I'm getting friend zoned - I need to change

[noknow]

Hello. This is my first post on LS.

 

I'm here because I think I have identified a critical pattern that is holding me back in deepening relationship with women. And I am ready to throw as much energy and resource to change this as much as possible. On the last 3+ dates I have been friend zoned.

 

About Me

I am an introverted male, 30, and work as a Software Engineer, nerd alert! Because of a lack of social skills, social anxiety, ADHD-pi, moving around the world, and career ambition, I haven't started dating until my much later twenties. For an Engineer I am actually really good looking and in good shape although on the thin side. I think my friends would describe me as that really nice/shy guy. I would say I do have self-esteem and sensitivity issues that I've been trying to improve for the longest time and have made some progress through therapy. I'm also late I think developing my social skills and self-awareness but what are you gonna do. But I do consider myself very adventurous (mountaineer and climber), ambitious/enterprising (Starting a blog this year, I'll be getting into real estate property next year, and hopefully my own business someday), open minded (example: lived in two countries 3 years), and tenacious when it comes to learning something.

 

Relationship Background

I've had 1 serious relationship that lasted for 1.5 years before I started dating. We saw each other over the course of 3 months before we got intimate and about four when we started having sex. In the end, she said I had all the qualities she liked but didn't feel a spark anymore. We are friends.

 

The Dates:

#1

Dated a doctor for about 2 months. She asked me out and we saw each intensely. We got really close but had no sex, then she said wanted to be friends and ended up ghosting me.

 

#2

Dated an Engineer girl for about 2 months intensely. I was not physically aggressive at all. We went out on adventures all the time and enjoyed each others company. At the end of it she wanted to be friends.

 

#3

Dated a Psychologist I think I liked more for her looks than her. 1 month in she started initiating contact, hand holding. At Dinner she randomly kissed me. We started getting more physical but never had sex. She went cold on me for about a week. Then she says she does not see a romantic relationship with me. This confused the hell out of me since she initiated and things were looking to get more intimate. I mean, WTF? I said to her that I wasn't interested in being friends and only dating.

 

Some current strengths:

* I'm not needy and very independent. I'll only text when when I want to do something. I can't stand convos in text. I have lots of hobbies and friends that I can spend time with.

* I'm very adventurous and take my dates climbing, kayaking, and was going to take one sky diving but oh well...

* I'm a good listener

* I pay attention to reciprocating

 

Some current weaknesses:

* I get emotionally invested too fast. I want to feel that deep emotion and connection with someone right away. I'm not sure if this is perceived as a weakness and leads me into FZ.

* I'm not sure if I have a problem with intimacy or if I just move really slow.

* Very passive

 

Women I'd like to attract:

* Mid 20's to mid 30's

* Career oriented driven professionals

Still honing on the details on this as I go.

 

I'm looking for all suggestions, especially any blogs or books I can read.

But resources that would help me answer these question would help too:

* How can I solve the "nice guy" problem?

* How can I stimulate more attraction and be more seductive? But I'm not looking to become a pickup artist.

* How can I be more confident/hesitate less with women?

Edited July 25, 2017 by noknow

[Cookiesandough]

You have to be more sexually aggressive. The third girl seems like she was very patient. She kissed you out of nowhere. I don't understand what excuse you have to have no escalated things further (heavier kissing, touching).

 

I'd always heard about this phenomena, but I passed it off as myth. Until it happened to me. I realize now I get weird vibes from guys who don't attempt to at least kiss by the second date if all has gone well. It's like they lack confidence or they are frigid or something. I went on a date with this attractive guy, but on our second date he he was so stiff and sexless (maybe out of disinterest, i'll never know), and did not try to kiss me as it ended. I declined a third date because I no longer was attracted. I started to see him one of my girlfriends which scared me. But I wasn't gonna friendzone him because that's just cruel and I don't keep male friends. I told him I didn't think we were a match.

