To OW - What would you ask the W?

I had to drive MM's W to a function (don't ask - long story but in car together for 45 min. and at function for 3 hours without MM being present). W detailed what an a$$ MM was being and could be, how controlling he could be, demanding, etc, etc. The day before, I spoke to his daughter (doing internship at our office) and she was telling me some stories about her father being a jerk and how much he can be a real embarassment to her for how he acts and how Mom & Dad act together/fight in public etc. Now, keep in mind I have known family for years so I have heard many of these stories before.

I started to think about many of the OW here and how they are being destroyed by NC and the longing to have MM to themselves/in their lives at all costs. How many OW really feel they really KNOW MM? I mean KNOW how MM is at home, in his life, in his interactions with others - not just the MM that the OW gets to see. How many, if given the chance, would want to hear W's version of what MM is REALLY like at home? What would you want to know from W and what difference would it make to how you handle things with MM? Or how many think that it would not matter, they could change MM if he chose them to share his life with?

For me, knowing how he is in everyday life with his W and family (not just with me) helps keep perspective on our relationship and helps keep me from idealizing and fantasizing about a relationship that simply would not exist!

I think that OW and xOW (including myself) think that the mm will be different in their company.

They think that he acts like a jerk at home because he is not happy at there and it would be different if he left to be with them (OW).

I think the OW thinks that if mm is with her then all the mm troubles will go away and he will be blissfully happy. I am not talking about the abusive mm here who treats everyone like real crap and is serially manipulative and cruel.

Trouble is that if the mm leaves he will always have an obligation (and rightly so) to the family he walks out on, and this will affect and infringe on his relationship with the OW.

It is not as if the OW can just sweep his earlier life under the carpet and start with a clean slate.

That said, most OW would rather be in an exclusive relationship with the mm and want him to leave so that the relationship is open and honest even if headed for choppy waters.

My MM's W is always putting him down in public and speaking badly of him to everyone - including people she's just meeting, but who work in the same field as the three of us - so I have a pretty good idea of what she'd say! I've also seen emails and cards she's sent him and have a reasonable idea of what she thinks of him. It says a lot more about her than about him...

I'm pretty realistic about how he is - and what would likely be the sticking points living together full-time, permanently. He's far more starry-eyed about me, maybe just in comparison to his W - but it does concern me because if he thinks he's getting an angel, he's in for a nasty shock!

I don't think I have any Qs I would like to MM's W. I know I can easily ask her back then but I doubt she would answer my Qs honestly. She put down MM a lot of times on her past emails and I came to know the truth from his mother and sister that the things MM's W said are not true. Most of the time when they were together, she'd leave the kids behind with him to go out which I don't really see anything wrong in that because she probably needed the time alone anyway but I just don't agree with her putting him down (saying things like he didn't do anything around the house etc) because he did not and still hasn't said anything bad about his W.

Come to think of it, if I had the chance I would ask MM's W why the need to put him down constantly to a stranger?

Most MM are different in the company of OW...that is what I mean. But being differernt in the temporary company of the OW and changing their ways once the OW becomes the SO are wo different things. Why do we believe that our relationships with MM would be any different than the relationships they currently have unless we believe that the MM is perfect and the W/family are the whole source of his unhappiness. While that may be true in some instances, there is a whole other side of the MM that we never see and that would still be there, even if he left his W. Judging from the number of MM that actually leave their W's versus the number who fight to stay with their W, I am guessing most OW realize that the MM only gives us a small portion of the big picture situation.

My MM and I have been friends for years and I love the relationship we have. I know he is a good father and I know he does everything for his wife and loves her as well. However, I know that there are some things about him that nobody could change because it is how he chooses to be and how he is. Knowing this, I know that I would not be happy to be his W/SO.....while I love our friendship and am having a hard time ending the A I would also not want to be his W because I KNOW how he is and know that some things wouldn't change in him no matter WHO the SO was.

Most OW would rather be in an exclusive relatonship with MM so that the relationship can be open and honest......perhaps,but most OW also believe what MM tells her to be the source of why the MM are in the A to begin with. I think there is so much more that the OW doesn't know/doesn't get to see that would change her views of the MM and her perspective on the R. It doesn't mean she would love MM less or want to end the A, just that maybe she would be more realistic about who the MM really is and what kind of life partner he would really make. Not all OW want MM to leave the M and the W...and to me the more you know about the real situation of the MM and the M itself, the easier it would be to be objective about the R and expectations/wants you have. Doesn't mean it makes its easier to leave the A but at least you don't idolize the MM as much and have unrealistic ideas about how wonderful your life with him would be.

