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Old 29th November 2017, 6:51 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Justanaverageguy View Post
Hope that makes sense.
Yes, of course – you always do!

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But the one point where I think maybe we differ is the part I highlighted ... As I quoted before Jesus said many many times he came for the sinner not the righteous. For the sick not the healthy.
Actually, I agree that Jesus came “not to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance”; and also he said, “For judgment I [the Christ or Christ Consciousness] have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind.”

Where we may differ is to whom we believe Jesus was referring, in those two quotes and other similar ones. To my current understanding, it was the spiritual power elite of the time, not the general population that was being oppressed and suppressed by said power elite. (Jesus needed to use the word ‘sinner’ because that reflected the religious beliefs of those to whom he was preaching; they did not use the word ‘Karma’.) Christ Judgment is also not for those of us who suffer from lesser-lower consciousness; it’s for those who time and time and time again refuse to raise themselves up out of the fallen consciousness; they are ‘blind’ in consciousness because they have ‘blinded’ themselves to the Laws of God. (They call themselves righteous and think they can see, but the Living Christ knows that this is not the case. On the other side, ‘those who see’ are the true righteous, and they need to become ‘blind’ to iniquity and temptation.)

Those of us who are struggling to find God to the best of our ability, were not the focus of Jesus’ Mission; it was the Fallen Beings and the false ones who were, at that time, embodied as the scribes, Pharisees, money changers and Sanhedrin. They are not looking for God but looking to be as a god on Earth.
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People can and should help themselves and have the ability to transmute negative karma themselves by doing good works and being a good person and following other practices taught in the east. But irrespective of that there are people who reach a point where they are beyond that. ... They have accumulated a large enough "debt" of negative karma that there is no possible way they could hope to pay it off without outside help.
Well...we may disagree on the part that I bolded but it depends on how you’re meaning it. From my perspective, as long as someone wants spiritual forgiveness and is willing to repent by abandoning their lesser-lower or fallen ways, then the way for their full salvation is entirely possible. The path is opened up, by Grace if you want to put it that way, for anyone who is truly willing to repent and undertake all needed and necessary spiritual practices – inner confession, cleansing, purifying, etc. It doesn’t depend on our past decisions and choices but on those that we take ‘in the now’.

Yes, we do need to invoke the help of Christ or God or the Holy Spirit – but I don’t consider those as being ‘outside help’ because we access them from within. Once we make a sincere Call for that help, then we are already worthy of receiving it or of receiving the Grace of it. We are already Spiritual-Divine Beings – created so by God, meaning that we cannot lose it (even if we can lose sight of it or cover it over with our lesser-lower-consciousness garbage) – but/so, we only need to qualify ourselves to receive God’s or the Holy Spirit’s Grace and Forgiveness, first by asking for it and then through our conscious, active, sincere, consistent spiritual efforts.

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And the consequences of "sin" are very real. That's maybe another thing I also feel some new age teachings are too "lovey dovey" with no balance - they wrongly "de-emphasise" this.
So...I realized that we’re not using the term ‘New Age’ in the same way. I don’t follow popular authors as true spiritual teachers – but most of them still do offer truth that we can uncover if we use our Christ Discernment. However, I find much more value-for-my-Energy-and-time in what are called ‘Ascended-Master Teachings’. (For current-day spiritual teachings, I really don’t go to any other teachings or authors, anymore. Nevertheless, I will follow you! .)

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So for me this was a large part of the purpose of Jesus "mission" and the symbolism of his crucifixion - to provide a way for those who had no way. To get in between this cycle of negative karma and act as the payer of debts for those who would never be able to repay what they owed. Because forgiveness of debt is not "free" - it requires someone else to foot the bill. In this case God\Jesus offering their own spirit to transmute the negative energy and consequences. A metaphysical blood sacrifice so to speak.
So...here is where we don’t hold the same interpretation of events. Jesus’ Mission was to break a force of negative Karma that was attached to Earth at that time, and it had to be done in the physical – we agree on that. Jesus accomplished this outside of his crucifixion. (It actually had to be broken at levels of the collective consciousness but by somebody embodied on Earth.)

I don’t agree that ‘Jesus’ is an interchangeable name or word for ‘God’, and I don’t agree that ‘blood sacrifice’ is a spiritual or God Concept. To me, it is an entirely fallen-consciousness construct and, thus, Christ and Jesus-the-Christ would not ever be involved in any blood sacrifice of any kind. God did not, would not and never has sanctioned, demanded or required it; not for atonement, not for Forgiveness, not for devotion or worship. (All blood sacrifices throughout every Age came out of the mind of the Fallen Beings or the Antichrist – not God and not the Christ Mind.)

The Fallen Beings and their legions physically crucified Jesus, and all they did by this was to ensure their own Christ Judgment. (“For judgment I have come into this world.”) The Fallen Beings spilled the blood of the Living Christ; God never told them to do it; an act of a Fallen Being cannot transmute or raise up negative Energies. Nevertheless, Christ Judgment actually is a Grace – and it is extended to every single Lifestream no matter how large is their accumulated karmic debt. No one is beyond redemption until they choose the Second Death for themselves.

For sake of interest, there is a Teaching that says that Hitler chose the Second Death after he realized how much it would take to clear his karmic debt after his last embodiment.

How I interpret it is that we must settle our own spiritual or karmic debts down to the last ‘jot and stroke of pen’; it’s our responsibility and we must do it personally, individually. If it takes a thousand lifetimes – as long as we keep earning for our self the privilege of opportunity to keep reincarnating – then that’s what it takes. (We have to keep earning it and, if not, there is some kind of limit.) Our forgiveness of our debt is not free, no, but neither is it or any portion of it transferable, either. We are the only payer of our own debts.

Also, how I think about it is: How, two-thousand years ago, could there possibly be a blanket absolution or Spiritual Dispensation granted for all future sins, including those committed by Hitler, with the atomic bomb, in Jesus’ Name, etc., etc. – when, given free will, these sins and the horrific nature and impact on humanity was not even yet imagined? How could these have been “paid for in advance”?

