Struggling seven weeks later

[goodmom]

I have spent hours searching the internet for answers to my questions--what should I do, how should I feel. Right now I feel the need to put my story out there.

 

My husband and I have been married for twenty one years--two children, both teenagers. Things have never been great, but I was comfortable with okay. He wasn't. I found out seven weeks ago that he was having an affair with a woman he met through a local theatre group. He initiated the contact. I had sat down one evening to check my email and noticed that he had not signed off. I saw some suspicious subject lines in emails he had received and I read them. I became physically ill--very graphic about what they had done and what they were going to do. She had even sent him topless photos of herself. Nice. From what I could tell, their relationship had started sometime during the summer.

 

I waited two days to confront him. I wanted to make sure I had my wits about me and did not want to be hysterical. He became angry that I had "snooped" in his personal business. We waited two more days to talk. I should say he did the talking. He told me that I was good mom, but a bad wife. I had driven him to the affair because I had mistreated him for twenty odd years. I could go on and on.

 

I knew that things had been off for several months, and there were several signs that I had missed. He spent hours on the computer, mostly evening. He got a new cell phone that required a password and had the bill sent to his office. Dinner meetings. Going to the office on Saturday morning. Sex that made me feel dirty.

 

I know that I am not to blame for the affair, but I know that I am responsible for some of the problems in our relationship. I told him I was willing to do whatever it took to stay together. He agreed to stop seeing her (he told me I had to trust him on that) and he agreed to go to counseling with me.

 

For the past few weeks we have been in the honeymoon phase. I know it is part of the process of reconnecting. Both of us are really trying, or so I thought.

 

I can no longer check his email because he has it password protected. I did check his last sites visited and found that the other woman sent him an internet Thanksgiving card that said she was thankful to have him in her life. I also found out today that he is going to counseling--without me.

 

I have not told another soul about this. I am drowning here.

[Ladyjane14]

Awwww, hon. That's rough.

 

First things first, there are a alot of books on the market concerning Infidelity. A good start would be Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley, Divorce Busting By Michelle Weiner Davis, and Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.

 

A couple of titles that will help you to identify problem areas in the marriage and begin addressing ENs (emotional needs) would be The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and His Needs / Her Needs by Harley.

 

Most of these authors have websites. You'll want to pay special attention to the Basic Concepts section at marriagebuilders, as well as the HT Survive Infidelity information. Read all the articles as well.

 

Your husband is calling the shots right now... and I have to be honest, I think you're going to see a continuation of the affair. Here's a Dr. Philism for you... "People with nothing to hide, hide nothing".

 

There are two likely reasons for him to continue password protection of email and cell phones... One, he's still in contact with the OW. Two, he's fearful of reprisal and punishment so he's unwilling to allow you any control over his life.

 

Recovery isn't possible without honesty. He's going to need to EARN your trust again. Complete transparency and living life as an 'open book' is a good start toward that. It could be that he's not quite ready to recommit himself. It could also be that he's playing you. Time will tell.

 

I don't think this guy's on the level yet, so keep your peepers open.

[Sup]

This guy is bullcraping you, install a good keylogger on the computer, that'll even show passwords, I think. Contact a good lawyer and see what YOUR rights are, chances are you'll end up with the house, and a whole LOT of his money, just keep EVEYTHING quite while you do this, No one has to take that kind of crap! REMEMBER, not a word to your husband about this, or this site, make sure that he can't backtrack to this site, ok?

[goodmom]

Thank you for your support and wisdom. I think I have a lot to figure out.

[Romeo Must Die]

www.survivinginfidelity.com

 

There are alot of BW here ^^^ who can help you through this.

 

Do as much reading as you can about affairs.

 

The bad wife comments are routine, par for the course. Dont take it to heart. Your WS just doesnt want to accept any of the guilt for what he has done. After 20 years, you know that THAT is not true. Happy Thanksgiving to the biggest TURKEY of them all, the WS!

 

Right now, I would be really careful with your WS right now. You are doing really great for thinking without reacting first. It just makes them go deeper underground. It hardly will end just like that. They are naturally going to be more careful.

 

The holidays are a major emotional trigger so keep your cool and play the happy family to your best ability. If you have to cry or scream, come here and talk to us and we'll help you through things.

