well I don't want this topic to be about me, but I want to discuss the idea of religion in general. this is not if God exists or not, this is simply a question about based on what are we worshiping in these specific ways.
I was born and raised (still raised ) in a christian family, in a christian surrounding, my parents believe strongly in jesus and in christianity, my society as a whole is very religious, no sex before marriage, no divorce etc... and for very long, I was religious as well, always going to church and praying and reading the bible etc...
until I turned 18, left my christian school(who was governed by nuns who forced us to wear an ugly uniform and pray twice a day, and made fun of the evolution theory) went to the university(majoring in pharmacy), but we also took courses in sociology and general culture and statistics(I'll explain the relevancy of statistics later) and what I learned changed my whole view of religion
first of all, the idea of accident of birth. I was born to a chirstian family in lebanon middle east. I did not choose to be born here and to these specific parents, and I follow the same religion of my parents, just like 98% of people everywhere do, they follow the religion of their parents
if I were born in saudi arabia to muslim parents, I would have been a muslim, just as if I were born tel aviv to jewish parents, I would have been a jew. convertion is not a choice, it is an apparent choice, there is no physical barrier stopping you from converting, but statisticly speaking, how many people leave the religion of their parents and relatives and convert?(precentage speaking)
and so I realised I am only a christian because my parents taught me to be, and I realised that, for example, if I were not raised as a christian, I doubt I would have found jesus(or any other faith) on my own later
second of all, what are we following? the gospels were written 30 to 90 years(I think) after christ, there were like 40 gospels, but the church banned all but 4, and they decided these 4 are true, and they will never tell you about the other gospels
translation messed up most of the gospels, jesus says "if you get hit on your right cheek turn your left" in spain it was at some point understood as, if you get hit on the right cheek, use your sword(the sword is worn on the left side and hiting on the cheek is disrespect) no one ever saw jesus or any physical evidence of him, we believe simply what the priests told us to believe. people question all sorts of things but when it came to religious books, hardly anyone ever raises the question
third, evolution is proven to exist, I study pharmacy, the whole point of pharmacy is to understand antibiotic resistance and the ability of bacterias to acquire more pathogenic abilities, swine flu, bird flu are proof of evolution
adam and eve story is not true, earth is older than 3000 years old(as christianity claimed) and if adam and eve is a myth, then the original sin is a myth, then jesus died for nothing
fourth, I think it is needless to explain how people are giving their lives here for their religion. you have heard how muslims commit altruistic suicides defending their lands(by the way, altruistic suicide killing an invading armed soldier is not terrorism, terrorism is the act of killing unarmed civilains) israelis fighting for their holy lands, christians and muslims in arab countries in general(including mine) struggling for governmental power and representation
this is just sad, everyone(christians and muslims and zionists alike) considers himself the righteous and the rest are infidels or wrong
based on what?
some books written thousands of years ago but unknown people
so my question is to all the believers is, why do you believe? what convinces you?
by the way the "I feel it in my heart that God is there" is not a good argument, I used to have these feelings, muslims have these feelings, christians have these feelings, people who worship cows and statues have these feelings(I have asked). such things come from within the brain and not from outside factors
the mind is fooled into thinking it has done something that deserves a reward
similiary a christian that skips sunday church would have a moral crisis, while a person from any other religion does not feel it is wrong
long thread, sorry about that
again, no offense to anyone
You've decided to use your own reasoning on what you see around you and what you've been taught from birth to cast off the indoctrination of your parents and make up your own mind about the existence of God and religious dogma.
You aren't alone in this, some people lose their 'faith', some adopt it.
Now that you have read why people think Christianity is false...take the time to look at the many books that have refuted those criticisms.
First, evolution by itself does not disprove a God. And oddly enough the microevolution of germs and bacteria does not prove that a single cell could have evolved into such a complicated creature such as man. No one disputes that change occurs among/within species. However, many dispute the idea that it is how life became complex. And of course the evolutionary theory does not explain or attempt to explain how life began. That would be abiogenesis...or the idea that life began from non-life.
Second, the Bible had quite a bit more thought as to how books were chosen. A little research will show that no book has lasted so many years with so few errors. (Yes, so few errors as compared to the original manuscripts). And no book has so many copies of its original manuscripts available that are so close to its date of origin.
