.

 

The in-between stages: of fruits growth.

We also know.... Bruised fruit.

From.... Rotten fruit.

 

WE DISCERN OTHERS ON THE FRUIT SCALE.

EX. We can relate to as fruits: discerning by works.

Mary Mother of God, ..........(Ripe)

Peter (walking on water).....(Almost ripe)

Doubting Thomas............ (New fruit)

Clinton.................. (Bruised fruit)

Hitler..................(Rotten fruit)

_______________________

The fine line of a discerning spirit to know and see through...

does not mean that we cannot draw an honest, righteous conclusion about another person.

 

It says that we cannot make judgmental, condemning, and hateful statements about another person.

 

The Sermon on the Mount Study on Judging explains ...this passage. In fact, Jesus has told us that we can evaluate others if we do it righteously after listening and knowing the truth.

 

All of the tools needed are listed above and then we decide...without condemnation.

 

Matthew 10:16

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

 

Yes Jesus is Love… with Easter approaching imagine what Love He displayed, as He was tortured He suffered and died for us… that’s love….

Why Bluestueday………Why did He do that? Why did He claim us worthy?

Love…He Loves us so much He stretched out His arms and died for us.

He came to save us… Here it is …what in the world did He come to save us from?

 

[and I can not be thankful enough… the more I realize what I have been spared from… the more I want others to know…

about a place called] Hell.

 

God Bless*

[Island Girl]

Fruit

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them..

By their fruits you shall know them..... Discerning by words and works of : this is also for one proclaiming salvation... you will know by their fruits including words...... {Some of us are slower at the ability to discern than others).

 

Just so you know -- the whole people judged by the fruit scale is ridiculous.

 

I am by no means limiting the response to just this - but this warrants immediate swift reply.

 

"Fruits" in the biblical quotations above are ACTIONS.

 

As in by their actions or words you shall know them.

 

:lmao::lmao:

 

It does not go further to say some actions are "ripe" or "bruised", etc.

 

The analogy as far as fruit goes stops at the reference to actions.

 

But it was great to see your "spin" on it. Delightfully amusing and yet tragic and sad all at the same time.

[RecordProducer]

Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

There are always two possibilities, aren't tre...?

[Moai]

WE DISCERN OTHERS ON THE FRUIT SCALE.

EX. We can relate to as fruits: discerning by works.

Mary Mother of God, ..........(Ripe)

Peter (walking on water).....(Almost ripe)

Doubting Thomas............ (New fruit)

Clinton.................. (Bruised fruit)

Hitler..................(Rotten fruit)

 

:laugh:That is so funny!

 

I like how you have Clinton just above Hitler. I'm no fan of his or anything, but I would say that he is a long way from Hitler. A long, long way.

 

Most of the Fundamentalists I have read are just about the same as Hitler, just as filled with hate, just as anti-freedom, and just as bankrupt. I'll quote a couple for you:

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif][sIZE=2]

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

--Randall Terry, The News Sentinel, (Ft. Wayne, IN.), 8/16/93

 

[/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif][sIZE=2] "The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."

-- Gary North - Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism, Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989, p. 87

 

[/sIZE][/FONT]If the "fruit scale" is true, where do Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, and just about every other evangelist rank? They lie in the name of the Lord, so are they worse than rotten fruit, or bruised, or what?

 

And how is it that so many people, who believe just as you do, are taken in by such men? They espouse the same beliefs as you, and yet they are clearly evil. Does that mean that all those people are cursed, as the Holy Spirit didn't help them discern the evangelists' true intent?

 

And Jesus saved you from something he himself created. Why create it in the first place? Why mot just forgive everyone out of hand, since nobody is, or ever will be, perfect?

[lonelybird]

Jesus is exactly the same way. When either speaks of love at all (which is rare), it is the love for other believers/Hebrews. It is not for all mankind in general.

I just check out those verses you quoted, the same as I said before, God angry because of wrong doings, God punish them because God want to protect sheep from wolf. and want wolf to become sheep. and by the way you did a good job to twist the Bible, pls read again, maybe Satan lied to you.

 

Then why did Jesus ask God to forgive those who crucified him? Those people were not believers. and why Jesus commanded us "love your enemy"?

