Restoring lines of communication

[What_Next]

It's been a while since I have started a thread on my own, but I think it is time. Most regulars around here know my tale, but for those that don't I can summarize. Approximately 20 years together with my wife. We were living in an environment where we drifted apart for countless reasons, she had an affair, I then had a revenge affair. Things just went VERY badly, if it could happen, it seemed like it did.

 

Fast forward to today, almost a year past D-day we have decided to take a shot at things. It's been so terribly tough. One step forward, 30 steps backward, 50 steps forward 10 backward.

 

Where things often break down is we seem unable to effectively communicate. I'll admit that I am a terrible listener and my wife would admit that she is also. Add to that raw nerves and strong emotions on both sides with regards to our past and it is a receipe for disaster.

 

We both are trying, we really are, but we seem to end up right back where we start all the time.

 

For the record, we've tried MC, two of them and I have no intentions of EVER going back to that. She tried IC for a while, more so to get to the bottom of her affair, she didn't stick with it for many reasons, not her fault at all.

 

So, does anyone have any advice, skills, or just plain anything that we can try? If things don't improve our relationship is doomed and we both know it.

[Surfer203]

I know the ups and downs that you speak of - I know how it feels to work at something that seems hopeless, yet I can't offer you any advice on this. I wish I could help - I am kind of swimming in the same mess as you currently. I know others here will be able to offer some solid advice. Stay strong.

[Yasuandio]

I remember a few years back Mort Fertel pointing to an alternate option than communication and/or getting an understanding of what has happened in a case such as yours. He spoke more of not discussing the past at all. Not "working" on anything to do with the "past.". Instead, focus on the future. This material may have been introduced between 2004-2006. It made a lot of sense to me. He is more commercialized now, but maybe one of his early books would be available on Amazon. He also Marriage Bootcamps. YAS

[John Michael Kane]

Or maybe it's just simply time to divorce.

[What_Next]

John Michael Kane, thanks. How many drum sticks do you go through? You seem to constantly want to beat on that same drum. Good grief.

 

Yas, I'm not really into the whole academic perspective when it comes to this sort of thing. I have read and read and read until my eyes have went crossed. Honestly, I find most of it useless drivel. I do appreciate the suggestion though.

 

Thanks so far everyone, keep the suggestions coming.

[denise_xo]

Have the two of you looked into basic listening and communication skills together online? I try to practice them when my H and I 'collide'. Obviously it's not always that easy to follow in the heat of the moment, but I definitely find that it helps sometimes to reduce tensions. If you both look at it together and make a joint commitment to it, maybe that would be a small step forward.

[updown]

there is a good book called "fighting for your marriage." it teaches how to affectively communicate and work through your fights in a productive manor. if BOTH parties are willing to take each step then it should work just fine.

 

he does mention that if there is contempt in your marriage, this won't work. marriages that contain contempt from either one or both parties, just don't work.

 

it might be just the thing you guys need to learn how to communicate and how to work through fights in a healthy, productive way......

 

other than that i have no advice. we had horrid communication. i got this book when things had fallen completely apart. i read to the " contempt " part and realized i couldn't stop our ship from sinking. he had and still has loads of contempt towards me.....

[What_Next]

Have the two of you looked into basic listening and communication skills together online?

 

I have yes. Most of my improvment in my listening skills are as result of my research. I still have miles to go though.

 

Updown, you might be on to something there. Contempt. I'm not sure that is what I would term it but there is a MASSIVE wedge between us that doesn't seem to be going away.

[fltc]

What_Next, glad to hear from you even if the news isn't good.

 

I can't offer any advice, only my opinion from having followed this from the very beginning and that opinion is that you've done all you can and much more than I would have. I'm not sure she has, you can judge that better than I can.

 

Almost one year ago you posted, "My marriage is over, I must learn to accept that. I must salvage my relationship with my child and with myself."

 

I think you've stalled the inevitable as long as possible, it may not be time to break it off now but I fear that time is coming soon, maybe you two need to sit down and discuss ending it and see where that conversation takes you?

