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Old 5th September 2018, 4:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by minimariah2 View Post
well... considering the fact that you're 31 & have known fertility issues...

i'd say - go for it. HOWEVER.

i'm worried about your NEED for children. having children seems to be an absolute imperative for you and your biggest source of happiness - you keep mentioning childless acquaintances & friends, childless being the sole & main reason for their unhappiness. in most cases, for most childless people, that's actually not true = they're not unhappy BECAUSE they don't have children... the need for children usually comes as a result of their existing unhappiness (which is usually caused by other things & people in their lives), so they think children will give meaning to their lives.

my point is: whole lot of people out there who are parents and who really have no business being parents. just because you love your child, it does not mean that you're actually a GOOD parent. just because you want children, it doesn't mean that you should actually have them.

so question yourself once again WHY is it that you want kids and why do you "burden" them by putting your entire life happiness on them. personally - i waited until i was 35 but i had no fertility issues. also, kids weren't an imperative in my life. i could imagine few versions of my life, being happy - with or without children. i chose to wait because i got my medical degree at the age of 35, due to changing colleges and other life setbacks and that was my priority. i thought to myself: if kids happen for me, awesome. if they don't, awesome.

i had my daughter at 38, i had no extra treatments. i don't regret having my daughter just like i wouldn't regret NOT having her and just like i don't regret having her late. i wouldn't have her any sooner because it allowed me to have a decent job, to give her everything my parents gave me.

again, i'm a firm believer children shouldn't be your sole source of happiness, OR something that should make your life better or give your life purpose. it should be a bonus to an already happy life.

also, about the "i will not do the mistakes i think my parents did with me" - i LOL'd. when you have kids, come back here and LOL with me.
Oh no, I never even wanted kids until age 30 - 31. I do not expect I will even have kids at all, as not all women with pcos are fertile at any stage during their lives.

I am very happy without kids. I enjoy daily living. I have a lot I get excited about other than kids.

When I envision my future, I get excited about decorating a house I won, overseas travel, having the means to actually socialise etc etc..

Kids never come into it. There is a good chance I will never conceive.

Kids will be a bonus - but I know deep down that I will be happier with kids, than I would without. HAving children would be the best thing that would ever happen to me but I am already a happy person. A miserable person devoid of empathy and the ability to love the childfree life they had, will NOT be super happy JUST because they have babies

I know loads of parents who are less happy than I am

Kids will not make you makke, just the same way plastic surgery will not make one happy - unless you are already happy within yourself first... It is a recipe for disaster if you need ids or plastic surgeries in a futile attempt to MAKE yourself happy when you aren't already.....
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Old 5th September 2018, 9:12 PM   #32
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I think you have a pretty good attitude about it. As long as you are financially wise, don't get into big debt, and think independently, you should end up being a pretty good parent.



Kids increase stress, there's no doubt about it. You've got to be right in your head first before attempting it. I was surprised by getting pregnant and caught totally unprepared. Financially, I'm very well off. Mentally, not so much...and it has laid bare every worry in the back of my mind that I thought I had buried.
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Old 6th September 2018, 2:28 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by minimariah2 View Post
well... considering the fact that you're 31 & have known fertility issues...

i'd say - go for it. HOWEVER.

i'm worried about your NEED for children. having children seems to be an absolute imperative for you and your biggest source of happiness - you keep mentioning childless acquaintances & friends, childless being the sole & main reason for their unhappiness. in most cases, for most childless people, that's actually not true = they're not unhappy BECAUSE they don't have children... the need for children usually comes as a result of their existing unhappiness (which is usually caused by other things & people in their lives), so they think children will give meaning to their lives.

my point is: whole lot of people out there who are parents and who really have no business being parents. just because you love your child, it does not mean that you're actually a GOOD parent. just because you want children, it doesn't mean that you should actually have them.

so question yourself once again WHY is it that you want kids and why do you "burden" them by putting your entire life happiness on them. personally - i waited until i was 35 but i had no fertility issues. also, kids weren't an imperative in my life. i could imagine few versions of my life, being happy - with or without children. i chose to wait because i got my medical degree at the age of 35, due to changing colleges and other life setbacks and that was my priority. i thought to myself: if kids happen for me, awesome. if they don't, awesome.