 

Be prepared for multiple D-Days (any and all new revelations about the affair) and get ready for a lot of lying, manipulating and mental warfare. Read books on how to deal with difficult people. He is a stranger to you now. He looks like DH, talks like DH, but right now, he is not your DH. He is a zombie just going through the motions of DH and he is living in his own little world where only he and OW exist. You will do well to remember that.

 

Install a keylogger on the computer to retrieve his email passwords. You can buy them at best buy or download the software from the internet. If you can get inside his office (lunch is a perfect opportunity) I would look for copies of that cell phone bill in his desk. Things that look out of the ordinary, missing checks, get records from the bank. Put a mini digital tape recorder in his car where he absolutely will not find it. Does he run a lot of unusual errrands, wear his best outfit to Home Depot? Keep an close eye on him. Also, trash bins are also excellent source of discarded information, credit card receipts. Love notes. etc. etc. etc. Its a dirty job playing a detective, but patience and perserverance always pays off in the end.

 

I'm concerned your WS might be in what is called an "exit affair" and considering the age of your children and the length of your marriage, may (or may not) be planning to leave you when the teens are old enough to handle it. You would be suprised what your WS is really capable of, don't put anything past them. He may be taking money and hiding assets, too. Get copies of bank records and vehicle titles and put some money and a new, secured credit card away for a rainy day.

 

Peace, Love and Hugs

 

[jmargel]

http://files.brothersoft.com/freeware/keylogger.zip

 

Is a good keylogger. Thing is, unless you purchase it, it doesn't run in hidden mode right away when you boot your system up.

 

However he's not being clean with you. Him not giving you his PW to his account to his email or phone is a sign. Him going to counseling by himself is actually good, don't assume the worst on that.

 

In counseling I would bring up not having the pw to his email. Though it would be easy for him to create a new one. Trust is earned and by him saying 'You just have to trust me', he's just not getting it. You two have major communication issues and what he's doing is not helping things.

 

He should be accountable for all his whereabouts. If he starts making you feel like your nuts or saying stuff like 'Your crazy, your paranoid, I have no contact with her', even though red flags are still appearing.. Well then, he's still cheating.

[goodmom]

I have checked into a keylogging program. I think that is my best defense right now--to gather as much information as I can.

 

It just keeps getting better and better. Guess who referred him to the counselor he is seeing--the OW!

[Ladyjane14]

It just keeps getting better and better. Guess who referred him to the counselor he is seeing--the OW!

 

Hmmm... I don't like the sound of that. Is this a separate counselor than the one you two are seeing together for marriage counseling?

 

 

 

Anyway, I have a couple of threads for you to read. The original poster is a guy in his early forty's who came to LS initially while in the midst of a full-blown affair. Shortly after he arrived, the OW outed him to his wife. He realized that he still loved his wife very much, and decided to work at reconciling the marriage.

 

I haven't seen him around lately. He's taken a break from posting apparently. But I think there might be enough in common between him and your husband so that his experience may be valuable to you.

 

Here are his threads:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t94408/

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t99937/

 

These are long, and obviously not everything in them is going to apply to you. So bear that in mind as you read through.

 

I think there are two important points for you to identify:

 

The first being the effects of unresolved resentment. The OP has a VERY difficult time putting old resentments aside. Despite the fact that he's desirous of repairing the relationship, he's not getting enough positive feedback from his betrayed spouse to keep him from becoming discouraged and at times even overwrought.

 

He feels that the inherent problems within the marriage are overshadowed by his infidelity, and he has a hard time believing that his concerns will EVER be addressed. I can't really blame him for that.

Although we only see the one perspective, he wasn't able to offer us a whole lot in the way of hope that his wife would eventually engage him.

 

The second thing you'll want to look for is fear of reprisal. The OP shows lots of signs of anxiety. Even a WS (wayward spouse) who is earnest in his desire for reconciliation is often overcome by the idea that he can NEVER truly be forgiven or accepted again by his betrayed partner.

 

Our OP worries that he'll never 'get out of doghouse'. He worries that he'll never regain respect and equality in the relationship. Again... I can't fault him for it. He wouldn't be the first WS whose partner couldn't forgive him.

 

Your man seems VERY MUCH on the fence right now. He's seeing a counselor recommended by the OW, and yet he's giving you indicators that he's willing to work on the marriage. He's refusing to yield control over the affair to you, and yet has agreed to stop seeing her.