The W putting the MM down to strangers (or anyone) is definitely not good and, IMO, a big red flag that no one is happy! But I also know that putting down anyone repeatedly is a sign that there is ongoing, constant discontent and that can't be all one sided in the making......I will never understand when two people are this unhappy WHY they choose to stay together. There is no reason good enough in my mind to make you want to hold on to someone who you are completely miserable with....Maybe that would be the question to the W in that case, If you put him down so much, why do you stay? I have yet to see any W answer that here but I know its been asked (for the kids and money just don't count in my books............)

Most MM are different in the company of OW...that is what I mean. But being differernt in the temporary company of the OW and changing their ways once the OW becomes the SO are wo different things.

My MM and I spend protracted time together, and there are times he slips into habits he's formed around his W - like always apologising for everything, even when it's not his fault or nothing to do with him, because she always blames him for everything and attacks him and makes it his fault, so it's easier for him just to say sorry and try to keep the peace. That doesn't work for me, and I call him on it, and then we talk about it and he realises he's slipped into W-mode and pulls himself out of it again. But I know after all these years with her that's become a habit, he's going to keep doing it, and I'm going to have to deal with that. But it's no biggie - we both know where that stuff comes from, and why, and we're both prepared to work at things.

i was an other woman an didn't know it. when i spoke to his wife the first couple of times it was interesting and therapuetic for both of us.

we were able to piece together a truer picture of not only the affair but what he was really like. in her life it was reality-dealing with kids, financial issues etc. in my life he got to talk about his dreams.

it also lead us to talk about physical attraction. she was amazed that i was not a 20 something model. i am actually 7 years older than her, and while i consider myself fairly attractive, definitely not a model. she was dealing with her doubts about post baby weight (they have a 15 month old son) and always thought that if he had an affair it would be about physical attraction. it was not. while there was plenty of physical attraction, the affair was not about sex. i think it was about him being allowed to explore an idealized life where he had no commitments or pressures.

i wish i had asked her about the problems they had had leading up to their separation. i also wished i had asked more questions about how they had met. she mentioned that he was not divorced from wife #1 when they met, but it had been "over for some time". i am really curious about the pattern of leaving one commited (?) relationship for another. but this really is just curiosity. i wouldn't help me move on. i don't know why, but all the other stuff did.

i asked her not to call me again because i need to put this in the past. i don't know why, but we both felt very sad about that. it's not like we could be friends--not that we're enemies. we were just curiously sad.

I had to drive MM's W to a function (don't ask - long story but in car together for 45 min. and at function for 3 hours without MM being present). W detailed what an a$$ MM was being and could be, how controlling he could be, demanding, etc, etc. The day before, I spoke to his daughter (doing internship at our office) and she was telling me some stories about her father being a jerk and how much he can be a real embarassment to her for how he acts and how Mom & Dad act together/fight in public etc. Now, keep in mind I have known family for years so I have heard many of these stories before.

 

I started to think about many of the OW here and how they are being destroyed by NC and the longing to have MM to themselves/in their lives at all costs. How many OW really feel they really KNOW MM? I mean KNOW how MM is at home, in his life, in his interactions with others - not just the MM that the OW gets to see. How many, if given the chance, would want to hear W's version of what MM is REALLY like at home? What would you want to know from W and what difference would it make to how you handle things with MM? Or how many think that it would not matter, they could change MM if he chose them to share his life with?

 

For me, knowing how he is in everyday life with his W and family (not just with me) helps keep perspective on our relationship and helps keep me from idealizing and fantasizing about a relationship that simply would not exist!

Having a close enough relationship with the MM's family (where they divulge initimate information) sounds pretty sick and twisted to me.

we were able to piece together a truer picture of not only the affair but what he was really like. in her life it was reality-dealing with kids, financial issues etc. in my life he got to talk about his dreams.