i had my daughter at 38, i had no extra treatments. i don't regret having my daughter just like i wouldn't regret NOT having her and just like i don't regret having her late. i wouldn't have her any sooner because it allowed me to have a decent job, to give her everything my parents gave me.

again, i'm a firm believer children shouldn't be your sole source of happiness, OR something that should make your life better or give your life purpose. it should be a bonus to an already happy life.

also, about the "i will not do the mistakes i think my parents did with me" - i LOL'd. when you have kids, come back here and LOL with me.
I can also imagine a few happy versions of my life. I am quite happy accepting and embracing whatever happens

With respect... I don't think fertile people have any idea of just how painful it is, to be infertile and to have the option of conceiving taken away. It is a very odd and unique type of pain. The drive to have children is deeply inbuilt into some women (while not touching other women).

I am one of the women who unfortunately, has the very deep yearning for children and not just on a physiological level. I also yearn for the lifestyle. I want a little person attached at my hip at every turn who I clean, cook for and play games with. I am a big kid myself (everyone says this but for me it especially rings true).

I want a life of the higher highs and lower lows that come with motherhood. I want my life to come unstuck and become harder because as a podiatry student who worked two jobs at one stage during the degree, u thrive off meeting challenge has and feeling the burn so it contrasts to how good the satisfaction part feels.

So for me to likely have my choice to conceive taken away, sorry to say but NO, most women will NOT feel too happy about it. And in actual fact, even the most naturally happy, positive and energetic women who love living and genuinely find pleasure in the simple daily tasks - ANY woman who year-end for kids will feel a very deep sadness if they are forced to miss out on this experience. Even the women like me, who have a carer they are excited about I and who like their lives independently of whether they have off spring or not.

So I wouldn't say that I need kids to fill any void. That isn't how it feels. Being deeply sad of the ability to conceive ends up being taken away from me is not indicative of me "needing". Kids. It is just an awful, awful thing all around. Even very happy and content women are often grief stricken by infertility.

I wouldn't be throwing all caution to the wind and being open to conceiving now while we were poor - if I didn't truly feel that it is a massive priority. I love my degree and am very happy completing it. Having kids is just so important to some women and it doesn't have to be the only thing of value either; I certainly wouldn't have felt complete or like myself had I not gone to podiatry college. No other non degree related field ever felt like I was living y best life.

In the end, we all usually have a few things we require to feel our best. To be happy. Kids just happens to be one of a few things for me personally. But kids is probably one of the bigger things I need from that list, priority wise.

Last edited by Leigh 87; 6th September 2018 at 2:33 AM..
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Old 6th September 2018, 2:48 PM   #34
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Yeah small child can be raised on a budget. Extras (braces, lessons etc) will be at a time you’re better financially anyway.

For PCOS it’s interesting statistics, I haven’t looked into it. But ovarian reserve and mutations in any woman correlate with age regardless...

I have interacted with at least 2 couples that decided to be ‘childfree’ (gross term IMO), but later in life the men changed their mind. It was too late for the women to conceive so both ended up divorcing their wives and impregnating their next partners asap.. I guess that was crude awakening for the wives but reproduction besides survival is our strongest instinct ... just food for thought.

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IMO if you’re in stable relationship and can cover basic cost, waiting after 30 is foolish. You can save later but you can’t fix exhausted ovarian reserve. Also it’s grim but thinking about costs involved in taking care of disabled child (having one after 35 is very likely) greatly override the costs for a healthy child.

I am so glad you understand where I am coming from. I know I am not "old", but it is not as though I would be "choosing between" a career or having kids, or between being poor for life and having a baby (Or not).

I really doesn't seem like an either or choice.... I mean, we are very blessed to have family around and a good relationship. HE could go and earn 1500 plus a week now if he wanted but he is trying to get out of interstate truck driving long haul style trips BUT - the decent paycheck is there tomorrow, if he so chooses. He is transitioning out of it, and seeking normal 8 to 12 hour days, close to home with lesser pay - until he gets the capital to start a business or he gets in with the top 2 trucking companies that do reasonable hours/work life balance (the rest are 16 to 20 hour days and 100% UNSAFE - do not drive near trucks on the road, trust me....)