 

Something's going on.

And it's got to be either inner conflict or subterfuge.

 

Twenty-one years of marriage, would put him at an age where midlife issues can cause depression and other chemical imbalances. The male body seems to crave for the dopamine band-aid at this age. The little red sports car, the extramarital fling, the Burt Reynolds haircut, and all those other cliches are just too common not to have some basis in physiology if you ask me.

 

All in all, the midlife crisis can cause an unpredictable element. The MLC guy is shaky. He's not too sure what he wants, but he IS ready to butt heads in order to get it.

 

Ordinarily, I would recommend VERY MUCH the same things that Romeo has recommended in the way of snooping. But I feel like I need to caution you.... if you go through with it, DO NOT GET CAUGHT. I'm afraid it wouldn't take much of a push to put him on the other side of that fence right now.

 

On the one hand, you can't fight what you can't see. But on the other... you've already got him red-handed. My temptation here is to 'go against the grain' and tell you NOT to do anymore snooping, but rather to create an atmosphere of trust... at least on your end anyway.

 

You're the 'man on the ground', so it's your decision. I'm not sure what there is to be gained (or lost) by learning more. i.e. If it could affect a divorce scenario due to the laws in your particular state, then gathering more evidence could certainly be something to think about.

 

But if you can't think of REALLY good reasons to do more snooping, and if you're first priority is saving the marriage... I don't know that it's worth it.

 

You have a choice here in deciding how you're going to treat this problem. Are you going to treat it like you're dealing with your mate's "inner conflict"? Or are you going to treat it like you're dealing with "subterfuge"?

 

And in weighing this decision, what do you have at risk? What can't you afford to lose?

 

Here's a Dr. Philism I like... Your partner should be your "soft place to fall", meaning you should feel safe and comforted in the presence of your mate, right?

 

For the past little while, your husband's "soft place to fall" has been OW. The only effective way to put an OW out of business is.... to PUT HER OUT OF BUSINESS.

 

You can't do that from an adversarial position. And while you want to make sure that you're covering all the issues, you also want to make sure that you're working together as a TEAM while you're doing it.

[Ripples]

LJ, what a great post! That's made me see things very differently in my own circumstances.

 

GoodMom, I hope it helps you too, I'm sure it will. I can't add anything of any value, except (((hugs)))

 

[StacyLady]

There are great tips on how to catch a cheater and lots of infidelity articles and advice at http://www.womansavers.com

 

I would also suggest some couples counseling if you don't think your marriage is irrepairable.

 

Good luck.

[goodmom]

I am overwhelmed by the responses to my post. Thank you so much for your support.

[Ladyjane14]

I hope you'll keep us posted on how you're doing, Goodmom.

 

 

 

(Thanks for the kind words, Ripples. )

[goodmom]

Is it fair to expect me to make all the changes, to give him a safe place to fall? Shouldn't I feel that from him? I am having hard time with this. The past day or so, I feel like he is baiting me--waiting for me to fail.

 

I have really tried to be more open with myself--sending him emails, text messages. Everytime the phone rings at work, I hope it is him, calling to check up on me. Of course, it never is. He said he is too busy. I bet he was never to busy for the OW. I know she got emails and text messages.

 

One big issue with us the past year or so has been my job. I have worked part-time (30 hours per week) for the past eight years. He started on me several months ago about working full-time. He was tired of carrying the full financial burden. He actually went so far as to find me a job. I never pursued it because I love the job I have now. It has been a perfect job for someone who has a family. Several weeks ago I started working 35 hours per week. Still not full-time. Two days ago, he hit me with another job opening (an office he used to work at), and I have to give him an answer tomorrow. I am setting myself up to fail if I don't take the job? Or do I stay where I feel safe right now. Or will I ever feel safe again, anywhere?

[Ladyjane14]

It's not necessary to jump through those kind of hoops. Goodmom. He's the guy who cheated. He's lucky your lawyer isn't bending him over right now.

 

You should keep the job you like. Plus that, you'll get more at settlement if you have a history of part-time work should you eventually decide to proceed with divorce.

 

Not to scare you, but sometimes when a cheater has an exit strategy, they like to get their spouse set up as independantly as possible.

 

If it was me.... I'd probably be too emotionally distraught to work any job at all.