[CoolJoe]

Girls like confident guys with passion/ambition/drive.

 

Being an introvert isn't a deal breaker -- if it were more introverts would be single. Being passive however can often be a deal breaker for women. Particularly successful women.

 

So really you'll have to find ways to develop your inner fire and be less passive OR remain that way but lower your standards and seek women who are less ambitious than the average girl. There are lots of girls out there who are passive and like to stay home and that sort of thing. It's all about compatibility.

 

Find one of those girls, or up your game. Those are really your two choices if you want a relationship that will last.

[smackie9]

Women get turned off when a man doesn't show her that he wants to bang her, or lust after her. She doesn't feel desired, hence getting friend zoned.

[noknow]

But how aggressive should I be? Should I be aggressive from the beginning?

Is my role to pursue as aggressive as possible and she sets the pace?

None of this is clear to me.

[Newtoallofthis]

But how aggressive should I be? Should I be aggressive from the beginning?

Is my role to pursue as aggressive as possible and she sets the pace?

None of this is clear to me.

 

I'm no way an expert but if a date went well I would expect the guy to lean in for a kiss at least at the end of the evening. It confirms that the date went well, you feel a spark and shows intention for another meet up.

 

I'm no way promiscuous but I'm surprised that it didn't develop more physically with these girls as you were seeing some of them over weeks/months.

 

I think most girls probably still wait for guys to take the lead and if it doesn't happen, they may assume you're not physically attracted to them, and then the moment to turn it into something more passes.

 

I would suggest being more forward after a handful of dates....perhaps invite them for dinner round yours? That way things may naturally progress into the bedroom

 

With regards to the type of woman you're into, that seems reasonable to me, however I would say don't rule out someone if they're not career driven. Not everyone considers work to be a massive important part of their life and it would be a shame to miss out on a potential good date because they didn't have a 'career'.

 

Good luck!

[d0nnivain]

This is going to sound silly but watch the movie Hitch. Pay particular attention to the part about the 1st kiss.

 

When dating 30 year old women, break the touch barrier on the first date: touch her harm, move her hair out of her face, put your hand at the small of her back etc. Do something to initiate G rated physical contact.

 

 

Try to end the date with at least a peck on the cheek.

 

 

Try to end the 2nd date with a kiss on the lips.

 

 

The psychologist by virtue of her profession figured out your issue & thus initiated hand holding & kissing but when you didn't reciprocate she lost interest.

 

 

I'm surprised you got 3 women to stick around as long as these did if you weren't expressing any physical desire for them.

 

 

I am not suggesting you expect first date sex every time you go out but do open yourself up to the possibility.

[CloudyHead]

Career driven professional women are not attracted to passive men.

 

It is okay to ask a woman if you can kiss her at the end of the date. Actually, I'd prefer being asked "can I kiss you?" than having a guy come at me hard and fast for a kiss. It shows respect but also shows you're interested in her.

[guest569]

Passive = not interested or don't know what i want.

 

I'm a slow mover and don't like this "aggressive " thing but i do prefer the man to make some moves or else you are the one doing the friend zoning.

[Cookiesandough]

But how aggressive should I be? Should I be aggressive from the beginning?

Is my role to pursue as aggressive as possible and she sets the pace?

None of this is clear to me.

 

It varies from girl to girl and how the date went. It's ok to be seductive from the beginning. I get it's hard because it's not natural to you, but if you hide your sexual attraction to the person and set a friend vibe that is what you'll get. You have to do some reading, not just go up and grab her head and make out...., pick up on subtle clues. You have to turn up the seduction. It's important for you to lead and be confident

[CoolJoe]

I'm no way an expert but if a date went well I would expect the guy to lean in for a kiss at least at the end of the evening. It confirms that the date went well, you feel a spark and shows intention for another meet up.

 

I'm no way promiscuous but I'm surprised that it didn't develop more physically with these girls as you were seeing some of them over weeks/months.

