Yes, I know that's not very descriptive, so here goes. (Hope you have a beer and some popcorn handy.)
My wife and I have been together for seven years, married for five. I'm 28, she's 27. Three years ago I decided to quit my job and go to college (I'm one of those nerds that skipped higher education out of high school, did very well, then decided that he hated typing for a living). After discussing this with her, I quit my $70k/yr development job, got a GED, and went to a local community college for two years before receiving a scholarship to a local private university. This was great for me, but left her holding the financial bag, so to speak, since all of my classes were offered during the day. I found enough contract jobs to keep about half of the bills paid, but wound up selling a couple of cars (though she still has a very nice one) and selling our house in favor of a less-expensive condo. (Actually good timing - a developer gave us more for it than we could have got on the market even in the best of circumstances.) We moved into the new place last August.
We've always argued; for awhile we hit a point where sex was rare, seemed like she didn't even want to touch me. Now I think this was, for the most part, due to the stress of her ridiculous schedule. (She works full time and decided to go to grad school, taking up to 12 hours a semester, at night when I started back to school.) I've also got a chemical imbalance (world's smallest violin, I know) and have had some pretty extreme emotional problems from time to time, culminating once in a half-hearted suicide attempt that was really a very mean cry for attention. The gist of all of this is that I was essentially the baby and she her mother, not a healthy relationship. Her parents have a similar arrangement; her father is so passive you could probably walk up to him and grab his wallet and walk slowly away without any sort of objection. This is obviously not healthy, in either marriage, since I relegated myself to being taken care of and her father won't stand up to his wife to save his life, which sets a bad example for L.
Last October, she asked me to move out. At first, I was sympathetic, and she cried, and I tried to be supportive, but after a few days I kicked and screamed and did everything in my power to avoid moving out. Finally, in December, I got an apartment, and we continued seeing each other several times a week, still sleeping together, etc, and things were, to be honest, better than they had ever been. I really thought everything was going to work out. Our fifth anniversary came and went in March, we had a very nice evening together and continued as if we were dating. I asked her at one point if I should be dating other people - our arrangement wasn't a marriage and couldn't last forever, and I was an idiot for pointing this out - and she, put on the spot, said yes.
Three days after the last time we made love (early May), I went on a date with another girl. We went out five times in six days, and never saw each other again. She asked me out to start with, not that it matters. We kissed but did not sleep together. L. called every evening when I was out with the other girl, and was very annoyed that I was seeing anyone else, saying such things as "You better not be spending our money taking that girl out." I didn't recognize this as jealousy at the time, nor would I have been receptive had I done so. I pretty much abandoned L, and I realize now that I was trying to have the type of relationship that I wanted with my wife with this other girl, behaving as if the new girl were L, which, of course, didn't work so well for the new girl.
Three days after my last date with the new girl, and a week and half after L. and I stopped sleeping together, L. came over in the middle of the night, distraught because she was so lonely and saying things like "no one ever touches me. I miss being touched." She put her head on my shoulder, cried and told me over and over again that she loved me "so much." I was moved, but still caught up in the other relationship I had yet to realize had evaporated out from under me, and used that as a way to avoid focusing on my real priority.
I encouraged L. to start dating again, and she's started seeing some guy from school who I was, at one point, sure she was cheating on me with. I know now that was a mistake on my part, but I still hate the jerk, not that it matters. She talked to me repeatedly about him (we had agreed to be friends, and I was trying to be supportive) and she said things like "He so does not have it together" and "I don't see myself getting serious with this guy." I told her "You don't have to marry him you know. Just have fun." God, I'm an idiot.
On June 6, we filed for divorce. I regret that now more than I am capable of expressing.
So, two weeks I was in San Francisco on business (I'm from Texas) and talking to L. when I hear the dogs going crazy in the background. She asks me to hang on, then says that she'll call me back in a minute. Five minutes later she calls and informs me that this guy just randomly showed up on her doorstep with a bottle of vodka and that they were going to watch a movie. He had come over the night before and enjoyed the same activity. I don't believe they slept together based on conversations and evidence seen since (yes, I was an ass and counted the condoms - I know, I'll burn in hell. Believe me, no one can make me feel worse about this.) I stewed over that all night, sent a few nasty emails to her since I couldn't get to sleep, and called her the next morning to apologize and ask her not to read the emails. Part of our conversation (we had several that day) went llike:
Me: "I don't want a divorce. I never wanted a divorce."
Her: "How can I believe you? We've been back and forth on this so many times."