That's exactly what I mean.....a lot of the time our relationships with our MM are based on what COULD BE and not what would be or is. I think MM do love the OW and vice versa but sometimes we love what we think the other person is or will be instead of a true picture. We love the ideal not the reality. The W lives the reality of that life everyday and we rarely get to glimpse that...we only hear the MM's version of how unhappy he is or what is missing from his life but we really don't know the whys of it. I'm sure there are many instances where the W is completely miserable and unhappy and that causes the MM to be as well.......but it still doesn't answer why they stay and even fight for the M after D-Day? It just makes that question even more confusing. I know my MM will never leave his M no matter how bad things get...she will leave first but she will ALWAYS come back (she always has) because he will go get her - and she expects as much! He will shower her with gifts and trips and she will return.... it would not matter how many A's, how many fights, etc. etc......nothing ever changes but neither will ever leave for good.

Minerva I'm so sorry you got deceived by your MM but it sounds like you are healing and moving on. For many of us, we already know the MM is in a M and we fall for them anyway (for all sorts of reasons). For many of the posters, they seem to believe MM that the W is the abusive, disfunctional party of the M and that is why they cannot be fully happy. The OW seems to believe this despite the fact that our MM don't leave their M (not for the OW but for themselves....in order to be happy). When the MM do leave for the OW, I question how many of the OW end up happy with the outcome. They get the man but is it the man they thought MM was or is it someone else that gets exposed once the relationship is allowed to be open and public?

Having a close enough relationship with the MM's family (where they divulge initimate information) sounds pretty sick and twisted to me.

Trust me when I say I would not willingly be in the situation and try very hard to avoid any situations where these things happen. The situation is the way it is because we were friends for so many years BEFORE the A began and I am trying vey hard to end the A.

As much as I think its awkward at times to be in touch with W and family, I also think it helps me know the real MM.....not just the person he may WANT an OW to think he is. I am not 'friends' with the W and probably never would be regardless of the MM as we are the exact opposites as far as personalities go but I also would not put her down or be jealous of her life.........MM may be my friend and I may have strong feelings for him and our relationship but she really has no prize in her H. He makes a great friend but a lousy H (IMO).

Having a close enough relationship with the MM's family (where they divulge initimate information) sounds pretty sick and twisted to me.

 

Trust me when I say I would not willingly be in the situation and try very hard to avoid any situations where these things happen. The situation is the way it is because we were friends for so many years BEFORE the A began and I am trying vey hard to end the A.

 

As much as I think its awkward at times to be in touch with W and family, I also think it helps me know the real MM.....not just the person he may WANT an OW to think he is. I am not 'friends' with the W and probably never would be regardless of the MM as we are the exact opposites as far as personalities go but I also would not put her down or be jealous of her life.........MM may be my friend and I may have strong feelings for him and our relationship but she really has no prize in her H. He makes a great friend but a lousy H (IMO).

I see you are really struggling to come up with reasons to end it, just the drive for this man is still too strong, huh?

It must be difficult for you then because you've always been a family friend.

Katanya,

neither really healed or moved on at this point. just having a better moment.

who knows, in a couple or hours (or minutes) i could be a wreck.

but thanks again for your posts. i enjoy reading them.

I see you are really struggling to come up with reasons to end it, just the drive for this man is still too strong, huh?

It must be difficult for you then because you've always been a family friend.

I don't think I've given any reasons in this post why I should or shouldn't (would or wouldn't) end it......that's a whole other post. But if it makes you feel better to know, for all intents and purposes, I am the one who initiated the A to be over and it is re-establishing boundaries of the friendship that I am trying to work on to see if that can be or not. Of course it is difficult because there was a PA/EA but we were friends before that and I am hoping we will continue to be friends now. We both seem to feel that this can be and we both seem to want to continue to be friends so we will see........ I know the A could go on and on but I really don't want that for either of us. For my own reasons, and because I really do see MM as my friend, I can take losing the A but not our friendship.

