NC for serial cheaters

[merrmeade]

#1 - My WH has done well with NC in every way with the OW since dday. This OW was my brother's wife. Brother has since died. I interacted with OW at the three memorial services for him and then made it clear I didn't want to see her again. I've dealt with this relationship in detail in previous threads.

 

#2 - About a year after dday, trickle truth revealed an even darker secret (to WH): He'd also had an affair with his sister-in-law decades earlier before she and his brother met. The brother has known since they got married (20 yrs). I only found out last year that the brother told H at that point (when they married).

 

Before my finding this out, we'd all interacted for years - though not so amicably for reasons I could never fathom and still don't entirely.

 

Since my finding out, we've kind of gone along without a real plan or "NC" per se. It's worked out that way because -

(a) H's bro & wife seem to hate me for some reason.

[Perhaps that IS the reason, but no one really knows except that they don't like me. The brother is generally considered an a-hole anyway. He had a vendetta against my son for a while. They (family) hint that she provokes him in the background. The family are all veteran deniers, rug-sweepers and blame-shifters but maintain strong loyalty.]

(b) we haven't seen each other and everyone generally accepts that they/I don't want to.

© My husband tries to be loyal to his brother .

(d) He also tries to protect and defend me against his brother's abuse and my own sensibilities to the fact of his prior relationship with the SIL. H's performance ranges between a C+ to C-, close to failing at times, and these days consists mostly of not telling me when he has to interact with her.

[This is the one we don't have an agreement about. It's

NC

with

SIL

#1. But we haven't said this for

SIL

#2 because it's a moot point. There was contact and conversation for years before I knew. It's more about the disrespect to me of the whole mess.]

Now, how do I feel about the SIL#2 mess? I'm happy that I don't have to see them. I've gotten over the absolute injustice of being treated like a pariah by the brother and wife for ANY reason (but especially as the BW) and the fact that no one in the family questions or holds the brother accountable for anything because they're afraid of his temper. I don't need to tell the family about the A, and I certainly won't be telling my kids. I know that there is nothing between them now and she is faithful to her husband. It would be unthinkable because she and they did the honorable thing, unlike my husband. However, they have vilified me unfairly and outrageously. They have invented reasons to make me the villain. On that basis, I have no interest in seeing or speaking to either one again.

 

I thought it would be over when my brother died but realize now it will never be over until I die! For example:

• With my H's family, we juggle holidays, who goes when to see his mother.
  
• My son's getting married in the spring. They sent me a list of people to whom they sent "save the date" emails, and SIL #1 was not on it, but H's brother and wife were. [The kids know about A#1 but not #2.] I'm ok with this but kind of wonder what will happen with SIL #1 since her sons and everyone else will be invited. Will she start vilifying me like the other SIL clearly has done?
  
• My brother knows about A#1 and was appropriately supportive and understanding when I told him. Nevertheless, we have family business, land holdings, etc., that require his communication with our SIL which he mentions freely. He'll probably visit her when he comes to the wedding. I wonder how that will play out.

I wonder how other people handle the on-going potential for encounter with family APs. Or maybe no one has stayed in a situation this f-ked up or has family this disturbing.

 

P.S.

I'm not interested in reactions about why I don't just ditch the husband with the lot of them. That's another subject and I ask that you talk about it somewhere else (please). Just not interested right now.

Edited November 23, 2015 by merrmeade

[Whoknew30]

That's a lot of closeness! If you have made up your mind to stay (which it sounds like you have) & you H hasn't had "that" kind of contact with OSIL & his brother knows. Just keep up with what works for you. If you're being treated badly by some family, don't let them be a factor in your decision process, you do what's best you see fit & you'll be fine. Good luck

[katielee]

ok this is kind of hard to follow but this:

 

 

"(d) He also tries to protect and defend me against his brother's abuse and my own sensibilities to the fact of his prior relationship with the SIL. H's performance ranges between a C+ to C-, close to failing at times, and these days consists mostly of not telling me when he has to interact with her."

 

is troublesome. Have you told him expressly what you need for him to do? I'm wondering how he can have loyalty to a brother who abuses's his own wife?