Notice that she didn't say "I don't care" or " too bad" or "I'm sorry you feel that way." three months ago I almost moved back in after we agreed that was the best way to fix our relationship, but chickened out
Me: "You're right. There's nothing I can do to convince you."
More small talk and we got off the phone.
Two hours later I felt as though I had been struck in the head by lightning. I DIDN'T want a divorce. I DIDN'T want to see other people, DIDN'T want her to see other people. The thought of another man sitting on my couch, making out (which she admitted) with my wife, petting my dog and sleeping in my bed (which she flatly denies, and I choose to believe her, though my heart has misgivings) drove me wild, but not because of him: because I still love her, more than the trees love the rain or Mercury its endless race around the sun.
I started crying in the middle of a training class, and excused myself. I tried to call her but my phone malfunctioned. I was overwhelmed by the thought that, if they went out again that night (Friday), she would sleep with him and there would be no chance of our reconciling. I attempted to borrow a phone from one of my coworkers but it took another hour and a trip to the airport (we were schedule to leave that afternoon) to find a working phone and a signal. (More drama deleted here due to space constraints.) I called her on a borrowed phone, crying in the San Francisco rental car tram station, and she answered, surprised that I was calling from an unknown number.
"Hello?"
me: "Hi."
"Oh, hi! I didn't recognize the number."
me: "I know, I'm calling on Bill's phone. Listen, you got a minute?"
her" "Sure. What's up?"
me: "I know you said that you couldn't believe me, when I said that I didn't want a divorce. Would you give me a chance to prove it to you?"
silence.
her:" I don't know. This is very sudden."
me" I know it is, and I know it's not fair, but I feel like I have to tell you how I feel right now or there will never be another opportunity. I'm sorry for laying this on you. But, I needed you to know how I feel."
silence.
her: "I have to think about this..."
me: "I know."
her:" Can we talk when you get back into town?"
me: "Sure. I'll be home late."
her: "I'll be up. You can call me."
me: "Okay. I'll talk to you soon. 'Bye."
her: "Bye."
Continued...
Last edited by greenshift; 27th June 2005 at 1:04 AM..
I flew back, called her at 1am just to say that I made it back in one piece, and took her out to lunch the next day. She looked great, I looked great, we had lunch and chatted for about an hour before she stopped and said,
"So, what's your proposal?"
I have a fairly good command of the English language, and I made my case as eloquently as possible. In the end, she cried, held my hand, and said "Okay."
We made plans for the following Thursday. She is still dating this other guy, which is driving me bonana[sic?].
On Monday, I was driving my her place, partly to check on her (yes, I know this is bad) and saw HIS car outside. I called her, she told me she had a date (she had lied about it earlier that day when we talked on the phone) and I flipped out. He took off, I went over, and she was more angry than I have ever seen her. I pleaded with her not to see him again, and she said that she couldn't, that she wouldn't stop, that I couldn't expect her to throw away all the "progress" she had made in the past few months at being okay just because I had suddenly changed my mind. She was right. I was crazy.
She said, "If you don't leave RIGHT NOW, I'm not coming over tomorrow.(We had rescheduled for Tuesday since I thought Thursday was too far off). I argued with her for another 30 minutes. She said, "If you don't leave RIGHT NOW, I'm not coming over tomorrow. I don't even know why I'm saying this, since I told you the same thing thirty minutes ago!"
I, somehow, forced myself to stand, turn, and leave.
On Thursday, I made dinner, learned to dance, and cleaned my place from top to bottom, had a wonderful candlelit dinner. She wanted to go to a movie instead of out dancing like I had planned (she always wanted to go dancing but I was self-conscious. I had enough not to look stupid just for this evening), but she held my hand through the movie and kissed me goodnight. She told me over and over again how wonderful a time she was having.
God, this is a long story.
She said that we should go out again on Friday, so we did. She came over, brought dinner, and we watched a bunch of the new Doctor Who episodes, while spooning on the couch. She kissed me goodnight again, more like a real kiss this time.
On Saturday, we went apartment shopping for me (my six month lease is up) and she made breakfast and we ate it by the pool at her place. This morning she called me and asked me to come over for breakfast. We went out and had a wonderful time. Then, I went crazy again, and had to bring up the other guy, knowing that one of her friends had set her up to meet a friend of her husband next weekend. This was driving me nuts.We argued about it, she got mad, but I managed to calm things down before leaving. We left on good terms, and tomorrow I'm going over there for a date. To help me cope, she wrote me a note that says:
1. YOU ARE special.
2. I CARE about YOU
3. My relationship with you and decisions about "us" is not affected by anyone else or my dating others.
4. You are so beautiful to me.
I'm telling myself:
1. If she didn't love me, she wouldn't have agreed to date me again in the first place.
2. She's just protecting herself by seeing other guys, trying to keep from getting too involved again too fast. She did say, "I can't see myself getting emotionally involved with anyone for at least the next few years." I said, "I don't think I can handle this for the next few years." She said, "That doesn't include you, obviously." My father thinks this means that she's still in love with me. She even said, at one point, "You've got me, emotionally, but you have to convince my head, not my heart, that we can do this, that we can be different."