 

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, and to forgive those who trespass against you. Right? If that is a good idea, why doesn't he do that? If I don't believe in his divinity, then I am wronging him in some way, but instead of forgiving me outright, I am consigned to hell. Why one rule for me and another for him? I would never consign anyone to hell just for thinking differently than I do. Does that mean I am more compassionate than god? And how can that be, since I am only human, and he is god?

 

His divinity embrace many things. Jesus himself is love, humble, pure.....why would a person reject HIM? because of HIS commandments are too strict? When you turn to Jesus and receive Him, this means you realized that you are a sinner which contrary to self-rightneousness, means you embrace his commandment, means you decided living in Spiritual realm, rather than non spiritual realm. If you reject him, probably there are something you don't want to give up, such as money, pride, lust, violent....and these things will NOT bring salvation.

Do you think you reject Jesus, means Jesus doesn't exist? No, God is real, living. whether you embrace and receive Jesus or not, your destiny is decided by your decision.

 

Image this pls (because you don't believe yet): God is real, obey and faith in God will bring you soul salvation. IF you don't obey, no soul salvation. and Jesus came to make it possible for us. YOU tell me, Jesus came to save or destroy?

[lonelybird]

Why mot just forgive everyone out of hand, since nobody is, or ever will be, perfect?

Oh, then everybody can do WHATEVER they want? I see....

[Love Hurts]

If you believe there are errors in translations -- how do you know which are errors and which are not?

 

How do YOU know which passages should be accepted literally and which can be discarded due to error in translations?

 

I am asking YOU these questions. I want to see your words not bible quotations.

 

Also - you didn't answer:

 

Do you believe the bible is the literal word of god?

 

And do you believe in the bible?

 

Do you believe the bible is the literal word of god? Yes

And do you believe in the bible? Yes

 

The heart of the Bible Teaching … is on Christ is the promised child… the one from old from everlasting was to come to be born amongst men on earth.

 

Jesus did not baptize in earthly water… He taught Baptism of the Holy Spirit… Through Salvation.

 

He called it; Saved and or Born again.

Born again is to be born of the Holy Spirit … the old man [in you] dies and the new man [in you] begins.

 

Saved is what He came to save us from… they are the same only each explain the purpose of and define Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

He died on the cross claiming He had to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb.

Why the blood shed? Sin is grave to God. Before the cross; sacrificial animals were burnt offerings to Yahweh the Father. The blood of bulls and goats was a covering for sin but not atonement.

 

Christ blood is the blood necessary for sins atonement.

Why did all this have to happen? We have to go back to the fall of Lucifer from Heaven… it explains evil upon earth. And that Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. Adam/ Eve; sin brought upon mankind. All men are sinners none are righteous.

 

Jesus died and rose from the grave… that who will believe in Him will not perish but live eternally.

Jesus said if we saw Him we saw the Father who art in Heaven… and that the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are the three in one- The Holy Trinity.

 

He also taught no man can get to the Father but through the Son.

Jesus called come to me; all that hear my voice.

So the heart of the Bible is on Salvation… the validity of that truth is many have all ready been saved many have been filled with the Holy Spirit, many have had answers to prayers and experienced miracles…many have had visions.

 

Many know today what every previous generation since the cross know… He Lives.

 

The Bible is not just a book, its alive because He is alive.

If none can grasp this heart of the Bible and believe it…. The rest is useless.

 

Why?

Jesus said He is the way and the truth and the eternal life through salvation…

 

Without salvation there is no eternal life with Jesus.

The rest of the word is knowledge gained and knowledge alone doesn’t save anybody.

 

____________________________________

 

Ok not ignoring... I'll get back to your other questions shortly....

 

God Bless*

[Moai]

I just check out those verses you quoted, the same as I said before, God angry because of wrong doings, God punish them because God want to protect sheep from wolf. and want wolf to become sheep. and by the way you did a good job to twist the Bible, pls read again, maybe Satan lied to you.

 

How could Satan have lied to me? I am quoting from the Bible, the word of god. God punished young virgin girls? To what end? What were they doing that they should have been sent into sexual slavery for the rest of their lives? Maybe you should read the Bible again. And read the whole thing, not just the parts your pastor wants you to highlight.

 

Then why did Jesus ask God to forgive those who crucified him? Those people were not believers. and why Jesus commanded us "love your enemy"?

 

If Jesus wants god to forgive unbelievers, why does he say later that he won't? Why does Jesus contradict himself? I don't see anyone, let alone Christians loving their enemies. Unless you mean by "love" you mean "kill".