[merrmeade]

ok this is kind of hard to follow but this:

 

 

"(d) He also tries to protect and defend me against his brother's abuse and my own sensibilities to the fact of his prior relationship with the SIL. H's performance ranges between a C+ to C-, close to failing at times, and these days consists mostly of not telling me when he has to interact with her."

 

is troublesome. Have you told him expressly what you need for him to do? I'm wondering how he can have loyalty to a brother who abuses's his own wife?

Good call, kl. It's always insightful creating your own thread. I see it in others, too. It's uncomfortable sometimes, but okay. Rolling up my sleeves...

 

Guess I haven't really talked it out with him. It's as hard to articulate as it is to write. To reword:

1 - He also tries to protect and defend me against his brother's abuse and my own sensibilities to the fact of his prior relationship with the SIL.

Meaning: He tries to protect me from triggers. He says his brother does not vilify me to his face and that he would not stand for that. I do not ask him to give up his relationship with his brother.

H

is the first one to call the brother a first-class azzholeJerk when he's being one - which is fairly often.

2 - H's performance ranges between a C+ to C-, close to failing at times,

H

mostly tries to be sensitive to what would make me uncomfortable but I give him only a C+. The worst is maybe a C- because he doesn't intentionally ignore or dismiss.

3 - and these days consists mostly of not telling me when he has to interact with her.

Correction: I don't know for sure that he's had "to interact with her." A recently deceased sister left him executor and

SIL

in charge of preparing real estate for sale,

so

there are some things that have to be conveyed both ways. I think they've communicated through the brother. But I will check. I let this slide as well. Good call.

[ladydesigner]

I wonder how other people handle the on-going potential for encounter with family APs. Or maybe no one has stayed in a situation this f-ked up or has family this disturbing.

 

Right?! I have been dealing with these kinds of situations my whole life watching my uncle have A's remarry yada yada and my parent's own A filled M not only how they started but my mom never stopped My cousins have A's and their exes and new one's avoiding each other. It is a big mess and has always been this way my whole life. It is why I am scared to death to get a D. I don't want to deal with any of that family blending crap I'd rather be by myself.

 

I'm sorry (((merrmeade))) it sounds very much like my upbringing. A's wreak havoc on families. I believe these are the ripple effects.

 

Honestly I would just have NC with those that bother you.Period.

[underpants]

Go for the reality tv series.

 

'Sister In Law Wives'.

 

'All in the Family'

 

'A River runs through all of us....and it is his semen.'

 

TLC is the best bet for this.

 

Good luck.

[ShatteredLady]

I've realized lately that there is a strange kind of peace to finally knowing the truth...no matter how awkward it makes life!

 

Me & my best friend (together ALL our lives) share everything. We know all of those embarrassing little things, all of those huge devastating things & everything in the middle.

There's been this strange, strained thing about my H's stag party. My BFF is male. I've always known that he walked from the music festival that was my H's stag party at 3am. It was in a field, in the middle of nowhere. Nothing about the story ever made sense!

Why did my BFF walk MILES from 3am, arriving home at 8am & kicking the door in because he left all of his things, wallet, phone, keys etc in his tent? It's all so out of character! He says he was very drunk & took drugs. Still makes no sense!!

For 20 years there's been this weirdness surrounding the event. People have been weird with me whenever the subject comes-up. It's always made me feel strange.

 

I had a female friend from the age 14. She had a drink/sex problem. I used to laugh with my H about things she did...she told me all of the sexual behavior AND inadiquacies of the men she slept with. She slept with nearly all of my H's friends.

At some point things got strange in our relationship. My H violently criticized me for mentioning her sexual judgements of men. It got so odd that I stopped socializing with her suddenly in my 20's. People would ask what happened & I never knew the answer. I had many reasons to avoid her in my life but I never knew what happened.

 

These are just a couple of examples. Not family, just friends but you know what I mean??? Things have always been 'wrong', in my head & heart I knew something had happened...I have many of these stories...these are the easier to share...

 

I've lived for 20-25 years with these strange feelings of not quite knowing, not quite understanding...

