Those in reconciliation- WS driving me nuts-

[gettingstronger]

Ok, well maybe not nuts- but there are times when his remorse gets kind of heavy-

 

Have any of you gone through this-I feel a bit guilty that there are times I just do not feel like soothing him when he gets this way- I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I know guilt and remorse can be heavy and I feel for him- but.... there are times I just want to say it almost feels like I am martyring myself here-I know part of it is that he is terrified he is not doing enough to keep us together, that the idea that I no longer believe in forever (for anyone or anything-not just us) lurks in his mind- he used to find it funny when men looked at me, now he says things like "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it"

 

DISCLOSURE- I know I will defend he and I, its OK- write away, I need all perspectives even if I try to reason them away!

[autumnnight]

I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I think this is a good idea. While you love him, soothing in this case really isn't your job and doesn't solve the problem

 

And I have to say I admire you (I always have but now even more). Some BS would relish the misery of their WS. I think it speaks to your character that you want to help him dig out of this. You're a good woman.

[gettingstronger]

I think this is a good idea. While you love him, soothing in this case really isn't your job and doesn't solve the problem

 

And I have to say I admire you (I always have but now even more). Some BS would relish the misery of their WS. I think it speaks to your character that you want to help him dig out of this. You're a good woman.

 

 

 

Thank you for this- I have to agree- its natural, at least for me, to soothe someone you love that is in pain, but it really does not solve the problem- I am thinking his guilt and remorse has moved from an "us" issue to a "him" issue- I really do not want him to live his life in pain and regret, I want him to heal as well- I know we will never be "normal" again but a little closer to the old "us" would be nice- we were pretty carefree prior to this- dark and brooding is sexy for only so long

[merrmeade]

No, no, no, no, no, no, gs! This is not freaking remorse. This is just another f--king facet of SHAME! It's about him, not you. That's why when it happens you feel this need to comfort him. He's shifted the focus - again. No, he should be comforted by your strength, improvement and recovery. Don't you get it? It's the whole point and I'm surprised your MC hasn't helped you move from this. He needs IC.

 

In my last session of IC we talked about this, what it would be like if my WH and I came in to see her together - and this is after she'd talked to the MC that worked with us for about 5 months about 9 months ago. My IC said that she'd seen this with a lot of unfaithful partners, that MC progress goes only as far as their ability to deal with their individual bullsh-t.

 

Call it narcissism. Call it shame. It's still all about him.

[gettingstronger]

No, no, no, no, no, no, gs! This is not freaking remorse. This is just another f--king facet of SHAME! It's about him, not you. That's why when it happens you feel this need to comfort him. He's shifted the focus - again. No, he should be comforted by your strength, improvement and recovery. Don't you get it? It's the whole point and I'm surprised your MC hasn't helped you move from this. He needs IC.

 

In my last session of IC we talked about this, what it would be like if my WH and I came in to see her together - and this is after she'd talked to the MC that worked with us for about 5 months about 9 months ago. My IC said that she'd seen this with a lot of unfaithful partners, that MC progress goes only as far as their ability to deal with their individual bullsh-t.

 

Call it narcissism. Call it shame. It's still all about him.

 

 

This is where I will rely on my disclosure above and argue your points (I do appreciate them and I am listening BTW)

 

I agree, it does shift it to be all about him and that is bothersome, but is it unrealistic for me to expect him to grow and heal without it at least being partially about him- kind of stuck between the two ideas- how can I expect him to swallow his feelings around me and still deal with them head on-

 

I think this weekend I will talk with him about my feelings and push him towards IC to deal with his messy head- I do not think he is a narcissist, but he is incredibly selfish-

 

Lots of this is a result of a terrible childhood- but guess what, I had a great childhood but am having a crappy adulthood- who wins there?

[Lois_Griffin]

Ok, well maybe not nuts- but there are times when his remorse gets kind of heavy-

 

Have any of you gone through this-I feel a bit guilty that there are times I just do not feel like soothing him when he gets this way- I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I know guilt and remorse can be heavy and I feel for him- but.... there are times I just want to say it almost feels like I am martyring myself here-I know part of it is that he is terrified he is not doing enough to keep us together, that the idea that I no longer believe in forever (for anyone or anything-not just us) lurks in his mind- he used to find it funny when men looked at me, now he says things like "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it"

 

DISCLOSURE- I know I will defend he and I, its OK- write away, I need all perspectives even if I try to reason them away!

Putting on a big dog and pony show of how 'remorseful' he is just sounds like a manipulative "feel sorry for me!' tactic. He sounds like quite the drama queen. Not only that, but apparently, he STILL thinks it's the ALL ABOUT HIM show. Pathetic.