If we look at needs and wants for child rearing, wants are were the myth kids are expensive comes from. Piano lessons or braces are expensive but guess what, no one died of not having these. So it all comes to having roof over your head, nutrition and money for unexpected health costs. Everything else is optional.

By the time the kid was at the braces stage, we will be well off/comfortable as we have both worked very hard towards career goals that we are half way to achieving. We don't need another 10 years just to be financially secure. And I think that is when the braces would come in?!

It is only now, we would have no savings until I graduate and also work at least part time.

I small child may feel left out if he is too poor to.. well, leave the house and do anything other than eat sleep and attend school. But again - it is only the baby stages that we would be poor, I graduate within 2 years so....

It would just be very very tight, but again - we are in a stable relationship and we could feed the baby and get it medical care and clothes etc

PCOS is a disease that does not get worse with age necessarily - it is all over the shop, and age is NOT a factor in PCOS and the associated issues; some women get better as they age and have babies easier after taking ten years for their first, some of them get worse after babies while just as many of us PCOS sufferers remain with screwy hormones for our entire lives with no reprieve with age.

If anything and on average - PCOS afflicted individuals have a higher rate of pregnancy in mid to late 30s. It is common for a PCOS sufferer to be infertile throughout her 20s and 30s, only to spontaneously conceive in her very late 30s or early 40s.
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Old 6th September 2018, 3:12 PM   #35
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I guess that was crude awakening for the wives but reproduction besides survival is our strongest instinct...
but we're not controlled by our instincts, that's what separates us from other animals. i know a few men who decided to be childfree & never changed their minds... on the other hand, i know a man who dumped his wife with whom he has 3 children only to impregnate his mistress ASAP & now he has 3 more children with her. that being said, having a man's child won't make your marriage more secure. i don't believe you leave a happy & good relationship because you got overwhlemed by your instincts, i call BS.

changing your mind when it comes to children has more to do with a personal crisis & thinking a child will bring purpose to your unhappy life, more than anything else.

when someone doesn't want kids & maker that decision in their mature years, they usually DON'T change their minds and when they do, it's almost never for the right reasons but rather for fear of growing old alone & not have anyone left behind.

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I am one of the women who unfortunately, has the very deep yearning for children and not just on a physiological level. I also yearn for the lifestyle. I want a little person attached at my hip at every turn who I clean, cook for and play games with.
is adoption not an option for you?
just curious.

indeed, if you want something in life and you end up not getting it, you will grieve. but if and when it turns into your life losing its purpose because you didn't get that dream come true, it's a problem.

that's why i sad that having kids should not be one's purpose, nor should it be a way to keep a man around (referring to another post).
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Old 6th September 2018, 5:10 PM   #36
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Your view sounds rational but I’m a firm believer biology beats society any time.

My examples prove it: both guys i’m referring to were in perfect relationships besides the absence of kids. Both are still best friends with the former wives. First case: married for college sweetheart, she refused to have kids and he went along for 7 years. She start having dreams to travel, he wanted to settle - next GF was pregnant within months, married and got pregnant again within an year. Second case: first marriage for the guy in his late 30s, she was late 40s divorcee with two adult kids. He deeply regretted not having kids after 10 years of (happy) marriage with her, got pregnant his first partner after her within an year. Famous examples are there too (Brad Pitt/Jen Aniston, Ashton Kutcher/Demi Moore etc)

Adoption is a very different than having a biological child. Different needs are met.

Not encouraging anyone to have a kid to trap a guy, but to ignore kids factor in the longevity of a relationship is IMO a white lie with potentially destructive results.

Postponing kids for financial or other reasons is a decision with load of negative consequences vs the small inconvenience to raise a baby without extra expenses (e.g. expensive clothing that small kids don’t care about anyway etc)

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Originally Posted by minimariah2 View Post
but we're not controlled by our instincts, that's what separates us from other animals. i know a few men who decided to be childfree & never changed their minds... on the other hand, i know a man who dumped his wife with whom he has 3 children only to impregnate his mistress ASAP & now he has 3 more children with her. that being said, having a man's child won't make your marriage more secure. i don't believe you leave a happy & good relationship because you got overwhlemed by your instincts, i call BS.