 

My BFF walked away because my H went off into the fields with a woman on his stag do. People had paid her to f**k him. My BFF couldn't handle the monumental nature of it before my wedding.

 

My H f**ked my friend & feared she was telling people how crap in bed he was..

 

In the last year of my life I've learnt so many things. Secret after secret. It's all a huge pile of poop! Have I lived in the dark because people love me? Are they ashamed? Confused? I don't know! I've been hit with so many things. People have lived with so many secrets & lies. I don't know which way is up anymore.

 

Your life is FAMILY & family is everything to me. It's my Dads faith & religion. I don't know how you do it. I feel so 'less' for bringing my H into my world & damaging so many forever relationships. I live with this neurotic dread of what's coming next...

 

I don't know what I'm saying really! You're in my heart. I'm so sorry!

[Krashi]

I would ask Jerry Springer to do a mediation with this nest of vipers.

[merrmeade]

I've realized lately that there is a strange kind of peace to finally knowing the truth...no matter how awkward it makes life!

 

Me & my best friend (together ALL our lives) share everything. We know all of those embarrassing little things, all of those huge devastating things & everything in the middle.

There's been this strange, strained thing about my H's stag party. My BFF is male. I've always known that he walked from the music festival that was my H's stag party at 3am. It was in a field, in the middle of nowhere. Nothing about the story ever made sense!

Why did my BFF walk MILES from 3am, arriving home at 8am & kicking the door in because he left all of his things, wallet, phone, keys etc in his tent? It's all so out of character! He says he was very drunk & took drugs. Still makes no sense!!

For 20 years there's been this weirdness surrounding the event. People have been weird with me whenever the subject comes-up. It's always made me feel strange.

 

I had a female friend from the age 14. She had a drink/sex problem. I used to laugh with my H about things she did...she told me all of the sexual behavior AND inadiquacies of the men she slept with. She slept with nearly all of my H's friends.

At some point things got strange in our relationship. My H violently criticized me for mentioning her sexual judgements of men. It got so odd that I stopped socializing with her suddenly in my 20's. People would ask what happened & I never knew the answer. I had many reasons to avoid her in my life but I never knew what happened.

 

These are just a couple of examples. Not family, just friends but you know what I mean??? Things have always been 'wrong', in my head & heart I knew something had happened...I have many of these stories...these are the easier to share...

 

I've lived for 20-25 years with these strange feelings of not quite knowing, not quite understanding...

 

My BFF walked away because my H went off into the fields with a woman on his stag do. People had paid her to f**k him. My BFF couldn't handle the monumental nature of it before my wedding.

 

My H f**ked my friend & feared she was telling people how crap in bed he was..

 

In the last year of my life I've learnt so many things. Secret after secret. It's all a huge pile of poop! Have I lived in the dark because people love me? Are they ashamed? Confused? I don't know! I've been hit with so many things. People have lived with so many secrets & lies. I don't know which way is up anymore.

 

Your life is FAMILY & family is everything to me. It's my Dads faith & religion. I don't know how you do it. I feel so 'less' for bringing my H into my world & damaging so many forever relationships. I live with this neurotic dread of what's coming next...

 

I don't know what I'm saying really! You're in my heart. I'm so sorry!

Well, you know - I doubt if anyone can answer such craziness.

 

But I'm glad you emphasized that one point over and over about the 'wrong' feeling. I haven't given it nearly its due in my own experience—that memory of 'wrong' with so many people at so many times. My husband had 5 affairs,** and I've asked him if other people knew. I don't believe he'd tell me if they did or that he knew who suspected or was told by the APs. But that's potential for lots of 'wrong,' awkward moments. I think it made me a little bit crazy for a while. I'm not crazy now. But then, maybe I no longer know what sane, happy, or normal is.

 

I read yours, think about mine and realize sharing these stories of incomparable pathos and soul-sucking irony is worth as much as the perfect advice. It's too f-king absurd to stay head bowed. Sometimes there's nothing left but the

HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER

of the very wise or the very insane. When nothing's left because the lies and secrets have destroyed all dreams and possibilities, leaving only absurdity and irony, you have to laugh because you know more than anyone around you. It's a lonely place shared with no one, but you don't want to destroy the hope of those who have the right and ability to change it, to do it right.