And I would not say I am a 'family friend'...I know his family and they know me but I am not friends with the family. MM is my friend and he is close to my family (being my children). I know his children and W and they all know that we are friends....hence their comfort to discuss MM and their issues about him. I do not encourage that or put myself in situations where that will happen usually. That is not so much because of the A but because he is my friend and, like any friendship, you do not want to be put 'in the middle'...if a spouse of any of my other friends came to me and started complaining about my friend I would feel the same way ---keep me out of it! But, having said that, this is the point of my original post ---knowing the whole story (both sides of the situation) makes it easier to be realistic about what 'life' would be like with MM......you get more than the MM's take on things and it makes you more realistic about the 'real' person that the MM is. The fantasy some OW have that their MM is amazing and the 'ultimate' man would be put into perspective if they had the 'whole' story. And, for me, if I did not know MM's wife, I would believe the same things others believe....that W is difficult, does not try, is demanding and abusive, does not want sex, etc. etc. etc. because that's what MM tell OW. I'm not say MM's wife is perfect, she has her own issues, but it is very much a two sided street in their relationship. Even knowing what I know about MM and his life, I still have the same question for W......why would she stay? I've already heard her answer but it just doesnt make sense to me. I have asked him the same question and their answers are exactly the same.

Originally Posted by KATANYA

Most MM are different in the company of OW...that is what I mean. But being differernt in the temporary company of the OW and changing their ways once the OW becomes the SO are wo different things.

(That is so true. I think when he started feeling i wanted more, he might have thought about it as well. he did say something once to me like "you'd probably be worse than she is!" and that might have been his wake up call not to be drawn into it any longer, and that's maybe when things started to change....)

Trust me when I say I would not willingly be in the situation and try very hard to avoid any situations where these things happen. The situation is the way it is because we were friends for so many years BEFORE the A began and I am trying vey hard to end the A.

As much as I think its awkward at times to be in touch with W and family, I also think it helps me know the real MM.....not just the person he may WANT an OW to think he is. I am not 'friends' with the W and probably never would be regardless of the MM as we are the exact opposites as far as personalities go but I also would not put her down or be jealous of her life.........MM may be my friend and I may have strong feelings for him and our relationship but she really has no prize in her H. He makes a great friend but a lousy H (IMO).

I am in the same situation, I'm so glad (Sorry) that someone can relate. Although I am still not at that point where I want to let go (i have no choice, really, i know, but the hope is still in my heart, regardless of what my brain says...albeit slightly diminshing, well, at least i hope it is). But the difference here is, I know he is a great dad. I don't know how good of a husband (hey, he did cheat on her...confusing...)

For my own reasons, and because I really do see MM as my friend, I can take losing the A but not our friendship.

And that makes it so much harder to end. Because you don't really want to cut him out of your life. That's the thing that scares me now, that I will lose him as a friend as well...

And I would not say I am a 'family friend'...I know his family and they know me but I am not friends with the family. MM is my friend and he is close to my family (being my children). I know his children and W and they all know that we are friends...

Same here. But I know that they had fights concerning me, and he did tell me a few times that "I put up with a lot of cr*p at home for you.."

My friends and I suspect she has someone on the side (she received 2 text message saying "i miss you" and "thinking of you")... if she really is as unresponsive in their m as MM says she is then my Q to her as well is "why stay"

Mine is not a very staright forward story and I don't want to confuse you with the details. So let me just say that I am the first wife, and my H has a second wife, who doesn't know that he was married to me.

I have been introduced to her by my H as his best friend (which is of course true). Initially we weren't very close, and it was just a hi-bye sort of talk. But then, she called me everytime she wanted to know something about him. She would even call me to ask what she should gift him or where he would be on a certain day, etc etc. I felt like as though I was being used like his diary. It was sort of embarassing. But then she is a nice person, and I didn't feel like hurting her. After all, it wasn't her fault that things ended up this way.

Then she started complaining about him to me, which was sort of weird and disturbing to me. Because I felt I couldn't give her an unbiased advice. She also thought that I was capable of making him do anything - so like, she would call me and ask me to "suggest" him to take her some place or buy her something.

May be if I was just his friend, I wouldn't have felt so embarassed or freaked out. But then, with my feelings for him, it was more complicated than it sounds.

I couldn't deny helping her, so instead I sort of broke contacts with her. I changed my contact numbers. It has been just a fortnight since this happened, but I have around 50 unread e-mails from her. I could be her best friend, if circumstances were different. But now I can't.

Funny observation. Awkward situation. I read somewhere before that under a different situation OW and W might be best friends cuz MM is attracted to similar types.

