[njcky]

I am recently married. My husband and I are so happy, dispite the difficulties we are having from his x-wife. His x has left us with a lare dept that we can not pay. Our only option in bankruptcy. My husband and I are looking at it as a new start. We will be able to get out from under the dept we aquired before we got married.

But the other day I was talking to my mom about something we were going to file barkruptcy on and she said that it was dishonest.

My husband had a vasectumy three years ago. We desparetly want a child of our own. We know we are going to have to file bankruptcy. I told my mom that he was going to get the vasectumy reversed and then we would put it on the bankruptcy too. My husband and I dont have a lot of money. This is our only chance. If we dont do it before the bankruptcy, knowone will give us a loan for seven year to have the vasectumy reversed. We were wanting a child sooner than seven years. What if we do wait seven years, and we still are not able to get the money, or the reversal procedure is inaffective becuase it would have been 10 years since he had his vasectumy. What if, and this really scares me, something tragic happens to my husband. Not only do I lose him, but I would not have any right to see is two children from his previous marriage. Those are the only children I may ever have, and they are not really mine. I do not have any rights concerning them.

Is this dishonest of us. Should i wait and see what happens and hope that the chance in there is seven years to have a child. Or should i do what I have to now to get a baby that is so precious. Help

[bluechocolate]

I am slightly confused. Are you saying that you're going to pay for the reversal operation ( on credit I assume ) and then claim bankruptcy?

Is this dishonest of us.(?)

Of course it is. You're taking on a new debt with the full knowledge that you can't, and more importantly, won't pay it.

What are the success rates for a vasectomy reversal? Is it possible that you do this and the operations doesn't work anyway? I don't know bankruptcy law, but it sounds to me that what you are planning to do must be breaking some law(s)? What are the consequences if your deception is discovered? Have you fully explored all the options? Are you absolutely positive that there are no alternatives to paying for this reversal? Are there any charities that might help people out in a situation like yours? Are you sure that there aren't clinics that will take cases such as yours on a no-fee basis?

I honestly am not sure what I would in your situation and I'm not judging you - but the answer I'm afraid is - yes - this is dishonest.

[Tony T]

I doubt you will find someone who will perform this complicated procedure without verifying that you have funds in advance. However, if you do have it done and file for bankruptcy shortly thereafter, you may not be able to discharge this debt if the doctor or hospital appeal it. This is elective surgery and therefore could be easily proved that you committed fraud upon the bankruptcy court by engaging this debt with the knowledge that you would be filing bankruptcy. Not only would this debt not be discharged but, in some instances, you could go to jail.

Proceed at your own risk but please don't come to a message board for clearance to do something dishonest or illegal. If you seek further clarification, talk to your bankruptcy attorney. If you don't have one, get an appointment for a consultation soon and pose this question. It would save you a LOT of heartache down the road.

[Papillon]

The most important thing is: If you have to file for backruptcy, then surely you cannot afford to have a child and provide for him/her the way he/she deserves?

[Oprah]

Originally posted by Papillon
The most important thing is: If you have to file for backruptcy, then surely you cannot afford to have a child and provide for him/her the way he/she deserves?

HA!!! You don't know much about America! Lots of people who can't afford children have them. The government, both Federal, state and local, has many programs that throw money at people who have children, and the poorer they are the more money they get. Babies would be dying in the streets without these government hand-outs. The unfortunate part is that some people have babies in order to get money for their drug and other bad habits and little goes for the benefit of the child or children. There are some who have babies just for the steady income. Of course, there are people who legitimately need the assistance.

[HokeyReligions]

1. Yes, it is fraud.
2. Its 10 years before the bankruptcy drops from your credit score, not seven.
3. There is no guarantee that the reversal surgery will be effective

Talk to some credit counselors before you file bankruptcy. Get your finances situated and get help to make a financial plan/budget and stick to it.

Talk to some charities about help to get the surgery reversed. Will insurance cover any part of it?
Discuss adopting his children and what legal rights you may have regarding them in the event of your husbands death--talk to an attorney about this.

Please don't do something illegal. Misuse, abuse, and fraud are leading causes why medical care, insurance, and interest rates are always on the rise. I don't want to pay more for my insurance or higher interest rates because people think its okay to run up charges and file bankruptcy so they don't have the pay the debts they create.

[Julie McCoy]

Wow, I cannot believe that you even need to ask this question! The very fact that you don't know whether or not it's unethical to plan to charge a huge expense when you're intending to file for bankruptcy indicates that you're not someone who should be having children at all! What would you teach your children -- that it's ok to lie and cheat if it's for something that you really really want?