 

** Sadly, all details regarding his affairs have a permanent margin of doubt. Trickle truth destroys possibility of a complete return of trust.

[merrmeade]

Anyway, my question still stands. Any advice on how to handle these upcoming events and family conversations, anticipated and un-, with their potential land mines. I don't trigger so much any more and would like to think that I'll stand up for myself if given cause.

 

Anyway, I've gotten some damn good guidelines here in the past. Hoping for some new nuggets....

[Krashi]

I would drop a ****load of acid before engaging these folks.

[merrmeade]

I would drop a ****load of acid before engaging these folks.

I don't have a good record with that approach. Because of the joint my maid of honor gave me, my pre-wedding doubts deserted me. I might've avoided life as a BS were it not for that joint. What disasters might I agree to on a ***load of acid?

[Marc878]

This is an easy one.

 

You walk in like you own the damn place! Period.

[fellini]

NC is first and foremost for the WS.

At some point Luke Skywalker has to face his fears, and his greatest fear is himself.

 

You hold a wedding. It is not your wedding, it is their wedding. And as in the majority of weddings, there are family secrets.

 

Everyone attends and acts accordingly.

 

The wedding ends and everyone goes home.

 

This is not about NC. Your WH knows what he has to do, and he does it.

 

It's no different if a WS walks into Macey's buying Christmas gifts and an exAP is there. We are way past talking about NC and now talking about how each WS handles these awkward moments when paths are crossed.

 

Of course it would be nice if people with whom we have NC do not cross our paths, but sometimes, once in a while, it happens. And being family, it is going to happen at least once in a long while.

 

How people respond to that shows us, reminds us that it isn't the NC that is working, it is the thoughts and feelings inside the head of the WS that confirms the true depth of NC.

 

For those of us whose WS have no choice but to be forever intertwined with the lives (family or co-workers alike) of exAPs the true meaning of NC is not "no contact" it is "NO CONNECTION"

Edited November 24, 2015 by fellini

[katielee]

I like Fellini's advice...

Merrmeade - have you guys talked about how his brother treats you in MC and how he can cowboy up to you being his priority?

[merrmeade]

NC is first and foremost for the WS.

At some point Luke Skywalker has to face his fears, and his greatest fear is himself.

 

You hold a wedding. It is not your wedding, it is their wedding. And as in the majority of weddings, there are family secrets.

 

Everyone attends and acts accordingly.

 

The wedding ends and everyone goes home.

 

This is not about NC. Your WH knows what he has to do, and he does it.

 

It's no different if a WS walks into Macey's buying Christmas gifts and an exAP is there. We are way past talking about NC and now talking about how each WS handles these awkward moments when paths are crossed.

 

Of course it would be nice if people with whom we have NC do not cross our paths, but sometimes, once in a while, it happens. And being family, it is going to happen at least once in a long while.

 

How people respond to that shows us, reminds us that it isn't the NC that is working, it is the thoughts and feelings inside the head of the WS that confirms the true depth of NC.

 

For those of us whose WS have no choice but to be forever intertwined with the lives (family or co-workers alike) of exAPs the true meaning of NC is not "no contact" it is "NO CONNECTION"

Okay. Yeah, you're right. You just can't write a script for every possible encounter.

 

But do they really get to invite SIL#1 if they want? Do I have to be in the same place with her?

 

Well, if my son thinks she loves him unconditionally, how 'bout this little nugget of hypocrisy: She told my H - and I read it in emails - that she couldn't be Son's character reference. Without undue detail (I just deleted two paragraphs of explanation), it's unconscionable hypocrisy. Son had been her guardian angel for a while after my brother's stroke but he dared ask her about her relationship with my H, with whom she was cuckolding her husband. And he would invite this b-tch and I would have to be nice???

 

He's so sweet and trusting, I really cannot tell him she would not be his character reference. It's too hurtful to him.

 

So if he wants to invite her, I still have to show up and be nice?

[fellini]

Okay. Yeah, you're right. You just can't write a script for every possible encounter.