 

His divinity embrace many things. Jesus himself is love, humble, pure.....why would a person reject HIM? because of HIS commandments are too strict? When you turn to Jesus and receive Him, this means you realized that you are a sinner which contrary to self-rightneousness, means you embrace his commandment, means you decided living in Spiritual realm, rather than non spiritual realm. If you reject him, probably there are something you don't want to give up, such as money, pride, lust, violent....and these things will NOT bring salvation.

Do you think you reject Jesus, means Jesus doesn't exist? No, God is real, living. whether you embrace and receive Jesus or not, your destiny is decided by your decision.

 

I am not sure I understand that paragraph, but yes, I reject Jesus because I don't think he exists. Being self-righteous has nothing to do with it--are all Jews self-righteous? And you refer to salvation as if it is something that everyone is looking for, or that somehow exists outside of your belief system. It doesn't. I am not looking for salvation at all. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible is not the word of god, whatsoever. If you read it for yourself and actually think about what it says, you won't be either.

 

Image this pls (because you don't believe yet): God is real, obey and faith in God will bring you soul salvation. IF you don't obey, no soul salvation. and Jesus came to make it possible for us. YOU tell me, Jesus came to save or destroy?

 

I don't believe that Jesus came for either one of those things. I don't believe that he was god. I used to, but I don't anymore. And the more I read the Bible, and learn about what it says the less I believe it. It is nonsensical to me that an omnipotent superbeing would care what I believe one way or the other. Not only that, I am not Hebrew, so the god of Abraham has no interest for me whatsoever.

 

If I wade inot a flood and save ten orphans but don't believe in god, I go to hell. If you stand on the bank and watch them drown but you believe, you go to Heaven. That is a bankrupt idea.

 

What about all the people who died after Jesus died but never heard of him--namely, all the people living in the Americas before the Spanish arrived? All of them are in hell. All of them. Little infants go to hell. Retarded people go to hell. Does that sound like love to you?

 

But The Bible says that Jesus came to do both of those things.

[Moai]

Oh, then everybody can do WHATEVER they want? I see....

 

Everyone can do whatever they want. If what you want to do is a crime, you will be punished. Here, on Earth. By other people, who have come up with a system of justice far superior to the one described in the Bible.

 

According to the Bible, by the way, you can do whatever you want, but as long as you accept Jesus before you die you got to Heaven. Hitler, if he accepted Jesus, would be in Heaven. Dahmer, if he accepted Jesus, would be in Heaven. Ghandi, because he was not a Christian, is in hell. Nice.

[Love Hurts]

If you believe there are errors in translations -- how do you know which are errors and which are not?

 

How do YOU know which passages should be accepted literally and which can be discarded due to error in translations?

 

 

Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee [from] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

--Here we study a mistranslation from Greek to English;

 

Ek always means- [OUT OF].

DIA ALWAYS MEANS- THROUGH.

 

IN THE GREEK TRANSLATION...EK IS USED IN THE BIBLE 800 TIMES 799 TIMES IT MEANS- OUT OF.

 

ONE TIME IN- GALATIANS 3:8 -IT MEANS- THROUGH.

GOD IS TRYING TO TELL US HE WILL KEEP US OUT OF - FROM....THE TRIBULATION....EK.- OUT OF.

 

 

--Here we should read plurality

II Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him...{IMPUTED THROUGH SALVATION.

 

Revelation19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the ...righteousness of saints.

{THIS IS WORKS AFTER COMMITMENT

 

In original Greek in this 8th verse of Rev.19 is righteousness:

is ***righteousnesses... PLURAL- to include WORKS after SALVATION.

 

___________________________________

Here is an example of literal and non;

 

Exodus 3:2

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. [This is literal].

 

Revelation 1:14

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [this is not literal when it has... like as... or ...as like... or ...as a... its to compare to]

___________________________________________________

Here we have a line out of place due to miss number placement;

 

REV. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

JOHN NOW OBSERVES THRONES OCCUPIED FOR JUDGMENT.

WHO SITS UPON THEM?

MEMBERS OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION – WHICH INCLUDES:

THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS...... CHURCH AGE SAINTS

AND TRIBULATION SAINTS.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

BELIEVERS IS DESCRIBED ......DANIEL 12:1 -2.