Having children is no one's right. It's a privilege and it entails a LOT of responsibility. You knew your husband had had a vasectomy. Yes, they're reversible sometimes, but it always costs money. It's not like this was something that just came up from out of the blue. If having kids was that important to you, why did you marry someone with no money who was, in his current state, unable to have children? You also knew that your husband was burdened with debt from his former marriage. You took on that responsibility by choosing to marry him. You're not being responsible for the debt you and he already have by adding to it. The purpose of bankruptcy is to allow people who, for reasons beyond their control, got into debt they can't get out of by themselves. If you do this you are choosing to be irresponsible. There is no excuse for that. Don't kid yourself that your desire for children justifies it.

Being a good parent is not just about loving your kids. It's not just about yearning for children. It's about being responsible for their welfare and setting a good example. There is no way you two will be setting a good example for your step-children, and any children you might have yourself, if you knowingly defraud a doctor and hospital just so that you can have what you want.

[tiki]

Leave the baby-having to the people that can afford it. You don't need to have a baby and expect to be carried by the US government. Oprah is right, and it is sad that the US is 'built that way'.

Now the US consitution states that each man can be given another chance and freed from debts. You must be honest. Don't run up big bills and expect to be freed from debt, that's *not* the point. That's what DEFINITELY raises our costs, whether it be taxes, insurance premiums, whatever.

I'd do whatever it took to keep from filing bankruptcy. Live as sparingly as possible. If you are that broke, you wouldn't have a computer or online access. Just an assumption.

Good luck and whatever makes you sleep at night...

peace!

Some outstanding points have been made in response to your post (question), njcky.

What I'm curious about is......this assertion that his ex wife left him all this debt. By any chance, does he have children from that marriage? So are you both considering, by chance, child support and/or alimony he has to pay, as part of this debt? If he does have children from his past marriage (which I'm assuming he has....for some reason), how many children?

Why would YOU knowingly get involved with someone who supposedly is a financial mess? Why would you MARRY someone in this situation? Do you think that was smart? And you want to have children with a guy who obviously couldn't handle his finances, such that he's considering filing for bankruptcy? Gee, what a swell way to start off a new marriage. Not.

Of course I could be wrong...but when they divorced, I'm assuming they had lawyers....so how did he supposedly get such a short end of the stick in terms of all this debt "because of" his ex wife? Can you explain that? (sorry but it sounds like a bit of a cop-out to me.)

Does your husband WORK a full time job? Or an additional job on weekends if that's what it takes to pay down the debt? If not, why not?

If you are even considering filing bankruptcy....do you know how that's going to impact you for several years to come? And you want to possibly bring a BABY into that? Do you know how much it costs to PROPERLY care for a baby? I'm not talking designer clothes and top of the line strollers and such....I'm just talking about the basics. If part of his "past debt" is related to child support of kids he has with his ex wife, he has no business even considering bringing more children into the world....IMO. Do you know the impact bankruptcy has? It ruins your credit for 7 yrs. You will have a helluva time finding a place to rent, getting a phone, or the most basic things that require the company to do a "credit check" on you.

And yes, like someone already asked....what on earth were you thinking when you married someone who could not have children? Even with a reversal, there's only a 50% chance it will be successful, and even then, it can take 5 years to find out if it's worked.

If children are something you've wanted, why did you get involved with and MARRIED TO somene who was basically neutered? That doesn't make any sense.

And like others have pointed out......if you go through with this "scam".....they'll see when it was you had the vasectomy done.....and it will be more than apparent he had this elective procedure done with the intent of filing for bankruptcy thereafter.

According to your profile, it says you're a "teacher." If that's true, where are your ethics? Why would you even have to ASK if doing this was right or wrong? Of course it's wrong. You made the choice to marry a financial f*ck-up, and one who was surgically altered (to not be able to have kids). You are going to have to live with those choices you made, the both of you.

Maybe you're going to have to majorly cut costs.......in order to slowly save up the money (even if it takes 5 yrs) for the reversal surgery. If that means luxuries like TV cable, internet, dining out, fast food, etc, then it's what you have to do.

