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Are work promotion or raise a right or a privilege?


Business and Professional Relationships Networking and maintaining a positive environment in the work place is important! Surviving the 9-to-5 within.

 
 
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Old 14th November 2011, 5:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by danstanton View Post
Your points make no sense.
I wasn't making any point. I posed a question.

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Originally Posted by DreamHisGirl View Post
Underperforming employees don't deserve raises/promotions. If it were a right, they'd have no incentive to perform.
Well, I could argue the opposite: if it were a right, then the employer could fire the employee when raise is due (unless it were forbidden to fire people) - that would motivate people to work even harder, if their job were at stake. Discrimination exists not because employers hate women or non-caucasion people, but because these people are willing to work for less money, for various reasons.

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Originally Posted by carhill View Post
I mean, how hard is it to show up to work on time?
It's not too hard... but it's easier to be late!
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Old 14th November 2011, 5:28 PM   #17
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There's a document that shows 4 male programmers got raises, but ranging from $3,000-15,000 and one female who didn't buy she only worked less than 4 months. So,there's some smoke about gender discrimination. Great observation!
If the total compliment of programmers is four and three of the four received raises and those three were male, yeah, I'd agree that it would be a signpost to dig a little deeper. The mitigating factor could be the female's attendance record, but the male's attendance records are unknown (to me) and should be compared if an action is brought to show a pattern of discrimination. If more employees, adjust accordingly by percentage and record.

I still think a 'healthy workplace' action could have traction, though that doesn't directly address your hypothetical. I can say that I've seen enough of these settle to the former employee's advantage to view them as a viable action to pursue or to prepare a defense against. Granted, this is California, so a different jurisdiction. Our resident labor lawyer could comment with more authority.

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It's not too hard... but it's easier to be late!
Yeah, especially if one blames it on the train

Good luck with your project....
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Old 15th November 2011, 1:02 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by carhill View Post
Yeah, especially if one blames it on the train
It's not that I am late, it's that the train is early!

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Good luck with your project....
Thanks. I don't have more info than what I told you.
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Originally Posted by danstanton View Post
lol.... your thought experiment is more like a brainfart. Read a book on employment law/industrial relations, instead of posting nonsense on this forum. Forbidden to fire people? lol....
It always amazes me how the most limited people who can't even express themselves like adults, let alone understand abstract concepts, will vehemently impose their attitudes on others.
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Old 15th November 2011, 1:05 AM   #19
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Because this is a law school hypo, something I'm assuming you'll ultimately be graded upon, I STRONGLY URGE YOU not to use LS to help you flush out your answer.
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Old 15th November 2011, 2:17 AM   #20
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Because this is a law school hypo, something I'm assuming you'll ultimately be graded upon, I STRONGLY URGE YOU not to use LS to help you flush out your answer.
No, no grading, this is for a credit/no credit class. We use hypos to discuss issues, from ethical to social policy, etc. Thanks for your concern, though. I appreciate it.
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Old 16th November 2011, 2:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by danstanton View Post
oh, i understand. i understand your points to be nonsense, based on studies of HRM and Industrial Relations. You're posting items concerning this hypothetical scenario, which most HR professionals and employment lawyers would see as mundane and commonplace. Reading abstract cases of employees with entitlement complexes is comical though. Moreover, you asked for opinions, I simply gave mine.
Yanstanton...You're Yum.

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Old 16th November 2011, 8:33 PM   #22
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Okay, here's my actual experiences with raises/promotions/firings.

I once worked at an internet company. When I was hired, they told me if I worked out after three months I would get a $3000 raise. I worked hard and got the raise. I got a great year review from my manager, I got along well with my team, and my clients said good things about me. I worked in the office, and never handed in a project late, actually I was always early. Eighteen months after I started, a new manager was hired above my current one, and within a month of that I was fired because I "did not meet the standards of the company." She then hired one of her friends. I had no recourse, being in an at-work state, despite my good reviews and positive feedback.