 

Hopefully, one day he'll man the hell up and stop acting like a whiney, needy, weak, sorrowful little man. I cant imagine how utterly unattractive that is.

[gettingstronger]

Putting on a big dog and pony show of how 'remorseful' he is just sounds like a manipulative "feel sorry for me!' tactic. He sounds like quite the drama queen. Not only that, but apparently, he STILL thinks it's the ALL ABOUT HIM show. Pathetic.

 

Hopefully, one day he'll man the hell up and stop acting like a whiney, needy, weak, sorrowful little man. I cant imagine how utterly unattractive that is.

 

 

Again- citing disclosure above- I do not think its a dog and pony show at all- he is not being overly dramatic and manipulative- I understand it sounds that way and yes, based on his history of being a cheater its entirely possible but my gut says no- I believe in him and I believe in redemption so I am approaching this from that angle-

 

I am wondering (but not challenging you) if you are in reconciliation or not- not minimizing your thoughts, just wondering if you are reconciling- I would not wish this position on anyone, its tough stuff-but I do have to say its nearly impossible to explain to anyone not experienced in it-

[minimariah]

Ok, well maybe not nuts- but there are times when his remorse gets kind of heavy-

 

Have any of you gone through this-I feel a bit guilty that there are times I just do not feel like soothing him when he gets this way- I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I know guilt and remorse can be heavy and I feel for him- but.... there are times I just want to say it almost feels like I am martyring myself here-I know part of it is that he is terrified he is not doing enough to keep us together, that the idea that I no longer believe in forever (for anyone or anything-not just us) lurks in his mind- he used to find it funny when men looked at me, now he says things like "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it"

 

DISCLOSURE- I know I will defend he and I, its OK- write away, I need all perspectives even if I try to reason them away!

 

been in a situation like this although it wasn't a marriage - just a young relationship. & yeah, i know what you mean.

 

it does get heavy. & it's not a show or acting either.

 

you know, in your other thread you wrote about how he said that he might give up -- my then boyfriend told me that at one point, too. however - he was so afraid of me not forgiving him that he was ready to bail out before i gave up on HIM. so... another perspective, maybe.

 

you shouldn't feel guilty. try to be a support and talk that out. but let him do the heavy lift.

[merrmeade]

But okay. Just on the shame side. Considering for a moment what he needs to deal with his sense of culpability.

 

It's a very good question but one that he needs to work on with his own IC, as I said. I called it bullsh-t but let me temper that a bit. Even without the childhood issues some people have that leave them stuck in shame, there will certainly be very real and necessary sense of guilt. And I also have been questioning this aspect of infidelity and reconciliation.

 

That is, one person has committed a grave injury against another. This is a fact. Whenever an individual has taken something precious or someone, a life even, from someone else, there's an injury or debt left between them. How does the perpetrator compensate - for the sake of the other and him/herself?

 

This question has been working itself in my mind for a while. There's the one side, that of the perpetrator. He has to pay somehow, doesn't he? If he's committed a crime, he gets punished by law. If the injury isn't against the law, then what? And even if he's 'punished' by some external decree, what about his own sense of guilt? Yes, he can pray and meditate on absolution provided by his religious beliefs. But, leaving religion out of it, there is still this injury done.

 

So how does the perpetrator 'pay' and get over his own sense of guilt?

 

First possibility is that he could just forget about it. But obviously - well, to most of us - that's not right or just. But it might occur to some to be a real skill set. Example: My WH actually said to me once (one of those "funny things WSs say") that he had succeeded in putting all that "out of his mind" - implying: Why couldn't I? He was trying to help me! (That time, I successfully pointed out to him that this was sociopathic thinking though clearly he just handled it by never saying the same thing again.) This is not what people who want to save their souls and/or grow up do.

 

Second, he could verbally flagellate himself - a lot. Every time he's reminded of his injury, in fact. Like when he sees a guy oggling you, for example. Not very healthy either though not a scenario I know personally.

 

Third, he could examine himself. That would include why he was susceptible —the circumstances, his background (childhood relationships, etc), his personality. He could come to an understanding of why 'it' happened. At that point, he is better able to look from himself and his leave his 'terribleness' with the past and look out to the person(s) he's injured. He cannot take away the injury. It is done and he is responsible.

 

I think people do different things here. They go to the injured parties, for one, and acknowledge what they did. They realize they may not be forgiven, but they need to do it anyway - for themselves. Maybe they try to DO or give some kind of compensation as well. I guess this is where therapy helps a lot. What does it take?