Third, as for being raised in a Christian home being the reason you are a Christian...perhaps. Yet many raised in different faiths or no faith have also chosen Christianity. And many in Christianity have chosen another faith or no faith. It is not logical to assume that anyone who chooses the belief they were "born into by accident" cannot truly believe it based on actual conclusion that they themselves have drawn. Logic would then say that anyone raised in an atheistic home is simply following how he was indoctrinated and not how he himself believed. Indoctrination goes both ways. It can also occur when someone goes to school (ie college) and becomes indoctrinated in beliefs contrary to his own. His own beliefs are then based on what the so-called educated professors taught him and not reached by his own research.
Fourth, there ARE without question many ways people worship a god that they believe to exist. This by itself does not mean God does not exist. Three questions must be answered by everyone....does God exist? Is he a personal God? And how must I worship him? If it is determined that God does not exist, then perhaps the other questions are irrelevant. If he does exist, then the next two must be answered.
Fifth, people give themselves for all sorts of causes...religion is just one of many. Many of the greatest mass murderers were not even religious but atheists. No question that people have used religion as the reason, but when analyzed we find that the true motive was not religion or a belief in God but simply selfish motives.
Sixth, IS the world as old as is now believed by the scientific community? Assuming that you begin with the assumptions that they do, then probably. Assuming that you begin with the Biblical worldview, then you may reach different conclusions.
Why do I believe that God exists? Because when I have researched the evidences and interpretations, then the existence of a God is most logical to me. Is he a personal God? Again, the evidence indicates that a God who created this world takes personal interest in the creatures he created. And how should he be worshiped? To me the evidence is clear....The Judeo-Christian belief fits the criteria.
My suggestion to you is...begin searching the internet for books that answer the questions you have. Here you will get all sorts of answers. Some will be helpful. Some will simply be said in derision. But ultimately, like all of us, you are responsible for you. Throwing out your upbringing because of some teachings you have heard in school without truly verifying them in your mind will not be any different than assuming that because you were born into Christianity is why you believe that to be true. Stay away from the authors who argue against a god without providing real evidences (ie Dawkins, Hitches, Dennett) but use many emotional based arguments. The late Dr S Gould does a better job of arguing why he believed as he did. (Of course, he now knows the answer one way or another). There are many good Christian authors who have answered your questions with logic and given evidences why God must exist. It is in your best interest to seek these out and get the rebuttals to your newly found "knowledge." These are not new arguments against God. Many go way hundreds of years.
You have asked the ultimate question that determines the"fate" of us all...is there a God? And the answer has been debated for years, but the fact remains...there is an answer and it is either yes or no.
__________________ "Only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. One is to let her think she is having her own way, the other is to let her have it." --LBJ
First, evolution by itself does not disprove a God. And oddly enough the microevolution of germs and bacteria does not prove that a single cell could have evolved into such a complicated creature such as man. No one disputes that change occurs among/within species. However, many dispute the idea that it is how life became complex. And of course the evolutionary theory does not explain or attempt to explain how life began. That would be abiogenesis...or the idea that life began from non-life.
well from the earliest bacteria that emeged on earth, there are like millions of years
I am not disproving God, I am disproving christianity, adam and eve and all the earth creatures were created by God, in a given sequence, they wre made as they are
most importantly to me, it disproves adam and eve and christ havign died to wash away the sin of adam...
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Second, the Bible had quite a bit more thought as to how books were chosen. A little research will show that no book has lasted so many years with so few errors. (Yes, so few errors as compared to the original manuscripts). And no book has so many copies of its original manuscripts available that are so close to its date of origin.
it lasts because it is being taught father to son... in an endless cycle, not many will question it, same for the kuran and the torah and all religious books from thousands of years ago. the book is not scientific, it does not give you dates and accurate locations or last names.