 

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful other than to say don't suffer another year, do what you knew had to be done a year ago.

[UnsureinSeattle]

I dunno- 11 years of being together and several of being close friends before that...

 

and communication is still our biggest problem. It's really frustrating.

[John Michael Kane]

John Michael Kane, thanks. How many drum sticks do you go through? You seem to constantly want to beat on that same drum. Good grief.

 

Nothing wrong with using the same drum. Every piece of advice is not going to be mind blowing and "out of this world". Gotta be bluntly realistic here: You two had affairs and it has tainted all of the other problems you two are going through, struggling to come to a solution. Maybe it's just that time. I'm trying to be sincere here. Just think about it.

[trippi1432]

I have yes. Most of my improvment in my listening skills are as result of my research. I still have miles to go though.

 

Updown, you might be on to something there. Contempt. I'm not sure that is what I would term it but there is a MASSIVE wedge between us that doesn't seem to be going away.

 

Hi W_N - that wedge could be a little bit of contempt, or some anger...not saying that it's massive anger...but given all the two of you have been through, it's easy to let some of the emotions of the past catch up. I know you said you tried counseling and all, but have you both looked into communication classes instead of books? Perhaps even anger management classes on how to dispel that emotion when it arises during the heat of the moment?

 

The two of you have been through a lot together, and nothing is easy when it comes to love and marriage...maintaining that relationship aspect does take some work. What's important is that it is worth it to the both of you.

 

Hugs to you both!!

[What_Next]

Nothing wrong with using the same drum. Every piece of advice is not going to be mind blowing and "out of this world". Gotta be bluntly realistic here: You two had affairs and it has tainted all of the other problems you two are going through, struggling to come to a solution. Maybe it's just that time. I'm trying to be sincere here. Just think about it.

 

If you are trying to be sincere it would be a first from the posts that I have read from you. Not saying I am dismissing you outright, but projecting your own bitterness and anger onto every single post you drop you'll often get ignored. Just think about that.

 

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the suggestions thus far and I am always open to more. I fully intend on giving our relationship the best shot I am able to. This is going to be quite difficult as it has taken us a lifetime to build poor skills.

[What_Next]

I know you said you tried counseling and all, but have you both looked into communication classes instead of books? Perhaps even anger management classes on how to dispel that emotion when it arises during the heat of the moment?

 

There's an idea. I have tried myself to control my emotions, and what I say in the heat of the moment but I have not done a good job of it. Neither has my wife.

 

More grist for the mill, thanks.

[Surfer203]

Watching what you say in the heat of an argument/discussion is hard. Personally I have said some things that might be detrimental to my chances. I wish there was a way to filter the bad things and just say productive things. I think some of the bad things need to come out though.

[Owl]

Wish I had some good suggestions for you, WN.

 

If what the two of you are doing now isn't working...it's time to do something different.

 

For my wife and I...MC was what helped us rebuild our communication. In reality...that's the only value we got out of it. We knew already what we needed to do...we just needed a safe forum and some decent guidance on HOW to do it.

 

Your mileage has varied.

 

But I'd heartily suggest that if what you're doing now isn't working...getting some professional help from somewhere might not be a bad idea. Perhaps there's an IC that you're comfortable with that could help "guide" you in rebuilding communication from your side at least? Or would be willing to work with both you and your wife seperately, rather than as MC?

[fltc]

If what the two of you are doing now isn't working...it's time to do something different.

 

I should know better than to disagree with Owl, he may be the wisest bird here but WTF, WN? What can you do that's different?

 

You've spent a year trying to fix what probably can't be fixed, there's a time to admit defeat. If you keep banging your head against a wall, sooner or later you'll have a permanent headache...

 

Tell DoneWrong you're about finished and ask if she has any suggestions but remember, she's REALLY good at lying, gas-lighting and deceiving you.