 

THE RESURRECTION THE NEW TEST SAINTS

1 THES. 4:16 -18 &......in 1 COR. 15:15-54.

 

AS WE HAVE SEEN, THE RESURRECTION OF THE MARTYRED

TRIBULATION SAINTS (receiving their glorified bodies)

UNDOUBTEDLY OCCURS AT THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF CHRIST

(TITUS 2:13)....

 

WHEN HE RETURNS TO EARTH.

CHAPTER 6 VERSE 9 PRESENTED THIS VIEW.

 

At this point.............these martyrs awaited their resurrection but were told to wait yet for a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren. That should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thus, we see that the thrones are occupied by resurrected believers from Adam onward, inclusive of the last Tribulation martyrs. Each has been a participant in the first resurrection.

 

These saints are entitled to ROYAL PRIESTHOOD (1 Peter 2:9). Christ has made them kings and priests (Chapter 5 verse 10).

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

----So here the closing sentence of this verse, THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION, should have been the conclusion of verse 4. The transition from verse 4 to verse 5 would then be:

AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

(this is the first resurrection)

 

BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED.

 

-----THE DEAD OF VERSES 5- RAISED A THOUSAND YEARS LATER-

Could not be part of the first resurrection.....(those of verse 4) because.....

 

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years...

 

SINCE THE REMAINING DEAD COME FORTH ON THOUSAND YEARS LATER,

We immediately understand that they cannot be part of the first resurrection... those who take part in the first resurrection reign with Christ during the millennium, while the members of this group remain in their graves. They in turn are raised for the great white throne judgment after the 1,000 years.

 

Remember the Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.This judgment is for the wicked.

 

___________________________________________

 

This is an idea on mistranslations. Not so grave we could loose our way.

And a showing of literal and non literal.

Also a verse line is numberd slightly off by one line.

No scripture is thrown out the door... we keep it all.

 

Hope this helps.

[Love Hurts]

Errors in translation? Do tell! How can you tell what are errors and what is correct? Are you relying on men who know ancient Greek, for example, and their recent translation? And how do you know that they are correct?

 

The heart of Scripture is certainly not on salvation, although i am sure you would like it to be The vast majority of the bible focuses on bizarre food restrictions, how to treat slaves, cruel punishments for slight transgressions (i.e. stoning someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath), whether or not women can speak in church, and the end of the world. Jesus is only even in four small chapters. And even then, he is not focused fully on salvation. If you read the text, Jesus says that most people will go to hell.

 

"Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

That means that even people who THINK that they are doing the Lord's will, and earnestly believe that will still go to Hell. That means even you could be one of them. And, if the translations are in error, how do you know if what you are doing is right?

 

"Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

So god definitely wants us to be afraid of him. Can you love what you are afraid of?

 

Jesus speaks in parables specifically confuse people so they will go to hell. Why does Jesus want anyone to go to Hell?

 

"Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"

 

 

First off we live on this side of the cross so as Adulterers of the Old Testament were stoned to death for their sins and the innocent party was left free to remarry again the very next morning. Jesus said let Him who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

Today men and woman are free to divorce on grounds of divorce… it is not the unforgivable sin to get divorced. So we have to be able to separate [some] of the teachings of the Old Testament scriptures to the New Testament … Jesus changed things.

 

["Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

That means that even people who THINK that they are doing the Lord's will, and earnestly believe that will still go to Hell. That means even you could be one of them. And, if the translations are in error, how do you know if what you are doing is right?]

 

MATTHEW 7:21 – SPEAKS OF A MENTAL ASSENT ITS NOT OF THE HEART.

This scripture is further supported in

 

1 Corinthians 15:2

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

And better explained here….

How do we know our salvation is real or not?

 

The Demons the Fallen Angels Believe and tremble

James 2:19 They were there when He was there.

For Christ is from old from everlasting. Micah 5:2

But knowledge doesn’t Save anybody.

In Jesus day many believed on Him when they saw the Miracles that He did...Why Not? What Power He Has!

But Jesus did not believe in them.

For He knew all men.

 

In John 2:23-24 He could see that It was just and Intellectual Ascent. Paul said I declare unto you the Gospel Jesus Knows All Men

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

The Gospel How Christ died and was buried and Rose Again.

 

I Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand

Vs .3_4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

I Believe. Oh Boy I Got It. Jesus died, was buried and He rose again yes...I accept. ... That intellectually mentally so I’m going to Heaven!