 

I think a lot of WSs try to shortcut the self-examination part and go straight to compensation when they're reconciling. You know the cant: 'I did everything I could, was the model wife/husband, sacrificed, put him/her first in everything..." But it's meaningless without evidence they've faced the fact that the deed is done; the damage, irreversible. And they did it and cannot change it.

 

But here is where it should get better. Whatever stage they're in, trying to reconcile their own 'sins' to themselves, renewal and redemption should be because of your love. They should turn their self-hatred into other-directed appreciation and gratitude. Compensation becomes a whole new level of mature actualized being. They work on showing you their love and appreciation for your love and forgiveness.

 

Number 3 is my fantasy.

[autumnnight]

How does the perpetrator compensate - for the sake of the other and him/herself?

 

Here's the thing: they can't. Even if a murderer spends his life in prison (heck, even if he gets the chair), it does not bring the dead loved one back. If someone rips off my arm, even if they pay my medical bills and for the prosthetic....my arm is still gone.

 

The same with cheating. Short of going back in time and never cheating at all, there is no compensation, there is no payment that satisfies the "debt."

 

If a couple is looking for something that is big enough, miserable enough, or long enough to pay for it or fix it, they'll never recover. That's the hard truth.

 

So the question is: can I live with that and still have a real marriage?

[TrustedthenBusted]

Gettingstronger,

 

I totally get where you are coming from, and my feelings on it sit somewhere in between being annoyed at my WS for the way she portrays her remorse ( which is that shame/martyrdom thing others have mentioned ) and understanding that even if it IS that shame/martyrdom thing, I am still the person in her life who needs to understand and listen. In fact, she has nobody else ( except a therapist ) to say this stuff to, so in that way I'm glad it's me she brings it up with, and not some guy from her office or something.

 

 

Anyway, point being, it can be very difficult to deal with, because what they WANT to hear is " Oh, it's ok honey...that was a long time ago.." But the thing is... it's NOT OK, and never will be.

 

So I always just say something like " Thanks for sharing that with me. I'm glad you brought it up rather than hold it in. I'd probably feel the same way in your situation, so I totally get it. Sorry the whole thing is bothering you right now. Triggers definitely suck."

 

But I really try to shy away from soothing or comforting, or saying I'm totally over it or any of that stuff. I try to acknowledge that most days are good, and some are still challenging.

 

At the most, I think I've said " Well, at least it's not like this everyday, or very often....so that's good. "

 

It isn't fair that we need to comfort our WS's, but we constantly try to teach our children that life isn't fair, right? In this case, I think we owe it to OURSELVES to be understanding when our WS's express guilt. In the beginning, that's all we wanted, so we need to keep that in mind.

 

That said, yeah...it's rough when the "guilt" still seems selfish. Sometimes my wife will go on rants where she said " I screwed everything up. I am so mad at myself for being so selfish and stupid. Im forever tainted now. You'll never look at me the same way. Blah blah blah.

 

it sucks to listen to, but it's her reality, and probably isn't easy stuff to deal with. But if I want to stay together, I have to listen to it occasionally. Just like some of those horrible reality shows she watches... I just listen, and know that if I'm patient, it will be over in about 30 minutes.

[merrmeade]

Gettingstronger,

 

I totally get where you are coming from, and my feelings on it sit somewhere in between being annoyed at my WS for the way she portrays her remorse ( which is that shame/martyrdom thing others have mentioned ) and understanding that even if it IS that shame/martyrdom thing, I am still the person in her life who needs to understand and listen. In fact, she has nobody else ( except a therapist ) to say this stuff to, so in that way I'm glad it's me she brings it up with, and not some guy from her office or something.

 

 

Anyway, point being, it can be very difficult to deal with, because what they WANT to hear is " Oh, it's ok honey...that was a long time ago.." But the thing is... it's NOT OK, and never will be.

 

So I always just say something like " Thanks for sharing that with me. I'm glad you brought it up rather than hold it in. I'd probably feel the same way in your situation, so I totally get it. Sorry the whole thing is bothering you right now. Triggers definitely suck."

 

But I really try to shy away from soothing or comforting, or saying I'm totally over it or any of that stuff. I try to acknowledge that most days are good, and some are still challenging.

 

At the most, I think I've said " Well, at least it's not like this everyday, or very often....so that's good. "

 

It isn't fair that we need to comfort our WS's, but we constantly try to teach our children that life isn't fair, right? In this case, I think we owe it to OURSELVES to be understanding when our WS's express guilt. In the beginning, that's all we wanted, so we need to keep that in mind.

 

That said, yeah...it's rough when the "guilt" still seems selfish. Sometimes my wife will go on rants where she said " I screwed everything up. I am so mad at myself for being so selfish and stupid. Im forever tainted now. You'll never look at me the same way. Blah blah blah.