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Hell is to me a metaphysical place and it occurs when someone has developed such a huge level of bad karma they are burried under it into a never ending cycle of pain and suffering where they essentially destroy themselves.
My understanding is also that hell takes up the lowest octave of the Astral plane of Earth, and it is experienced as ‘never-ending’ in the same way as when we suffer it can feel like that. That is, even the hell Beings do get their opportunities to repent and save themselves. We can only destroy our Lifestream in the Spiritual realm – through the Initiation of the Second Death. (To be honest, at this point I can’t yet wrap my head around the hell realm or the Beings who reside there. Still have work to do about it.)

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Forceful judgment is sometimes necessary and Fear of god is still wise advice in addition to love of.
Jesus never taught ‘fear of God’, and any judgment forced upon us by God would violate God’s own Law of Free Will. If we trust Jesus’ words, then in any case we would not fear God but ‘the Son’ (Christ or Christ Consciousness), because Jesus said, “Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgments to the Son.”

However, there is absolutely nothing to fear because Christ Judgment only means that the individual is given one last opportunity to save him- or herself. It’s a free-will decision of the Lifestream and not made by God or any Ascended Representative of Christ. When faced with Christ Judgment, the option for the Lifestream is to come back into the Light, to repent and to start properly transmuting its Karma, or to choose the Second Death.

I think...for me, the Law of Karma sufficiently explains all the negativity, pain and suffering that we can see on this planet or that we experience personally – as well as it explains all the joy, positive and inspirational. I don’t believe in anything like ‘God’s Wrath’ against us, individually or collectively. I do believe that God’s Love is unconditional and God’s Law is impersonal – “He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

For me, that’s empowering and uplifting because it makes me the master of my own fate and the captain of my own Soul. Of course I have to live within the Law of God and I have to detach myself from ‘loving the world or anything in the world’, like Jesus and the saints and the Bhudda did – but why would I not want to do that to the best of my spiritual understanding, in any case? (Not that it’s easy to detach from caring about our physical body and our life on Earth and the people we love on Earth, but that’s what it takes; that’s what the scriptures tell us to do.)
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Old 30th November 2017, 4:25 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Ronni_W View Post
Well...we may disagree on the part that I bolded but it depends on how you’re meaning it. From my perspective, as long as someone wants spiritual forgiveness and is willing to repent by abandoning their lesser-lower or fallen ways, then the way for their full salvation is entirely possible. The path is opened up, by Grace if you want to put it that way, for anyone who is truly willing to repent and undertake all needed and necessary spiritual practices – inner confession, cleansing, purifying, etc. It doesn’t depend on our past decisions and choices but on those that we take ‘in the now’.

... How I interpret it is that we must settle our own spiritual or karmic debts down to the last ‘jot and stroke of pen’; it’s our responsibility and we must do it personally, individually. If it takes a thousand lifetimes – as long as we keep earning for our self the privilege of opportunity to keep reincarnating – then that’s what it takes. (We have to keep earning it and, if not, there is some kind of limit.) Our forgiveness of our debt is not free, no, but neither is it or any portion of it transferable, either. We are the only payer of our own debts.
What I am trying to say here is that I feel Jesus life and death added something more. Grace as you say always afforded the ability of repentance. People if they changed their ways could work to undertake all needed and necessary spiritual practices and grace would open a way for it to happen so they can heal themselves. But this took effort on the part of the sinner.

It didn't provide the ability for the spirit of god to enter a sinner and literally transform them and remove their sins and the karmic consequences without effort on their part. I feel Jesus life provided and was symbolic of this - and I say this because I experienced it directly. It is where the whole "born again" christian movement comes from people who experienced this. And I know its hard if you haven't experienced it (though probably a good thing because it means you haven't sinned enough to need it).

It is symbolized through his resurrection - someone who has committed great sin and done nothing to redeem themselves being touched and absolved completely. And it happens through the heart space as depicted in the "Jesus sacred heart" motif. That picture is a literal depiction of how you experience it. The spirit enters through the heart - and believe me when it does you don't miss it. Its like an energy eruption in the heart space - feels like your heart is literally exploding with love. I couldn't do anything when it happened but meditate and walk in the forest for about 3 weeks. It was so intense and beautiful I was just sitting and crying from the bliss that was washing over me - I started temporarily seeing auras and energy fields and all sorts of crazy stuff I never thought existed.

The experience completely cleanses your energy body - and heals any illness \ sickness you have. I had serious gastro intesinal issues and very serious back issue - sever disc herniation - I had been laid low with and at doctors for months and it was healed in a matter of days after I encountered the energy. It was a literal miracle just as you see in the bible. I was blind and now I could see both physically - and spiritually.

So my take, which is largely based on this experience, is that his physical ministry on earth - going to sinners and healing them then dying and coming back - is and was a metphor - a parable for a new spiritual experience that is still available today. A sinner encountering the spirit and being completely and instantly absolved of their sins and karma associated with them. Being reborn. His life was symbolic of a new way of god interacting with his son's and daughters. It was offering a fresh start - complete regeneration and absolution through his love.

If you are a righteous person - (Which I take you to be) - I understand why this doesn't necessarily effect you or speak to you. Because you never needed it. Take that as a very VERY good thing which speaks to the way you lived your life to this point


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Originally Posted by Ronni_W View Post
I don’t agree that ‘Jesus’ is an interchangeable name or word for ‘God’, and I don’t agree that ‘blood sacrifice’ is a spiritual or God Concept. To me, it is an entirely fallen-consciousness construct and, thus, Christ and Jesus-the-Christ would not ever be involved in any blood sacrifice of any kind. God did not, would not and never has sanctioned, demanded or required it; not for atonement, not for Forgiveness, not for devotion or worship. (All blood sacrifices throughout every Age came out of the mind of the Fallen Beings or the Antichrist – not God and not the Christ Mind.)
Depends how you look at it - I look at it more in the Vedic\Hindu sense. He was an "avatar" of god. A living embodiment of god. I see "god" as a pattern of energy - Jesus matched that pattern exactly (or as close as anyone has achieved) - therefore he is god - just in human form. I see the relationship between Jesus \ God as being "fractal". A self similar pattern or "made in his image" so to speak where a small part (jesus) reflects the pattern of the "whole" (God) .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3YvheUKSEg Thus I use them interchangeably - but I understand why this causes confusion because of the way traditional Christians worship the man rather then what he spiritually represented. If you see the human caricature. The man with the beard and the robes - "the idol" - as "God" then your missing the point. It was his pattern of behaviour that made him "godly" not his name or his appearance etc. You don't want to grasp too tightly to the idea of the man - but at the same time the man embodied god so his human form provides an avenue we can relate to - to understand what "god looks\behaves like" which we can connect with and aspire to.