[njcky]

Are you all for real. Why did I marry him? Because I love him. Why did you marry your spouse? Did it matter that he had financial problems or that we would have to pay to have a child of our own? No. Would any of you have not married your spouse if he or she could not have given you a child? You don't know the situation. I was hoping to reach a group of understanding people who know what it is like to middle class and poor. I was also wanting to reach people that have been in our situation and could offer some advice, or alternatives. I was looking for comments from people who know what it is like to deparetly want a baby. I will be a wonderful mother. Would you not steal food for your children if it was the only way to feed them? What is dishonest, and what is not? My husband works full-time. In a year I will finish school and I will work full-time. We can pay our bill, his child support and for another child. However, we can not pay his x-wifes bills (that she agreed to pay for in the divorce settelment and has been found in contempt for not paying) and doctor's fees for the proceedure. You are right, I had not considered that it was illegal. We will meet with our lawyer and talk to her about this. I grew up poor and we had very little. But my brother and had love. We always had food on the table and clean clothes. My husband and I are not rich by any means, but we are better off than our parents were. Put yourself in our shoes for a moment. Put yourself in mine. His children will never call me mommy. I was not there when they were born. When his daughter gets married, it will be is x who takes her dress shopping. It is his x's right and honor. She is their mother and I will never be that. All I can do is love them as if i were. But how do I get to be a mother. Does anyone have a solution?

[Tony T]

"Why did I marry him? Because I love him. Why did you marry your spouse? Did it matter that he had financial problems or that we would have to pay to have a child of our own?"

People can fall in love all day long. That's only a fraction of the reason people get married. Marriage is a BUSINESS, a BUSINESS that a male and female (usually) agree to get into together. Love usually starts it off but the fact is that if there's no money, no common interests, an absense of the appropriate qualities, the marriage (business) is going to tank pretty fast. It takes a whole lot more than love to make a good marriage last.

Financial difficulties are run the love meter down the fastest. Money problems rank right up there in the top three reasons people get divorced. I urge you to get some good books on marriage and relationships and learn more about what they're all about before you go any further.

I think you've gotten some excellent advice above. First, you're wanting to screw the doctor and other medical personnel by smashing their bill for a vasectomy reversal into a bankruptcy. Then you're wanting to deny that you have a lot of problems to deal with in terms of bringing a child into a marriage that's ill prepared to deal with a whole lot within budget. Life is just way too short to be worrying about money items when you don't have to. You've got a lot more years to live on this planet. Make them happy ones by planning your life out in a practical matter.

I'm sorry you had to learn it hear. Love is what brings people together initially but it can never keep them together if so many other things are missing.

[CaterpillarGirl]

Have you considered other alternatives? Adoption? Artificial insemination?

I agree that it is clearly unethical to proceed with your plan. Your integrity would be severly damaged.

I think that the other posters are questioning your decision to marry this man because of your prior knowledge of your situation. Some couples disagree on whether to have children, and it is a deal-breaker for them. You responded that of course you would marry someone you loved regardless of whether or not you would have children from this marriage. Well, it appears you may not have them. I guess the question is "Is having children a HUGE priority in your life?" If so, you might have negated this possibility with your marriage and you need to deal with those consequences. I also agree that perhaps you've rushed into this marriage. It might have been wise to wait until you were working full-time and he had substantially lowered his debt from his previous marriage. That way you could have begun your marriage on more stable terms. And you would have had time to discuss the possibility of having children with him in more depth.

[Julie McCoy]

Originally posted by njcky
Are you all for real. Why did I marry him? Because I love him. Why did you marry your spouse? Did it matter that he had financial problems or that we would have to pay to have a child of our own? No. Would any of you have not married your spouse if he or she could not have given you a child?

No one is saying that you shouldn't have married the man you loved. But you knew that marrying him meant accepting certain conditions. Do I sympathize with your predicament? To a considerable extent, yes. But does that justify what you're contemplating? No way!

You don't know the situation. I was hoping to reach a group of understanding people who know what it is like to middle class and poor.

We can only know what you tell us, and people have responded based on what you've told us. Being professionals who earn decent salaries (or who soon will) but not having enough money to do the things you want to do is certainly something that many people can sympathize with, but that doesn't mean that people would condone doing something that is without question dishonest.

I was also wanting to reach people that have been in our situation and could offer some advice, or alternatives. I was looking for comments from people who know what it is like to deparetly want a baby.

I know what this is like. I want badly to be a mother myself. I recognize that the time isn't right for me, and that there is a possibility that the right time might never come for me. As I've said, it takes more than yearning for a child and an ability to love them to be a good parent. You need to be responsible for your own actions and knowingly taking on a debt that you will not be able to repay is not responsible. Despite what you might feel or want to believe, you're not entitled to a child, and if you've made choices that make having a child difficult, you'll just have to live with that. What on earth makes you so special?

I will be a wonderful mother. Would you not steal food for your children if it was the only way to feed them? What is dishonest, and what is not?

No, you see, it's this mentality that I just don't get. You seem to think that having a child is your right, and if circumstances make it difficult then it's okay for you to break the rules. You're not talking about a child that you already have and must care for. You're talking about deliberately undertaking to deceive, so that you might conceive a child, knowing in advance that for the time being and foreseeable future you lack the resources to provide for the child. That right there indicates you've got a crippled sense of ethics, and I can't help but wonder what kind of example you'd be setting for children.