 

it sucks to listen to, but it's her reality, and probably isn't easy stuff to deal with. But if I want to stay together, I have to listen to it occasionally. Just like some of those horrible reality shows she watches... I just listen, and know that if I'm patient, it will be over in about 30 minutes.

Thank you for that post. I think it sounds helpful for gs maybe, but for me it's just great to know there's someone out there like you, working on things I know intimately but doing it so much better. I'm humbled. Though no matter what a great individual a BS may become, it doesn't change the truth or suckiness of the reality of what happened and what it means. It's done and what it is.

[merrmeade]

Here's the thing: they can't. Even if a murderer spends his life in prison (heck, even if he gets the chair), it does not bring the dead loved one back. If someone rips off my arm, even if they pay my medical bills and for the prosthetic....my arm is still gone.

 

The same with cheating. Short of going back in time and never cheating at all, there is no compensation, there is no payment that satisfies the "debt."

 

If a couple is looking for something that is big enough, miserable enough, or long enough to pay for it or fix it, they'll never recover. That's the hard truth.

 

So the question is: can I live with that and still have a real marriage?

Well, that IS the question, isn't it? And I just don't think so. Not a great one anyway. You can make it the best it can be maybe given all the limitations and maybe that potential is better for some than others. It would take a pretty special WS to work with in order to make it 'real' and great.

[Bittersweetie]

I have days when I feel really low about what I did. Most of the time I work through it by myself. It isn't my H's job to make me feel better about my terrible choices, especially the ones that hurt him. One of the things that got me into my mess was my thinking that it was my H's job to make me happy and fix me. Only I can make myself happy and fix me. So when I feel particularly angry and upset at myself, I work through it. If I really need help, then I ask for help from him straight out.

 

When your H says things like - "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it" - that almost seems a bit passive-aggressive, looking for validation, tell me everything will be okay. If he wants help, he should ask for specific help.

 

I think IC would be a good next step, and to ask him why he feels the need to say things like that and why he cannot do it on his own.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Bittersweetie

[Furious]

Ok, well maybe not nuts- but there are times when his remorse gets kind of heavy-

 

Have any of you gone through this-I feel a bit guilty that there are times I just do not feel like soothing him when he gets this way- I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I know guilt and remorse can be heavy and I feel for him- but.... there are times I just want to say it almost feels like I am martyring myself here-I know part of it is that he is terrified he is not doing enough to keep us together, that the idea that I no longer believe in forever (for anyone or anything-not just us) lurks in his mind- he used to find it funny when men looked at me, now he says things like "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it"

 

DISCLOSURE- I know I will defend he and I, its OK- write away, I need all perspectives even if I try to reason them away!

 

 

I thinks he's mourning the image he once held in your eyes. For some folks how they are perceived is more important than who they really are.

[autumnnight]

It would take a pretty special WS to work with in order to make it 'real' and great.

 

Actually it takes both. And if both aren't willing, then the marriage needs to end.

[merrmeade]

Actually it takes both. And if both aren't willing, then the marriage needs to end.

Of course it does. I saw that and knew somebody would jump on it. But really it's obvious; it's a relationship. The point was that they have to both be working on the same things together. Takes two.

[autumnnight]

Of course it does. I saw that and knew somebody would jump on it. But really it's obvious; it's a relationship. The point was that they have to both be working on the same things together. Takes two.

 

You understand that, which is why y'all are making progress despite your H's terrible betrayal. That is why I think people like you, getting stronger, etc. will make it.

 

Some people don;t understand that though.

[merrmeade]

Also, it seems like OP has kind of dealt with the A and is doing well. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

Although I've been gradually reducing the frequency of my IC sessions because I got so much better ('getting stronger' too) because we agreed I'd met my goals — got "myself" back, felt on top of things again, left the couch, so to speak. Certainly in a better place than my husband. But now that I'm not going as much — and, therefore, not talking to anyone about those things (or anything) as much — I've started ruminating again about H's annoying lack of understanding or willingness to face his own demons.

 

In other words, I think we're all agreeing it's a process you do together with the same focus — each of you making yourself a better and stronger human being, which then enables you to work together on the marriage effectively. But I think this means that the obsessive, self-deprecating shame detour can be just as damaging and oppressive to the relationship as lack of accountability.