 

But do they really get to invite SIL#1 if they want? Do I have to be in the same place with her?

 

 

Perhaps you need to in order to see that this is a hurdle you can cross.

 

 

Without going into all the details, one of the endgame results of post dday reconciliation with my WW is that I want and require ZERO contact with her family. I continue this today. They are no longer welcome in my life, but naturally I do not ask my daughter or her mother to do the same.

 

We cross paths all the time. But I do not connect with them.

 

My WW crosses paths with her exAP 2, 3, 4 times a month. There is no way to prevent this other than to require her to give up her profession. Nor do we have to. What matters is how disconnected she remains from him and those around him. Not whether or not they occupy the same space.

[merrmeade]

I like Fellini's advice...

Merrmeade - have you guys talked about how his brother treats you in MC and how he can cowboy up to you being his priority?

Yeah, Fellini nailed it however hard some of it is.

 

As for MC, it is just not in our budget right now unfortunately.

 

But, yes, we've discussed H's brother and who's the priority. I've asked specifically if he's denigrated me, how he's speculated about my motivations or whatever he does to other family members. The only reason I knew H's bro was actively dissing me was because the older (now deceased) sister had confided her discomfort in hearing this to my H but told him not to tell me. I overheard and told him that husband/wife confidence trumps brother/sister. H says bro doesn't dare diss me to his face and that he wouldn't tolerate it if he tried. Makes sense; I have no reason to doubt this.

 

They've just lost a sister and their mom is almost 100. I don't interfere in their relations. I actually think H has done the best he can with all the overlapping events and responsibilities. I think most communication has taken place through the brother. I think. SIL#2 & H have not been alone together.

 

It's just the FACT that I'm a persona non grata with H's bro and his wife. The deceased sister EXPECTed me to take the high road and simply not care. The rest of the family doesn't know about the A. They accept that I'm the bad guy of the decade for him and so we won't be visiting them at the same time. Because he's so irascible and no one expects this to change, everyone accepts it as the status quo, which H pretty much keeps workable. My only job is to try and not care.

 

But fact is, what royally bothers me is the freaking injustice of it all. I KNOW their convoluted rationale for this animosity has to do with the A and she's behind it. And the fact that I only know this NOW after years of not knowing, when they and H shared this knowledge, is grossly disrespectful and unjust to me. They probably assumed I knew, thought that H did the same thing she'd done and told me eventually. (None of the family realizes H's true nature is that of a coward, not a hero.) They clearly do not hold him accountable for anything, just me. They probably blame me for the A somehow. I don't really know.

 

So, yeah, I get it. I really have no choice. Just suck it up and be glad I don't have to deal with them.

[merrmeade]

Perhaps you need to in order to see that this is a hurdle you can cross.

I don't know. I just don't know, fellini. There's so much hurt with her that will never be, can never be reconciled. I hate her. It's that simple. She became a petulant 5-year-old, blaming me (on the phone) for the A—"WHY did you leave him alone [with me]?!"—and reminded me that she had plenty of grievances against me, too (Right. Equivalent to sucking my H's dick.)—while I was in complete non-functioning shock following dday—cried in anger and jealousy because I had a loving family and children around (and, therefore, wasn't suffering like she was)—and assured me that we'd "sit down together again, laugh and cry together." I realize now that she was anticipating that my brother's death would melt all animosity and bring us all together again. When it didn't, she blamed me for the family schism. She called her high school boyfriend the month my brother died. She married him the month after the last memorial service. She inherited my parents' cabin when my brother died with all MY family's memories.

 

Do I have to be in the same place again with this person if my children wish it?

[katielee]

merrmeade - you could say to hubby, "set this straight to your relatives right now. Be the man I need you to be." After having his affairs, shouldn't this at least be an amend? He can't make the affairs go away but he can make damn sure you're treated respectfully from here on out.

[merrmeade]

merrmeade - you could say to hubby, "set this straight to your relatives right now. Be the man I need you to be." After having his affairs, shouldn't this at least be an amend? He can't make the affairs go away but he can make damn sure you're treated respectfully from here on out.