 

I think most girls probably still wait for guys to take the lead and if it doesn't happen, they may assume you're not physically attracted to them, and then the moment to turn it into something more passes.

 

I would suggest being more forward after a handful of dates....perhaps invite them for dinner round yours? That way things may naturally progress into the bedroom

 

With regards to the type of woman you're into, that seems reasonable to me, however I would say don't rule out someone if they're not career driven. Not everyone considers work to be a massive important part of their life and it would be a shame to miss out on a potential good date because they didn't have a 'career'.

 

Good luck!

 

Disagree. All women and dating situations are different. Recently I kissed my date after one date and it turned her off -- it was clear she was into me by her texting and initiating but I jumped the gun and she had her past hangups and I didn't let time and trust build. Should have waited at least until date 2.

 

In another instance I waited until date three and that was a bit too long for that particular girl.

 

I have a female friend who told me no kissing on the first date! So yeah it varies. No one size fits all. You just have to feel it. Good luck!

[preraph]

First, I'm very happy that you are making some slow progress through therapy and you sound like a good guy and a smart one for addressing your social and other issues.

 

First you have to understand that it is not easy to find the right person for things to take off with. It's a numbers game. Especially dating online but anytime, really. So it's great you're active and have interesting hobbies, etc.

 

The one thing I am getting where you're messing up here is you aren't sexually aggressive enough. So women get used to just being friends. Yes, there may be one who will wait and retain some interest romantically, but for the most part, confidence and a man moving ahead at a steady pace physically is what is most attractive and comfortable to women. I mean, they can always slow you down and some will, but they want to know you're physically attracted to them as well as like them, of course. Women do not like hesitation and fear in a man pursuing them.

 

So that's what to work on. And I would say when in doubt, just go back to the old standby dating rules: If you meet online, then the first meeting shouldn't even be a real date, just cup of coffee or even better, some ice cream and is just to check each other out. Shouldn't be real long. And probably shouldn't require a kiss at the end of the night, though maybe a hug if you think you hit it off and will see each other again.

 

So then after that first real date, you touch her in gentlemanly ways, like on her back while pulling her chair out or taking her elbow to guide her to the seat at the theater. At the end of the night, you drop her off at her home or cab and kiss her on the mouth.

 

If she accepts a second date, it's all good because you have shown you are not just wanting to be friends and kissed her already, so then you can be more confident that she is okay with kissing, holding hands, etc. and proceed at whatever pace seems most natural between the two of you, but do progress things. Don't keep it at one level more than a couple of dates.

 

So the first real date is the one where everyone is most nervous and awkward, so just know that, but follow the traditional steps. If she turns her head when you go for the mouth, you probably have someone not really interested on your hands and you can just not ask her out again.

 

Good luck. Don't wait. Act.

[GemmaUK]

Like others have said it sounds like you need to employ a bit more sexual aggression - but that can mean sexy affection and kissing sooner. Flirting always being the pre-cursor to all that - always.

 

I don't know if you are talking of meeting women online but if I meet someone from OLD I never and have never kissed, been sexual nor anything of the sort on a first meet up, first date yes - if I want to go on that date but never, not once on a first meet.

[mortensorchid]

Here are a few things you can do for women upon a first date / meeting to indicate that you are interested in that woman (with class and not with trash like a man has in the past with me or other women friends that have shared):

 

1) Be chatty - Don't sit there silently and wait to be asked questions, be chatty. Talk about anything and everything you can think of to start up conversations with her. And with others in general, this says you are open and friendly towards others.

 

2) No touching other than a handshake upon a first introduction and a hug good-bye - I have been out on dates (OLD or otherwise) when the man is trying to touch me at all times. Not blatantly touching the goods but either touching my leg, knee, hair, etc. Or they are giving those subtle little pokes to me. It's annoying, especially when you're not interested at all. And when someone does this to you excessively it really bothers me and turns me off. Don't do it.