Paul said this gospel of the Death Burial and Resurrection will... Save you ...unless you have believed in Vein.

 

An empty mental ascent... Ya ... I Believe George Washington lived.

... Ya ... I Believe Jesus lived...Isn’t that enough.

 

How do we know our salvation is real or not?

When Its from the heart. Not the mind.

 

The Bible explains itself…

 

 

["Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

So god definitely wants us to be afraid of him. Can you love what you are afraid of?

Jesus speaks in parables specifically confuse people so they will go to hell. Why does Jesus want anyone to go to Hell? ]

 

SATAN IS THE DESTROYER AND CHRIST DIED TO SAVE US FROM;

People that hate God and think He is a liar. People that mock Him and live for Satan their entire lives…. Have no place with Christ in eternity either.

 

My analogy here; A child in its young adult life time may want nothing to do with their parent, upon death why would that child want that dreaded parent to bury its body or have anything to do with it? Likewise why would a child that hated God want Him to have anything to do with his or her eteranal soul?

 

["Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"]

 

Parables are of the Spirit… Some will see and not understand what they see; some will hear and not understand what they hear, they may never realize through salvation their sins are forgiven. Note this mans freewill or own choice.

 

The Bible repeats itself many times. We can compare books of like same verses and see they confirm one another. No scripture is of single interpretation but is supported by two or more like same scriptures.

For example.

 

John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

John 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

1 Peter 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

----By the time you get to 1 Peter 1:23 you understand; now if this verse is a question so look it up… and study corruption vs incorruption.

 

1 Corinthians 15:42

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

1 Corinthians 15:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

1 Corinthians 15:53

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

1 Corinthians 15:54

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

----It just keeps getting deeper and deeper and it takes years to study the Bible …

But it does explain itself…for every question of the verse your looking there is support and more information elsewhere.

____________________________________________

 

The simplest to understand is the heart of the Bible; Salvation.

Children can understand it. Actually Jesus said come to me as a child believe as a child believes.

How does a child believe? A child does believe what it hears and does expect it.

 

God Bless*

[lonelybird]

Wow, Love Hurts, you preach like no tomorrow.

Ok, there are some quotes about love from Bible, I like them very much! People need love these days.....

 

--But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

--Why should God reward you if you love only the people who love you? Even the tax collectors do that!

--The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear the message; but the worries about this life and the love for riches choke the message, and they don't bear fruit.

--respect your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

--Jesus answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

--I tell you, then, the great love she has shown proves that her many sins have been forgiven. But whoever has been forgiven little shows only a little love."

--Jesus answered him, "Those who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and my Father and I will come to them and live with them

--This hope does not disappoint us, for God has poured out his love into our hearts by means of the Holy Spirit, who is God's gift to us

--For I am certain that nothing can separate us from his love: neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers or powers, neither the present nor the future,

--Love must be completely sincere. Hate what is evil, hold on to what is good

--If you love others, you will never do them wrong; to love, then, is to obey the whole Law.

--Now, concerning what you wrote about food offered to idols. It is true, of course, that "all of us have knowledge," as they say. Such knowledge, however, puffs a person up with pride; but love builds up.

--I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell

--I may have the gift of inspired preaching; I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets; I may have all the faith needed to move mountains-but if I have no love, I am nothing.

--Love is patient and kind; it is not jealous or conceited or proud;

love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; love does not keep a record of wrongs;

love is not happy with evil, but is happy with the truth.

Love never gives up; and its faith, hope, and patience never fail.

Love is eternal.

--Meanwhile these three remain: faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love.

[lonelybird]

The whole Bible is a book of love. If I invite dear Jesus into my heart, He will forgive my sin, will change me to be like Him, He will console me when I am down, He will advise me which road I should go when I ask Him. He loves me unconditionally. Jesus is a light in a dark place, always shine on the road I go. and I know I will go to a beautiful place after I die, but on this earth I still live the best, how cannot I? Jesus bring joys to me in this earth and heaven. Praise God

 

That's my understanding about Bible, quite SIMPLE

[lonelybird]

A quick way to soul salvation is "love God", before love God, should know who God is, what God did. When someone died for you in order to save you, you don't appreciate at all? Jesus suffered so much before died on cross. come on, don't continually harden your heart like this. Did you see movie The Passion of the Christ? which prophecy died like him? nobody, why, because they are human being. Jesus willingly gave up his life, He could've escape, but He chose not to, why? because He want to save YOU, He want to obey God. God loves Jesus very much, but God planed all this, why? God love us too much, God want us to be like Jesus who is humble, love people, even forgave the people who crucified Him. wake up! Don't you know that Satan don't want you to see this truth? Don't you see that Satan only want to destroy you? Don't harden your heart like this.