changing your mind when it comes to children has more to do with a personal crisis & thinking a child will bring purpose to your unhappy life, more than anything else.

when someone doesn't want kids & maker that decision in their mature years, they usually DON'T change their minds and when they do, it's almost never for the right reasons but rather for fear of growing old alone & not have anyone left behind.



is adoption not an option for you?
just curious.

indeed, if you want something in life and you end up not getting it, you will grieve. but if and when it turns into your life losing its purpose because you didn't get that dream come true, it's a problem.

that's why i sad that having kids should not be one's purpose, nor should it be a way to keep a man around (referring to another post).
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Old 6th September 2018, 5:36 PM   #37
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You know for a fact Brad Pitt and Ashton Kutcher left their then spouses because the spouses wouldn’t/couldn’t have kids with them? The last I checked, Brangelina got divorced anyway, despite their having 3 adopted kids and 3 biological kids together. Not sure how long Ashton Kutcher‘s current marriage would last. Not saying this to be mean, but Hollywood couples get divorced as often as we drink coffee.

I actually know of a woman who was pressured by her husband into having kids. She was obese and had some health risks. She finally got pregnant in her early 40s after lots of efforts, and the hubby left her for another woman when the kid was barely a baby.

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Your view sounds rational but I’m a firm believer biology beats society any time.

My examples prove it: both guys i’m referring to were in perfect relationships besides the absence of kids. Both are still best friends with the former wives. First case: married for college sweetheart, she refused to have kids and he went along for 7 years. She start having dreams to travel, he wanted to settle - next GF was pregnant within months, married and got pregnant again within an year. Second case: first marriage for the guy in his late 30s, she was late 40s divorcee with two adult kids. He deeply regretted not having kids after 10 years of (happy) marriage with her, got pregnant his first partner after her within an year. Famous examples are there too (Brad Pitt/Jen Aniston, Ashton Kutcher/Demi Moore etc)

Adoption is a very different than having a biological child. Different needs are met.

Not encouraging anyone to have a kid to trap a guy, but to ignore kids factor in the longevity of a relationship is IMO a white lie with potentially destructive results.

Postponing kids for financial or other reasons is a decision with load of negative consequences vs the small inconvenience to raise a baby without extra expenses (e.g. expensive clothing that small kids don’t care about anyway etc)

Last edited by JuneL; 6th September 2018 at 5:41 PM..
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Old 6th September 2018, 5:48 PM   #38
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I had my first child at 32, 3 years into marriage. We both had good, steady jobs. Once I got pregnant (literally 2 weeks after stopping the pill) exH started to think, after telling me he'd always wanted a family for 3 years solid non-stop, that actually he's not so sure he wants to have kids anymore.

Too late at that point, obviously. I had my boy 10 weeks early, I spent 10 days in intensive care and baby spent 4 weeks in NICU. I took a longer mat leave than anticipated that I paid with my own savings. No help at any point from exH, financially or otherwise.

My naivety and cluelessness meant I stayed in that toxic, abusive, dysfunctional marriage long enough to fall pregnant a second time, by 'accident' (no details) one year into my PhD programme (on a fellowship with a job on the side) . I was implored by exH (and others) to abort. I couldn't. I had my daughter, took a year out on mat leave to look after her (9 months standard cover, 3 months with the rest of my savings). Again, no help from exH, financial or otherwise.

I left exH, took some time out to regroup after divorce (I still worked but took a break from my studies) then completed my PhD as a single parent. It hasn't always been plain sailing but all of it was worth it. No regrets whatsoever.

We now live in a great area, they both are gorgeous, bright, kind and funny kids, they go to great schools and the 3 of us are leading a happy, relatively stress-free life surrounded by a very solid support system.

The takeway from this for me has been that money comes and goes; if you have a reasonable nest egg or at the very least a way to provide and look after after a child, then you're fine. The best laid plans don't always come to fruition, but if you want to make it work, with resilience, positivity and hard work, there is always a way.

I hope things work out for you, Leigh.
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Old 6th September 2018, 5:51 PM   #39
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is adoption not an option for you?
just curious.
Leigh is in Australia and we have very few babies available for adoption. Most potential adoptive parents used to adopt from overseas, but not only is it prohibitively expensive, there has been a tightening of overseas countries attitudes to sending their babies to other countries.
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Old 6th September 2018, 6:05 PM   #40
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Extras (braces, lessons etc) will be at a time you’re better financially anyway.
Wow, wish that had been my experience. For a time, seemed we were always one need or medical adventure away from insolvency. Hard to tell the kids Santa's priorities this year is repayment of the health insurance deductibles...