 

3) Social awkward "condition" - I understand that some people out there are socially awkward, unsure of themselves, etc. If you exude confidence you will attract more people, keep others at ease around you, be not afraid to talk to strangers, etc., you will be happy with yourself. There are plenty of people who are not comfortable being around others because they are not that happy with themselves. And they (meaning men) often times like chipping away at women's self-esteem because they are unhappy with themselves when they don't feel good about themselves they take it out on others somehow. If this is the case (any of these things could be the case, btw, from one extreme to another), then I don't know what to tell you other than you better get past it or you'll be in trouble FOR LIFE with this.

[d0nnivain]

Excessive touching is indeed bad. But some touching is needed. Touch ONCE & gage her reaction. Don't be all over her, unless she's all over you.

[spiderowl]

I think you need to show some passion and that you are physically attracted to the women you date. I am not saying force yourself on them, but make some kind of move to show you feel more than friendship for them. A kiss on a second date is fine, hand-holding, a hug, putting arm round them.

 

If you are attracted to a guy, then there is something exciting and manly about him showing his interest. If all he talks about is sex and the way you look, then that is too much and too shallow, but showing he desires you but is showing restraint because you matter to him, is exciting.

[preraph]

Excessive touching is indeed bad. But some touching is needed. Touch ONCE & gage her reaction. Don't be all over her, unless she's all over you.

 

It's a distinction between respectful touching where early on you avoid the more interesting body parts and just touch the arm, hand, maybe knee briefly, and not groping private parts, for lack of a better term, or groping at all in a grabby way, but just in a considerate polite or casual way.

[noknow]

I didn't expect this much support but thank you for the replies everyone. Posting this topic was hard because it's very embarrassing to ask for this kind of help. It's emasculating.

 

Yeah I gather I need to be more active in my physical approach. It's hard for some reason, I guess I'm naturally a reserved private person. But I have to make a change. Ok so I'm going to start with the assumption that the girl wants to be physical. So should be escalating all the time with a reasonable pace.

 

 

With regards to the type of woman you're into, that seems reasonable to me, however I would say don't rule out someone if they're not career driven. Not everyone considers work to be a massive important part of their life and it would be a shame to miss out on a potential good date because they didn't have a 'career'.

 

Good luck!

 

Yes I should be more open about this.

 

 

3) Social awkward "condition" - I understand that some people out there are socially awkward, unsure of themselves, etc. If you exude confidence you will attract more people, keep others at ease around you, be not afraid to talk to strangers, etc., you will be happy with yourself. There are plenty of people who are not comfortable being around others because they are not that happy with themselves. And they (meaning men) often times like chipping away at women's self-esteem because they are unhappy with themselves when they don't feel good about themselves they take it out on others somehow. If this is the case (any of these things could be the case, btw, from one extreme to another), then I don't know what to tell you other than you better get past it or you'll be in trouble FOR LIFE with this.

 

I am socially awkward but I have gotten better at loving myself. Therapy has helped a lot. But I in no way take it out on anyone, just myself sometimes.

 

 

I'm meeting someone this week for beer. We met last year once and are reconnecting. I think a hug and a touch on the shoulder would be appropriate? If all goes well I'll ask her on a date. This is lightening fast for me. Last time I hung out with a girl 3 times before I asked her on a date. Would I ask at the end of the get together or text afterwards?

 

It seems that dating is all about numbers/gaining experience. Especially if I'm late to the game, I guess I need to put my time in. Can anyone else relate?

Edited July 26, 2017 by noknow

[Cookiesandough]

I can totally relate. And absolutely think it is a lot about number/practice. Flirting is an art. I am a pretty inexperienced woman who seems to be friend-zoned a lot . Well, like "take it slow zoned" (Maybe the guy in my first post was trying to FZ me) Can be partly attributed to my lack of experience. Only one guy kissed me on a first date and I couldn't tell you how attractive that made him to me. That he took initiative. But for many people first date is too soon, and you really need to be sure there is off-the-wall chemistry before trying that. But a hug and a touch on the shoulder sound great. Like a squeeze hug goodbye if you had a nice night.