I once worked part-time at a private school. I really liked that job, took good care of the kids, communicated with the parents, was always on time, got along with my manager and the team. In our contracts were guarantee percentage raises every year if we renewed the contract for the following school year. I worked there for six years, the last couple stepping in as manager of the team when my manager was out. I did not get any additional compensation for this; it didn't matter to me, I just liked helping out. Every year I had good reviews from my manager and peers. When my manager's role changed, they needed someone to assistant manage the team. They (not my manager, higher than her) chose someone who had only been at the school a year, with no college degree, and had zero management experience. The reason? Because "it was a snap decision and they didn't have time to call to see if I would be interested before the decision was made." It created an awkward situation where everyone on the team, and the parents at the school even, were asking why I wasn't in that position.

Currently I'm temping at a company. I originally was brought on to do admin support, but the team quickly restructured and I gained more high-level responsibilities, because of my experience. I worked really hard to streamline my duties and build communication with my managers and peers. I had two managers in particular who saw things in different ways and I was able to come up with a solution to get things done that they were both happy with. I worked really hard, was praised and told over and over I would soon be hired. Now, almost a year later after yet another restructure, my high level responsibilities were given to people (temps also) who send out company-wide notices with misspellings and errors while I am answering a phone and making dubs. Now, I am a temp so I really have no say in my duties, but it's been a hit on my morale to be trusted with important duties then have them all taken away.

So, the idea of rewarding employees who work hard, it sounds good in theory but in practice, in my experience, it doesn't matter. It's making me question a lot about the workplace lately.
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Old 17th November 2011, 6:46 PM   #23
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Bittersweetie, thanks for all the information you provided. It's sounds like you haven't had much luck with bosses in you career. It was certainly eye-opening to read your story. Many peope though have bad experiences which compel them to change their workplace, start their own businesses, or even change their careers. It seems like getting along really well with the management is a number one factor in advancement. If you're not super-friends (professionally, personally or both) with your bosses, you're probably wasting your time at that particular position, right?

Maybe it pays to be assertive about promotion. Did you ever apply for the hire position, the one from your second paragraph? I noticed you said it was not yourdirect manager, but someone above her who hired the person with no experience. Any particular reason for that decision? You know, when things are weird, something is going on. I have almost no work experience in the US, but I've noticed that in all countries and in all spheres of life (work, marriage, friendship...) the most valuable thing is to know the rules of the game inside out. To know what exactly it takes to get hired, promoted, demoted, made partner, or fired.

Regrading the manager from your first paragraph, the one that fired you because you "didn't meet the standards," and then went on and hired one of her friends... could this have been taken to a higher level? Did she have anyone above her? Just because you were hired on an at-will basis, doesn't mean you weren't wrongfully terminated. Employment discrimination still applies - if any. Also, if she fired a good worker (you) and hired her friend for that position, she is using the company for her personal intersts - which I am sure the guys above her wouldn't like.

Some people have power trip issues and they exercise those trips on others when they get to a position that enables them to do whatever they want. These people are bad apples, not just for those who work for them, but also for the business itself, because if the employees can't be motivated, the company loses in productivity and quality. And these things happen all the time because these power trippers will abuse their subordinates but kiss their superiors' asses - plus they take credit for other people's work. Additionally, many people don't understand that their organizations can't function well if employees are completely dissatisfied with the management. In fact, statistics show that the most prevalent reason for people seeking new jobs is frustration with the bosses at their current positions.
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Old 17th November 2011, 9:35 PM   #24
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Record, in reality, I have always got along quite well with my direct managers. I feel I've been fortunate in that regard, in terms of keeping in touch after not working together. To clarify based on your questions:

The job where I was fired for "not meeting standards." The funny thing is I was so excited to work for this new manager, I even asked her if she would mentor me to become a better designer, and she said yes. This was days before she fired me. When this firing happened, I was only 24 years old, so I wasn't well equipped to deal with it. I was just in shock as I was escorted out of the building by security. Now, I would say, on what basis? I would ask, what parts of my work exactly do not meet these standards? And I would've definitely contacted someone once I found out she hired a friend. But like I said, I was very young and didn't know better. I clearly remember sitting in her office with the HR lady and the HR lady asking me with a surprised tone, "You had no idea this was coming?" And I was like, no.