 

Personal comments, no need for you to read:

Damn, for reasons I won't give, I really wanted you to fix this, that's why I've read all 6 billion pages of your thread(s) and it hurts to see you may have reached the end and, yes, I know it hurts you much more.....

[Snowflower]

Hi WN, it's funny...because I posted a similar response on a thread over in infidelity to a WS who was going through something similar. I haven't figured out how to post links like that or else I would do so.

 

What I basically said was this...my experience taught me that it is necessary, normal and healthy to reassess yourself and your relationship after a trauma like infidelity.

 

At one year out-and it seems you and your wife have had a rough go of it-it is likely getting exhausting trying to fix everything. The early enthusiasm that you might have had to some degree--"I love you-I think we can fix this!" has perhaps faded.

 

That second year of reconciliation for me and my H was treacherous. It was awful. I didn't think we would make it and we did separate for a time due to various issues. Some of it was yes, residual feelings about the affair from 2 years prior and some of it was a pile of new cr*p that had been dealt to us during that year-non relationship or affair-related.

 

What I didn't understand at that time was that I was reassessing myself and our relationship--and I told this very thing to that WS poster just yesterday. Darn, I wish I knew how to link! Do a search of my recent posts and you should be able to find it-if you wish.

 

At any rate, a year isn't all that long to make a determination about what to do about the future-especially with your extenuating circumstances. IMHO (which I know doesn't mean much ), as long as your wife is still willing, you should give it some more time.

 

I know you swore off therapy--but perhaps some individual therapy would help you gain some objectivity about your situation. I think an outside perspective is what you are seeking--and that is what you are looking for here on LS.

 

Like that other poster said, I was rooting for you and your wife to make it. I dunno, because you have always seemed to really love her. And if she loves you, then you shouldn't give up. Love like that is too important to toss away. Bleh, now I am bleating like someone who is involved in affair! :lmao:

 

Good luck!

[John Michael Kane]

If you are trying to be sincere it would be a first from the posts that I have read from you.

 

Good.

 

Not saying I am dismissing you outright, but projecting your own bitterness and anger onto every single post you drop you'll often get ignored. Just think about that.

 

No one is being bitter here except your reflection in the mirror. If my view is ignored by some it doesn't matter. But honestly the both of you brought this on yourselves, and it is time to acknowledge that maybe it's time to part ways. There's not a lot of options when trust has been broken into pieces. If you're so open as you say you are you wouldn't be so hostile. Again think about that.

[What_Next]

Snowflower, thanks for the reply. I have read and read and read until I've about went blind. I don't know what my wife has read because she doesn't say. I have read article after article and when all is said and done I am left with no answers.

 

You definitely hit on something very true, the exhausting part. I am utterly worn out. It seems constant, each and every day. There seems not be a day where we can just enjoy each others company, enjoy being around each other, there is always that elephant in the room.

 

Therapy, I'm done with that. I do not have the right personality for it, it is ineffective. I think my wife was benefiting from it, but she was unable to continue for financial and scheduling reasons.

 

Yes there is a deep love there, well at least I know that is the case from my side, although I know she does love me. It's just that this mountain which we seem to be climbing seems to go on forever.

 

John Micheal Kane, this is a public forum and as such you can post wherever you like, but your logic is lost on me. I will not banter with you, because it is pointless. I hope some day you can recover from whatever has happened to you and get beyond it. If you must lash out at others in order to do so then so be it. I wish you the best in life.

Edited June 3, 2011 by What_Next

[trippi1432]

W_N - If I may...on JMK's post, a different spin perhaps as I don't amuse myself by thinking I KNOW what someone else is thinking...but, the lack of trust is the anger in your situation. If you, or Done Wrong, cannot get over the lack of trust, you are facing a lifetime of starting over....again and again and again. How to you dispel the lack of trust so you can get out of anger?

[tojaz]

<shaking head> W_N I really resisted the urge to respond here. Why?

 

Well because YOU CAN BE AS STUBBORN AS A MULE!