But that's not the worst of it. You and your husband will be filing for bankruptcy. Even if you do somehow get the vasectomy, and it's successful and you get pregnant, how exactly will you be providing for this child? It's expensive to have a baby -- even if you have health insurance. How are you going to get all the things one must have for an infant -- car seat, stroller, etc? Ever check out the prices? Talk to some people who have kids about how expensive diapers, and formula, babyfood, etc. are. Talk to some parents about how expensive childcare is (since you and your husband both intend to work) -- and how much MORE expensive GOOD childcare is. Yet you cannot even meet your current financial obligations. How, exactly, will you be a good mother?

My husband works full-time. In a year I will finish school and I will work full-time. We can pay our bill, his child support and for another child.

But not without filing for bankruptcy first.

However, we can not pay his x-wifes bills (that she agreed to pay for in the divorce settelment and has been found in contempt for not paying)

Then they're not your debts and you shouldn't be having to file for bankruptcy. I'm sorry but with the information you've provided, this doesn't make sense.

I grew up poor and we had very little. But my brother and had love. We always had food on the table and clean clothes. My husband and I are not rich by any means, but we are better off than our parents were.

Congratulations. On the other hand, did your parents ever file for bankruptcy?

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment. Put yourself in mine. His children will never call me mommy. I was not there when they were born. When his daughter gets married, it will be is x who takes her dress shopping. It is his x's right and honor. She is their mother and I will never be that. All I can do is love them as if i were. But how do I get to be a mother. Does anyone have a solution?

You see, I am in your shoes. My boyfriend is divorced and has a young son. I'd like to have children of my own, but I don't know whether that will happen or not, because of choices I've made. I wasnt' willing to compromise my life just to get married and have kids. I could probably be dating a marriage-minded man right now, and be planning to get married next year, and to start a family soon after. But not only do I insist on pursuing a career path that has required sacrifices, I refuse to get married just so that I can have kids. Like you did, I've fallen in love with someone for whom having kids right now would not be a good idea. I love my boyfriend, plain and simple, and so I accept the circumstances that being with him imposes on me. We're both pursuing PhD's, both overtaxed and underpaid, and he has joint custody of his son. We're not in a position right now to think about having a child. Obviously I hope that sometime we will be in such a position. But I'm a responsible person, I know what having a child entails (having close friends with newborns), and I know that right now I cannot afford to take on that responsibility.

So to be honest, hearing you speak as though having a child is your right because you want one and think that you'd be an excellent mother offends me. I'm being responsible. I'm accepting my limitations and the consequences of choices I've made. Why can't you?

[quote]Originally posted by njcky
Are you all for real. Why did I marry him? Because I love him.

Love doesn't pay the bills, or the child support from a previous marriage, nor does it provide a child when the guy's had a vasectomy.

Why did you marry your spouse? Did it matter that he had financial problems or that we would have to pay to have a child of our own? No.

Sorry...the answer for most clear-thinking adults who think about their future would be a resounding YES. Speaking for myself, I would never date someone who had a sh*tload of baggage and debts from a previous marriage. I have worked hard to get where I'm at, to have a decent life (and no, I'm not rich), and I wouldn't be willing to "settle for less" all in the name of LOVE. I have always wanted children, and I would absolutely not EVER date someone who a) didn't want them or b) had had a previous vasectomy.....because I'm not a fool and I know that there's a high chance that a reversal will not be successful. I was once engaged to a guy who hid from me the fact that he'd HAD a vasectomy....until well after we were engaged. He lied. It didn't matter one bit to me that he'd seen a local urologist about having a reversal done. I wanted/want children, and aside from his unforgivable lie, I was not about to "take such a risk" that I wouldn't be able to have children with him.

Would any of you have not married your spouse if he or she could not have given you a child? You don't know the situation.

See above. It is insane, in my opinion, to enter not only into a relationship, but into a marriage, with someone who you KNOW cannot father a child. You knowingly MADE THE CHOICE to be with someone who very likely could never father your child...yet now you're trying to make us all feel sympathy for you. I'm sorry, but I don't. Life is about making choices and then accepting the consequences.

I was hoping to reach a group of understanding people who know what it is like to middle class and poor.

Oh come on now.....don't turn this around and put the focus and blame on us...and make us out to be cold-hearted, insensitive people who can't appreciate your position. Many people are middle classed and poor......but they don't use that as an excuse for screwing their debtors and trying to wangle an elective surgical procedure before filing for bankruptcy. You are just sore because people aren't supporting your and your husband's plan to commit fraud and commit an illegal act. We ALL pay when people file for bankruptcy........because the businesses that don't get paid end up jacking up their prices and we ALL pay.