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Old 6th September 2018, 9:24 PM   #41
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You know for a fact Brad Pitt and Ashton Kutcher left their then spouses because the spouses wouldn’t/couldn’t have kids with them? The last I checked, Brangelina got divorced anyway, despite their having 3 adopted kids and 3 biological kids together. Not sure how long Ashton Kutcher‘s current marriage would last. Not saying this to be mean, but Hollywood couples get divorced as often as we drink coffee.

I actually know of a woman who was pressured by her husband into having kids. She was obese and had some health risks. She finally got pregnant in her early 40s after lots of efforts, and the hubby left her for another woman when the kid was barely a baby.
Ugh your acquaintance's ex is a real bum...

For Brad and Ashton, both cases they left infertile spouse for fertile woman, maybe coincidental but looks like a pattern. Tom Cruise is another example... But anyway, I was just trying to illustrate a point that men can change their mind, women unfortunately can't... So postponing to risky age to get better financially is quite not worth it.

I am myself at a point to make this decision sooner than later, I'd hate take time off work but I guess we'll figure something out when the time comes I wish we met 10 years ago - it would have been so much easier healthwise, in terms of career stops, more energy etc, but well hard to turn back the time so I'll have to deal with it
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Old 6th September 2018, 9:25 PM   #42
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but we're not controlled by our instincts, that's what separates us from other animals. i know a few men who decided to be childfree & never changed their minds... on the other hand, i know a man who dumped his wife with whom he has 3 children only to impregnate his mistress ASAP & now he has 3 more children with her. that being said, having a man's child won't make your marriage more secure. i don't believe you leave a happy & good relationship because you got overwhlemed by your instincts, i call BS.

changing your mind when it comes to children has more to do with a personal crisis & thinking a child will bring purpose to your unhappy life, more than anything else.

when someone doesn't want kids & maker that decision in their mature years, they usually DON'T change their minds and when they do, it's almost never for the right reasons but rather for fear of growing old alone & not have anyone left behind.



is adoption not an option for you?
just curious.

indeed, if you want something in life and you end up not getting it, you will grieve. but if and when it turns into your life losing its purpose because you didn't get that dream come true, it's a problem.

that's why i sad that having kids should not be one's purpose, nor should it be a way to keep a man around (referring to another post).
I would be heartbroken. But I would still have meaning in life.

It just wouldn't be my first choice.

And while the grief would become manageable, I would still feel sad about not experiencing motherhood for my entire life. There would always be times where I felt a sad pang of the joy I know I missed out on.

I would be very happy without kids. I would just be happier with a healthy child.

I will never adopt it isn't my calling. With respect, you're not infertile so you have no place telling me that I should consider it, since you never had to go through infertility.

People who have or had the choice to conceive seldom adopt so why should infertile women have to do it? We aren't obligated to save other people's children just because we were robbed of our ability to conceive.

I want the actual lifestyle of raising a child and want to be a parent. But I just know deep down that I would lack the drive if I didn't start pregnant and doing it the natural way. The stress and lows of raising a child wouldn't be worth it without having the visceral connection that only occurs between mothers who gave birth. It is just something I know deep down. A gut instinct that adoption isn't for me.

It's an easy decision to remain childless over adopting. And this is if adoption was a possibility. It isn't possible to adopt in Australia. Very very very very very few couples adopt. More people are able to score the 99% u need to enter medical school than the numbers of couples who are approved to adopt.

Some women have a drive to experience pregnancy and birth and want the whole experience of creating their own child. They want the entire package and they don't feel adoption is something they feel passionate about.

I am frankly tired of fertile people telling me to "just adopt". As if they even have the slightest clue.
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Old 6th September 2018, 9:26 PM   #43
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Wow, wish that had been my experience. For a time, seemed we were always one need or medical adventure away from insolvency. Hard to tell the kids Santa's priorities this year is repayment of the health insurance deductibles...