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Third, as for being raised in a Christian home being the reason you are a Christian...perhaps. Yet many raised in different faiths or no faith have also chosen Christianity. And many in Christianity have chosen another faith or no faith.
yes I know, thousands and hundreds of thousands in the world convert everyday, but it is not statisticly significant
for somethign to be statisticly significant it needs to occur around 5% of the time
for example to say out of the 8 million israelis(which I will assume for the sake of argument that they are all jews) 400 thousand converted
simpler example, one of every 20 people you know has converted, and in that case, then it will be a bit statisticly significant
but so far conversion is not really there as an option to be considered
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Fifth, people give themselves for all sorts of causes...religion is just one of many. Many of the greatest mass murderers were not even religious but atheists. No question that people have used religion as the reason, but when analyzed we find that the true motive was not religion or a belief in God but simply selfish motives.
the belief in God in most religions is by itself caused by a selfish motive, think about it, older than the idea of monotheism, is the idea of heaven and hell, reward and punishment, how successful would religion have been without the promise of a reward and threatning people with their souls
I have read parts of the kuraan, on the very first page they wrote"this is the book that is without any doubts or faults, refusing and denying it leads to hell"(something like that) and then before teaching you anything, it descibes hell, I think that makes it more convincing don't you? christianity indirectly does that too
Last edited by 627; 23rd October 2009 at 2:45 PM..
627, just out of curiosity, do you think your views on religion have been effected by the fact that differing religions and religious sub-groups having been more-or-less trying to kill each other in Lebanon since 1975?
I understand getting tripped up by Genesis, happens to me too. The New Testament makes quite a bit more sense, though I wonder about Paul sometimes.
for some reason my post was submited before it was done so continuing here
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Why do I believe that God exists? Because when I have researched the evidences and interpretations, then the existence of a God is most logical to me. Is he a personal God? Again, the evidence indicates that a God who created this world takes personal interest in the creatures he created. And how should he be worshiped? To me the evidence is clear....The Judeo-Christian belief fits the criteria.
well the question is again as I say, not if God exists or not, it's whether we are worshiping correctly, and why is it this way
the story is illogical, the whole adam and eve, and jesus coming down to earth who is the son of the father, and the son and father and holy spirit are one God
he became human to suffer as we do but he never commited a sin or an error and never had sexual desires, which pretty much goes against the idea of being human. he was murdered by us humans and after we were allowed to murder him he forgave us for our sins
evidence of whether or not the story is true is discussed when I said the bible is old and we don't know who wrote it etc...
you can even point a few flaws in the teaching of christ themselves(we can discuss that too later)
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My suggestion to you is...begin searching the internet for books that answer the questions you have. Here you will get all sorts of answers. Some will be helpful. Some will simply be said in derision. But ultimately, like all of us, you are responsible for you. Throwing out your upbringing because of some teachings you have heard in school without truly verifying them in your mind will not be any different than assuming that because you were born into Christianity is why you believe that to be true. Stay away from the authors who argue against a god without providing real evidences (ie Dawkins, Hitches, Dennett) but use many emotional based arguments. The late Dr S Gould does a better job of arguing why he believed as he did. (Of course, he now knows the answer one way or another). There are many good Christian authors who have answered your questions with logic and given evidences why God must exist. It is in your best interest to seek these out and get the rebuttals to your newly found "knowledge." These are not new arguments against God. Many go way hundreds of years.
but that would be like brainwashing myself
am I looking for truth or am I looking simply to be convinced? I read from everyone and I like to argue to seek the truth
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627, just out of curiosity, do you think your views on religion have been effected by the fact that differing religions and religious sub-groups having been more-or-less trying to kill each other in Lebanon since 1975?
I understand getting tripped up by Genesis, happens to me too. The New Testament makes quite a bit more sense, though I wonder about Paul sometimes.
about lebanon, it's not just about the civil war, in our country the government is divided, the president has to be a christian(you can't run otherwise) the prime minister has to be a muslim, the parlement has to be 50/50
and I asked people, for example christians, what if a brilliant genius ran for president and he was a muslim, and he would make this country heaven, wouldn't you want that?
the answer no
peopel are racists, people are afraid of other beliefes, it's not just our close minded society, it's everywhere
in the US Obama had to prove he is not a muslim before he even stood a chance
I also believe the arab israeli conflict started out of pure racism
jews were migrating to live in palestine, the arabs went against it and started rioting and killing jews(al kassam the blackhand etc...), and israel was formed by force as a retaliation(I am against israel but just out of logic, they were driven to do what they did) it all started because of racism and ended horribly(and the original belfore promise is the very best arabs can hope for now, palestinian civilains will not be allowed to return home and israel occupies more lands than just palestine that belfore inteded to give)
muslims christians and jews believe in a God that created everything, their difference is the way this God should be worshiped
and everyone is ready to die for what? books that are thousands of years old with illogical teachings that scientificly speaing if you think about it, do not benefit human wellbeings...