My husband worked at this company also and said that not long after my experience HR provided specific guidelines in terminating an employee, like probation periods, which is good. She could've given me a month to find another position within the company. Or even waited a month to terminate me as part of a large layoff where my severance package would've been tripled. So I like to think that maybe my experience did help change things a little for others.

The second job where they promoted the other guy, it being a school, this happened in the late summer and I had no idea that my manager's job had changed and that this other guy had gotten hired until I showed up for work just before the school year started. My manager, who I was very good friends with, actually told me that she wished that she had specifically recommended me for the position, but she thought it was so obvious a choice she didn't say anything. So in reality there was nothing I could've done because I had no idea things were changing. However, I did go to the manager who made the decision, with talking points and everything (I learned my lesson from the above situation) and watched as she deflected and dodged answering me...it was actually quite funny. And whenever a parent asked me why I wasn't in the management position, I referred them to her.

Like I said, I've been lucky that my direct managers have been great and I've gotten along with them. But even that doesn't mean anything. I like my current manager very much, he's great, and I work hard because I want to support him as best I can. But I now no longer expect to get hired or anything. It's sad that I've reached a point where I don't really care about the company...especially since when I started I loved this place.

Sorry for the long messages! I guess I have a lot to say on this subject.
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Old 18th November 2011, 4:15 AM   #25
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Like I said, I've been lucky that my direct managers have been great and I've gotten along with them. But even that doesn't mean anything. I like my current manager very much, he's great, and I work hard because I want to support him as best I can.
History is repeating itself.

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But I now no longer expect to get hired or anything. It's sad that I've reached a point where I don't really care about the company...especially since when I started I loved this place.
Maybe you need to be more assertive. I am not an expert on the subject and I don't know you or the people you mentioned, but something has become a pattern and only YOU can break that pattern. Maybe you are in the wrong places with the wrong people, and maybe these people believe you're not management material.

Often, way to often, people will walk all over the ones who allow it!
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Old 18th November 2011, 10:34 PM   #26
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You know, writing all this stuff out did make me wonder if there was a pattern that had to do with me. And actually today at work my manager wants me to do something that I really do not want to do or even be a part of; I feel it would be taking yet another step back from where I was just two months ago. I need to think about how I am going to approach this so not to fall into the same trap again. It's just challenging because I don't want to push back too hard since I'm still only a temp and getting a job in my current industry is pretty darn difficult.

Thanks for giving me some food for thought though!
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Old 19th November 2011, 1:02 AM   #27
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You know, writing all this stuff out did make me wonder if there was a pattern that had to do with me. And actually today at work my manager wants me to do something that I really do not want to do or even be a part of; I feel it would be taking yet another step back from where I was just two months ago. I need to think about how I am going to approach this so not to fall into the same trap again. It's just challenging because I don't want to push back too hard since I'm still only a temp and getting a job in my current industry is pretty darn difficult.

Thanks for giving me some food for thought though!
Oh, you're more than welcome - and you too gave me some food for thought and information I was not aware of. Once, I asked the Dean of my school what is it that makes you successful in the legal field, and he said "It's all about how you market yourself. Of course, at the end of the day, you have to deliver the product." Our career counselors tells us all the time "It's ot about what you know but who you know." There's also another saying "Dress for the position you want to have." I transform that one into 'act for the position you want to have,' i.e. if you want to be a leader, show leadership skills. But this is just in theory; in practice, people are people and sometimes they care more about their personal interests than anything else.
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