You know why that would backfire? It would crush me in the end because he would only present it as his mistake. He would not even mention me. This is exactly what he did to his sister right before he died. So she thought whatever you speculate on hearing that - oh, there were problems in the marriage; they fell in love but how sad or whatever. He wasn't telling her that he regretted doing this to me. He told her because I asked him to tell her (same thing) and narrated it only in terms of his mistake which he regrets. I don't need that.

[merrmeade]

IOW he would manipulate the telling so he ended up getting their sympathy. I wouldn't enter into the telling. What's the point?

[Whoknew30]

I don't know. I just don't know, fellini. There's so much hurt with her that will never be, can never be reconciled. I hate her. It's that simple. She became a petulant 5-year-old, blaming me (on the phone) for the A—"WHY did you leave him alone [with me]?!"—and reminded me that she had plenty of grievances against me, too (Right. Equivalent to sucking my H's dick.)—while I was in complete non-functioning shock following dday—cried in anger and jealousy because I had a loving family and children around (and, therefore, wasn't suffering like she was)—and assured me that we'd "sit down together again, laugh and cry together." I realize now that she was anticipating that my brother's death would melt all animosity and bring us all together again. When it didn't, she blamed me for the family schism. She called her high school boyfriend the month my brother died. She married him the month after the last memorial service. She inherited my parents' cabin when my brother died with all MY family's memories.

 

Do I have to be in the same place again with this person if my children wish it?

 

 

No, you don't! Take control & say NOOO, if that's what you want. You don't have to do anything you don't want to, if your kids wish to see her, they can do that on their own terms. You're their mother & they need to respect your wishes regardless if they agree. Your brother passed, this woman isn't your blood, you don't owe her anything.

[katielee]

why does he have to say anything but "you will treat merrmeade respectfully or else!" And anything derogatory they say about you he shuts down as something he just won't hear.

[merrmeade]

why does he have to say anything but "you will treat merrmeade respectfully or else!" And anything derogatory they say about you he shuts down as something he just won't hear.

I agree and have asked him to do this.

 

Here are the issues:

First of all, he either brings it up out of context or waits for the next time someone alludes to a derogatory remark made by someone else (that's usually their way - no one takes responsibility).

 

In the first kind of confrontation out of context, he has to talk about something that is carefully rug-swept and maintained with a tacit agreement carefully avoided by everyone in the family. They ALL deny, rug-sweep, avoid conflict and pretend until something or someone breaks in a moment of extraordinary duress. They will make light, insist on their own innocence and be uncomfortable that he's breaking an understood code of behavior. THey don't do uncomfortable truth for very long. That's one thing.

 

The other thing is that "they" are only secondarily the problem. The problem is the brother's apparent hatred of me, which I think is probably fueled by her (guilt, jealousy, whatever it is - I don't really know: never been there, never done that). The rest of them are fine, lovely with me. I do love them. I only know that no one shuts the brother up (if I know about this at all it's because he talked and someone listened, right?) because, well, I don't know. To me that's the question. I felt close enough to the deceased sister to ask her this and she insisted that she couldn't make him stop. Personally I think that's the problem. They don't see it as a disloyalty to me, and he is their brother. They listen and try not to offend him probably. I'm not family when all is said and done.

 

But HOW, I ask, does H - who himself can barely grasp, much less spend time thinking about - all these nuances explain to them and why it's important. He's cut from the same cloth and understands the unspoken rules. They are all SO practiced at non-confrontation, speculation and blame-shifting that they wouldn't understand why the issue is theirs. Isn't it mine and bro's? So you see? Not getting involved and not knowing, they will assume it's 'our' problem and clearly I've done something some time to make him hate me so. So back to status quo: Listen, don't agree but don't antagonize.

 

Or he can wait for the next derogatory remark. We actually have discussed this, but I should probably reinforce how important to me it is that he clarify in no uncertain terms that he will not tolerate it. I think that's where we go. He's assured me he will do this with his brother. I need to remind him that to ignore nuances, innuendos and asides are just as hurtful and disrespectful. He will have a harder time with that. It's on the side of acknowledging white elephants, not a family skill or value.