 

IF your friend died for you, you don't feel anything?

[Moai]

I Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand

Vs .3_4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

I think that you misunderstand my position. I understand exactly what you believe, and I am fully aware that you can quote ad nauseum from the Bible to support your faith. But so can I, and so can the many other Christians who don't share your particular interpretations.

 

Jesus came to fulfill the Law:

 

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

 

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

 

It goes on and on. The Bible was used to justify both sides of the slavery issue during the Civil War. Interestingly, there were two Methodist ministers arguing against each other at that time. Two men, with the same education, the same dogmatic beliefs, arguing for and against slavery. Scripture quotes galore.

 

I Believe. Oh Boy I Got It. Jesus died, was buried and He rose again yes...I accept. ... That intellectually mentally so I’m going to Heaven!

Paul said this gospel of the Death Burial and Resurrection will... Save you ...unless you have believed in Vein.

 

An empty mental ascent... Ya ... I Believe George Washington lived.

... Ya ... I Believe Jesus lived...Isn’t that enough.

 

How do we know our salvation is real or not?

When Its from the heart. Not the mind.

 

The Bible explains itself…

 

I understand that just believing that Jesus lived isn't enough. The point is, even though you KNOW that you are going to Heaven, the Bible says that you don't. Nobody does. Catholics believe that they are going to Heaven, and they have over a thousand years of bible study and apologetics to back up their position. Why are they wrong and you right? I am not tryingto get into the "True Christian" argument, because I know you think that you are a True Christian and they aren't, and that the Holy Spirit speaks to you and not them. The point is that they "know" just as deeply and with as little doubt as you have.

 

 

["Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

So god definitely wants us to be afraid of him. Can you love what you are afraid of?

Jesus speaks in parables specifically confuse people so they will go to hell. Why does Jesus want anyone to go to Hell? ]

 

SATAN IS THE DESTROYER AND CHRIST DIED TO SAVE US FROM...hated God want Him to have anything to do with his or her eteranal soul?

 

I edited for brevity's sake. God created Satan. SO God had to send His son to save us from something that He himself created, even though he could easily kill Satan outright.

 

["Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them"]

 

Parables are of the Spirit… Some will see and not understand what they see; some will hear and not understand what they hear, they may never realize through salvation their sins are forgiven. Note this mans freewill or own choice.

 

So clearly, you agree that Jesus wants some people to go to Hell, otherwise he would speak plainly.

 

The Bible repeats itself many times. We can compare books of like same verses and see they confirm one another. No scripture is of single interpretation but is supported by two or more like same scriptures.

 

Again, you can make the Bible say anything you want.

 

----It just keeps getting deeper and deeper and it takes years to study the Bible …

But it does explain itself…for every question of the verse your looking there is support and more information elsewhere.

 

Let me reiterate that I have no questions whatsoever in what the Bible says, nor am I confused in the least bit about what your belief system is. I do not reject the Bible because I don't understand it. I reject it BECAUSE I understand it.

 

The simplest to understand is the heart of the Bible; Salvation.

Children can understand it. Actually Jesus said come to me as a child believe as a child believes.

How does a child believe? A child does believe what it hears and does expect it.

 

God Bless*

 

Exactly. Children believe whatever you tell them. Hence them believing in Santa Claus. And the Easter bunny. And the Tooth Fairy. And loads and loads of silly things. But once they grow up, they learn (hopefully) to look for evidence for things, and don't believe anything someone tells them just because of who they are.

 

Have you read the Koran as earnestly as you have the Bible? I doubt it--and I don't blame you. But, you are a Christian mainly because you live in a Christian culture. You have no interest in the Koran because you understand that it is a book of fables that are essentially meaningless, and have nothing to do with god. Same for the Vedas, the Bhagvad Gita and all the rest. You reject all of these without the slightest hint of guilt or doubt simply by accident of birth. If you had been born in Iran you'd be a Muslim. If you'd been born 2,000 years ago in what is now Norway you'd worship Wodin and Thor. In Egypt, it would be Ra.