Bet he'd stop maneuvering for a 40-hour week after a month or two of that.

[goodmom]

I tried the emotionally distraught route. He told me it was time I started thinking about someone other than myself.

 

We have gone from the "hysterical bonding" phase to a really ugly phase in just a week. There is absolutely NO remorse for what happened. Everything I do or say is thrown back in my face. Is he feeling guilt for what happened, or making both of us so miserable that one of us finally says, Enough!

 

I think I see where this is headed and I am very afraid.

[jmargel]

Goodmom.. I get the feeling by his continued actions that he is still having contact with this other woman. Him making demands, critizing you, making it look like your fault is a way for him to relieve his guilt on what he's doing. He's making YOU pay for what HE is doing.

 

Continue this route and you'll go insane. You need to take that ball and put it in your court and layout the ground rules if he wants to stay in this marriage. Trust me, I was there. My wife would lay these 'blanket statements' about me, and really push me hard making it seem like I was the one to blame in this marriage while she was off lying and visiting someone else. She had me so convinced that not only I was destroying the marriage, but that I was 'crazy' or 'paranoid' that I would think she was doing something behind my back. It took 2 psychologists to make me realize what she was doing.

 

The best defense is a strong offense. As long as he has you on the defensive he doesn't need to deal with the reason why he's cheated or continues too. You are falling for his ploy and you need to stop this.

 

Taking care of two teenages is a full time job in itself. IMO 30 hours of working on top of that is plenty. The issue is not whether you are working, 30, 35 or 40 hours. Its about his disloyality, lying and disrespect for you and your children. Unless these issues are addressed (with a marriage counselor) things will continue to get worse. Show some tough love, stop begging and crying for his attention. It just gives him more power.

 

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

 

Read that definition a couple of times.

[goodmom]

There is no question that he is baiting me, and I am so tired, worn out and emotionally distraught that I am playing right into it. I hear myself apologizing and whining -- and -- begging.

 

I think I need to keep myself busy this weekend. If he wants me, he can come and find me.

[Ladyjane14]

I tried the emotionally distraught route. He told me it was time I started thinking about someone other than myself.

 

We have gone from the "hysterical bonding" phase to a really ugly phase in just a week. There is absolutely NO remorse for what happened. Everything I do or say is thrown back in my face. Is he feeling guilt for what happened, or making both of us so miserable that one of us finally says, Enough!

 

I think I see where this is headed and I am very afraid.

 

Honey, I have no doubt that he's "baiting" you right now. He WANTS an excuse to return to his affair. He's gonna rattle your cage trying to find a way to justify that.

 

There's two possibilities here:

 

One, as Jmargel has suggested... the affair is still underway. In that case, there might be a cooling-off period as the affair partners attempt to hide it better. But in essence, the affair is still rationalized in your husband's mind as being an okay thing to do. Thus, the lack of remorse.

 

The second possibility is that the affair has indeed ended, and your husband is experiencing a period of Withdrawal. Adulterers are like addicts. They're hooked on the feel-good chemicals their body's produce in reaction to their Infatuation. If your husband is out of contact with OW... he's not getting his "fix". He'll be pissed off and crabby about that.... and blaming YOU. Which leads us back to a lack of visible remorse.

 

I know you're scared, honey.... but I want you to understand that even if you're feeling shaky right now... you ARE in the driver's seat.

 

Your husband put the ball in your court by cheating on you. You are well within your rights, both legally and morally, to end the marriage AT WILL. I have to tell you that even though I'm sharing what I know about reconcilliation, I myself, would more than likely do just that.

 

If my husband was willing to bet my life and my health, and if he was willing to wager the future of our family, on the strength of a condom... I'd be disgusted enough to never want to clap eyes on him again.

 

So, you need to first and foremost make a decision on how much bullsh*t you're willing to take off your WH (wayward husband). Do you really even want to continue on in the marriage? He's presented you with a great 'out'... it's there for the taking.

 

I say all that because sometimes the knee-jerk reaction is to try to repair the marriage at all costs. But the emotional cost to you, the betrayed wife, can potentially be quite high, and you don't have any guarantees. So think it over, okay?