3. She holds my hand everywhere I go. She bought me a relationship book that she loves, and that, I have to say, sounds as if it was written about US. She kisses me goodnight.
I know some of her friends are wishing her luck, some are telling her how stupid she is for giving it another shot. (i think you can divide these into "Married" or "Single/Divorced," respectively. Why is that?)
Everyone keeps telling me to give her space, be strong, be assertive, pretend these other guys don't exist, and let her come to me. Don't push, don't obsess, don't call too much, drive by, or email too much.
What do you all think? Is there hope? What should I do?
And so concludes my latest novel. If you finished, you get a little gold star.
You're definitely a very articulate writer, I'll give you that !!
I, too, would be bothered by the fact that she's dating other men.......while also dating you. What's that all about? Is it that deep down she married you young and wants to see if the grass is greener on the other side but keep you around in case she learns it's not that green?
So your divorce isn't final, right? So it was filed in June - is it now still in the process of going through? Have you discussed that with her? Can it be 'stopped' because you 2 are dating and seeing where this goes?
It's interesting that she says she won't be ready to get seriously involved with someone for a couple of years......is she really saying she doesn't see getting back with you? I know she said that didn't pertain to you but if she was hoping to reconcile with you, the issues of getting involved seriously with someone other than you would be a moot point, no?
Would she be willing to go for marriage counselling? I think that would be important for you both - to deal with all that's gone on, the hurts you must both feel still, the uncertainty of where things stand.
Can you carry on like this for some time? what if she continues to date these other men and ends up falling in love with someone and it turns serious? Where will that leave you? I'm just afraid you'll be clinging to hope and then find out she's in love with someone else?
Why must she date other men if you 2 are dating? Why must she be with other men (I'm not saying sexually)? Is it that important to her?
You are in massive head games right now. The ONLY way to fix this is if you two goto a marriage counselor right away. Talk to her, tell her you are going to one and you would really like her to join you. Find a licensed one and call them today or this week.
Right now it's just going in circles, but in the end she is going to have to make up her mind. She can't have both of you. She'll have to stop all contact with this guy if she wants to be with you. Don't bring up the other man right now, just talk to her about the counseling.
You two have had major problems way before all this started, alot of it is communication issues. The issue isn't really this 'other guy' right now, it's with all the things that were going on between you two before then. Granted having this guy compounds the problem, but let the counselor tell her that she needs to drop him if she wants the problems worked out between you two.
She is confused, just like you are. Very good chance what they have is not going to last. However in the mean time go schedule an appointment with the counselor. She wants action, not just words or showings of affection. This is how you accomplish it.
I’m not sure if I would date her, while she’s dating other guys. The situation actually rewards her for not making a decision about the relationship. If she doesn’t make a choice, she can date other guys and still have you in her life. And it’s tearing you apart too. You’re stuck in limbo.
My advice.
Tell her you love her, you want to work on the marriage, but you feel that it can’t be done in the current situation. Tell her that when she’s decided to give up dating other guys, and is ready to work on the marriage, then to give you a call. Then walk out of her life and don’t look back.
What you need to do is work on yourself right now. See a therapist, learn to adjust and learn how to be a whole person without depending on anyone. From what I’ve read you admit to a lot of emotional problems, yet I see very little work being done to correct this. How can you work on your marriage, or any new relationship for that matter without first working on yourself.
After you’re done (months, years, who knows) you’ll be better prepared to live with her decision. Or maybe the choice will have been made before then. Either way you’ll be strong enough to handle it.
The way I see it, neither one of you are ready for the amount of work that would be needed to repair this marriage. You want to put the marriage back together without having the tools for the job, and she is just treading water hoping a choice will get made for her.
Email her the link to this thread. Let her read everything you have laid bare here & ask her, simply, to join you at the counselor's office.
Since you have demonstrated a pattern of passivity and indecision - I would suggest that YOU find a marriage counselor and set an appointment 2 weeks away - simply tell her what time and that you would really love to see her there. Take care of the bililng, etc. well before hand so that she can see you mean what you say, and are ready to take some serious charge of your emotions here.