In terms of his death - like I said I feel its mostly symbolic. Dying to sin - and reborn in to god. Him (god) taking the load of our sin - the deathly consequences as his own and removing them so we can be born anew.
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Originally Posted by Ronni_W View Post

Also, how I think about it is: How, two-thousand years ago, could there possibly be a blanket absolution or Spiritual Dispensation granted for all future sins, including those committed by Hitler, with the atomic bomb, in Jesus’ Name, etc., etc. – when, given free will, these sins and the horrific nature and impact on humanity was not even yet imagined? How could these have been “paid for in advance”?
Well did Jesus heal everyone when he was physically on earth ? No - there was no "blanket" absolution or healing. Actually he showed utter contempt for some. He didn't heal any of the pharisees he still showed discernment with who he provided his grace to. He instructed his disciples to completely avoid those who showed no desire for contrition and move on to helping others. I think that same rule applies to who this experience potentially becomes available to today - contrition perhaps being the minimum pre requisite. And like I said his death 2000 years ago was symbolic - a parable - for what happens when this experience actively occurs to this very today. Because it didn't happen "just once" way back 2000 years ago - its a parable to convey a deeper spiritual truth. He (God) "carries the cross all over again" so to speak when he takes the burden off your shoulders, enters you and provides his divine healing spirit to wash your sins and their consequences clean. It wasn't "paid in advance" - he paid my bill and carried my cross only 2 years ago The idea is having had this experience (as I have) - you try to take up your cross and follow him to help others just as his disciples did. To teach - to guide - to heal others who have gone off the path. Obviously we can't do what Jesus did (though more and more I see that as a matter of faith then any inherent limitation) - but we can still help - to make the spiritual load lighter to carry just as Simon did on the road to Calvary.

But I still agree with you that the church today has kind of twisted the premise - and turned it into an idea of "relying on Jesus" rather then following his example.

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Originally Posted by Ronni_W View Post

Jesus never taught ‘fear of God’, and any judgment forced upon us by God would violate God’s own Law of Free Will. If we trust Jesus’ words, then in any case we would not fear God but ‘the Son’ (Christ or Christ Consciousness), because Jesus said, “Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgments to the Son.”

However, there is absolutely nothing to fear because Christ Judgment only means that the individual is given one last opportunity to save him- or herself. It’s a free-will decision of the Lifestream and not made by God or any Ascended Representative of Christ.
Hmm on this point I think you are being selective with your scripture references for Jesus stated on numerous occasions there would be great wrath apon those who did not repent. Again from my perspective I think this is maybe because you lived a good life - and perhaps are naive\innicent in a very good way to the consequences of sin. The child consciousness Jesus encouraged. Pure innocence. But Jesus wasn't really ambiguous about the consequences of sin - especially for those who had received god's grace and still not repented. And this is one of the things I try to ensure people understand - as people "ascend" its even more important that we are acting in accordance with God's will. You're taking more energy - there for you have to produce a "larger crop". Its an energetic system - with great power comes great responsibility (part of the reason he said its harder for a rich man to enter heaven then a camel to pass through the eye of a needle) A tree which takes more nutrients is judged differently to one who uses little. So we must always be asking ourselves - what is the "fruit" of our spiritual effort ?

Eg: Luke 12:47 - "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. "

Matt 12:15 "And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town"

Matt 13:24 "Parable of the weeds: While you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

John 15:1 "Parable of the true vine: I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful."

Luke 13:6 "Parable of the barren fig: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down"

Last edited by Justanaverageguy; 30th November 2017 at 7:52 AM..
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Old 30th November 2017, 1:42 PM   #303
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People if they changed their ways could work to undertake all needed and necessary spiritual practices and grace would open a way for it to happen so they can heal themselves. But this took effort on the part of the sinner.
How I’m interpreting what you’re saying is that you did not make any spiritual effort on your own part in order to receive the Grace and Blessing of your experience but, instead, it was bestowed upon you out of some storehouse of ‘Universal Absolution’ that has only been in existence for around two-thousand years.

From my own current belief system, how I would put it is: You did not make any efforts of which you are consciously aware. (I would say that your awakening would not have taken place without you having, at least at inner levels, desired it out of your own free will and that you also would have undertaken, at least at inner levels, some spiritual activity that opened up your own path. It doesn’t have to have been in this lifetime, and it doesn’t have to have been only when you were in a conscious waking state.)

I don’t accept that people on Earth are spiritually powerless, helpless and unworthy – even if some people see or want to see themselves that way (spiritual inferiority, or not wanting to take 100% spiritual responsibility, or whatever their personal reasons) – but we still do have to qualify ourselves in order to receiving the Grace and Blessings that are flowing freely throughout the universe. “He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
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Well did Jesus heal everyone when he was physically on earth ? ... He instructed his disciples to completely avoid those who showed no desire for contrition and move on to helping others.
This is exactly what I’m saying. The ones who did not want to make their own spiritual efforts are beyond being able to receive the Grace and Blessings of Christ, be that at the physical level through a Living Christ or metaphysically, directly from the Holy Spirit. It’s that such people have not qualified themselves for the Grace and Blessing, not that God or the Holy Spirit or Christ is being all arbitrary or capricious about who is qualified, not qualified or disqualified (spiritually worthy or unworthy).