 

What I think is a good strategy to avoid coming off too "aggressive' or sleazy is be sort of hot and cold. Treat her normally, but have a few instances where you get super flirty. Don't be hot and heavy the whole time. Just enough to where she feels desired by you...

Edited July 26, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[Marc878]

Learn to break it off. You don't stay friends with an X.

 

It'll put you in the mindset of accepting less than you want.

[noknow]

Learn to break it off. You don't stay friends with an X.

 

It'll put you in the mindset of accepting less than you want.

 

Thanks Marc. I did this with date #3 for the first time ever and it felt good. So maybe that's a sign of progress.

[guest569]

No need to feel embarrassed! It is something we all learn as we go. Gosh i cringe at my earlier dating experiences but am much more comfortable from experience. What you're planning sound fine. I don't feel that 'sexual aggression' is anything to aspire to. But you can show interest little by little and try to guage her response. If you are comfortable and it feels ok to do..

[joseb]

 

I'm meeting someone this week for beer. We met last year once and are reconnecting. I think a hug and a touch on the shoulder would be appropriate? If all goes well I'll ask her on a date. This is lightening fast for me. Last time I hung out with a girl 3 times before I asked her on a date. Would I ask at the end of the get together or text afterwards?

?

 

You are meeting her for a beer. Sounds like a date to me.

Is there a reason you think it's not a date?

 

 

If if goes ok, escalate and at least touch her (non sexually) if it's going well, you might want to kiss her.

[Bastile]

Haven't read all the posts, and understood all the nuance, but I'll speak on the OP.

 

It reads like a job application. I get the impression that you see dating as one big boyfriend application. A vacancy to apply for or something. Completely the wrong mindset.

 

You were with a girl for 7 months without making a move. I can't actually express how bad of a case that is. That's very extreme.

 

But here are the positives: you have been out with 4 girls, and you are seeing the patterns, and now responding to them.

 

You are an introvert. Introversion is an interesting thing. I'm an introvert too. An "INTP" apparently. I checked that years back, and it's fairly accurate. If there's one thing the personality type can do, it's problem solve. Apply it to dating, and you will be on a different level.

 

Interestingly, It's now flip-flopped. I now actually enjoy messaging women, approaching, sexuality, listening and playing with sexuality and chemistry, etc. Yet, I take the test again, and it's still INTP

 

Point is that introversion gets used as an excuse, and really isn't that relevant to growing into your place as a man. If anything, it's a massive strength. Something to be sharpened, honed, and weaponized.

 

Regarding escalation:

Start being more goal driven. You aren't on the date to "enjoy the ambiance", or to "sample some sushi", or whatever else. You are there because she is bloody gorgeous and her lips make you want to do bad things. Consider any first date that you don't kiss as a failure, and place the responsibility for it on yourself. That's what I do.

 

The goal of a first date is to be kissing a beautiful woman. Simple as. That's why you are there.

 

Start the date with small talk, and rapport. Build it up (or escalate the vibe).

 

People talk about touch too much. Start with your words. First be complimenting her character - should be warm rather than sexual. Then her style, and then building it up to her body and sexuality (something that would get you slapped if you'd have said it prior to escalation).

 

That's what escalation is.

 

With touch? Make an excuse to touch her. Talk about her hands or hair, and play with them. Have fun with it; see how comfortable she is. When you want to kiss her, shut up and stare into her eyes. Feel some electricity, and then go for it.

 

If it gets rebuffed (and it sometimes does), don't let it rattle you. Just try again later. At the very worst, there is always the end of the date to steal the kiss anyway.

[preraph]

This next meeting if it seemed to go well hugger at the end of the day and tell her you enjoyed it and then text or call the next day and see how she is reacting and if she seems happy then in the next couple of days ask her out again.