My MM is a awful boyfriend for the most part and is probably an even worse husband. For me he is super consumed with his job - we go out once every two weeks, once a week if I'm lucky. He calls only occasionally and never emails. (He's gotten a little better at that with my prodding).

With respect to his wife - he is currently living and working in another country away from his family. On their 27 yr anniversary he didn't go home and she didn't come visit him - apparently she sent him an email with only one thing "why?" He goes home about once every 3 months usually for business. She calls him. He doesn't call her. Very loving. Funny thing is I get the feeling that he's cheating on his job more so than his wife. Also this is the second time in three years that he has worked away from the family for an extended period of time (1 year plus). He must be a WONDERFUL husband!

under a different situation OW and W might be best friends cuz MM is attracted to similar types

that's interesting. i remember thinking it (but not saying) it to the wife when we found out about one another.

under a different situation OW and W might be best friends cuz MM is attracted to similar types

 

that's interesting. i remember thinking it (but not saying) it to the wife when we found out about one another.

Who'd have thought? I would guess MM would go for OW completely unlike their W! I'm certainly nothing like my MM's W, in any way I can discern. The only thing we have in common seems to be MM...

I have never ever felt the need to ask the Ws any questions.

With my current MM, I know she would say how wonderful he is.. because he truly is... She is totally in love with him, even after 28 years. He's not, but he is an amazing father and I know he's a good husband.

I know him enough to know that he's not a jerk with anyone. At one point, he wanted to leave his family to be with me... but that was last year, when I left him... Now that I put the 'guidelines' down... he has mellowed and is not talking about this anymore... I guess as long as I don't leave him, he's ok.. as soon as I talk of leaving, that's when he gets depressed and wants to leave, he gets very emotional... and that scares me in a way.

But no... I never had any urges to talk to her or even to see her.

How many OW really feel they really KNOW MM? I mean KNOW how MM is at home, in his life, in his interactions with others - not just the MM that the OW gets to see. How many, if given the chance, would want to hear W's version of what MM is REALLY like at home? What would you want to know from W and what difference would it make to how you handle things with MM? Or how many think that it would not matter, they could change MM if he chose them to share his life with?

I wonder if in order to really know someone, we need to know how they interact with others/especially their spouse..? I think interactions/ relationships are between two people... some people are easy for us to get on with, others not so much... some people gel well together, some don't... some are defensive, some manipulative, some a pushover, some... etc. etc. Asking one person how another person is, you will only ever get their version. Even seeing them together, you're not really a party to what really, really is the nitty-gritty of a relationship.

I do have an interest in what MM is like with his W... but for the most part, because of my first paragraph, I think it has a small bearing on our relationship (current or future). I consider it no more important than, say, if I were dating a single guy and could ask his ex partner what she thought he was like. Interesting... but no more than that. And that's quite apart from the 'reality' of actually speaking to her about it or observing them together... I don't even want to go there but that's by the by to the main questions.

I don't think we can change other people, no. I think that people can behave differently depending on how others react to them. Again that comes back to relationships being a two-way street. But yes, you're fooling yourself if you think that essentially that person is really any different. And unless they're really open to looking at themselves, really know themselves, and don't have too many issues, most people can be hard work from time to time. That's just life.

Every relationship requires a heck of a lot of hard work and goodwill on both sides. While observing someone interacting with their current partner might teach you things about them... it's really limited information. What really counts is how they are with you... and how you work together.

]My MM and I spend protracted time together, and there are times he slips into habits he's formed around his W - like always apologising for everything, even when it's not his fault or nothing to do with him, because she always blames him for everything and attacks him and makes it his fault, so it's easier for him just to say sorry and try to keep the peace. That doesn't work for me, and I call him on it, and then we talk about it and he realises he's slipped into W-mode and pulls himself out of it again. But I know after all these years with her that's become a habit, he's going to keep doing it, and I'm going to have to deal with that. But it's no biggie - we both know where that stuff comes from, and why, and we're both prepared to work at things.

I thought my MM was the only one who went into a "sad, aplogetic, keep the peace" mode. He does that often and I tell him to stop because he's dosen't have to apologize for being an adult. He's been attacked and put down so long and so much, its sad.

I'd like to ask wifey :

1. Why, after 7 years, she hasn't filed for divorce?

2. Does she think he's gonna go back to her?

3. Why has she been thru 3 boyfriend's in the last 5 years?

Oh & many many more that would take up too much time to post here.