Jesus was discriminating but it was not based on outer appearances (religion, profession, status, gender), it was based on the person’s inner spirituality; he used his Christ Discernment. Ref: Luke 7:1-10 (and Matthew 8:5-13), and Luke 19:1-10.
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I see the relationship between Jesus \ God as being "fractal". ... Thus I use them interchangeably - but I understand why this causes confusion because of the way traditional Christians worship the man rather then what he spiritually represented.
I do understand about Divine Matrices. I have already made clear my distinction between Jesus-the-man and the Christ Consciousness that he attained and demonstrated on Earth. It is worshiping the man to call Jesus the same as God, instead of calling Christ the same as God. And it is idolatry of the man Jesus to think that he is or could be the only one to ever be able to become a Christed Being; I agree with you that we ought not to turn Jesus into an idol.

As individualizations of God we each have our own unique-personal Divine Matrix or God’s Immaculate Concept for our individualized Consciousness. Christhood means manifesting our unique God Matrix or Pattern.

When you yourself realize and manifest your personal Christhood, then in your present system, we would have to say that there are now three interchangeable Beings: Justanaverageguy = Jesus = God.
The difference is that, in my present system, we would say:
Justanaverageguy = Christ; Jesus = Christ; Ronni = Christ; etc., etc., to include all Divine Beings created by God (who have made their individual efforts and worked to pass their Spiritual Initiation to attain their personal Christhood); and then all of these are distilled into: Christ = God

The distinction may be so subtle as to be easily missed.
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Hmm on this point I think you are being selective with your scripture references for Jesus stated on numerous occasions there would be great wrath apon those who did not repent.
I don’t know what is being (mis)interpreted that is making you think that I don’t understand or accept what you refer to as ‘the consequences of sin’. I’ve already mentioned the Second Death, which is the greatest (most negative) consequence of ‘sin’, and I most assuredly do recognize and accept the seriousness of a Lifestream for whom the Second Death becomes its only way out rather than surrendering to the Christ Within and making the free-will decision and choice to repent and once again start raising up its consciousness to that of its Divine Matrix.

As a spiritual teacher, of course Jesus had to help all people understand the negative consequence of a continued (over many lifetimes and opportunities) refusal to come back into the Light and get back on a spiritual path – which is just another way of saying, ‘refusal to repent, confess, cleanse, purify, etc.’ A true spiritual teacher cannot just paint the rosey picture of Heaven as the positive consequence (reward) for making proper, higher decisions and choices. Nevertheless, the consequence (punishment or reward) is on account of our own free-will decisions and choices (made also at inner or metaphysical levels and over many lifetimes, including in Bardo).

We bring our negative consequences on ourselves – through our spiritual pride, stubbornness, willful ignorance, arrogance, sense of spiritual inferiority, etc., etc. That is, our (negative) consequences of our own free-will decisions to ‘sin’ are self-created and not forced upon us by some angry, wrathful, arbitrary and capricious God nor through Christ Judgment; our negative experiences are merely the result or outplaying of the Universal or God Law of Cause and Effect, also called the Law of Karma. Negative consequences (effects – conditions, circumstances) for our negative use of our own free will (over many lifetimes, not just this one), and positive for positive which, of course, an awakening experience such as we each have had in this lifetime is positive.
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If you are a righteous person - (Which I take you to be) ... Again from my perspective I think this is maybe because you lived a good life - and perhaps are naive\innicent in a very good way to the consequences of sin.
For sure I’ve never been accused of being naïve, , and I guess it depends on your definition of ‘a righteous person’. The people who know me in real life are highly unlikely to classify me as such, and I’ve never even thought about myself in such terms. I’ve already mentioned, I think, that we all still are at various levels of being in the lesser-lower consciousness – you call this ‘being a sinner’ and I call it ‘still having negative Karma to balance’. Whatever we call it, though, I’m no exception.

For you to begin to know the hardships that I’ve dealt with (in this lifetime) – and there has been physical illness and some kind of metaphysical interference, as well – would take a week and many cases of beer. Consequences of my own prior spiritual mistakes, not the doings of a wrathful God; I don’t need to blame God for the consequences (the effects) of my own prior mistakes or ‘sins’ (the cause). At the same time, like you, I’m not aware in my outer mind what I did to qualify myself to receive my this lifetime’s awakening experience – but I know intuitively that it couldn’t have happened without me; I can also claim my own spiritual progress and attainment.


The only way that my mind can grasp some of how your mind is looking at certain things, is if I tell myself that this is the only lifetime we get, that what counts is only what we know with our outer mind, and that only our experiences during waking awareness are important or have any relevance or impact on our spiritual learning, growth, progress and attainment. So, everything you’re saying does make sense in the sense that I can understand where you’re coming from. But, among other things, I believe in reincarnation and that there is also a metaphysical reality (not just the material-physical that we need our physical senses and conscious mind to confirm for us), so I don’t share some of your perspective.

Again, much food for thought for being on a spiritual path and finding God

In Love and Light.
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Old 1st December 2017, 2:40 AM   #304
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For sure I’ve never been accused of being naïve, , and I guess it depends on your definition of ‘a righteous person’. The people who know me in real life are highly unlikely to classify me as such, and I’ve never even thought about myself in such terms. I’ve already mentioned, I think, that we all still are at various levels of being in the lesser-lower consciousness – you call this ‘being a sinner’ and I call it ‘still having negative Karma to balance’. Whatever we call it, though, I’m no exception.

For you to begin to know the hardships that I’ve dealt with (in this lifetime) – and there has been physical illness and some kind of metaphysical interference, as well – would take a week and many cases of beer. Consequences of my own prior spiritual mistakes, not the doings of a wrathful God; I don’t need to blame God for the consequences (the effects) of my own prior mistakes or ‘sins’ (the cause). At the same time, like you, I’m not aware in my outer mind what I did to qualify myself to receive my this lifetime’s awakening experience – but I know intuitively that it couldn’t have happened without me; I can also claim my own spiritual progress and attainment.
I'm really sorry - I feel really bad re-reading this. My comments definitely came across as very condescending and presumptive. It wasn't my intention when writing it to be that way but they definitely are. I have no idea on your background and shouldn't have presumed as much. Hope you accept my apologies for these remarks. We each have our paths to walk and challenges to face and I have no doubt you have had your fair share. I think we just have a difference of opinion on the consequences of sin - I should have found a way to word this better then I did.