well from the earliest bacteria that emeged on earth, there are like millions of years
Assuming the dating is correct. And think....if God created the world, then either he created it "full grown" or as all little seeds and babies. If it was instantly mature when created (ie full size trees, a man and a woman, adult animals, etc.), then would the age of the world be zero or already a certain age? No. In fact, it would be seen and recorded as many years old. And if the assumption is that the Bible is correct, the impact of the Flood as recorded in the Bible as evidenced by minor floods in the world, would have a huge impact on the apparent age of the world. This could easily answer the dating measurements that assume that things are millions of years old.
Not saying that this is correct, but one must remember that certain assumptions are made when dating material and fossils, and one big one is that things have remained constant from the "beginning." And yes, the ultimate argument..."anything can happen if given enough time." And for evolution and abiogenesis to be even possible, then the world MUST be millions of years old. If creation happened by a God, it does NOT have to be only thousands of years old. And yes, different interpretations of Genesis and the Biblical story of Adam and Eve have been suggested to show how this is possible.
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I am not disproving God, I am disproving christianity, adam and eve and all the earth creatures were created by God, in a given sequence, they wre made as they are
most importantly to me, it disproves adam and eve and christ havign died to wash away the sin of adam...
Actually, you are correct. If the Biblical history of earth's beginnings are questionable, then the need for salvation is questionable.
However, with all due respect, I don't see how you have disproved anything.
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it lasts because it is being taught father to son... in an endless cycle, not many will question it, same for the kuran and the torah and all religious books from thousands of years ago.
Partly true. It has been passed down from the ages. However, I think history shows that the Bible more than any other book has been critiqued and questioned over and over.
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the book is not scientific,
Depends on what you mean, but I will give this to you as meaning that it doesn't answer all of the scientific questions. But following that, science doesn't answer all of the questions either. And history doesn't answer the questions of science either.
Does that mean they are proven to be untrue? No.
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it does not give you dates and accurate locations or last names.
Actually, many dates have been proven to be true based on archeological findings. And many that were thought to be untrue have been later to be shown as correct. As for last names, this is not even a valid argument. The way it is recorded...People in Bible times did not really have last names like we do today. People frequently went by something similar to “Simon, son of Jonah” (Matthew 16:17).
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yes I know, thousands and hundreds of thousands in the world convert everyday, but it is not statisticly significant
for somethign to be statisticly significant it needs to occur around 5% of the time
The fact that people stay with what they were "indoctrinated with" has no bearing on the validity of its truth. And many have gone on to college and simply followed the teachings that they were fed there...without examining how these teachings are simply as fallible as any other.
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but so far cnversion is not really there as an option to be considered
How do you mean this? As in Christianity is not an option? Or any religion? Or God?
First, evolution by itself does not disprove a God.
Which god? If you take a literal approach to Genesis, it's extremely hard to reconcile the differences between creationism and science.
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No one disputes that change occurs among/within species.
And nobody other than creationists dispute that speciesation occurs, and they only do so for religious reasons. They have no better reason to do so.
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Second, the Bible had quite a bit more thought as to how books were chosen.
Numerical significance constitutes "quite a bit more thought" does it?
"But it is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the church has been scattered throughout the world, and since the 'pillar and ground' of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life, it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing incorruption on every side, and vivifying human afresh. From this fact, it is evident that the Logos, the fashioner demiourgos of all, he that sits on the cherubim and holds all things together, when he was manifested to humanity, gave us the gospel under four forms but bound together by one spirit." - St Irenaeus
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It is not logical to assume that anyone who chooses the belief they were "born into by accident" cannot truly believe it based on actual conclusion that they themselves have drawn. Logic would then say that anyone raised in an atheistic home is simply following how he was indoctrinated and not how he himself believed.
You do not understand what logic is then. The OP was pointing out the statistical truth that people born in a predominantly x culture are far more likely to end up as an x themselves. This is self-evident, because if it were not true then there would not be predominantly x cultures to be born into in the first place.
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Sixth, IS the world as old as is now believed by the scientific community? Assuming that you begin with the assumptions that they do, then probably. Assuming that you begin with the Biblical worldview, then you may reach different conclusions.