 

 

Anyway, a cheater lives in 'the fog'. His view is distorted. If he has a history of being a fairly upstanding guy.... he's had to do a whole lot of juggling with his conscience in order to give himself permission to do something he clearly knows is wrong. A mindset like that isn't going to clear itself up overnight.

 

I think one of the best things you can do right now is to try to figure out what kind of cheater you're dealing with. I think it'll help you key into his current thought pattern.

 

Is he an ordinarily nice guy, who's behaving in a way that's out of character? Has he been experiencing bouts of anger, sadness, or lethargy over the past few years? Is it normal for him to be self-centered and unsympathetic to others, or is his recent behavior an aberration?

 

Here's another thread for you to read. Overall, it's a pretty good read and it'll help you start thinking about emotional needs. But what I'd like for you to look for is something else....

 

If you read H2T's threads, you've seen an example of one kind of cheater. On the back couple of pages of this other thread, you'll see a DIFFERENT kind. One who lacks remorse and is so filled with resentment he doesn't show any ability to empathize with his betrayed wife whatsoever.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t105856/

 

Finally, in addressing your fear... I'd like for you to try to look at your situation in another way.

 

The marriage you knew before is OVER. It's gone. It can't ever return. And even if it could, would you really truly want it to?

 

You're in a position right now in which you and your husband will either start a NEW DEAL, something better than what you had before... or you'll end the marriage altogether. Either way, you are no longer enslaved in a relationship that falls short of the loving support you each needed before.

 

This thought helped me soooo much when I was going through my own marriage crisis. When I accepted that the old marriage was over... I had no place to go but UP. I'd either wind up in a better relationship with the husband I had, or I'd have the FREEDOM to make out of my life whatever I most wanted next. Either way... I was gonna be a winner.

 

Once the fear dissapated, and I made my choice to try for a NEW DEAL... I was able to concentrate more fully on the changes I needed to make within myself. Even better, I was also finally able to set the boundaries with my husband that were essential to my willingness to remain in the reconcilliation process. Since I had already let go of the old marriage emotionally... I had nothing to left to lose.

 

You can't change your husband, Goodmom. Nothing you do will "change" him. You can only make your own choices. So, while you can establish the parameters that will ease his path back to you, you are powerless to make the final choice FOR HIM.

 

Weirdly enough, accepting that you are powerless over another person, can liberate you from some of your worries and stress. It frees you to concentrate on the things you CAN control. You can let go of the other guy's problems and let him carry his own bags, knowing that his choices are out of your hands.

[goodmom]

I know I am obssessing today. I can't concentrate on anything but my own misery.

 

I know in my gut my husband has made a decision that does not include me. He went away over the Thanksgiving holiday with a friend and things have been spiraling out of control since he got back. Oh, sure, we had the obligatory "I missed you so much" for a day or two. I think his plan is to beat me down and make us both so miserable that he leaves. No remorse, no responsibility for the affair.

 

He was going to counseling (without me), but has not had an appointment since he got back from his trip. I am sure he does not want to listen to what the counselor has to say.

[BeenAround_N_Back]

.

 

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

 

 

 

I agree... he is not going to come back and stop what he is doing if nothing changes..... it is going to be scary and I have no doubt you are afraid... But aren't you teaching your kids that this is ok if you stay and take it? What about your emtional stability? he has been more than selfish. Good luck!

[goodmom]

Ladyjane, we must have been typing at the same time. Thank you so much for your post. It made me cry.

 

Maybe that is what I am feeling right now, a sense of mourning for the life I thought I had. But right now he does not seem willing to want to make a new life.

 

Twenty two years ago I thought he was the best person I have ever met. Smart, confident, wise beyond his years. Maybe he is mourning that person, too.

[Ladyjane14]

I know I am obssessing today. I can't concentrate on anything but my own misery.

 

I know in my gut my husband has made a decision that does not include me. He went away over the Thanksgiving holiday with a friend and things have been spiraling out of control since he got back. Oh, sure, we had the obligatory "I missed you so much" for a day or two. I think his plan is to beat me down and make us both so miserable that he leaves. No remorse, no responsibility for the affair.

 

He was going to counseling (without me), but has not had an appointment since he got back from his trip. I am sure he does not want to listen to what the counselor has to say.

 

We were posting at the same time, Goodmom. I had some thoughts above on how to get a handle on that fear. But I wanted to add... that this is a process. There's usually a good deal of back and forth going on as the WS tries to figure out what he's willing to part with. Once he's busted, he can't keep all that he had.... two women providing his ENs.