[gettingstronger]

Thank you all- I believe there is truth in every post and something to learn and consider in every post- for me, the hard part is I am just not that "deep" as in, I am having a hard time accepting the fact my life and marriage are so complex and difficult right now-I loved my carefree self and yeah, maybe thats why I am in this position in the first place-maybe I missed red flags, I don't know- I think I was just trusting and it bit me in the butt- add to it, he is indeed a jerk on some level-no denying that either-

 

Thanks again for all the thoughts and for giving a rip enough to give me your thoughts-

[seren]

We are almost 8 years from H's affair, he still struggles with guilt, remorse, call it what you will. It gets so bad he has full blown anxiety attacks, granted there are other things at play, he has combat stress and the affair was all tied up with a really bad time in his life (not an excuse, but one of the reasons for his meltdown).

 

I am well past any anger at most I feel sad that we have an affair as part of our long marriage history, but it is what it is. Generally our life is wonderfully happy, of course the affair cannot be forgotten, but the affair has been forgiven years ago and we have changed our lives, our marriage and have made changes to all aspects of our lives. BUT, he has times when he cannot reconcile with himself, he cannot go back and be the man he thought he was and that makes him ashamed. I say to him that he needs to look ahead, that looking back is no good as it cannot be changed. For the most part he is fine, but at times when something triggers him, he struggles hugely with what he did.

 

I take shared responsibility for our marriage problems at the time, but obviously not the affair. It doesn't help that he has always felt not good enough for me, I tell him this pedestal he has me on is getting so high I am dizzy, which diffuses things a little. It can be a pain in the bum at times and walking on eggshells isn't good if it is most of the time. But, as long as it helps then I am happy to do so. it is as you say, we always want to nurture, love and protect those we love the most. If it is becoming a problem you both need to talk about it, openly and fully otherwise it becomes worse for you.

 

I can usually spot the guilt building up, so I make sure to be extra loving and praise him for being a good man more. I know for some this wouldn't be the way they would deal with things and that's fine. But, for those we love, most things are possible. I hope it gets better for you both. x seren

[AlwaysGrowing]

In my opinion, for a successful R, the FWS...has to pick up and implement the traits they feel they lack...or the ones that they point to..that others have..that they do not.

 

It is common for a FWS to say "you (BS) are so strong", "you (BS) are too good for me". It is used as a compliment....but it is really a shield. For as long as they get to hide behind their BS so-called greatness...they themselves don't have to do the work to possess what they say is so "great".

 

 

If it is wonderful to have a strong spouse....wouldn't they want to "gift" their spouse with the same type that they say they admire?

 

FWS, who do the internal work....are so far removed from that former self...that they have a difficult time speaking/acting from that viewpoint....it just isn't them anymore. They are able to discuss the affair or affairs without all the emotional baggage tied to it as they don't own/are that behaviour anymore...so the luggage isn't theirs to claim. Not to say that they don't own the past...just that past has been processed and is not sitting there all by itself. The lessons/growth learned are integrated.

 

 

Toxic shame can stop all growth. One needs to deal with that first....mainly...where is it anchored? When/where/why did one learn that unhealthy coping mechanism? This is why IC is so very important...it is Not just in addressing the/any existing poor coping skills..but to ensure that one does not use even more unhealthy ones in trying to move forward.

[Mr. Lucky]

I can usually spot the guilt building up, so I make sure to be extra loving and praise him for being a good man more. I know for some this wouldn't be the way they would deal with things and that's fine. But, for those we love, most things are possible. I hope it gets better for you both. x seren

 

Wow, nice post. And humbling too because I'm not sure I'm a good enough person to ever pull this kind of forgiveness off...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Popsicle]

Ok, well maybe not nuts- but there are times when his remorse gets kind of heavy-

 

Have any of you gone through this-I feel a bit guilty that there are times I just do not feel like soothing him when he gets this way- I am thinking maybe cutting way back on joint counseling and encouraging him to do IC instead-

 

I know guilt and remorse can be heavy and I feel for him- but.... there are times I just want to say it almost feels like I am martyring myself here-I know part of it is that he is terrified he is not doing enough to keep us together, that the idea that I no longer believe in forever (for anyone or anything-not just us) lurks in his mind- he used to find it funny when men looked at me, now he says things like "he would probably treat you better than I did, I so blew it"

 

DISCLOSURE- I know I will defend he and I, its OK- write away, I need all perspectives even if I try to reason them away!

 

He does this because it works on you, or rather, it has been working on you. Just tell him that you don't like it anymore and to ease up and just act a little more normal.

[gettingstronger]

We talked last night and I used lots of your insights to guide it-thank you- he says lots stems from feeling insecure- like Serens husband-he has never felt good enough for me and now its even worse (I don't understand that as being a factor in cheating, but OK) - he is going to schedule some IC for his issues so that the bulk does not rain down on us, but rather so he can work on him with a neutral party- so today is a new day and I am thankful to you all-