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I think OP was referring to being poor when her kid is at toddler's age, well before understanding Santa's stories Medical expenses has always been my biggest fear too because of their impreditability...
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Old 7th September 2018, 5:54 AM   #44
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Hi OP. xH and I were 24 and 21 respectively when we married - recent graduates both. After two years of marriage I initiated the baby talk, and hey presto one month later we were pregnant!

We were still establishing our careers and our plans for life in general. No assets, no real financial plan... just winging it really. And then we had our daughter. TBH having her MADE us adult, and she was... is... so worth it!

We bought our first house when she was two, and took her on our first overseas family adventure shortly thereafter. First investment property when she was five, multiple more adventures, and so on... it was up every step of the way.

From what I can tell, you and your other half are positioning yourselves for future success through career and study choices now. A child won't necessarily stop you from following through on your goals. In fact, kids can be an impetus for ensuring success because they can make you strive harder for them.

Before I had my daughter I wanted a big family - dreams of a touch football team. But about year after having her I starting experiencing debilitating period pain - as in vomit inducing curl up in the foetal position paralysing pain. I eventually had a diagnosis of endometriosis. An exploratory confirmed it as stage V - riddled. I had it burnt out and one ovary removed due to a mans fist sized chocolate cyst. And then a hysterectomy.

If we'd have waited one more year... well, we'd have had no child at all.

My advice since to family or friends who have raised the issue is to have kids when you feel ready to have them, to love them, and to do right by them. All other goals - financial, career, etc - fade in comparison to that one. The others will fall into place when you've got the basics down.
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Old 7th September 2018, 1:17 PM   #45
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I would be heartbroken. But I would still have meaning in life.

It just wouldn't be my first choice.

And while the grief would become manageable, I would still feel sad about not experiencing motherhood for my entire life. There would always be times where I felt a sad pang of the joy I know I missed out on.

I would be very happy without kids. I would just be happier with a healthy child.

I will never adopt it isn't my calling. With respect, you're not infertile so you have no place telling me that I should consider it, since you never had to go through infertility.

People who have or had the choice to conceive seldom adopt so why should infertile women have to do it? We aren't obligated to save other people's children just because we were robbed of our ability to conceive.

I want the actual lifestyle of raising a child and want to be a parent. But I just know deep down that I would lack the drive if I didn't start pregnant and doing it the natural way. The stress and lows of raising a child wouldn't be worth it without having the visceral connection that only occurs between mothers who gave birth. It is just something I know deep down. A gut instinct that adoption isn't for me.

It's an easy decision to remain childless over adopting. And this is if adoption was a possibility. It isn't possible to adopt in Australia. Very very very very very few couples adopt. More people are able to score the 99% u need to enter medical school than the numbers of couples who are approved to adopt.

Some women have a drive to experience pregnancy and birth and want the whole experience of creating their own child. They want the entire package and they don't feel adoption is something they feel passionate about.

I am frankly tired of fertile people telling me to "just adopt". As if they even have the slightest clue.
While I in no way suggest that you should adopt - you're absolutely right, if that's something you feel is not for you, that's an entirely valid feeling.

However, I think minimariah didn't mean to suggest that you should just forgo having biological children, she was simply mentioning it as an alternative if by any chance you end up not being able to concieve.

Again if it's not for you, it's not for you, that perfectly fine.

But I do want to mention something from your post that caught my eye - I hope you're not romanticizing giving birth a little too much. To be honest, many mothers do not feel that natural, instant bond with their baby as soon as it comes out of them. Births can be difficult, they can feel exhausted, overwhelmed and not to mention that taking care of a newborn is incredibly difficult and often isolating. Many women experience PPD in some form, or at least "baby blues" from when their pregnancy hormones go down.

I have to tell you, my bond with my daughter grew by me taking care of her - feeding her, playing with her, cuddling her, staying up with her. And when I look at the bond we have now and the bond I had with her as a newborn and baby? It's so much stronger now.

So I wouldn't say that only mothers who give birth have a true visceral bond with their baby. There are many examples of birth mothers who are barely mothers at all.

Of course, this is not a post to convince you to adopt a child instead of having your own. Just my own two cents on the whole subject.

I truly wish you the best of luck with trying to concieve and having a baby!
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