 

Nothing is set in stone yet. So, even if he brings you a decision.... it's not necessarily a final one.

 

Hang in there.

[Ladyjane14]

Maybe that is what I am feeling right now, a sense of mourning for the life I thought I had. But right now he does not seem willing to want to make a new life.

 

Twenty two years ago I thought he was the best person I have ever met. Smart, confident, wise beyond his years. Maybe he is mourning that person, too.

 

I know what you mean.

 

On the day I found out about my husband's inappropriate activities, I saw an attorney... and then demanded a divorce.

 

I was too sad to even cry about it.

 

I felt like I'd wasted over TWO DECADES of my life on a person I didn't even know. He was like a stranger to me. Unpredictable. Hostile.

 

And Lord help me, I was even kind of scared of him.

When I told him that I was divorcing him and I'd already seen an attorney... I had my shoes on my feet, my cell phone and car keys in my pocket, and kept myself close enough to the door so I'd be able to get out it before he could catch me.

 

This man has NEVER made a violent move toward me. Not one in over 20 years. But I just didn't know him anymore.

 

I have to say, to his credit... it made him weep to know he'd scared me so. And even though on some level he knew he'd been 'out-of-control' at times during the previous months, it had all made perfect sense to him at the time.

 

These days, he can't identify at all with the person he had become, or the thought process that led him there.

 

Once "the fog" lifts, the WS (wayward spouse) is often just as befuddled as his betrayed spouse when it comes to understanding why he behaved the way he did. It all depends on what kind of man he is underneath it all.

[jmargel]

Below is the 5 stages of grief. However you are at the worst spot possible since he is still living with you and continuing his behavior, so you really can't get through all these stages.

 

You two need marriage counseling, fast. That's if, if you want to save the marriage. I have a feeling you have put your own self-worth into your husband. You lost who you are. Everything you had you put into him and when he failed, you felt failure.

 

The five stages of grief are:

 

 

1-Denial-"this can't be happening to me", looking for the former spouse in familia places, or if it is death, setting the table for the person or acting as if they are still in living there. No crying. Not accepting or even acknowledging the loss.

 

 

2-Anger-"why me?", feelings of wanting to fight back or get even with spouse of divorce, for death, anger at the deceased, blaming them for leaving.

 

 

3-Bargaining-bargaining often takes place before the loss. Attempting to make deals with the spouse who is leaving, or attempting to make deals with God to stop or change the loss. Begging, wishing, praying for them to come back.

 

 

4-Depression-overwhelming feelings of hopelessness, frustration, bitterness, self pity, mourning loss of person as well as the hopes, dreams and plans for the future. Feeling lack of control, feeling numb. Perhaps feeling suicidal.

 

 

5-Acceptance-there is a difference between resignation and acceptance. You have to accept the loss, not just try to bear it quietly. Realization that it takes two to make or break a marriage. Realization that the person is gone (in death) that it is not their fault, they didn't leave you on purpose. (even in cases of suicide, often the deceased person, was not in their right frame of mind) Finding the good that can come out of the pain of loss, finding comfort and healing. Our goals turn toward personal growth. Stay with fond memories of person.

[Romeo Must Die]

Alot of WS's will force the BS to divorce (so WS don't have to be the bad guy) even though they facilitate the need for divorce by having an affair.

 

You cant force him to do anything, it's futile. They wont fix whats wrong because their choice is to chase his ow tail instead. He isnt hurting like you hurt and as long as you or the teens never find out about it, he doesnt have to deal with it. WS is having a good time at our expense and they can keep this affair going for years. The lies get easier the more they lie. My husbands affair was three years long. It was discovered after one year (after alot of denying it), then we seperated for the second year and then we had a rocky (rocky) reconcilliation the third year, when he was off and on again with his OW.

 

As far as appealing to WS emotionally, please try to understand that WS are *disconected* from their BW. You can not appeal to their emotions or expect them to value the same things that you do. Talking to a WS is like talking to a cop, they dont have the same emotional concerns you do. I used to train myself into thinking I was talking to OW's boyfriend when he came to pick up the kids when we were seperated. I put my concerns first and stopped worrying if he had any concerns for me. Thats when he started chasing me again.