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Originally Posted by Ronni_W View Post
How I’m interpreting what you’re saying is that you did not make any spiritual effort on your own part in order to receive the Grace and Blessing of your experience but, instead, it was bestowed upon you out of some storehouse of ‘Universal Absolution’ that has only been in existence for around two-thousand years.

From my own current belief system, how I would put it is: You did not make any efforts of which you are consciously aware. (I would say that your awakening would not have taken place without you having, at least at inner levels, desired it out of your own free will and that you also would have undertaken, at least at inner levels, some spiritual activity that opened up your own path. It doesn’t have to have been in this lifetime, and it doesn’t have to have been only when you were in a conscious waking state.)

I don’t accept that people on Earth are spiritually powerless, helpless and unworthy – even if some people see or want to see themselves that way (spiritual inferiority, or not wanting to take 100% spiritual responsibility, or whatever their personal reasons) – but we still do have to qualify ourselves in order to receiving the Grace and Blessings that are flowing freely throughout the universe.
I was about as far from spiritual awakening and spiritual advancement as you could possibly hope to envisage. I was sky diving into oblivion so to speak. I won't argue that I may have done something in a previous life to perhaps warrant additional mercy - no way for me to really know though. All I know is my experience mirrored exactly what is talked about in the Christian tradition - which I was raised into - rather then some other schools. It was also extended to me - but yet I see so many others in pain and on similar roads to destruction that did not receive the same grace.

Also as I alluded to in the previous post - I just don't think "god" was previously actively intervening in such a direct and transformative way. It is not by my own hand but his that I was raised up and restored. You previously said it was entirely up to us to transform ourselves and pay our own karma and none of it can be transferred. This is one thing I categorically know to be false based on personal experience - its not a maybe or a possibly wrong - its definitely not true and I am living proof. You could say I "qualified" in some way - but nothing can truly earn what I received. Thus to me - Jesus life was simply intended as a metaphor - a parable like all of his teachings to show this change. It was symbolic. I feel like maybe because you didn't have this specific type of Sinner transformed experience you're maybe trying to adjust Jesus message into something that fits your own narrative. Thus your view is that the NT teaching is wrong and has been corrupted. My experience on the other hand matches exactly to the teaching - there for I think it is correct and was intended the way it has been presented.

And no one is saying we have to be spiritually powerless - though humbleness is something I have had to learn the hard way. It's really not through force of effort - but surrender that spiritual "power" is achieved. So sure you "might" be able to achieve it under your own steam - I'm just saying its not the only way and Jesus life symbolized a new path through grace.

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The only way that my mind can grasp some of how your mind is looking at certain things, is if I tell myself that this is the only lifetime we get, that what counts is only what we know with our outer mind, and that only our experiences during waking awareness are important or have any relevance or impact on our spiritual learning, growth, progress and attainment. So, everything you’re saying does make sense in the sense that I can understand where you’re coming from. But, among other things, I believe in reincarnation and that there is also a metaphysical reality (not just the material-physical that we need our physical senses and conscious mind to confirm for us), so I don’t share some of your perspective.
So we share the belief in reincarnation - I also believe it takes many lives to refine ourselves. It is not that I think this lifetime is all we get - I think if we are worthy we get many. But at the same time I also think its entirely possible to completely destroy yourself in a single life time. So for me there is an immediacy - and urgency - and more importance placed on the consequences of sin. This opinion is again formed simply from my own experience of what happens when we do. Its not that we only get 1 life to live - its that it only takes 1 badly lived life to "die"

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Old 1st December 2017, 5:21 AM   #305
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Thinking about our different perspectives - I feel like in a way we are maybe the two brothers in the story of the prodigal son. (again not meaning to cast any dispersion about your path or history). But I see what I am talking about as being the path of prodigal son who having come upon ruin received grace from his father - thus he affords all the thanks and power to that father who welcomed him back with open arms and restored him. You perhaps are advocating for the path of the "good son". The one who through good works and consistent positive action achieves his goal without the need for the fathers grace. They are both valid paths. Though the good son path is the more nobel of the two which we should all aspire to. I just think Jesus message was intended to show the path of redemption. Being brought back from death to life.

Also I'm thinking we should take your earlier advice - and let BC take his thread back. We can move our back and forth to another thread as it has gone off the original topic

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Old 1st December 2017, 5:32 AM   #306
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I'm really sorry - Hope you accept my apologies for these remarks.
Hugs, Justanaverageguy. No probs at all. I know you well enough to know that there isn’t anything condescending in your thoughts, feelings and attitudes towards other people! . (And, if I didn’t know that about you by now, then you really wouldn’t want me for a friend, would you? – You are nothing but kind, gentle and gracious on these boards, and if I didn’t recognize that, then there’d be something wrong with me, not you.) Please don’t give it any more thought. .
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I think we just have a difference of opinion on the consequences of sin -
Actually, I think possibly it’s more that we each have been focusing on, we could almost say, different classes of ‘sin’. To me, there’s your more-or-less ‘run-of-the-mill’ type, which almost everyone practices to one or another degree. These do have consequences, of course, but they can be transmuted without too much fuss or bother through our use of proper spiritual techniques, so they don’t have too long or onerous effects on the Lifestream (at the Spiritual-identity level). Here the most important thing is that we need to have awareness and humility enough to realize our need for confession and repentance. Consequences are going to be milder forms of distress and discomfort in life, including relationships, physical illness, materially/financially.

Then you have the level where people actually know that they’ve got ‘sins’ that they need to confess and repent but they won't do it out of pride, stubbornness or a need to think that they're perfect; or, out of fear or misguided loyalty, they’re keeping themselves blind (willfully ignorant) to higher spiritual truths even when those make more sense to them; or, they know how to live a more spiritual life but they’re making conscious free-will decisions to not do it (pride, stubbornness, willful spiritual disobedience). Here they’re going to run into heavier negative consequences than the first group. Worse relationships, worse physical illnesses, worse conditions and circumstances all around, and start to get into diagnosable mental illness.