 

Communication boiled down, has two components, a transmitter and a receiver and then the roles are reversed. If one is broken then information only travels one way.

 

My best advice would be to look at something that works, other areas where you can communicate, heck this forum!

 

What makes it different? What makes that work and what is between you and DoneWrong not work? What are you trying to convey? What is she trying to convey?

 

We talked a lot on your other thread and I told you there at times that it was like clubbing you over the head with a 2x4! <notice new avatar> Eventually bits and pieces got through. I wasn't emotionally invested in those conversations though, so if i felt like i was talking to a stump it didn't give me any heart ache, just carpal tunnel.

 

Heres 5 good rules to get you started http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/11/28/5-communication-lessons-learned-in-marriage-counseling/

 

TOJAZ

[You Go Girl]

I may be saying something simplistic here, yep, definitely. But sometimes it all boils down to common sense.

You have to LET IT GO.

Let the carp go. Just let it go.

What are you expecting?

You're two people, joined together in marriage, now LIVE.

Stop dwelling, festering, rehashing, rethinking.

Let it go and live.

Look at her and say to yourself--I love that woman and I don't want to lose her. There's not a petty issue in the world that's worth making her cry or feel uncomfortable.

You also have to love life on your own you know...so find that mindset. Not another person can give you that. You're joined, true, but you're still separate beings that at the end of the day.

All my post is broad and vague..but then so is yours, except for the knee-jerk reactions you both have during disagreements. That one seems to be an old habit of how to deal with disagreements, and neither of you have changed.

One person changes, the relationship changes. The old games no longer apply.

And what are your future dreams? Are you two planning the future together, and making strides to make those dreams come true?

You need a future. You already have a past. Can you see how if you focus on past baggage instead of a better future you will be setting yourselves up for failure?

When's that lease up? Time to plan a new place for the family to be together again. A new setting might be part of the rx for getting well.

[Lexygirl]

W_N, I think that good communication takes practise and alot of empathy.

 

Some suggestions:

Each time you want to speak to her... make sure she is listening. What is the best way to determine someone is listening? Well eye contact for one.

Don't continue speaking until she also stops what she is doing in order to REALLY listen.

Each time you hear your wife speak, STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING, LOOK AT HER .... and listen.

 

These days there are so many damn distractions and it's easy to just half listen but you have to make that effort if you truly want the lines of communication to 'open up'.

 

Also, make sure you take turns talking.... No one can hear what the other is saying unless they stop talking long enough to listen.

 

I'm very happy to see that you two are still trying so hard to work things out.

I agree with YGG that it might really be a good thing to just 'live' now and if things come up that you really feel compelled to talk about, regarding the past, then you might do well to warn her ahead of time and make sure there are no distractions for either one of you.

 

I am giving advice as I'm sitting here apart from my husband... but we do know how to communicate... We just have other issues.... but I digress..

 

Take care my friend.

Lexy

[John Michael Kane]

Snowflower, thanks for the reply. I have read and read and read until I've about went blind. I don't know what my wife has read because she doesn't say. I have read article after article and when all is said and done I am left with no answers.

 

You definitely hit on something very true, the exhausting part. I am utterly worn out. It seems constant, each and every day. There seems not be a day where we can just enjoy each others company, enjoy being around each other, there is always that elephant in the room.

 

Therapy, I'm done with that. I do not have the right personality for it, it is ineffective. I think my wife was benefiting from it, but she was unable to continue for financial and scheduling reasons.

 

Yes there is a deep love there, well at least I know that is the case from my side, although I know she does love me. It's just that this mountain which we seem to be climbing seems to go on forever.

 

There's no point in going around and around in circles.

 

John Micheal Kane, this is a public forum and as such you can post wherever you like, but your logic is lost on me. I will not banter with you, because it is pointless. I hope some day you can recover from whatever has happened to you and get beyond it. If you must lash out at others in order to do so then so be it. I wish you the best in life.

 

The only one being defensive here is yourself, not me. I have dealt with my issues. The question is are you going to deal with your own.