 

There is no possible way you could have the working knowledge of all the religions that you reject the way you do the one you accept, yet you reject without doubt. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, but I reject your religion the same way I reject all of the others. I don't have as good a working knowledge of the others, either, but why would I?

 

In order for scripture quotes to have any meaning, you have to first make the decision that the Bible is the word of god. Quoting WHAT you believe is not the same as describing WHY you believe it.

[Moai]

A quick way to soul salvation is "love God", before love God, should know who God is, what God did. When someone died for you in order to save you, you don't appreciate at all?

 

There is no evidence that anyone has died for me, least of all someone who may have lived 2,000 years ago. I know there is a book that makes that claim, but I am dubious as to its merits as evidence.

 

Jesus suffered so much before died on cross. come on, don't continually harden your heart like this. Did you see movie The Passion of the Christ? which prophecy died like him?

 

Yes, and it didn't move me. Lots of people were crucified, not just Jesus. And I am not sure what you mean by "which prophecy died like him". I would not say that my heart is hardened in the least. Is my heart hardened because I don't believe in Santa Claus? There is just as much evidence for both, and just as many outlandish claims. People don't rise from the dead after three days. Ever. You can claim magic if you want to, but I don't believe in magic. I don't see magic happening now, why would I believe in magic happening 2,000 years ago? There have been more people who have died more horribly than that since then, many of them in the name of Jesus. I have deep sympathy for them, but I don't think that I have anything to do with it.

 

nobody, why, because they are human being. Jesus willingly gave up his life, He could've escape, but He chose not to, why? because He want to save YOU, He want to obey God. God loves Jesus very much, but God planed all this, why? God love us too much, God want us to be like Jesus who is humble, love people, even forgave the people who crucified Him. wake up! Don't you know that Satan don't want you to see this truth? Don't you see that Satan only want to destroy you? Don't harden your heart like this.

 

IF your friend died for you, you don't feel anything?

 

My friend yes, Jesus no. If God loved me so much he wouldn't care what I believed. He wouldn't create a place of eternal torment just for people who think a certain way. And there is no way of knowing if Jesus wanted to save ME, as I could very well be one of the ones Jesus doesn't want.

 

You admonish me to wake up, I would suggest that you do the same. Do you really think that there is a being out there whose only purpose is to lead me astray and ruin me for eternity? This being was created by god, by the way.

 

Which raises an interesting point: Satan must know what Heaven is like, and what it is like to be around god. Yet he chose to disobey him. How can that be? And how can a god who is all-loving create a being who is evil--and allow said being to torment the rest of his creation? If he has seen and talked to god and seen Heaven, he must be retarded, right? Isn't Heaven perfect? Why leave somewhere that is perfect, unless you are too stupid to realize that its perfect.

[lonelybird]

Moai

You can keep all your rational reasoning. and I keep my irrational loving supernatural God. FAIR?

[burning 4 revenge]

Moai

You can keep all your rational reasoning. and I keep my irrational loving supernatural God. FAIR?

I like that comment. I think you make more sense with that comment than all of the most brilliant philosophers and scientists of all time.

 

Anyways Moai, why are you and Amerikajin trying to destroy the faith of the believers. Their faith makes them happy.

[lonelybird]

I like that comment. I think you make more sense with that comment than all of the most brilliant philosophers and scientists of all time.

 

Anyways Moai, why are you and Amerikajin trying to destroy the faith of the believers. Their faith makes them happy.

thanks

I guess I have Messiah-complex:o

Okay, Moai, Jesus still Loves you , one day you will see

[Love Hurts]

Just so you know -- the whole people judged by the fruit scale is ridiculous.

 

I am by no means limiting the response to just this - but this warrants immediate swift reply. :lmao:

 

"Fruits" in the biblical quotations above are ACTIONS.

 

As in by their actions or words you shall know them.

 

:lmao::lmao:

 

It does not go further to say some actions are "ripe" or "bruised", etc.

 

The analogy as far as fruit goes stops at the reference to actions.

 

But it was great to see your "spin" on it. Delightfully amusing and yet tragic and sad all at the same time.

 

You didn’t understand my friend. You must consider the scriptures and realize we are to be able to discern and judge others. The fruit scale was an analogy of; outward works show the inward man.