There is no compelling reason to believe otherwise, since no rigorous or reputable studies have indicated anything else. A person can throw their lot in with the conclusions reached by centuries of very smart people rigorously testing their ideas both in theory and in practice, or you can prefer to believe that Bronze Age sheep-hearders know more about the natural world. Tell me which is the bigger assumption.
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Stay away from the authors who argue against a god without providing real evidences (ie Dawkins, Hitches, Dennett) but use many emotional based arguments.
You have got to be kidding. Out of curiosity, which (if any) non-Christian authors would you not recommend avoiding?
so my question is to all the believers is, why do you believe? what convinces you?
I found god again at the age of 21 (odd age to become religious again, isn't it?). A horrible breakup combined with a near death experience (not suicidal, not related to the break up) made me re-evaluate. It's my personal belief that I should be dead right now, and that luck had nothing to do with it.
I also work in a profession where I see a lot of things, but get to help a lot of people. This reinforces my belief and increases my desire to be close to God.
By the way, you have no grounds to discount people 'feeling it in their hearts' as a reason to believe. None what so ever. For many people that's exactly what it is. It's called faith.
__________________
"Pull up a stool. Nothing to do except shot after shot. Drink till I puke, and I'm standing on the edge of what is real." - Smile Empty Soul
"I love those moments. I like to wave at them as they pass by." - Captain Jack Sparrow
He has every grounds to discount it because: a) it's his thread; and b) he is correct in saying that it's not a good argument, at least insofar as trying to discover the truth is concerned. Do you think scientists run around feeling in their hearts that magnetism is true and leave it at that?
He has every grounds to discount it because: a) it's his thread; and b) he is correct in saying that it's not a good argument, at least insofar as trying to discover the truth is concerned. Do you think scientists run around feeling in their hearts that magnetism is true and leave it at that?
Cheers,
D.
Religion is based on faith. Science is based on facts. Faith is the only argument people need. Wether you agree with their logic or not doesn't matter.
Religion defies reason, the human race likes an answer for everything. Even if the answer is blatantly false, or ignorant despite overwhelming evidence to suggest the opposite; there is an insatiable curiosity that drives our hope of the wild, or untamed, or unexplainable frontiers, into well grounded, and proven fact.
It is not the fault of Christianity, for being an obtuse relic that doesn't seem to want to die. Nor is it our unwillingness to bend the interpretation of it to fit us on a individualized level. It's sole existence, is to prove that there has to be hope, as well as a counterpoint of any explanation made within the scientific community. Even, if the Church has probably overextended it's reach of what it should, and should not be preaching to their faithful, as a person who appreciates reason and logic, it forces us to make sure our theories or laws, are air tight.
I could respond to you, on a point for point basis, much like James has; but we'd be merely arguing semantics. You either take all of your religion, or you don't take any of it. You still haven't lost your faith, if you refuse to believe god doesn't exist, you're just getting out of your comfort zone and trying to give a logical explanation to something that is completely illogical. However, you'll come to a reasonable answer, if that means rejoining your religion, finding one that better suits you, or casting it aside for your own personal truths that you believe the universe holds; as a caveat to the last suggestion, you will by no means ever be completely satisfied with the conclusion you have come to.
As someone who appreciates Einstein's takes on so many things; here's something that might be of interest to you. "Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind."
A man who loves science as much as his god, will appreciate him/her a thousand times more than someone who finds faith in a man who guides a flock of sheep.
__________________
A person starts to live when he can live outside himself.
Religion is based on faith. Science is based on facts. Faith is the only argument people need. Wether you agree with their logic or not doesn't matter.
The Faith of Religion can also be called Hope.
The Faith of Science can also be called Confidence.
The difference being that the former has no tangible proof, but the latter depends on it.
__________________ There can be no Peace, Joy or Contentment in your heart, if the things you say are different to the things you do.
" A cross between a new age Buddhist Monk and Xena the Warrior Princess" GrayClouds.Caliguy's No Contact Guide.
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
) in a christian family, in a christian surrounding, my parents believe strongly in jesus and in christianity, my society as a whole is very religious, no sex before marriage, no divorce etc... and for very long, I was religious as well, always going to church and praying and reading the bible etc...
Hybrid Mode