Then you have the Hitlers, Stalins, Attila the Huns and Maos in their fallen level of consciousness. These are the ones who can tap-out all their remaining spiritual opportunities in a single lifetime. They have a serious debt and it will take a lot to pay it off, possibly including one or more trips to the hell realm. They themselves get to choose, though, how they want to proceed – the Law of Free Will reigns supreme for all unascended Beings of the material world of form, no exceptions; God’s Love is impersonal, not only unconditional. But. Everybody needs to be willing to work for our own Spiritual Forgiveness, redemption and salvation – by giving up pride and showing willingness to confess and repent. The ones in this group are seldom ready to do that and then they leave themselves only one option: to choose the Second Death, which has the effect of permanently annihilating the portion of God Consciousness that had gone into creating them (their Divine Matrix) in the first place, which is why this is the greatest, most negative consequence of ‘sin’ or, of choosing to not purify one’s consciousness and transmute one’s negative Karma.

In consciousness, the Pharisees, scribes and Sanhedrin of Jesus’ time belonged to this last group. I’m not at all saying that Jesus did not come to help the ones in the first two groups, but he came to bring Christ Judgment – or what you call ‘God’s Wrath’ – upon the last group. (The ones in the first two groups are not at the same risk of actually losing their opportunity to re-embody on Earth.)
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But at the same time I also think its entirely possible to completely destroy yourself in a single life time.
As I said above, for the third group it is possible – if the Lifestream, after transitioning out of the physical body, will not admit to its spiritual mistakes (‘sins’) or does not want to make itself humble, surrender to God, confess, repent and go through whatever purifying acts it needs to suffer in order for it to be able to come back on a spiritual path. (And suffer it will have to!)
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but yet I see so many others in pain and on similar roads to destruction that did not receive the same grace.
That is because they are in ‘group 2’ above. They still have opportunities (or they’d not be embodied on Earth) but they’re not yet ready to give up their spiritually non-constructive or destructive ways, or they’ve still got too much pride and/or stubbornness to admit that they’re making spiritual mistakes or 'sinning'.

I know somebody like this. And in her next lifetime, you’re going to be looking at her and also asking why she’s one of the ones not getting any Grace. And, sure as heck, she’s going to be wondering that about her own self – “What have I done to deserve this?” Exactly what she’s done to deserve it will be written in her Akashic File and, unless she turns it around for herself, after that lifetime, she’ll get to see it...again. Just like she’s gonna get to see it after this one.

It’s sad, for sure, and I’ve done all I can about it. In fact, did too much and actually went and, unknown to me at the time, generated negative Karma for myself. (She’s made herself into – free-will chose it for herself to be - one of those whom Jesus told his disciples to avoid, and just move on to the people who can actually be helped because they’re willing to change themselves and thus have qualified or opened themselves to receiving Grace. God truly does help those who help themselves. And I’d also say that willful spiritual pride, ignorance, blindness and disobedience just does not pay; not even innocent ignorance. .)
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All I know is my experience mirrored exactly what is talked about in the Christian tradition - which I was raised into -
I was raised Roman Catholic. Just because we were given non-sensical, false or misguided teachings and messages in our formative years doesn’t mean that we have to hold onto it as being valid or applicable.


So...I’m not really sure if we’re helping BC1980 at this point. If we want to continue what seems to have become our conversation then perhaps we should take it off-board or start a new thread?
(BC1980, sorry if we've taken it over in ways with which you're not happy.)
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Old 1st December 2017, 5:53 AM   #307
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Sorry, Justanaverageguy – I was busy with my post above, and didn’t see yours in time. Posting this just so’s you know that I’m not ignoring you. .
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But I see what I am talking about as being the path of prodigal son who having come upon ruin received grace from his father - thus he affords all the thanks and power to that father who welcomed him back with open arms and restored him.
Too true, we are ALL God’s prodigal sons and daughters! That is a definite ‘for sure!’

I’m focusing on what the prodigals have to do in order for God to be able to welcome us back, which the Biblical prodigal also had to do – and did do.

(We have to be willing to be humble enough to make that long, and maybe even a little bit uncomfortable, humiliating, ‘tail-between-the-legs’ trip home. Us having to make the trip, is the part that I focus on. Because. I already know what God’s gonna do as soon as I put myself in His sights...so, now all I need to pay attention to is: what do *I* have to do to get myself in range of ‘Home’.)
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:59 PM   #308
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Y
I don’t agree that ‘Jesus’ is an interchangeable name or word for ‘God’, and I don’t agree that ‘blood sacrifice’ is a spiritual or God Concept. To me, it is an entirely fallen-consciousness construct and, thus, Christ and Jesus-the-Christ would not ever be involved in any blood sacrifice of any kind. God did not, would not and never has sanctioned, demanded or required it; not for atonement, not for Forgiveness, not for devotion or worship. (All blood sacrifices throughout every Age came out of the mind of the Fallen Beings or the Antichrist – not God and not the Christ Mind.)
Hi Ronni,

I am trying to understand that if you do not believe Christ's blood was shed for the remission of sins, how you reconcile the direct words out of his mouth in which He claimed his blood was specifically poured out for the remission of sins.

In fact, one of the few rituals Christ instituted was the communion in which we specifically are commanded to drink wine in remembrance of Christ's blood which was shed for the remission of sins. Christ said this directly.

Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

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Jesus never taught ‘fear of God’, and any judgment forced upon us by God would violate God’s own Law of Free Will. If we trust Jesus’ words, then in any case we would not fear God but ‘the Son’ (Christ or Christ Consciousness), because Jesus said, “Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgments to the Son.”
I disagree as the text I am reading which has the words of Christ in red print, states that Christ said to fear God who can destroy both body and soul.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 2:28 AM   #309
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Hi Ronni,

I am trying to understand
Hi TheFinalWord,

It's a matter of either taking the Bible literally or seeking the deeper/hidden meanings. I accept also the Progressive Revelations of the Living Word.

Somewhere in this thread I've posted links to articles about the (Christian) Ritual of Holy Communion, and about the spiritual validity of 'blood sacrifice'.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 1:34 PM   #310
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Hi TheFinalWord,

It's a matter of either taking the Bible literally or seeking the deeper/hidden meanings. I accept also the Progressive Revelations of the Living Word.