I was also wanting to reach people that have been in our situation and could offer some advice, or alternatives. I was looking for comments from people who know what it is like to deparetly want a baby. I will be a wonderful mother. Would you not steal food for your children if it was the only way to feed them? What is dishonest, and what is not?

If you so desperately wanted a baby, you would have used common sense when you began dating your now-husband, and learned that he'd had a previous vasectomy. Nothing stopped you from dating a guy who could have fathered a child. I didn't gather from your posts that your husband "tricked you" into believing he could father a child, only for you to find out he couldn't. Again, you made a choice..and now you have to live with it.

However, we can not pay his x-wifes bills (that she agreed to pay for in the divorce settelment and has been found in contempt for not paying) and doctor's fees for the proceedure.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If she agreed to pay and has not, and has been found in contempt of paying, by essence of the fact that your husband is LEGALLY DIVORCED FROM HER, he should be under NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to pay HER bills. So either you're not telling the full story here, or you're trying to justify (and badly, I might add) this plan to "get off easy" and file bankruptcy. This is just not adding up at all. And it is not societies' fault that you and he are in a financial mess and that you cannot afford to have a vasectomy. Why should society have to basically pay (indirectly) for that? You think it's fair and right to end up sticking the surgeon who does this elective procedure, for the cost? He's providing your husband with what you would deem to be a very valuable service.......yet you want to screw him out of the cost? Your child isn't worth the money it would cost? Come on now. Ever heard of saving up the money, even if it takes 5 years? Lots of people work a full time job AND a part time job, on weekends. What stops your husband from doing this? Do you know how many poor single moms work 3 jobs just to put a roof over their childrens' head and food on the table? Maybe your husband needs to work a little darn harder, as this all is apparently his fault.

You are right, I had not considered that it was illegal. We will meet with our lawyer and talk to her about this.

How do you have the money to continue to see "your lawyer" but you're apparently so poor that bankruptcy is your only option? Hmmmmm.

His children will never call me mommy. I was not there when they were born. When his daughter gets married, it will be is x who takes her dress shopping. It is his x's right and honor. She is their mother and I will never be that. All I can do is love them as if i were. But how do I get to be a mother.

You should have considered all of this a long, long time ago...back when you began dating a man who'd had a vasectomy, sorry to say.

Does anyone have a solution?

Well to whoever suggested artificial insemination, that's not really an option for them because that can cost thousands and thousands of $$$ and it can take a long time for it to work. They're obviously not in that position to be able to afford that. As for adoption, nobody is going to allow a couple who chooses bankruptcy as a "way out" of financial troubles, to adopt. The adoption agency will do a complete background check..including a credit history check.....they want to ensure the parents can properly budget and provide for their child. This could be an option down the road, should they get their act together, but it's not obviously now.

As for a solution, I can't think of one.......other than you getting a part time job and your husband getting one, too......and you both working your butts off while you're young and childless. Nothing worth having in life comes easy. Many "students" work a part time or 3/4 time job, to put themself through school. If you want something bad enough,, you have to plan and sacrifice. How badly do you want a baby?

[njcky]

Okay all you know so muchers. Why do we have to pay for her bills? We do. We make more money than she does, so even though she is in contempt, all the judge can do is put her in jail. We however, are still going to have to pay, because that is how screwed up America is. What is even more screwed up is that you all or most of you are saying that marriage is a business. Marriage is about love. HOw sad it is for you that you share your bed with someone who you only love for what they can give you. I will admit, i did seek answers that you gave me. I have told my husband that it would be dishonest. But you all have went way to far. I am sorrry for you that life must be so selfish. I married someone I love; for all his faults and graces. I trust that God brought us together and He will see us through. What faith do you have in yourself. What faith will you let die when your spouse fails you. My mother was the first to tell me that it is dishonest. And yes my parents did file bankruptcy when I was 13. Don't feel sorry for me that i learned the truth about life here. I have know the thruth about life since I was 13. I am only sorry that you all dont know the truth about life. you have nothing without love and faith for that you love. Socrates said "you will fallow your beloved where ever it may go." Our Lord God refers to us and His beloved. Who or what is your beloved, and where will you fallow it. Things are not as they seem. I have cried all day about this. My husband has insured me that it will be okay. Tonight when I pray for a baby, I will pray for the lonely-married men and women who are lost to truth and happiness in life. I don't care about money. The Lord will provide for our life and include a baby.