TF

I could care less what his wife says and thinks about her husband, especially since she thought he was so wonderful and that she knew him so well just after four months of dating to marry him. I still think she's an a-hole--but that's just me being bitter maybe? He tells me all the time what a monster he is--at least he's honest. Not too many people admit they're monsters. I don't even know Why he tells me he's a monster. He tells me about their fights at home--sounds monsterous to me. I also think that some people bring the worst out of others. Me though, if I was in an abusive relationship or even an unhealthy one, I'd leave. Who needs that crap? My Lovely whore of a step mother abused me when I was a kid, so I know what is a good and what is a bad relationship enough to get out of it before I'm destroyed even more. This MM though is miserable, period. He whines, and I think it's odd that a man whines so much. He needs therapy, and I'd be more than happy to bring him. I'd also ask her Why she felt the need to call me five times one night and breath in my ear instead of saying what she wanted to say. other than that, I have no need or desire to ask a woman who felt that she knew this man well enough after four months to marry him and make a lifetime commitment with him. That tells me she has poor judgement.

I wonder if in order to really know someone, we need to know how they interact with others/especially their spouse..? .....

 

Obviously the option to 'observe' how MM is with his spouse is out of the question for most OW but it would be enlightening for many OW to see that the relationship between MM and W is probably not as strained and as fractured as MM would have us believe. That would go a long way in OW being able to put the 'truth' of their situation into perspective. For those OW that believe those MM that say they will leave, their wives are horrible, they have no relationship anymore.....

 

 

Asking one person how another person is, you will only ever get their version.

 

Exactly......the OW only gets the MM's version of the M/R, and from what I've read it is often not the 'true' version but rather the one that garnishes the most sympathy and response from the OW and sucks the OW further into the "my poor MM is so unhappy, I will be there for him and take care of him and we will have a life together when he can get free from her".

 

Even seeing them together, you're not really a party to what really, really is the nitty-gritty of a relationship.

 

So true......seeing anyone in a public place is never indicative of what goes on behind closed doors because everyone is on their best behavior (usually) and putting on a charade. How many OW can relate to that.

 

 

Every relationship requires a heck of a lot of hard work and goodwill on both sides. While observing someone interacting with their current partner might teach you things about them... it's really limited information. What really counts is how they are with you... and how you work together.

Any relationship requires a great deal of work and, personally, I feel the MM/OW relationship requires MORE than most just because of the logistics and planning........I wouldn't think observing interactions would teach us near as much as I was thinking that 'the other side of the story' would put what we hear into perspective. I agree that how MM is with OW is key as well as how the two work together.

The reason for my thread to begin with was that so many OW hinge all their thoughts, feelings and lives on WHAT the MM tells them and WHAT the MM promises them and how wonderful MM is to them in a 'surreal' situation. Sometimes, (and only when the OW really wants to deal with the reality of their situation) it would be great to know the whole story in order to know what OW is really getting into and what she is really going to get out of the R - Especially if she plans and expects on having a life with MM........wouldn't it be good to know the real MM and not just the one we get to see (usually under less than 'normal' conditions) for short periods of time when everyone is putting the best forward in a situation that is about as far from 'normal' as a couple could get.

I mean, MM & OW don't have the 'normal' live issues to deal with most of the time - we don't share bills, expenses, child rearing issues, etc...instead we get to enjoy their company devoid of these things so we have little to fight or disagree about. The issues that MM/OW seem to identify that they do fight about would be the W and/or the amount of time/lack of commitment we get from MM.

It would rarely if ever happen but I think OW wouldn't be quite as disallusioned with thoughts that MM is 'all that' and more and would be able to see him as human with flaws instead of being on a pedestal all the time. (Again, not all OW do this but the ones that do hurt so badly when the truth kicks them in the a$$...)

I personally like Lizzie's comment:

Now that I put the 'guidelines' down... he has mellowed and is not talking about this anymore... I guess as long as I don't leave him, he's ok.. as soon as I talk of leaving, that's when he gets depressed and wants to leave, he gets very emotional... and that scares me in a way

I'm sure I'll get blasted by every BS on here but I really think the BEST MM/OW relationship is the one like this where the OW controls the situation - talk about tables being turned......and God knows it rarely happens!