Good luck to you.
__________________
"I do," "I'll never lay a hand on you," and "The check's in the mail" are my favorite lies.
I understand the various points of view here, but I think you have to consider the fact that this turnaround on my part happened less than a week ago. To ask her to put herself in the situation where she'll have to through the heartbreak that we've been through over the past few months based on a few days of modified behavior would be, well, selfish, and pushy, and we all know that pushing someone, pressuring them never works.
This has to stop, but if I try and make it stop right now, by any method, it's just going to worsen the situation.
Counseling is the answer here. Trust us. Just tell her that you are setting up a time for yourself and you would like her to attend. There is no pressure then, that is her choice. If she chooses to do so, then you know she is serious about fixing things with you. If she's not then either she's not or thinks this is all going to work itself out in the end (which it won't).
You can't force her to go but you can make steps in the right direction. Doing what you are doing now is only going to have a negative outcome for you both.
Already suggested, and she did not react well. I know that's what we need - believe me, I am on board. Still, she's warming up to me very quickly and, knowing her as I do, I don't think it will be long before she's willing. I'm already seeing a counselor by myself, which is helping a great deal. Even my counselor advised me to gently nudge, but not push her to move too quickly. I can be patient. I'll just crazy around my friends instead of around her. =(
I think suggesting and doing are two totally different things. Perhaps you can ask your counselor for a referral to a marriage therapist (someone other than your personal counselor so it's neutral), and set up an appointment. Like Jmargel said, just tell her when it is and that you'd love to see her there.
Keep nudging her but I would make it very clear to her that this is both your marriage and having another guy involved only makes things worse. That you can't concentrate on the problems between you two when there's another guy out there. Personally I would give her the ultamatium, either him or you. You don't have to be mean or loud about it to get your point across, just tell her. Then be prepared to follow through depending on what she says.
If you keep nurturing her and allowing her to do this it's only going to have a bad outcome for you. I think you know that in your heart. Good chance she's seeing this guy because of what she felt when you dated that girl. Seeing others is NOT the way to mend a marriage.
I understand and agree. To be honest, we've been spending so much time together lately that I don't think she's had time to see anyone else. Still, that's not the point. I've told myself that I'll give it a month and, if she's still not willing to be exclusive, then I'll have to make a decision (and I know what that decision is, just having a hard time articulating it.) I don't want to be anyone's doormat - too much self respect for that, but, like you said, she's probably doing this because of the way she felt when I was dating. I feel like I owe her some room, at least temporarily.
Besides, I'm so much better looking than that guy I can't even begin to describe it. =) Rome wasn't built in a day. This needs to be her idea - won't work coming from me.
It doesn't matter if it comes from her, and giving her space? If you ask/want her to only be with you and she agrees, it's the same as her coming upto you and saying 'I decided not to see him anymore I want to work on us'.
And it doesn't matter if you are better looking, you don't seem to get it. You two are lacking things from each other and it's not looks. That's why you two are fighting so much and it has esculated to this. You both need to work on your communication to each other and express what YOU need and what SHE needs. If she's not willing to go through with it, then tell her to leave.
Your marriage is only going to work if you both put 100/100 into it. How can you expect to fix the problems between you two when another guy is around?
I don't. I expect to get her to ditch the other guy on the way to working on our marriage.
I have no illusions about having a happy relationship while she's seeing other people. However, I also know that, based on what I know of the situation and details that I probably haven't relayed, that giving her an ultimatum, today, can only have one outcome, and it's not what I want.
Just pretend I'm doing exactly what you say, but in slow motion, because that is, effectively, what's happening here.
So then call her bluff. You really think she is going to walk? When everything is on the line? Why would she ditch this guy when you are accepting and tolerating it? If she's going to walk now then she's going to walk in the future.
Quote:
I expect to get her to ditch the other guy on the way to working on our marriage
On the way to working on your marriage? When will this be? She's not working on it now. "Forsaking all others" is a big part of your marriage vows, as you know. I'm not trying to attack you it's just I am kinda in a similiar situation. I thought my wife would walk when I told her to leave. I got the opposite response.
Your marriage can't be worked on until she tells this guy it's over. Otherwise she's just using you as a safety net while she has her fun. I know you are trying to rationalize here, I've done the same thing. It doesn't work though. You didn't get her because you waited around while she had fun with other men. You got her because she respected you, she fell for all the good you possess.
Read NiceGuyMojo's post and see where his adventures took him. He too was hestitant about putting his foot down, now that he finally did things are starting to happen.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
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