Somewhere in this thread I've posted links to articles about the (Christian) Ritual of Holy Communion, and about the spiritual validity of 'blood sacrifice'.
Well, I believe that I also look for the deeper/hidden meanings, such as to study koine Greek to understand the context of the passages. However, and I mean no insult, what it sounds like you are proposing would require me to ignore the direct words of Christ.

For example, if I were to say, "Sally ran up the hill." I could study the context deeper by looking at surrounding text to understand perhaps what type of hill Sally ran up or maybe even how fast she ran, Sally's age, etc. But none of that would lead me to believe Sally did not run up the hill. Studying deeper is to study the context (cultural context, literary devices, original meaning) so that we can understand the passage more clearly. I do not see how studying deeper requires one to dismiss the clear, direct meaning of the text. Taking something literally does not necessarily mean to ignore context. Taking something literally is often proffered as a negative, close minded view. But that's not the case at all IMHO. For example, many passages in the bible are clearly figurative, anthropomorphic, or poetic. To read lines of poetry as they are were intended would be the literal reading, but it would not require one to ignore that they are poetry, like the book of Psalms.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 2:27 PM   #311
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Well, I believe that I also look for the deeper/hidden meanings, such as to study koine Greek to understand the context of the passages. However, and I mean no insult, what it sounds like you are proposing would require me to ignore the direct words of Christ.

For example, if I were to say, "Sally ran up the hill." I could study the context deeper by looking at surrounding text to understand perhaps what type of hill Sally ran up or maybe even how fast she ran, Sally's age, etc. But none of that would lead me to believe Sally did not run up the hill. Studying deeper is to study the context (cultural context, literary devices, original meaning) so that we can understand the passage more clearly. I do not see how studying deeper requires one to dismiss the clear, direct meaning of the text. Taking something literally does not necessarily mean to ignore context. Taking something literally is often proffered as a negative, close minded view. But that's not the case at all IMHO. For example, many passages in the bible are clearly figurative, anthropomorphic, or poetic. To read lines of poetry as they are were intended would be the literal reading, but it would not require one to ignore that they are poetry, like the book of Psalms.
I like this explanation. I'm open to different interpretations, but I struggle with how far to take it. I understand that reading is a subjective experience, but, at a certain point, some things are black and white. It's attractive to say there are multiple interpretations to anything, but teasing that out to its end is just as bad as being a straight literalist.

I was talking to a guy that is in divinity school to be an Episcopal priest, and he actually said he doesn't think it matters whether or not Jesus rose physically from the dead or there is life after death. I was kind of shocked at that. I didn't think those two ideas were negotiable. What is the point then? And if you don't think Jesus actually rose from the dead, why even take anything else in the NT seriously at all? I don't see any other way to interpret the Gospels other than Jesus rose physically from the dead.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 2:54 PM   #312
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What is the point then? And if you don't think Jesus actually rose from the dead, why even take anything else in the NT seriously at all? I don't see any other way to interpret the Gospels other than Jesus rose physically from the dead.
You are correct. The spiritual resurrection was taught by the gnostics (which means knowledge). Correcting their false teachings were at the heart of most of Paul's epistles.

The physical, bodily resurrection (which implies he died) is one of the main issues that separates the Abrahamic religions. To the Jews, Jesus was not the Messiah, to the Muslims, Christ was a prophet, but only appeared to die. To Christians, Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose physically from the dead.

It seems Christ explicitly made this point to the apostles by allowing the apostles to observe him, touch his body, and he also ate with them.

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”


Using Sally up the hill example, the apparent new method of interpretation would say Sally did not run the hill, as a spirit, she floated over the "hill" of oppression.

Now let's assume the passage said, Sally ran up the hill, stubbed her toe along the way, and acquired a few grass stains when she tripped. John saw her run up the hill, chased after her, but couldn't keep up and ran out of breath. I mean what else could we include in the passage to make it any more clearer the author is talking about a physical hill.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 6:39 PM   #313
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I'm open to different interpretations, but I struggle with how far to take it. I understand that reading is a subjective experience, but, at a certain point, some things are black and white. It's attractive to say there are multiple interpretations to anything, but teasing that out to its end is just as bad as being a straight literalist.
Hi BC1980.

I actually wasn’t saying that there are different yet equally valid interpretations. (TheFinalWord may have misunderstood me.) I do agree that some kinds of reading can be a subjective experience; but, if, for example, one is trying to get a grip on ‘the zero-point field’, then we need to bring our full objectivity. However, how I interpret Jesus’ life example is that we need to ‘go within’ and not ignore our own intuitive sense or ‘inner’ impressions and experiences. So, I apply these as well.
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Well, I believe that I also look for the deeper/hidden meanings, such as to study koine Greek to understand the context of the passages. However, and I mean no insult, what it sounds like you are proposing would require me to ignore the direct words of Christ.

For example, if I were to say, "Sally ran up the hill."
I could not be telling you to ignore the very words that we are talking about interpreting; so, no insult taken. .

Like you, I also want to have confidence in the English translation, so I’ve developed a preference for the Berean Bible versions, from which I take all my quotes. From the website for their Interlinear: The interlinear gloss is a word for word, Greek word order rendering based on the most reliable Greek sources. (Full disclosure: I also use an English translation of the Tanakh instead of just relying on Christian-based English translations for the Old Testament, and I refer to a KJV for both Testaments.)

That said, however, to me, using more and more versions of any already-translated-into-English language to confirm or reinterpret a different version of that same (already-translated-by-someone-else) language, is more likely to add layers of unnecessary complexity that can only carry a high risk of adding to our own obfuscation. (For sure I’d prefer to have the original Aramaic documents and to be highly fluent in Aramaic – because I think that translating is a rather subjective art as well as skill.)

One of my interpretations of both Jesus’ example and his words is that we need to use our intuition. [Because.] He must have been getting his spiritual information, knowledge and perspective from somewhere, that caused him to disagree with a lot of the Jewish teachings, rituals and traditions of the time – which view and attitude is, of course, ultimately what got him killed – and I cannot think from where else but his own intuition?

I’m not really seeing any constructive point to using a sentence like, “Sally ran up the hill,” to try to reach higher spiritual knowledge and truths. (Not that there isn’t such an argument, only that *I* can’t see its usefulness or validity for this purpose.)
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Taking something literally does not necessarily mean to ignore context. Taking something literally is often proffered as a negative, close minded view.
I’d actually go even further and say that it is always necessary to be aware of and retain context. However, there are people who take things literally even when the context requires not only logic and reason but also one’s own subjective experience and intuition. For me, all Sacred/Spiritual texts fall into this category – again, based on my interpretation of Jesus’ own example and words.

I’m not sure that anyone would disagree that a close-minded view is negative, but I don’t think that taking things literally is in and of itself negative – to me, it depends on the topic at hand and/or on one’s true goals for studying or discoursing on the topic in the first place.
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I was talking to a guy that is in divinity school to be an Episcopal priest, and he actually said he doesn't think it matters whether or not Jesus rose physically from the dead or there is life after death. I was kind of shocked at that. ... I don't see any other way to interpret the Gospels other than Jesus rose physically from the dead.
BC, I’m also not saying that there is nothing in the Bible that we cannot or should not take at face value. I do 100% believe that Jesus was arrested, tried, humiliated, tortured and crucified until he hung dead on the cross. I do believe that when they went to find his body in the tomb, it was not there. This, we Christians call the Resurrection of Christ. I think it happened this way, but then I choose to apply, to my best current abilities, my own spiritual knowledge, and logic and intuition, to come to some type of conclusion about whether or not it was a physical or a spiritual ‘event’.

Insofar as Jesus’ Ascension – a spiritually-significant ‘event’ that I think is too often ignored or minimized by far too many Christians – this one makes more sense to me than a physical resurrection...but only because I don’t, at present, believe that the spectrum or density of physical Matter in the Spiritual realms is the same as that found on Earth. That is, my own mind cannot wrap itself around the need for a dense-physical body in Heaven.


Thanks to you both, for allowing me to fix some of my own writings that were not clear. I’m not sure that this will be of any true help, but am willing to try again if there seems something more that might be useful.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 2:16 AM   #314
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Thanks for the reply!

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One of my interpretations of both Jesus’ example and his words is that we need to use our intuition. [Because.] He must have been getting his spiritual information, knowledge and perspective from somewhere, that caused him to disagree with a lot of the Jewish teachings, rituals and traditions of the time – which view and attitude is, of course, ultimately what got him killed – and I cannot think from where else but his own intuition?
The issue with this is He stated exactly where He got his information from. God the Father.

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

We have to be careful about trusting our intuition as we have a sinful proclivity and tend to create our own ideas about what is right and wrong instead of conforming to God's law.

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

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I’m not really seeing any constructive point to using a sentence like, “Sally ran up the hill,” to try to reach higher spiritual knowledge and truths. (Not that there isn’t such an argument, only that *I* can’t see its usefulness or validity for this purpose.)
The point of the illustration was to demonstrate that one does not need to create an abstract meaning of text, when the clear, plain meaning provides the simplest and more accurate representation. In science it's called Occum's razor. Go with the most parsimonious explanation unless proven otherwise. Christ clearly indicated His resurrected body was a physical body. There's no reason from the text to assume any differently. Therefore if I did anyway, I would not be gaining any new information, in fact I would be losing information about what occurred. For example, Jesus said in the passage above that we need to accept his words, that means taking a literal approach to His Words is the best choice to ensure I am fulfilling Christ's commandment.

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I’m not sure that anyone would disagree that a close-minded view is negative, but I don’t think that taking things literally is in and of itself negative – to me, it depends on the topic at hand and/or on one’s true goals for studying or discoursing on the topic in the first place.
Literally just means taking the text as it was intended to be taken. That approach provides the clearest and most salient meaning of the text.

For example, when I read the text you are writing on me. I am reading it literally...I am taking your words as it appears to me you intend for them to be taken. That's the most straightforward, rational way to read any text.

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Old 3rd December 2017, 6:46 AM   #315
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Hi TheFinalWord,

It's a matter of either taking the Bible literally or seeking the deeper/hidden meanings. I accept also the Progressive Revelations of the Living Word.

Somewhere in this thread I've posted links to articles about the (Christian) Ritual of Holy Communion, and about the spiritual validity of 'blood sacrifice'.
Hey Ronnie - I guess from my side I see things similar to the final word. I'm not following how you connect the "literal" what happened with the metaphorical deeper "spiritual truth" that is being conveyed.

I see there as being both a "literal" story of what happened - but then I see the spiritual layer in which this literal physical occurrence was meant to convey and represent a deeper spiritual truth. This is of course exactly what a parable is. A simple story in human form meant to explain something spiritual.

For me my interpretation is very simple. Physical blood in the story of christ represents the life essence or "spirit" so to speak of god.

His death represents the "consequences of sin". Right moral action leads to "life". Wrong moral action leads to "death". His death was thus symbolic of taking on the consequences of others wrong moral actions to relieve them of this "deathly" burden. His "spilling blood" so to speak is simply a metaphorical representation of that. Him sacrificing his "spirit" to restore us. Then his subsequent resurrection shows that through his "spirit" those who have sinned are redeemed and restored. The transcend the consequences of their sin\mistakes through his grace and are born anew into "eternal life".

It is essentially one of the oldest narratives in literature and mythology. Death and rebirth. The phoenix rising from the ashes. So for me this is the "spiritual truth" I take from the physical story. It is the "born again story". The one who is reborn must go through a "metaphysical death". Dying to sin - reborn to "god".

"Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” “How can a man be born when he is old? Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. "

I guess the thing I haven't understood from you is how you are connecting what physically happened - with what this was meant to represent spiritually. I may be completely wrong on this - but it seems like you want to change what physically happened so you can then adjust the "meaning" of the parable thus you are searching for alternative scriptures and translations. Can you explain to me exactly how you connect "what physically happened" with what it "spiritually represents". I think that would give me and also Finalword a better understanding of your view.

Last edited by Justanaverageguy; 3rd December 2017 at 7:27 AM..
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